OK, Watch this post dissapear! A reply I made to "What happened to the MR product reviews" was deleted because "we do not swear on the forum"!!! I just revisited the subject and found:
1. I did not swear - I used and a few letters with ** between or )*&^$*& - I have seen much worse in the forum!
2. Not only my reply was deleted, but EVERY NEGATIVE REPLY HAS BEEN DELETED!!!!![censored]
3. This is more than censorship of language - it is censorship of opinion!!!
4. Bergie, I know it's your forum, but it's the member's also. Your product reviews almost never say anything negative, even on products that are not so great. Are we required to shut up about something we don't agree with too?
Louis Van Hentenryck
lvanhen@msn.com
PS. Any members that have had similar replies deleted or agree with this post can e-mail me at the above address
From my experiences at the club with certain locomotives that MR had reviewed has been spot on.I see a lot of forum reviews that is off compared to my experiences at the clubs as well..
So and IMHO the BEST review is the one YOU make based on first hand observations and test runs just like its been done in the years past.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
He who pays the piper calls the tune. Bergie pays the piper here, representing a large publisher, so he calls the tone for the exchanges permitted here. Doesn't get much simpler than that.
It might be useful, though, for the rules to be altered to reflect that even the suggestion of profanity, whether expressed or implied, is forbidden on this forum. That way, even the odd key stroke pattern representing colourful language will be considered verboten, and we would all know better.
And I quote:
- No swearing or foul language. And we don't care if you use symbols to mask the words. The meaning is still conveyed and we don't want it in our forum. Please keep in mind that we have readers of all ages. This isn't a tavern.
Right off the page "Our forum policies, including no advertising" at:
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/974532/ShowPost.aspx
Swearing is swearing. Putting a few %$*& in place of obvious letters makes it no better.
As for reviews, have you ever based a purchase decision on something you read in a magazine review of any type? I cant say I have although I read them
This is not a publicly owned site. Once you post here, the ownership of the content shifts to Kalmbach. Therefore you can't whine about censorship because you no longer have any claim of ownership to whatever you posted. It's their site and they can run it however they wish. That's what everyone agreed to when we all signed up!
So be careful about what you post.
I don't want to sound like a prude, but I do believe it's possible to convey your maternally carnal opinions without the use of blasphemous assignations, references to peristaltic products, or male canine pups. But that's just me.
By the way, can someone define "bad language?" Does it constitute words that aren't heard every night on primetime, non-cable TV? Or words banned from the music our young ones listen to?
Curious minds want to know.
Lynda
Lynda wrote: I don't want to sound like a prude, but I do believe it's possible to convey your maternally carnal opinions without the use of blasphemous assignations, references to peristaltic products, or male canine pups. But that's just me. By the way, can someone define "bad language?" Does it constitute words that aren't heard every night on primetime, non-cable TV? Or words banned from the music our young ones listen to?Curious minds want to know.Lynda
I agree that a definition would be useful, but it then tends to limit the freedom of the host if and when he/she opines that the language of concern is decidedly out of bounds. It is best to use a general term, and to then make a claim that the contrary language in question meets their definition. Humans are always looking for loopholes, and the more specific definitions become, the easier it is to find a way around them. Keep it vague or general, and then wave the imperious hand of inclusiveness when undesired language appears...undesired to them, that is.
I would do the same if it were my forum.
I'm somewhat new here; so, I've spent quite a lot of time reading older threads. I've found surprisingly little use of potentially offensive language. What has caused me a double take is a surprising amount of intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance. For a forum dedicated to a hobby, the number of these kinds of posts confounds me. Over the years, I've gotten to know quite a few model railroaders personally, and I've never found them anything but patient, kind, gentlemanly, and generous to a fault. You can see how many of the posts found here stand in marked contrast. Were I seeking to portray a positive image of model railroading for our young, I'd be far more concerned about checking attitudes at the door than policing language. But, again, that's just me.
lvanhen wrote: OK, Watch this post dissapear! A reply I made to "What happened to the MR product reviews" was deleted because "we do not swear on the forum"!!! I just revisited the subject and found:1. I did not swear - I used and a few letters with ** between or )*&^$*& - I have seen much worse in the forum! 2. Not only my reply was deleted, but EVERY NEGATIVE REPLY HAS BEEN DELETED!!!!![censored]3. This is more than censorship of language - it is censorship of opinion!!! 4. Bergie, I know it's your forum, but it's the member's also. Your product reviews almost never say anything negative, even on products that are not so great. Are we required to shut up about something we don't agree with too?Louis Van Hentenrycklvanhen@msn.comPS. Any members that have had similar replies deleted or agree with this post can e-mail me at the above address
Why is in the smileys?
Why were at least 6 or 7 other "negative" replies also deleted?
Disgusted!
Because they can.
If you don't like how the forum is run, I'm sure Bregie could point you to the way out.
Lynda wrote: What has caused me a double take is a surprising amount of intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance. For a forum dedicated to a hobby, the number of these kinds of posts confounds me.
What has caused me a double take is a surprising amount of intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance. For a forum dedicated to a hobby, the number of these kinds of posts confounds me.
"In my opinion the best solution would be a database of models by scale that could be started with a MR review and then members add their own findings and solutions to problems, but again it would have to be moderated to prevent any possibility of unfair trashing of a model."
That's such a good idea that we already have a database like that, including reader comments. It's at www.modelrailroader.com
Thanks for reading MR,
Terry
Midnight Railroader wrote: Lynda wrote: What has caused me a double take is a surprising amount of intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance. For a forum dedicated to a hobby, the number of these kinds of posts confounds me. Agreed.
I agree with both of you.
I'm not trying to cause trouble, just asking an innocent question, but if even the whiff of cursing is not allowed...which I'm OK with, btw - then why do we have this: and this: available to us to use on the forum?
Sorry if I manage to get those symbols deleted from our choices, but it does kind of send mixed signals as to what is allowed if you ask me.
On another forum I belong to, (a rock music forum) a more liberal policy is used for cursing. But there is no getting around what the symbols and things mean....people might as well just use the real words.
And since there are minors here, and it is a family-oriented public forum, I have no problem with the no cursing rule, even though at times I find it hard to abide by.
oops: a personal pet peeve of mine...sorry I didn't notice someone already brought this up about the censored emoticons. Do we have a hypocrite emoticon?
lvanhen wrote: Your product reviews almost never say anything negative, even on products that are not so great.
Your product reviews almost never say anything negative, even on products that are not so great.
Can you give an example of a review that everyone agrees should have been negative but instead was positive or at least failed to be negative? Otherwise we are just talking in the abstract here.
Heh heh I just thought of something. Years ago and by that I mean the late 1950s and early 1960s, a lot of reviews in MR said that this or that product was good but seemed overpriced. And we look at those prices now and we can hardly believe the comment. A lot of comment in these forums is that this or that product is over priced and I wonder what we will think about that in 30 or more years.
The problem is that so many products are not only over priced, they're sold out!
Dave Nelson
That's the diversity component of the hobby again, isn't it?
I imagine people come to this forum for all kinds of reasons, besides seeking advice. Do you think there are a few members who visit here for the camaraderie? What about those who enjoy showing their work here because they don't know anyone who gives a hoot? How many drop in during their workday for a quick chat with like-minded hobbyists? Maybe there're a few who visit here to keep themselves motivated in the hobby. And judging by the generous people who provide the advice you seek, there are more than a few who visit here because they enjoy helping others.
I can't think of any of the aforementioned reasons that preclude us from being polite to one another.
RULES ARE RULES.
Every country, city, family, company. and publication has them. Like them or not.
Note to Lou Van H:
SEEMS It's always 'EDITORIALIZING' when you give it, but 'CRITICISM' when you get it.
I GUESS Life's not fair.
It is interesting and valuable to me that this thread has been allowed to run the day. It has been informative and has given some insight into the intent of this website in general.
I am talking about product reviews, not profanity for which there is no defense. No, I am neither intollerant nor being arrogant but a realist. Janet Jackson crossed the line which serves as a reminder to us all that vulgar and profane are well defined within our society
Back to reviews. Forums are IMHO, the best and the worst of the web, best in the dispersement of general information and the worst for the distribution of opinion represented as fact.
For example, someone just asked, can you tell us a product where the review tells only the good and leaves out significant problems with a product? A response to that question should provide specifics and move us from opine to observation.
What I don't know at this writing is if such open discussion and 'dispute' of publicised reviews is permitted in this forum. I think most of us are fully aware of the issues surrounding the publishing business.
Joe
Some would find these two posts intolerant and arrogant
Yes, I do model GN, but you don't get my goat!
CurtMc wrote: Some would find these two posts intolerant and arrogant Midnight Railroader wrote: Lynda wrote: What has caused me a double take is a surprising amount of intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance. For a forum dedicated to a hobby, the number of these kinds of posts confounds me. Agreed.
No doubt.
Those would be the people to whom we refer.
Model railroad manufactures are not like General Motors or Ford. They are typically very small operations. A very negative review could seriously effect a model railroad manufacturer.
My thread, entitled, "ARGH! I Can't Cut Styrene Worth [Exclamation Point, At Symbol, Pound Sign, Dollar Sign, Percentage Sign, Ampersand]" was deleted too. I know better than to use obvious vulgarity here, but even as a kid watching cartoons, symbols and gibberish-swearing shown in the cartoon were common. The symbols did not represent any swear letters by resemblance or number of characters, it's the most I wanted to show without being obvious about it.
I wrote that thread subject as a way to convey my utter frustration at cutting styrene (because, let's face it, it is frustrating), not meant as language directed at anyone (everyone understood that), and it had garnered some very helpful advice from other forum members on how to properly make straight cuts on styrene. But the entire thread had been removed, deleting some very constructive advice. Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater! If the moderator wanted to alter my subject line and take out those symbols, I'm fine with that, but in deleting the entire thread, which had nothing to do with actual vulgarity, a lot of important information was removed, and that I took issue with.
The topic of MR reviews is one of those chestnuts that pops up on here periodically. I do not believe that I have ever read a total hatchet job in a review in which a product is slammed. I have read numerous reviews in which flaws in dimensions and details have been pointed out, as well as shortcomings in performance. I would in no way class MR reviews as dishonest in some way. I suspect that any truly bad products just don't get reviewed in print. My biggest complaint about the reviews in particular those of locomotives is that in many cases the reviews are too late to really help in a purchasing decision. So often it seems the locos are in limited supply and already sold out.
As for censorship within the forum I believe that MR has no alternative but to police this forum with a fairly strict interpretation of foul and abusive language. It may seem a bit silly to delete threads with symbols in place of words, but with a global audience ranging in age from 7 to 100 you have to figure on the side of caution. If it is a word or phrase that they would not put into print in the magazine I have no problem with it being removed from here.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Lynda,I hate to break it to you, but this forum is positively mild compared to other internet forums, groups, and lists for "...intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance." No, really. Some places have some real "interesting" people that live to make others miserable, and either they are the moderators or it's unmoderated and so anything goes. The original MR and Trains forums were bad. The Atlas Forum in the old days, or RR.net when it was unmoderated, or the granddaddy of them all, rec.models.railroad, the newsgroup. All of these were far worse than anything seen today on this forum.
I've been posting to the MR website since the very first incarnation back in 1996 when Andy S. would post a monthly question and there was a guestbook-type entry one could fill out. IOW, I've been on the 'net for a long time, and while I won't deny that there is ..."intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance" on this current forum, it's really not that bad.
As for the original poster who decries the censorship, try posting on rec.models.railroad, the last bastion of commercial-free internet. It's unmoderated and uncensored, just don't post binaries. r.m.r is the one of the last places one can be critical of a manufacturer and not have to worry about being deleted.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************