brothaslide wrote: Model railroad manufactures are not like General Motors or Ford. They are typically very small operations. A very negative review could seriously effect a model railroad manufacturer.
Model railroad manufactures are not like General Motors or Ford. They are typically very small operations. A very negative review could seriously effect a model railroad manufacturer.
Before I say this, keep in mind that I am not on the Model Railroader staff, nor do I have input on what's reviewed or how it's reviewed. So, this is basically my opinion as an insider who's also an enthusiast.
Keep in mind that MR is in a no win situation. Positive reviews are seen as being soft. If they nit-picked everything to death they'd get criticized for picking on the manufacturer. What do you want, MR to grill products on every last detail? Think of what that would do to some of the manufacturers and what the longterm effect would be for you: less products.
Please, try to remember that we're talking about scale reproductions of actual products. Also, try to remember this is a hobby.
As for swearing, the rules are pretty simple. And the smiley... that's part of this forum software, but I guess I'll have to see if it can be removed.
Can we move on now?
Bergie
Jason
Modeling the Fort Worth & Denver of the early 1970's in N scale
I find that profanity, actual or implied, merely gets in the way, although it sometimes is a marker that that reply is not worth reading. I salute MR's policing of of this forum. As active as the forum is, Bergie probably can really only give a quick look (I'm sure he has other duties besides monitoring the forums) and doesn't have time to ask people to make changes and then check to see if they did. All in all, I think he does a very good job.
As for reviews, I like them. I find that tend to give an in depth look at the subject being reviewed. They rarely express a value judgement or make a buying judgement so in that respect they are not Consumer Reports, but then they aren't trying to be. I don't know what their selection criteria is for reviews, but they can't review everything. Engines seem to be a favorite followed by rolling stock which I would think to be the most popular subjects with readers.
Enjoy
Paul
Metro, I hope you read this.
Please consider making a new "Styrene Cutting" thread. I read it and it was full of excellent, useful info. I'm a bit upset that it was deleted before I downloaded it. I'm one of those modelers that has had challenges with styrene.
I was going to do it, but I don't want to be a hijacker so, imho, it's appropriate that you start it. Hopefully the same posters will "re-contribute" their information .
Peace and High Greens.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
modelmaker51 wrote:It's a sure sign of ignorance and/or immaturaty if you can't communicated your ideas or feelings without cursing. Maybe a course in English Composition would be in order?
To Modelmaker: I guess you are better than I - I got my degree at NYU - where did you get your's? Arrogance U?
To about 1/2 of the rest of the replies - you seem to think my complaint was about the MR reviews - read my reply on page 1, I object to removing the replys that were also in complaint of the reviews - very one sided for a forum that should represent both sides of any argument. My use of symbols has been used many times by others in the forum and I was not aware of any rules violation with this useage, and would not have done so.
Here's something "compliant"
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
SteamFreak wrote:Metro, that's why they removed your thread? I came across this one while searching for your styrene topic, and now all of that info is gone. They should have asked you to modify the topic. I agree that profanity shouldn't be allowed (in fact there was a recent thread about E. Coli that completely grossed me out), but isn't the requirement for deletion actual profanity? SHEEEESH!! (, hope that doesn't get me in trouble.)As for faux profanity, the Angry Beavers loved the word "spoot." Perhaps that would pass muster? I'd curse in Klingon, but I'm not that big a geek.
Metro, that's why they removed your thread? I came across this one while searching for your styrene topic, and now all of that info is gone. They should have asked you to modify the topic. I agree that profanity shouldn't be allowed (in fact there was a recent thread about E. Coli that completely grossed me out), but isn't the requirement for deletion actual profanity? SHEEEESH!! (, hope that doesn't get me in trouble.)
As for faux profanity, the Angry Beavers loved the word "spoot." Perhaps that would pass muster?
I'd curse in Klingon, but I'm not that big a geek.
Yeah man, isn't that freaked up? I mean freakin' shoot, man! If they wanted me to change the darn subject line, I would have changed the darn subject line, but to delete the whole freaking thread? That's just diddlysquat, man!!!
Metro Red Line wrote: My thread, entitled, "ARGH! I Can't Cut Styrene Worth [Exclamation Point, At Symbol, Pound Sign, Dollar Sign, Percentage Sign, Ampersand]" was deleted too. I know better than to use obvious vulgarity here, but even as a kid watching cartoons, symbols and gibberish-swearing shown in the cartoon were common. The symbols did not represent any swear letters by resemblance or number of characters, it's the most I wanted to show without being obvious about it. I wrote that thread subject as a way to convey my utter frustration at cutting styrene (because, let's face it, it is frustrating), not meant as language directed at anyone (everyone understood that), and it had garnered some very helpful advice from other forum members on how to properly make straight cuts on styrene. But the entire thread had been removed, deleting some very constructive advice. Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater! If the moderator wanted to alter my subject line and take out those symbols, I'm fine with that, but in deleting the entire thread, which had nothing to do with actual vulgarity, a lot of important information was removed, and that I took issue with.
My thread, entitled, "ARGH! I Can't Cut Styrene Worth [Exclamation Point, At Symbol, Pound Sign, Dollar Sign, Percentage Sign, Ampersand]" was deleted too. I know better than to use obvious vulgarity here, but even as a kid watching cartoons, symbols and gibberish-swearing shown in the cartoon were common. The symbols did not represent any swear letters by resemblance or number of characters, it's the most I wanted to show without being obvious about it.
I wrote that thread subject as a way to convey my utter frustration at cutting styrene (because, let's face it, it is frustrating), not meant as language directed at anyone (everyone understood that), and it had garnered some very helpful advice from other forum members on how to properly make straight cuts on styrene. But the entire thread had been removed, deleting some very constructive advice. Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater! If the moderator wanted to alter my subject line and take out those symbols, I'm fine with that, but in deleting the entire thread, which had nothing to do with actual vulgarity, a lot of important information was removed, and that I took issue with.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
Metro Red Line wrote: I propose we invent some "swear words" for use in this forum, and only in this forum and not to the outside world. I hereby propose the following:spurnkExamples:"I bought a spurnkin' new GG-1 today!""BNSF is now charging a licensing fee to manufacturers?!? What the spurnk were they thinking?"krogExamples:"My LHS only cares about R/C cars and planes. They don't know krog about trains!""I respect rivet counters, but a lot of them are just full of krog." norfquagExamples:"I won a bid for some Superliners off of eBay, but they arrived poorly packed and were broken. I'm gonna report the seller. What a norfquag! "
I propose we invent some "swear words" for use in this forum, and only in this forum and not to the outside world. I hereby propose the following:
spurnk
Examples:"I bought a spurnkin' new GG-1 today!""BNSF is now charging a licensing fee to manufacturers?!? What the spurnk were they thinking?"
krog
Examples:"My LHS only cares about R/C cars and planes. They don't know krog about trains!""I respect rivet counters, but a lot of them are just full of krog."
norfquagExamples:"I won a bid for some Superliners off of eBay, but they arrived poorly packed and were broken. I'm gonna report the seller. What a norfquag! "
...but, you see.....a rose by any other name....
...aaah, to rose with it..!
MR and RMC always cast their reviews with a positive twist, they will never really give a poor product a poor review, even if it deserves it.
Automobile magazines and computer magazines frequently publish reviews that trash advertisers products that truly deserve a trashing. MR and RMC? Never.
Now, we all know that their are products out there that should never have been produced and marketed, some by rather large MR suppliers.
Let's take the Walther's kit range for example. We all know that range contains some real dogs and probably the worst was their first 90 foot motorised plastic turntable of a few years ago. This piece of junk was almost impossible to assemble and to make to work.
How did MR and RMC sidestep the impossible task of putting a positive spin on this terrible product? They did NOT review it. So, how do you know about the really poor products from major advertisers?
By watching both MR and RMC for product reviews. No product review = really bad product.
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the late Great Eastern Railway see: - http://www.greateasternrailway.com
For more photos of the late GER see: - http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/
i think if you use a couple of letters and some punctuation to take the place of a word , that makes it obvious to just about anyone what word you were trying to sneak past the moderators . if you use or you aren't being specific , there is no actual word implied by those symbols , and it's therefor allowed
to the poster of the thread about cutting styrene , i agree that that's pushing a point , but i suspect that bergie is trying to be fair and treat everyone the same , and if he deletes one persons post due to using punctuation to represent foul language , he has to remove everyones post who does it .
i kind of doubt there are any kids who are old enough to figure out how to access this forum who haven't already heard those words , but MR has to look like they're keeping it clean or there are plenty of people out there who will complain
If we take a good look at what drives the attitude of some people on the forum, and I stress the word "some", it is the inability to convey in words, their frustration with a problem or other matter, without the use of "heavy language" shall we say, or the insinuation of "angry" language. It is so very easy when we hide behind our keyboards and take out our frustrations with the world ( MRR in this case ) by typing all sorts of characters and symbols. But how many of us would do that in a live forum with the very same members on this MRR General Forum? There are times that symbols are used in jest, and it is readily understood by the reader that it was meant to be funny, not raving mad.
I challenge all of us to see how we all can convey our responses and comments as intelligent, mature, adults. If this is the Greatest Hobby in the World, shouldn't we be equal?
Paul,
Again, thank you for a well-reasoned, dispassionate response. Truly, I can't fault what you're saying. I've belonged to forums where discussions of national politics were tolerated by the forum admins. It was UGLY. My only contention is that I think we all need to remind ourselves constantly that model railroading is a hobby; hence, it should be fun. Arguably, this forum is an extension of the hobby, and I doubt there are any but few who find testosterone-loaded flamethrower attacks a matter of enjoyment. There're a couple of ongoing threads where erroneous information is being passed. I wonder how many visitors are staying out of the fray simply because it's not worth their energy or because they'd rather not have their wisdom impugned by someone who'll become nasty simply to win an argument? This reminds me of an article I've read recently about the psychology of those who are compelled to argue points, even though they're aware their arguments are incorrect.
Thank you for the thoughts, Paul.
Lynda
Dave Vollmer wrote: Nowadays, if you read MR reveiws you'd think N scale was on the fringe...
You mean N-scale isn't on the fringe?
I think most editors cater to the majority of their readership. I've edited two magazines: one for horseowners, the other concerned health care. In the former instance, the bulk of our readers owned Quarter Horses. Guess who got the most editorial space? In the latter publication, we started out targeting health care consumers, but quickly found the bulk of our readers were health care professionals. Yup, we redirected our content.
I know very little about MR's editorial policy, but I'm awfully certain content is directed toward the scale preferred by most readers. The only way to change this is to band all the N-scale fringers together and scream - squeaky wheels get the oil.
Lynda,For starters, thanks for serving this country. While never in the service myself, my father (USAF), my uncle (USN), and my grandfather (USA) plus a host of other family & friends all have (one is in Iraq right now), and I respect that kind of commitment.
Secondly, worrying about this forum's current level of "...intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance" is a bit like worrying over a leaky faucet when it used to be a firehose going full blast inside the house. Sure, it could be better, but I don't agree that it's the destructive force that it has been.
I do agree that the worry over language when equally important items are being ignored is silly...but then that's our culture. We do that all the time. For example, it's perfectly all right to show the gruesome scenes in CSI on network TV (and all the other violence that's on broadcast TV these days), but let Janet Jackson show a little too much during a Super Bowl halftime show and look at that reaction it caused. That little flash she did is nothing compared to European broadcast TV shows, yet here in the US it was so repugnant that the crackdown on TV & radio is still being felt today, years later.
And about your final point, I also agree. "Keyboard Kourage" is all the rage. But it's unfortunately true in almost all hobbies. I've heard that photo and camera groups are particularly troublesome, and I'm sure I don't have to tell you about military forums and groups. I used to lurk for years over on one of the warplane newsgroups, and the backstabbing and flamethrowing on it was entertaining, to say the least. It even got to the point that a former B-26 pilot had to prove his existance by meeting some of the other group members at an airshow or reunion or something like that. It got pretty nasty...
So I hope you stick around here. But do try out the Atlas Forum and r.m.r (the old Deja archive's now on Google's website). What do you model and in what scale?
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
What gets my goat (GN or otherwise) is that MR doesn't seem to review a proportional number of N scale products anymore. They throw in the token "quick look" for a Micro-Trains car, but it's been a while since I've seen a decent number of full-detailed reviews. Atlas has been very, very good to the N scale market lately, so I would expect a locomotive review every now and then in N. I think the last good N review was the PCM E7. But if the internet is any indication, N scale is offering HO some healthy competition out there. Nowadays, if you read MR reveiws you'd think N scale was on the fringe...
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Tim Fahey
Musconetcong Branch of the Lehigh Valley RR
Midnight Railroader wrote: Lynda wrote: What has caused me a double take is a surprising amount of intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance. For a forum dedicated to a hobby, the number of these kinds of posts confounds me. Agreed.
Lynda wrote: What has caused me a double take is a surprising amount of intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance. For a forum dedicated to a hobby, the number of these kinds of posts confounds me.
What has caused me a double take is a surprising amount of intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance. For a forum dedicated to a hobby, the number of these kinds of posts confounds me.
And Ditto, I think a lot of people on forums hide behind the fact that they feel immune to punishment because they are not face to face with their challengers.
Teditor
Thank you for responding so diplomatically.
Believe it or not, I didn't fall off the punkin truck yesterday. I've visited online forums of one ilk or another since 1988. Saying it's not as bad as it used to be is as flagrant an argument as saying you no longer beat your dog as often.
The totality of my point is the irony of being so paranoid about language - even redacting symbolic euphemisms - while simultaneously tolerating behaviors that are much more likely to send potential hobbyists fleeing.
In truth, I don't give a Clydesdale's nose one way or the other. After twenty years in the Marines, it's doubtful I'll be put off by anything said here, no matter what words (or symbles) a poster chooses. I'll confess, however, that I'm taken aback by the attitudes of a few visitors who seem destined to offer little more than leaving their scent on the perimeter.
Paul3 wrote:...try posting on rec.models.railroad...
You, sir, are not a nice man.
Lynda,I hate to break it to you, but this forum is positively mild compared to other internet forums, groups, and lists for "...intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance." No, really. Some places have some real "interesting" people that live to make others miserable, and either they are the moderators or it's unmoderated and so anything goes. The original MR and Trains forums were bad. The Atlas Forum in the old days, or RR.net when it was unmoderated, or the granddaddy of them all, rec.models.railroad, the newsgroup. All of these were far worse than anything seen today on this forum.
I've been posting to the MR website since the very first incarnation back in 1996 when Andy S. would post a monthly question and there was a guestbook-type entry one could fill out. IOW, I've been on the 'net for a long time, and while I won't deny that there is ..."intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance" on this current forum, it's really not that bad.
As for the original poster who decries the censorship, try posting on rec.models.railroad, the last bastion of commercial-free internet. It's unmoderated and uncensored, just don't post binaries. r.m.r is the one of the last places one can be critical of a manufacturer and not have to worry about being deleted.
The topic of MR reviews is one of those chestnuts that pops up on here periodically. I do not believe that I have ever read a total hatchet job in a review in which a product is slammed. I have read numerous reviews in which flaws in dimensions and details have been pointed out, as well as shortcomings in performance. I would in no way class MR reviews as dishonest in some way. I suspect that any truly bad products just don't get reviewed in print. My biggest complaint about the reviews in particular those of locomotives is that in many cases the reviews are too late to really help in a purchasing decision. So often it seems the locos are in limited supply and already sold out.
As for censorship within the forum I believe that MR has no alternative but to police this forum with a fairly strict interpretation of foul and abusive language. It may seem a bit silly to delete threads with symbols in place of words, but with a global audience ranging in age from 7 to 100 you have to figure on the side of caution. If it is a word or phrase that they would not put into print in the magazine I have no problem with it being removed from here.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
CurtMc wrote: Some would find these two posts intolerant and arrogant Midnight Railroader wrote: Lynda wrote: What has caused me a double take is a surprising amount of intolerance, competitiveness, rudeness, and outright arrogance. For a forum dedicated to a hobby, the number of these kinds of posts confounds me. Agreed.
Some would find these two posts intolerant and arrogant
No doubt.
Those would be the people to whom we refer.
Yes, I do model GN, but you don't get my goat!
It is interesting and valuable to me that this thread has been allowed to run the day. It has been informative and has given some insight into the intent of this website in general.
I am talking about product reviews, not profanity for which there is no defense. No, I am neither intollerant nor being arrogant but a realist. Janet Jackson crossed the line which serves as a reminder to us all that vulgar and profane are well defined within our society
Back to reviews. Forums are IMHO, the best and the worst of the web, best in the dispersement of general information and the worst for the distribution of opinion represented as fact.
For example, someone just asked, can you tell us a product where the review tells only the good and leaves out significant problems with a product? A response to that question should provide specifics and move us from opine to observation.
What I don't know at this writing is if such open discussion and 'dispute' of publicised reviews is permitted in this forum. I think most of us are fully aware of the issues surrounding the publishing business.
Joe