While there is a learning curve to any DCC system, learning to operate trains with one is not as difficult as it is implied on these forums. If it was, DCC would have been dead on delivery.
Most current DCC 'starter sets' can be installed in just a few minutes. If the installer already has a decoder equipped locomotive or even a DC loco with some systems, he/she will be operating in just a few minutes more.
It took me less than 10 minutes to attach my Digitrax Zephyr to an earlier DC version of my BRVRR. My first 'cornfield meet' was a true revelation. There is no turning back!
To date, my turnouts are operated with ground throws or electrically with standard Atlas slide switches. I have no need for 'accessory' decoders. I have added a DT400 throttle for portability and recently a LocoBuffer and Decoder Pro for decoder programming.
Complexity breeds problems, particularly if the operator does not understand the system he is working with or if his/her expertise is granted rather than earned or learned.
Problems of any type with model railroading is the reason forums like this one exist. It is the first place I turn when I have a problem I can not solve for myself.
Whichever system of operation or control is used, DCC or DC, the object of the hobby is to have fun. Pursue the object everyone!
My 2-cents worth, sorry.
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Oh, God, here we go again!
Let's just all get along and operate what we want, okay? Hello?
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
that happened on one of the guys in the MRR club i belong to. He has a huge (DC) basement layout. One time when we were there, we had two trains running, with a dead block in between - well except for one time when the owner of the layout forgot to flip cabs, so I had control of the one train, and the other guy operating had control of mine... that didn't work out so well...
It was just about then that I decided that when I can afford (both financially and spacially) to have a layout, I'm going to grab DCC straight away. However, I have DC right now just so I can see the locos I have run (not to mention DCC might be a little overkill for 3' of straight track).
His reason for not switching to DCC -> a lot of old (brass) locomotives that he likes to run, and the 10 miles of wire (ok, so it might not be that much...) beneath the layout that would have to be redone for DCC. Now, he did admit that if he was going to rip out this layout and build a new one, he would probably go DCC over DC, and that he was more against re-wiring everything than adding decoders to everything...
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
jfugate wrote: This is exactly why one should *prefer* DCC to straight DC on all but the smallest of layouts.Wiring is simpler, running trains is simpler ...
This is exactly why one should *prefer* DCC to straight DC on all but the smallest of layouts.
Wiring is simpler, running trains is simpler ...
I wouldn't even include small layouts as being more simple to wire in DC - unless you are talking a 4x8 oval. Your average small space switching puzzle layout (which are really popular here in the UK) has to have loads of blocks or isolated spurs - unless you only run one loco at a time! Having wired one of these types of layout for DC I know which I'd choose any day ...
... and as for running a small layout DCC makes things so much more straight forward. You can pull off some moves on DCC that would simply be impossible on DC.
The *only* disadvantage of DCC I can now see is the cost, and like all electronics thats coming down all the time.
The simpler something is the better off I am...
DCC is simpler than DC, once you get comfortable with it. My layout is 8 by 24, double track, with over 40 turnouts and crossovers, and is just one giant block. No toggle switches. There are only five toggle switches on my entire board. Three turn off the power on the three coach tracks, so the lights in the passenger cars go out. The other two turn off power to the engine storage tracks. Most of my yard switches are manual, except the inbound, and the runaround, and the engine tracks. All mainline switches are powered, and use small push buttons from Radioshack. Simplicity.
Tracklayer wrote: The simpler something is the better off I am...Tracklayer
Tracklayer
Wiring is simpler, running trains is simpler ... on my layout for example, if someone comes to visit, I just hand them a wireless throttle with the loco cab number dialed up on it, and say, "have fun!"
Try that on a basement-sized DC layout.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
" I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable. "
okay... following that logic, why do you have (or use at a library or work, or whatever) a computer and obtain access to the internet? chances are that if you grew up without DCC you grew up without the internet, so why such a luddite when it comes to enhancing your model railroad experience? worrying about throwing switches and all that nonsense for electrical "blocks" simply detracts from the fine art of yard switching. how can you think five or six moves ahead of time when you're worried about your engine losing power in the next block?? just my two cents, and i hope this doesnt seem like a nastygram...
I have a DCC layout, and I would never go back.
Not long ago, I had a 25 car coal train stall on the grade, at the back of the layout. I was just ready to get on my knees and crawl under the layout, to give it a shove. Then I remembered DCC. I just sent another loco around to the other side of the layout, came up behind the stalled coal train, and gave it a shove up the hill. Try that with DC.
My layout is 24 feet long, with a double track, twice around, mainline. It's great to be able to run several trains, at the same time, at different speeds, blowing the horn on each loco separately. I have four crossovers between the mains, at various places on the layout. I can start two trains going, then run a third train, using two 24 car passing sidings. Try that with DC. And no switch flipping go'in on. I'm not into switch flipping.
My passenger trains turn on the bell as they approach the station platform. Freight trains activate the bell when passing through the passenger platforms, just like the real trains. Can't do that with DC.
If you can't run two or three trains at the same time, you probably can't walk and chew gum at the same time either.
Having used DC way back when we used car batteries, I can relate to the change to DCC.
My particular case was that a neighbor who is a fabulus scenery guy has not a clue to which toggle to flip for anything.
After changing to DCC the neighbor is now running trains.
Of course as fate would have it he developed Parkinsons so not able to participate.
I just realized there is not a spell check on this page. Maybe DCC can cure that!
Clifsfrr
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote:For throwing switches I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer. On the same layout anything from totally manual, to toggles, to DCC controlled might be appropriate.
I don't think that there is a "one size fits all" anything in model railroading. Locations, railroad, scenery construction, track gauge, scale, operation, siwtch operation, layout size etc. are all variables that we choose. None of them are "one size fits all" and the same goes for systems for controlling trains.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
When I was a kid we ran DC and it was enjoyable then again thats all they had, but as for the recent yrs when we (dad and I got back into it) we went DCC right away. Now we upgraded to a better systems more and mor elocomotives are becoming Decoderized. When I started the new layout I wanted something more hand son then use the buttons on the throttle to control everything so I planned on using tortises with DPDT switches to control them. DCC is nice in some area but when it comes to throwing a switch lets just say i have a childish attitude and want to do it. The sound of a switch flipping makes me feel well alive and not like a zombie as stated. You can always combine the new with the old in some areas but be careful so you dont short anything out.
tangerine-jack wrote: I went to the Chrysler Museum of Art and was very impressed by what I saw. I went to the arts and crafts store and bought some paint and canvas. So why don't my paintings look like what I saw in the museum? I used the same materials, so I should have the same results, right?The same argument goes for DCC vs DC and this is in every scale. Either system run by a pro will look easy; both will be a handful if you don't have a clue. I use both ways on my garden RR as well as battery RC, either system gets a train down the line. DCC has advantages for multiple runs, DC is technologically simpler. I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable. Apples to oranges, both taste good.
I went to the Chrysler Museum of Art and was very impressed by what I saw. I went to the arts and crafts store and bought some paint and canvas. So why don't my paintings look like what I saw in the museum? I used the same materials, so I should have the same results, right?
The same argument goes for DCC vs DC and this is in every scale. Either system run by a pro will look easy; both will be a handful if you don't have a clue. I use both ways on my garden RR as well as battery RC, either system gets a train down the line. DCC has advantages for multiple runs, DC is technologically simpler. I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable.
Apples to oranges, both taste good.
The bold line in true, to a point. The technology of DC is simpler. The implementation (except in a very simple case) with DCC is simpler (in my opinion).
Tracklayer wrote:The simpler something is the better off I am...Tracklayer
Tracklayer,
True. But I've seen DC layouts that appeared to me more complex that using DCC. One could just as equally argue that DCC isn't that complex either.
Again, it's entirely your choice...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Big Beast wrote:A few days ago I watched a guy run a DCC train on a club layout. I watched him walk around following the train. I then looked over at the other guy working the yard with DC hearing the clicking from the switches turning blocks on and off flipping switches. I turned back to look at the guy with the DCC. As I watched I realised it wasnt for me. The guy working the yard looked like some tower dispatcher directing the yard while the guy with the (remote control ) looked like a zombie. <>
A few days ago I watched a guy run a DCC train on a club layout. I watched him walk around following the train. I then looked over at the other guy working the yard with DC hearing the clicking from the switches turning blocks on and off flipping switches. I turned back to look at the guy with the DCC. As I watched I realised it wasnt for me. The guy working the yard looked like some tower dispatcher directing the yard while the guy with the (remote control ) looked like a zombie.
<>
Well as someone pointed out, it sounds like the real point is you'd rather have a layout where you ran a yard, rather than ran a road train. In DC or DCC, the guy running a mainline train isn't going to be as busy as a yard guy.
As far as the yard guy looking like a tower operator, he may have looked that way, but he wasn't acting like one. Real tower operators control turnouts, not power blocks. A yard in DCC would operate much more like the real one - you could run several engines doing different switching tasks at once, have a mainline train come thru the yard (or arrive or depart) all without having to worry about going a few inches too far into the next block and losing control of your engine (which usually ends up with the engineer picking up his engine and moving it back to the correct block...something that rarely happens in the prototype.)
Tracklayer wrote: To each their own... I'm not really a DCC person either, though I own one DCC steam loco that I like to run once in a while, but seriously doubt I'll ever be into it anymore than that. The simpler something is the better off I am...Tracklayer
To each their own... I'm not really a DCC person either, though I own one DCC steam loco that I like to run once in a while, but seriously doubt I'll ever be into it anymore than that. The simpler something is the better off I am...
If your layout gets very big, that means you will be wanting DCC. The DC is simpler thing is a fallacy, in my opinion.
Big Beast wrote:A few days ago I watched a guy run a DCC train on a club layout. I watched him walk around following the train. I then looked over at the other guy working the yard with DC hearing the clicking from the switches turning blocks on and off flipping switches. I turned back to look at the guy with the DCC. As I watched I realised it wasnt for me. The guy working the yard looked like some tower dispatcher directing the yard while the guy with the (remote control ) looked like a zombie.
Ya know, BB, I used to think the same thing about cruise control. I didn't want it or have anything to do with it because I thought it would make me lazy behind the wheel. Well...I actually found the opposite to be true.
Cruise control on the highway helps make me more alert and more relaxed because I don't have to constantly look down at the speedometer to see how fast I'm going. Since my foot isn't on the gas the whole time, I can actually stretch my leg out so that I'm more comfortable. (That's nice, since I'm 6'-4") And, I can glance around and enjoy the sights more and feel more refreshed at the end of a journey.
From the outside, cruise control wasn't appealing...until I got behind the wheel and tried it myself. BB, before you dismiss something completely, give it a try first before you come to any steadfast conclusions. You might find that the "zombie" running on the main was able to concentrate on other things come up that he wouldn't have if he were turning blocks on and off.
But, it's entirely your choice...
jeffrey-wimberly wrote:DC for yard operations is fine - until you want to operate two locos on the same block at the same time doing different jobs. IMPOSSIBLE! You can do this with DCC with no problem.
Depends on the size of the yard. I have seen some double ended yards in DC that have a switcher assembling/breaking down Westbounds and another assembling/breaking down eastbounds with little or no "toggle flipping."
More difficult but not impossible.
Besides the obvious DCC advantage of having independent control of each loco, so I am running the locos instead of having to "control the trackwork", let's not forget with DCC you can individually tune *each* loco's performance.
For each loco I can set the starting voltage, mid throttle voltage and top throttle voltage. I can also add in a kick start voltage spike to get the loco moving from a standing start more dependably, I can add some momentum appropriate for that specific locomotive, with a different setting for acceleration and deceleration. I can tune the speed for forward and reverse in case the loco happens to run faster one direction than the other.
You can't easily do most of the above on straight DC. What you can do to tune a given loco in straight DC will involve fiddling with the mechanism, and it's difficult to get precise results.
For example, with DCC I can tune a yard goat to have a really nice slow end with just a touch of momentum. I can tune a road engine to have a more consistent speed throughout, and give it more momentum to simulate pulling a heavy train. And if I have two locos I want to consist together, I can make their behavior simular to they run together reasonably well, where that would be impossible on straight DC.
cmrproducts wrote: And I can take any new visitor to my layout and in 5 minutes have them instructed how to run an engine and are able to take a train out on the line. No having to remember what toggle controls what track.
Same on my DC layout. They simply need to ask the dispatcher for clearance, which is the same thing that they would have to do if it were DCC. The only toggles that the engineers on my layout throw is the one on the throttle to reverse direction.
I went to my first show 2 years ago. Everyone was telling me the Digitrax system was the ONLY way to go. (just like the Mac people telling me Microsoft would go bust back in high school) There was a Digitrax "expert" there with a small layout. He had everything hooked through the Digitrax system. Trains, turnouts, signals. All run through a computer. I watched this guy off and on for 4 hours. He couldn't get ANYTHING to work. I didn't see the loco even move an inch, and he was supposed to be an expert with this stuff.
With that said, I will still be buying a DCC system just to run my trains. I probably WON'T be buying a Digitrax system. I just want to run a few trains, not become a programmer. It does not appear to be as simple as the companies make it out to be.
If you like flipping toggle switches better than running the engine then DC is the way to go!
But I would much rather run the engine and not have to worry if I had the track power on the track I was planning on using.
The real railroaders do not worry if there is track power on or not so I don't what to have to either.
And I can take any new visitor to my layout and in 5 minutes have them instructed how to run an engine and are able to take a train out on the line. No having to remember what toggle controls what track. That is worth more to me than anything, a new visitor to my layout having a ball!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
Big Beast wrote: A few days ago I watched a guy run a DCC train on a club layout. I watched him walk around following the train. I then looked over at the other guy working the yard with DC hearing the clicking from the switches turning blocks on and off flipping switches. I turned back to look at the guy with the DCC. As I watched I realised it wasnt for me. The guy working the yard looked like some tower dispatcher directing the yard while the guy with the (remote control ) looked like a zombie. Isn't it fortunate then that you don't have to buy DCC, run DCC, or evern look at it.Bob
Isn't it fortunate then that you don't have to buy DCC, run DCC, or evern look at it.
Bob
Let's see. There was a guy running a switcher in a yard, and a guy running a train out on the main line. I don't care who's running DC, who's running DCC or who's running wooden Brios with the good old 0-5-0. The guy running the switcher in the yard is going to be busier, like the engineer of a real yard engine, and the road engine guy will be, by comparison, not doing much more than watch mileposts go by. It's what they were doing, not how they were doing it, which makes up most of the difference.
If you've got 1 engine, then it doesn't matter operationally whether you're running DC or DCC. You can have 1 block, and you don't have to worry about other engines coming into it. As soon as you're sharing the space, though, then DCC starts to show its advantages. Also, a large club layout can have a lot of blocks, which allows for more independent train control under DC, but those of us with smaller home layouts don't have the luxury, realistically, of being able to block a layout like a large club.
And for those who say DCC is the greatest thing since sliced bread? Well, honestly, what do you see in sliced bread, anyway? Scratch-built bread is better in my book, even if I do have to cut it myself.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Big Beast wrote:A few days ago I watched a guy run a DCC train on a club layout. I watched him walk around following the train. I then looked over at the other guy working the yard with DC hearing the clicking from the switches turning blocks on and off flipping switches. I turned back to look at the guy with the DCC. ... The guy working the yard looked like some tower dispatcher directing the yard while the guy with the (remote control ) looked like a zombie.