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Not very impressed with DCC

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Posted by el-capitan on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 11:46 AM
 SunsetLimited wrote:

Good, stick with your cheeseball DC, makes one less person buying decoders so there is more for us in the computer age to use in our gear. Plus while both your hands are busy flipping toggles, my free hand is kicking back with a cold beer.

Please, at least come over to my house and operate my layout before you call my operating system cheesball. You are welcome at any time.

From my experience people who make ignorant posts like this one have little or no experience, skills or talent and only come on here to criticize others.

Also, if you are so far into the computer age, please post a link to your website or photo site so we can view your model railroad.

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Posted by ShadowNix on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 11:33 AM

Ok, everyone, lets keep this civil.  Peeps are starting to flame/rant.... Really, this is a personal choice.  I love the discussion, but lets not get brutal.  Both DC and DCC have advantages...and disadvantages.

Brian

"That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger!"
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Posted by SunsetLimited on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 11:17 AM
 Midnight Railroader wrote:
 dave 1194 wrote:

" I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable. "

okay... following that logic, why do you have (or use at a library or work, or whatever) a computer and obtain access to the internet? chances are that if you grew up without DCC you grew up without the internet, so why such a luddite when it comes to enhancing your model railroad experience? worrying about throwing switches and all that nonsense for electrical "blocks" simply detracts from the fine art of yard switching. how can you think five or six moves ahead of time when you're worried about your engine losing power in the next block?? just my two cents, and i hope this doesnt seem like a nastygram... 

 

After reading all the fine posts such as this one enumerating the reasons why I simply must switch to DCC (as if the posters would ever know, given the fact they've never been in my basement), I just wanted you to know that I would use DCC, except for one important reason:

I don't want to.

Thanks for all your forceful input, though.

 

Good, stick with your cheeseball DC, makes one less person buying decoders so there is more for us in the computer age to use in our gear. Plus while both your hands are busy flipping toggles, my free hand is kicking back with a cold beer.

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Posted by tstage on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:38 AM

 Midnight Railroader wrote:
After reading all the fine posts such as this one enumerating the reasons why I simply must switch to DCC (as if the posters would ever know, given the fact they've never been in my basement), I just wanted you to know that I would use DCC, except for one important reason:


I don't want to.

Midnight,

And that is your perogative...Smile [:)]

Tom 

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:34 AM
 Midnight Railroader wrote:
 dave 1194 wrote:

" I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable. "

okay... following that logic, why do you have (or use at a library or work, or whatever) a computer and obtain access to the internet? chances are that if you grew up without DCC you grew up without the internet, so why such a luddite when it comes to enhancing your model railroad experience? worrying about throwing switches and all that nonsense for electrical "blocks" simply detracts from the fine art of yard switching. how can you think five or six moves ahead of time when you're worried about your engine losing power in the next block?? just my two cents, and i hope this doesnt seem like a nastygram... 

 

After reading all the fine posts such as this one enumerating the reasons why I simply must switch to DCC (as if the posters would ever know, given the fact they've never been in my basement), I just wanted you to know that I would use DCC, except for one important reason:

I don't want to.

Thanks for all your forceful input, though.

 

What simply amazes me is how we operated for years without DCC..My goodness we couldn't run multiple trains,couldn't  work the yard..I guess  all of the early operation thinkers was wrong headed because they didn't have DCC to operate with.

What a load of arrogant(ignorant?)  crap some  DCC users will use to wave their silly DCC flag!

Larry

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Posted by Midnight Railroader on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 8:54 AM
 dave 1194 wrote:

" I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable. "

okay... following that logic, why do you have (or use at a library or work, or whatever) a computer and obtain access to the internet? chances are that if you grew up without DCC you grew up without the internet, so why such a luddite when it comes to enhancing your model railroad experience? worrying about throwing switches and all that nonsense for electrical "blocks" simply detracts from the fine art of yard switching. how can you think five or six moves ahead of time when you're worried about your engine losing power in the next block?? just my two cents, and i hope this doesnt seem like a nastygram... 

 

After reading all the fine posts such as this one enumerating the reasons why I simply must switch to DCC (as if the posters would ever know, given the fact they've never been in my basement), I just wanted you to know that I would use DCC, except for one important reason:

I don't want to.

Thanks for all your forceful input, though.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 8:14 AM

Antonio,I may get ream for this if its read by a club member..Anyway..There is a lot of older locomotives on the layout that whines(Tenshodo),growls,(Hobbytown and older steam locomotives including Varney,Penn-Line and of course brass steamers.

We believe that is enough racket for our ears to endure but,would never ever complain to the owners of those locomotives after all they have their rights as club members and the majority of us older guys doesn't mind after all we are use to those locomotives having coming up through the hobby in those years..

We have also thought of the rights of those members that wanted sound so,like all things sound was put to the vote and was defeated by a 37-10 vote.I suspect as more DC locomotives come with sound we will need to reopen the matter of sound and like always the members will have their say and vote.

 

Larry

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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:40 AM

Understood Brakie,

However, I must degree with the view that sound would cause a racket.

It baffles me how various modelers have made similar claims.................

As has been basically stated so many times before:  whether it's 5 locomotives or 50 locomotives...........................

If everyone keeps the sound level turned down to a low or very low volume level then sound can be an enjoyable feature that "accents" a modeling session much like a gourmet sauce does to an Italian Pasta meal. Dinner [dinner]

A rule of thumb for sound volume that that seems to work well is that other than "faintly" audible whistles or horns, sound equipped units (diesel or steam) should be barely audible once they're more than 15ft. linear distance from the modeler. 

Just as in real life, once prototype diesel locomotives pass you at a grade crossing, the prime mover sounds fade into the distance and the horn is a distant echo.    

A club that runs sound equipped units should not have a problem at all if the membership votes to stick with the "low volume" rule.   Many of us have very nice home stereo systems with powerful amplifiers, yet it's likely that, with few exceptions, we don't BLAST them at full volume.

These are just my thoughts but I notice that a lot of modelers share similar views because sound has become so popular.  

 

 

 

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Posted by el-capitan on Monday, April 23, 2007 10:24 AM
 selector wrote:

Yes, that is true.  Or, how about this: on the same stretch of contiguous track (powered track between gaps), you have two locomotives, one parked, the other nudges slowly up to the rear coupler of the first, couples, and then you form a nearly perfect MU digitally by pressing a few buttons.  Oh, one of the locos is a Challenger with 69" drivers, the other is a 4-8-4 variant with 80" drivers. 

Try doing that in DC.

Nobody is contending that DCC provides better multi-train operation.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Monday, April 23, 2007 8:07 AM
 AntonioFP45 wrote:

Brakie,

You're saying that DCC won't be the club's "aspirin" or won't make the operating situation any better?  And there are 40 guys that agree.......

O.K, but will it not make overall operations easier?  Add to that it's likely that some of your members have never tried the special lighting effects or sound through DCC.  Is it possible that some of them may enjoy controlling their locos headlights, Mars/Gyra lights, and sounds?

Like the group I belonged to, they might have a change of heart once they try it.  We went "Ga-Ga!" That's what happened at my club's 20 year old layout once the switch was made.  No one wants to go back...including the members that were originally anti-dcc.  Membership also increased, rather quickly.

Respectfully, to each his own and DC is fine, but it just makes me wonder though if your membership's resistence to the idea is more out of "don't shake the status quo" and "If it's not broken, don't try to fix it" type of mood.Shy [8)]

 

Antonio,First every member is well aware what DCC can do after all we are not cave men coming out of the cave for the first time..

We see NO real advantage to DCC on the club's layout as far as operation.Also we decided not to have sound due to the racket it would cause.Imagine 20-30 locomotives on the layout blowing horns,the prime mover sound etc.Not a very pleasant thought is it?

Then as a CLUB we must take in other considerations such as members with older brass steam locomotives,older brass diesels and other not so DCC friendly locomotives such as old Penn-Line,Hobbytown and Varney many still have brass wheels.

We looked at the overall cost for the members throttles,decoders,etc and then we put the REAL facts and figures base on MRSP and DISCOUNT prices before the membership and it was open for discussion and carried forward to the next months meeting for thought and more discussion.

At the third meeting the vote was taken and DCC was defeated by a 40-7 margin based on the presented facts,discussion and that it would not help operation.The 7 pro DCC'ers kept bringing the subject up till it was permanently tabled by popular vote..

As far as membership growth we have 47 members and 2 probationary members that recently joined.We have no problems getting and keeping  new members because we are a DC layout..Of course in this area the closest DCC club is in Sandusky or Lima.Then there that small group in Tiffin that uses DCC but,its not a club.

 

Larry

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Posted by selector on Monday, April 23, 2007 1:30 AM

Yes, that is true.  Or, how about this: on the same stretch of contiguous track (powered track between gaps), you have two locomotives, one parked, the other nudges slowly up to the rear coupler of the first, couples, and then you form a nearly perfect MU digitally by pressing a few buttons.  Oh, one of the locos is a Challenger with 69" drivers, the other is a 4-8-4 variant with 80" drivers. 

Try doing that in DC.

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Posted by tstage on Sunday, April 22, 2007 9:56 PM
 skerber wrote:

I thought about switching to DCC, but as soon as I saw sound locomotives in DC--I have no desire to switch to DCC.  Maybe someday way down the road--like 20 years--I will switch to whatever is the new technology at that point.

skerber,

Switching to DCC just for sound would not be a wise reason for doing so.  However (as Crandell likes to put it), if you want your locomotives to be able to "kiss" one another ANYWHERE on the same track, DCC is the way to go.

Tom

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Posted by BRAKIE on Sunday, April 22, 2007 9:45 PM

Randy,It would be all or nothing with a possible wiring rebuild.While it sounds complex its not.Detection for the signals is done by locomotive and end car.The end car has its axle painted with  resistance paint.Power routing is done by the DS through block toggle switches for track polarity.Left equals West bound while Right equals East bound.We have arrows above each block to show the DS which way the train is heading.If the arrow is white on the right its a Eastbound..White on the left a Westbound.

We use walk around control and the signals tells the engineer what to expect at the next signal.We have signals from clear to slow clear and Medium-Approach Slow-used for yard entrance.

Dispatching is not very complicated but,one needs trained under a experience DS.

We have 2 dispatchers.One for the main line and one for Newark Sub.

Larry

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Posted by rrinker on Sunday, April 22, 2007 8:57 PM

 Exactly what I've been thinking all along, Antonio. No, DCC will not fix an operational bottleneck caused by track arrangement and/or traffic flow in the operating scheme, but it surely makes operation easier. Brakie's club seems to have some sort of route cab control or other scheme that does not require the engineer to handle the block/cab assignments, which means under DCC they should see minimal if any change. The dispatcher(s) though, would see their role change to JUST lining routes on the CTC panel. There is apparantly a full signalling system involved, so granted a move to DCC would not be cheap. Since the engineers do not assign cabs to blocks I am assuming the signal system is highly integrated with the control system, thus this would not be a situation where the DC cabs could be disconnected and DCC connected in its place, leaving the signal system until later to upgrade, if required. Sounds like with Brakie's club it would have to be all or nothing.

 

                                        --Randy


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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:38 PM

Brakie,

You're saying that DCC won't be the club's "aspirin" or won't make the operating situation any better?  And there are 40 guys that agree.......

O.K, but will it not make overall operations easier?  Add to that it's likely that some of your members have never tried the special lighting effects or sound through DCC.  Is it possible that some of them may enjoy controlling their locos headlights, Mars/Gyra lights, and sounds?

Like the group I belonged to, they might have a change of heart once they try it.  We went "Ga-Ga!" That's what happened at my club's 20 year old layout once the switch was made.  No one wants to go back...including the members that were originally anti-dcc.  Membership also increased, rather quickly.

Respectfully, to each his own and DC is fine, but it just makes me wonder though if your membership's resistence to the idea is more out of "don't shake the status quo" and "If it's not broken, don't try to fix it" type of mood.Shy [8)]

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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Posted by BRAKIE on Sunday, April 22, 2007 8:32 AM
 rrinker wrote:
 BRAKIE wrote:

Randy,We use a real US&S board..I am not to sure what railroad but,believe it to be a either old NYC or Erie board.

It looks like this but,longer:

http://www.cliftonforgediv.com/signals.htm

All our road engineers need to do is run their train and obey the block signals.

 So you've attached a lot of extra circuitry to route the cabs according to the cleared routes? Or what? Do you use route cab control? I have a lot of the odl issues of MR where Linn Westcott explained various cab control systems and presented circuits for them - and wow was that one complex. Easy for the engineer to run a train, sure - but there's a huge penalty in complexity. Yes it can be argued that the microcontroller inside a DCC command station is far more complex than any number of miles of wire and relays and switches, but like I said, you cna effectively treat the DCC system as a black box, you do NOT need to know the detaisl of how it works inside to connect it up and use it. But you can't just go out and buy a box and connect an input and and output and make a route cab control system.

 

                                    --Randy

 

Randy,The joy of running trains,making meets with 1 or more trains makes it worth while.

Let me repeat myself..In the club's position DCC won't even be a aspirin to ease the DS's headache when it comes to operation and I know 42 guys who will fully agree.

Larry

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Posted by BRAKIE on Sunday, April 22, 2007 8:15 AM
 wm3798 wrote:

So Brakie, what you're saying is along the same lines as what I said... It doesn't matter what control system you're using if your layout is poorly designed.

Lee 

Lee,It was DESIGN that way..Even real railroads have bottle neck spots where trains need to wait for a slot to open before they can proceed..This may be alien to many but,we wanted to emulate prototypical operations as realistically as possible.While running a local I have waited at West Dayton for several train to pass before I could reenter the main from West Dayton Industrial Park.That was about 20 minute (real time) wait..

So no,the layout is not poorly design as it does exactly what it was designed to do-emulate prototypical operation on a single track main line with sub division traffic joining the main.

Larry

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Posted by el-capitan on Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:52 AM

 wm3798 wrote:
Not being able to see the engine in your staging yard is more a function of bad layout design than your control system.

 So anybody with a hidden storage yard has a poorly designed layout? This is laughable.

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Posted by skerber on Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:06 AM

I thought about switching to DCC, but as soon as I saw sound locomotives in DC--I have no desire to switch to DCC.  Maybe someday way down the road--like 20 years--I will switch to whatever is the new technology at that point.

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Posted by ngartshore350 on Sunday, April 22, 2007 4:01 AM

Hi NeO6874 & Driline!

Thanks for the advice, no not looking for excuses just don't want to spend more time playing with wires to change to DCC. If it as easy as they say that is great with a little mods for the Turntable and loop!! Just being cautious, I have the plywood plains at the moment and the last thing I need is to re-wiring the layout! I'm sooooooooo tempted but still a little cautious.

Currently I'm adding signaling with detectors so there is a little wiring going on but I have almost completed the backdrops with the exception of clouds and I'd like to move on, but if DCC requires wiring mods it is much easier now before I start balasting track!

Regards,

 Nige.

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Posted by NeO6874 on Saturday, April 21, 2007 11:06 PM
 ngartshore350 wrote:

Hi all,

Seems like we have a few DCC brains here so I have a few questions from a person sitting on the fence, contemplating the jump from DC to DCC.

Question 1: I see an article in May 07 MRR about modifying points for DCC, do I need to do this, some of you have described the conversion as just plugging in the new DCC unit? I have used insulfrog points by peco. I think I have about 60 points, I really don't want to be pulling these all up to modify each one!Confused [%-)]

Question 2: The reversing loop, I have a loop but it goes from one main line to another but it does reverse the direction, do I need a reversing loop module still?!Confused [%-)]

Question 3: lighting, I would need to rewire all the lights in the locomotives to the Decoder on my older locos?! Do I need different bulbs because of this?!

Question 4: On some of the really old locomotives some tend to use the direct contact of the wheels to one side of the motor as part of the chassis, how do you wire a decoder in that situation?

Question 5: Turntables, the voltage changes direction in DC depending on the side that comes into contact with the rail, how do you overcome that problem?!

I finished the wiring not too long ago and it is working fine, I just don't want to go backwards and have to pull up points to cut power connectors, and rewire too many areas and find some locos impossible to run in DCC. I read an article recently that suggested leaving the control panel in, as it allowed any short circuits to be found more easily by isolating sections but otherwise just turn all the switches on and have fun!

Hope there weren't too many questions, these are a few that are preventing me making leap, I program Programmable Logic Controllers to Operate Coal Mines for my work, the programming side really doesn't phase me at all!

Regards,

Nigel

 Nigel,

check out www.wiringfordcc.com for in-depth answers.

  1. Yes & no.  I think the fix for turnouts/points is for the electrofrog type of turnout, but insulfrog turnouts might still need some work (extra feesers so that you don't lose power).
  2. As long as your "loop" doesnt make it so that a train can pass over the SAME section of track going in the opposite direction.  So if you have an oval of track, the train will always be going the same way (CW or CCW), but if you have a turnout somewhere that makes a teardrop shape (ie the Diverging route is DIRECTLY CONNECTED to the Through route) you will need either a DPDT switch to flip polarity or an auto-reversing unit.
  3. Yes, provided you want to control them with F0 (or F1, or whatever the light on/off function is).  You can eitheryse 12v bulbs (careful, these will probably melt plastic parts), or LEDs (you'll need to put a ~1k Ohm resistor in series with the LED and one of the decoder leads so you don't burn out the LED)
  4. You have to isolate the motor.  I just did this on a few Mantua locomotives.  It was a straightforward process, all I did was remove the motor, file down the mounting spacer so the motor wouldn't end up too high, glued .010" styrene strip to the rear mounting spacer and anything else the motor *might* come in contact with, and then sandwiched a 22awg "jumper" between the front mounting spacer and the styrene - It's kept in place by the screw.  I then re-attached the motor using a Kadee nylon screw.  Before connecting the jumper wire to the motor brush lead, I made sure that the motor did not run by setting it onto a test track and applying power.
  5. A Turntable is a reversing loop, it requires a DPDT or auto-reverser as above.

 

-Dan

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Posted by Driline on Saturday, April 21, 2007 10:25 PM
 ngartshore350 wrote:

Hi all,

Seems like we have a few DCC brains here so I have a few questions from a person sitting on the fence, contemplating the jump from DC to DCC.

Question 1: I see an article in May 07 MRR about modifying points for DCC, do I need to do this, some of you have described the conversion as just plugging in the new DCC unit? I have used insulfrog points by peco. I think I have about 60 points, I really don't want to be pulling these all up to modify each one!Confused [%-)]

Question 2: The reversing loop, I have a loop but it goes from one main line to another but it does reverse the direction, do I need a reversing loop module still?!Confused [%-)]

Question 3: lighting, I would need to rewire all the lights in the locomotives to the Decoder on my older locos?! Do I need different bulbs because of this?!

Question 4: On some of the really old locomotives some tend to use the direct contact of the wheels to one side of the motor as part of the chassis, how do you wire a decoder in that situation?

Question 5: Turntables, the voltage changes direction in DC depending on the side that comes into contact with the rail, how do you overcome that problem?!

I finished the wiring not too long ago and it is working fine, I just don't want to go backwards and have to pull up points to cut power connectors, and rewire too many areas and find some locos impossible to run in DCC. I read an article recently that suggested leaving the control panel in, as it allowed any short circuits to be found more easily by isolating sections but otherwise just turn all the switches on and have fun!

Hope there weren't too many questions, these are a few that are preventing me making leap, I program Programmable Logic Controllers to Operate Coal Mines for my work, the programming side really doesn't phase me at all!

Regards,

Nigel

It sounds to me that you have a good operating DC layout and are finding excuses not to go DCC. Its OK......Smile [:)]....you don't have to. If you are comfortable and happy with your existing layout then don't. I'm sure you know the advantages of DCC and apparently they are not important to you. Again....no big deal. The DCC police arn't going to take you to jailBig Smile [:D]

I'm not going to answer each of your questions as I'm sure someone else will with better instructions than me will do so.

Suffice to say all of your questions can be addressed with little to no modification to go DCC.

Modeling the Davenport Rock Island & Northwestern 1995 in HO
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Posted by ngartshore350 on Saturday, April 21, 2007 10:10 PM

Hi all,

Seems like we have a few DCC brains here so I have a few questions from a person sitting on the fence, contemplating the jump from DC to DCC.

Question 1: I see an article in May 07 MRR about modifying points for DCC, do I need to do this, some of you have described the conversion as just plugging in the new DCC unit? I have used insulfrog points by peco. I think I have about 60 points, I really don't want to be pulling these all up to modify each one!Confused [%-)]

Question 2: The reversing loop, I have a loop but it goes from one main line to another but it does reverse the direction, do I need a reversing loop module still?!Confused [%-)]

Question 3: lighting, I would need to rewire all the lights in the locomotives to the Decoder on my older locos?! Do I need different bulbs because of this?!

Question 4: On some of the really old locomotives some tend to use the direct contact of the wheels to one side of the motor as part of the chassis, how do you wire a decoder in that situation?

Question 5: Turntables, the voltage changes direction in DC depending on the side that comes into contact with the rail, how do you overcome that problem?!

I finished the wiring not too long ago and it is working fine, I just don't want to go backwards and have to pull up points to cut power connectors, and rewire too many areas and find some locos impossible to run in DCC. I read an article recently that suggested leaving the control panel in, as it allowed any short circuits to be found more easily by isolating sections but otherwise just turn all the switches on and have fun!

Hope there weren't too many questions, these are a few that are preventing me making leap, I program Programmable Logic Controllers to Operate Coal Mines for my work, the programming side really doesn't phase me at all!

Regards,

Nigel

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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Saturday, April 21, 2007 9:27 PM
 wctransfer wrote:

May I ask a few Qs?

How easy is it to install decoders in things? What tools do you need?

If I am to get DCC, all I want it for is to have my Blue Box athearn run side by side with my new Kato unit. I dont need any of this or that, just to be able to run a 4 unit consist with an Atlas,P2k,Athearn, and a Kato and not worry about problems with speed. Can anyone here give me a link to a starter kit with just the necessities?

Alec

Alec,

This may be helpful to you.  Click or type in this link:

http://litchfieldstation.com/lobby/u_what.htm

 

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  • From: Reading, PA
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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, April 21, 2007 9:01 PM
 BRAKIE wrote:

Randy,We use a real US&S board..I am not to sure what railroad but,believe it to be a either old NYC or Erie board.

It looks like this but,longer:

http://www.cliftonforgediv.com/signals.htm

All our road engineers need to do is run their train and obey the block signals.

 So you've attached a lot of extra circuitry to route the cabs according to the cleared routes? Or what? Do you use route cab control? I have a lot of the odl issues of MR where Linn Westcott explained various cab control systems and presented circuits for them - and wow was that one complex. Easy for the engineer to run a train, sure - but there's a huge penalty in complexity. Yes it can be argued that the microcontroller inside a DCC command station is far more complex than any number of miles of wire and relays and switches, but like I said, you cna effectively treat the DCC system as a black box, you do NOT need to know the detaisl of how it works inside to connect it up and use it. But you can't just go out and buy a box and connect an input and and output and make a route cab control system.

 

                                    --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: New Brighton, Minnesota
  • 1,493 posts
Posted by wctransfer on Saturday, April 21, 2007 8:49 PM

May I ask a few Qs?

How easy is it to install decoders in things? What tools do you need?

If I am to get DCC, all I want it for is to have my Blue Box athearn run side by side with my new Kato unit. I dont need any of this or that, just to be able to run a 4 unit consist with an Atlas,P2k,Athearn, and a Kato and not worry about problems with speed. Can anyone here give me a link to a starter kit with just the necessities?

Alec

Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: On the Banks of the Great Choptank
  • 2,916 posts
Posted by wm3798 on Saturday, April 21, 2007 7:24 PM

So Brakie, what you're saying is along the same lines as what I said... It doesn't matter what control system you're using if your layout is poorly designed.

I dare say that DCC does offer a bit more flexibility, though.  I had rigged my layout for simple DC with a couple of blocks to hold trains before I bought my MRC Prodigy Advance.  It was a pain, because in some instances I would have to back a train up, or use the 0-5-0 to fix a bottleneck.  With the DCC, and without changing the track plan at all, I can re-route trains anywhere I want to avoid problems. 

Lee 

Route of the Alpha Jets  www.wmrywesternlines.net

  • Member since
    October 2001
  • From: OH
  • 17,574 posts
Posted by BRAKIE on Saturday, April 21, 2007 4:38 PM

Randy,We use a real US&S board..I am not to sure what railroad but,believe it to be a either old NYC or Erie board.

It looks like this but,longer:

http://www.cliftonforgediv.com/signals.htm

All our road engineers need to do is run their train and obey the block signals.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Saturday, April 21, 2007 3:17 PM

 BRAKIE wrote:
Randy,You have no idea how a real CTC board works..DC CTC comes the closest.

 

 Oh indeed I do know how a real CTC board works, both the classic US&S types and the modern computer versions. DC power routing is NOTHING like lining routes with CTC, although I suppose you could configure the hardware so that it sets the proper cab to the block as you line the routes. But the hardware to accomplish this would make DCC look like a simple battery and light bulb circuit in comparison. I recommend you take a look at JMRI and Railroad and Company and see what can be done in DCC. No where on a real railroad does the DS connect the blue cab to block 5 and the red cab to block 6. With DCC, not having to worry abotu cab/block assignmetns means you actually CAN make realistic interlockings because like the real railroad all you need to worry about is the detection and signals.

 With software like JMRI or RR&Co, you can build either a classic type machine or duplicate the modern computer screen types. That really has nothign to do with DC vs DCC, but if you then run DC power, SOMEONE is goign to have the task of assigning cabs to blocks so the trains can make the meets and passes lined by the dispatcher.

 Looking ahead of your train and moving a multi-position rotary switch to connect your cab to the next block isn't realistic railroading.

 

                                         --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    October 2001
  • From: OH
  • 17,574 posts
Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, April 20, 2007 11:09 PM
 jfugate wrote:
 rrinker wrote:

One comment: What if there was a second train coming at that lone operater out onthe main? Now someone has to take a siding to let the other guy past. With DCC, someone (maybe a tower operator or a CTC dispatcher) lines the turnouts and the two engineers simply run their trains. With DC, someone has to do a bunch of toggle flipping to direct power, which is NOT in the least bit prototypical (unless this is a model of an electrified railroad, in which case it's somewhat prototypical to direct power to layotu sections). That so-called 'zombie' was being a locomotive ENGINEER. Not a towerman, not a dispatcher, not a power director.Withotu some rather complex hardware, you can't just 'run your train' with DC, you or someone has to worry about setting the block power to your cab as you run along. There is no such thing in DCC. Internally DCC might be rather complex, but liek many other appliances we use, it can be treated as a black box. You do NOT need to understand what's happening indise the box to be able to effectively use it. Whereas with a DC cab control setup, you always have to be aware of how it works, even if you are out there all alone running a train. Drive into a block where you forgot to set the power and your train suddenly stops.

                                      --Randy

Randy nailed it exactly. After running with cab control on some large club layouts, I quickly decided command control was the only way to fly on a large layout. Setting up a basic DCC system is no more complex than your average HD TV and DVD player. With most new locos having a decoder socket and being plug and play, most of the complexities are removed.

Like going from VHS tape to DVD, going from DC to DCC is similar in that you have to learn some new terminology and a few new skills.  But two are about similar in the level of conceptual switch. Once you make the switch, however, few ever want to go back. DCC so simplifies things overall that most later wonder why they waited so long.

Joe,DCC will never work in our club..We have operation melt downs as it is when one yard gets backed up.We have a bottle neck at West Dayton where the Newark Sub joins the main.

DCC can't do the impossible and its not the cure all..In the club's position it won't even be a aspirin to ease the DS's headache.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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