I searched and found a long, and interesting thread about the best DCC system to get....but the discussion was a year old. There may be newer discussions, but I would still be grateful for a Dec. 2006 response.
My needs are going to be pretty simple on my new HO layout. It will not be expanding or becoming more sophisticated. So, setting issues of expandibility, wireless, etc. aside......
Is there any beginner's DCC controller better in features, as good in control knob and button useage, and/or better value for the money than the Digitrax Zephyr?
It is understood that a good starter DCC set must be able to run one analog locomotive as well.
Thanks now for any responses.
Have you considered the NCE PowerCab - another entry level DCC system, and affordable too. It's what I'll be getting when the purse strings are a little fuller. Do a search of these forums and you'll find a topic on this system reviewed in depth.
Ian
and to the forum!
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Fawlty Logic wrote: I searched and found a long, and interesting thread about the best DCC system to get....but the discussion was a year old. There may be newer discussions, but I would still be grateful for a Dec. 2006 response.My needs are going to be pretty simple on my new HO layout. It will not be expanding or becoming more sophisticated. So, setting issues of expandibility, wireless, etc. aside......Is there any beginner's DCC controller better in features, as good in control knob and button useage, and/or better value for the money than the Digitrax Zephyr?It is understood that a good starter DCC set must be able to run one analog locomotive as well.Thanks now for any responses.
I don't really know if the ability to run one analog unit unit really matters. From what I've read, starter sets with this ability do a poor job. If you're going to go DCC, go all the way.Some Decoders are as little as 10 to 12 dollars each. If you have 200 loco's then run them around your Christmas tree layout until you can afford the decoders in each one.
NCE starter set is $139.99 & Digitrax is approx. $159.99 at Tonys Train Exchange. I would pick one of those.
First
THink about how deep you are dreaming of getting into DCC and use that thought to decide what to get.
I jumped in with both feet and just went with the empire builder by Digitrax and never looked back. The extra money you spend getting a full system is worth it if you are planning a LARGE layout. If you are just thinking 4x8 is all then the Zephyer is a good choice. I have tried MRC and NCE and like the Digitrax better. Still have an MRC Prodigy sitting on the shelf.
Happy New Year
I went with the NCE Powercab as it seemed from the info I could find that it was easier to get up and running. I don't know how much there is to the Digitrax set up but I understand until you have used it for quite a while you will have to keep the manual close by to refer to it over and over. The NCE has many programing prompts so you can do most in plain english, but I still had to refer to the manual on a few things recently because I simply had not done many functions for a while.
Most of the DCC systems out there are fairly good. You could even go to the Bachman for very cheap. Keep looking around and do a comparison based on YOUR needs and desires. The procab is a walk around but in its basic form you cannot unplug it or the trains will stop, but hey its still teathered.
Litchfield Station on the internet has a comparison and so does Tony's Train Exchange, the were very helpfull. Remember it comes down to your personal preference.
John
The only problem with the NCE PowerCab starter set is that if you unplug the handheld, the layout comes to a halt until it is plugged in again. Also, IIRC NCE doesn't run analog locos...I think only Digitrax and Lenz does that.
It really depends on what you like. If a tethered throttle is more important to you, then get the NCE PowerCab. If you prefer the "throttlepack" type stationary throttle, then the Zephyr is for you.
One of the nice things about the Zephyr is it's "jump" ports that allow up to two normal DC throttles to be turned into DCC throttles. This means that one can control up to three different trains at one time (great if you have "junior engineers").
I run my 25' x 50' HO layout with my Zephyr, and am very pleased with it. I added a UR91 and DT400R's for radio control, and it's made an even bigger difference in my layout enjoyment.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Driline wrote:I don't really know if the ability to run one analog unit unit really matters.
I don't really know if the ability to run one analog unit unit really matters.
It comes in handy for testing locos before you put decoders in them. Make sure the loco is running right, then add the decoder. That way you'll know if it's a problem with the loco itself, or if it's a problem with the decoder or your installation.
Driline wrote: From what I've read, starter sets with this ability do a poor job.
From what I've read, starter sets with this ability do a poor job.
In spite of what I've said above, running an analog loco on a DCC layout will always be a compromise. That's because locos are not designed for the "zero-stretching" method that all analog-capable DCC systems use.
It has nothing to do with whether or not you're using a "starter set" (keep in mind that a top-of-the-line package of few components, ie, Command station, throttle, and panel, is also considered a "starter set").
Some locos deal with zero-stretching better than others, but that's because of the loco's characteristics, not the DCC system in use.
Steve
You have thoughtfully included the statement that you intend no expansion or complicaton beyond a rudimentary approach. Good of you to consider this parameter, but I know, as do my friends here, that you will ditch that notion before long. I don't mean that it is silly, not even naive; it is just that as we pursue an interest, things about it that we didn't at first realize become more salient, more impacting on our future aspirations and dreams, and therefore they overtake our first modest ideals.
I always encourage caution and method when approaching this hobby, but one of the things that you need to be most careful about it wasting valuable dollars. Wiring and powering a layout is a big deal, believe me, so establishing an inclusive range of capability in those areas right from the get-go gives you room for the likely expansions that you have convinced yourself you won't need. Sorry, but it won't cost much more than another $100-160 to get a system that does not become a $130 door stop over the next 18 months.
We all find a way to include a couple more spurs or team tracks. Of course, that means, much to our delight, that we could probably get another SW1 working in that area, and since the majority of new folks to the hobby are highly desirous of the sound capabilities, count on another 0.8 amps in HO for that SW1 in sound. If your starter system only has 2-3 amps to dish out, you have just asked it to increase output by another 27%.
I am not trying to dissuade you, just to help you to consider that your now-firm commitment to keep it all very simple and undemanding limits you from the very start, and that, for a relatively few more dollars, you are not likely to have to face power or capability problems for many years.
spidge wrote: I don't know how much there is to the Digitrax set up but I understand until you have used it for quite a while you will have to keep the manual close by to refer to it over and over.
I don't know how much there is to the Digitrax set up but I understand until you have used it for quite a while you will have to keep the manual close by to refer to it over and over.
I just don't understand why the Zephyr gets this rap. Have you ever heard or read that an actual Zephyr user needed to keep the manual handy? The old Digitrax throttles (5 years ago) were quite complicated and not at all easy to understand. The Zephyr could not be simpler. Setup is a simple as connecting 2 track wires and plugging in the power supply. Sure I used my manual when I first got the system, but this notion that you have to keep the manual on hand to perform routine DCC functions is utter rubbish.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Selector has given you good advice. I started small with a little shelf switching layout and that's all I had room for. But in a couple of years I retired, got a new house with a basement, and now I'm so glad I have a full featured 5 amp system.
So give it a lot of thought. Start with something that works well for you now but that can easily be expanded with no waste.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
Fawlty,
I have a Zephyr for my 4' x 10' BRVRR. I couldn't be happier with it.
The Zephyr is a starter system, but a very capable one. I have two MRC 1300 power packs attached to the jump ports and a DT400, for a total of 5-throttles. I recently added a LocoBuffer-USB so I could program locos and run the layout with my personal computer.
Don't let anyone fool you about the power capability of the Zephyr. It might be just 2 1/2 amps, but that is enough to run 8-locos at a time. I know, I have done it and 5 of them have sound! The Zephyr never blinked. Among them were BLI, Athearn BB kits, P2K and Bachmann locomotives, steam and diesel.
Running an analog loco on a DCC layout at address '00' is a useful tool to have in your bag of tricks. Or for the time a friend brings over a non-DCC loco to run on your layout. The Digitrax systems reduce the power to the '00' address to prevent damaging the motor. Thus you usually only get half-speed/power from them. Still enough to get prototypical speeds in most cases.
I can't speak to the other makes, but I don't think you can go wrong with a Zephyr. If you do decide to expand, Digitrax offers innumerable products to assist you and your Zephyr will be among them.
Check around, see what other modelers in your area use and then make your decision. I have pictures posted on my website of my Zephyr installation. Once on site, push the Layout button and scroll down the page.
Good luck. You will never regret the switch to DCC, regardless of the system you ultimately decide on.
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
Each system has their own unique features.
They all have a different feel to them, their control knobs and button usage are all different.
A good starter DCC system does NOT have to be able to run analog engines.
And just like the Powercab, when you disconnect "ANY" DCC system, the layout stops.
As far as better value goes- that is something for you to decide. Everyone can think up reasons why their system is a better value.
What difference does it make if model A has this feature if you're never going to use it? Why spend the money on it?
Then again, why buy something that is not upgradable? It's really up to you to decide for yourself.
Look at all the systems- look for the features that you desire. Put it in your hand to see if you like the feel. Test each system to see how they work compared to others and the decide what YOU like best.
Opinions are like Buttholes- everyones got one.
The powercab Is good for me, the Zephyr is good for others. Both systems are upgradable and neither become obsolete when upgrades are made. Both are good choices.
CraigN wrote:Each system has their own unique features.They all have a different feel to them, their control knobs and button usage are all different.A good starter DCC system does NOT have to be able to run analog engines.
True, but depending on an individual's needs, it could easily be the difference between a system that meets those needs and one that doesn't.
CraigN wrote: And just like the Powercab, when you disconnect "ANY" DCC system, the layout stops.
Of course if you "disconnect" any DCC system the layout will stop. But what if your DCC system comes with a single tethered throttle? By virtue of it being tethered, you'd expect to be able to be unplug and re-plug it (as opposed to "disconnecting" the whole DCC system) without shutting down the layout. Even DC, for decades now, has had memory throttles that could be unplugged and re-plugged without affecting operation. What other DCC system that has tethered throttles has this limitation?
The February issue of Model Railroader shows the Zepher setup that they are using on their Black River Junction Layout.
This illustrates the ease of adding additional throttles, including wireless. If you want to start small but have something that can easily be expanded in the future this looks like a good way to go.
I've studied the Zepher Manual and it is seems very clear and easy to read and follow.
Fawlty Logic wrote:I searched and found a long, and interesting thread about the best DCC system to get....but the discussion was a year old. There may be newer discussions, but I would still be grateful for a Dec. 2006 response.My needs are going to be pretty simple on my new HO layout. It will not be expanding or becoming more sophisticated. So, setting issues of expandibility, wireless, etc. aside......Is there any beginner's DCC controller better in features, as good in control knob and button useage, and/or better value for the money than the Digitrax Zephyr?It is understood that a good starter DCC set must be able to run one analog locomotive as well.Thanks now for any responses.
Okay, if you are going to set expandibility, wireless, etc. aside, does that include access to and adjustment of CVs (or configuration variables)? If not, then buy the Bachmann E-Z Command. If your needs are simple, then simple it is - and it can be picked up for a 1/2 to a 1/3 the price of other DCC systems.
However, if you are looking for value and features, the Zephyr is a very good choice. If running a DC locomotive on your layout is important to you, again, the Zephyr is probably you're best choice. If unplugging your throttle and having your DCC system shut down bugs you, stick with the Zephyr.
There are also other good systems on the market that others have already mentioned. Fawlty, you need to sit down and determine what features a DCC system has that will best fit YOUR needs and YOUR wants.
Every system has its pros and cons. The best DCC system has cons that you can live with and the pros that you can't live without.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Stevert wrote: CraigN wrote:Each system has their own unique features.They all have a different feel to them, their control knobs and button usage are all different.A good starter DCC system does NOT have to be able to run analog engines.True, but depending on an individual's needs, it could easily be the difference between a system that meets those needs and one that doesn't. CraigN wrote: And just like the Powercab, when you disconnect "ANY" DCC system, the layout stops. Of course if you "disconnect" any DCC system the layout will stop. But what if your DCC system comes with a single tethered throttle? By virtue of it being tethered, you'd expect to be able to be unplug and re-plug it (as opposed to "disconnecting" the whole DCC system) without shutting down the layout. Even DC, for decades now, has had memory throttles that could be unplugged and re-plugged without affecting operation. What other DCC system that has tethered throttles has this limitation?
If an extra throttle is used with the Powercab, The extra throttle can be unplugged without shutting down the system. Same as with other systems.
For the old DC systems with memory throttles, wasn't there some sort of base station that stored all the settings? If you unplug the base station, don't you lose everything? The Powercab is the base station for the DCC system. With the new Smart Booster, you can unplug the Powercab because the Smart Booster becomes the base station so to speak.
I just don't want people to pass up trying the Powercab just because other people tell them that their layout will go dead when unplugged.
Craig
CraigN wrote:What my point is is that some people use the "unplug the Powercab and the system goes dead" as a reason that other systems are better than the Powercab. When you disconnect the Powercab, you are unplugging it from it's power source. I'm saying that all systems will go dead when unplugged. The Powercab is no different.
What my point is is that some people use the "unplug the Powercab and the system goes dead" as a reason that other systems are better than the Powercab. When you disconnect the Powercab, you are unplugging it from it's power source. I'm saying that all systems will go dead when unplugged. The Powercab is no different.
You're confusing "moving a throttle to another panel" with "disconnecting the DCC system from the layout".
On most, if not all other DCC systems with tethered throttles, those are two distinct and very different actions that are NOT interrelated. And they shouldn't be. With today's technology, there's no need to inconvenience the entire layout to move a single pluggable, tethered throttle from one panel to another.
Unfortunately, the PowerCab combines those two distinct actions, which as you indicated is because they have the throttle do double-duty as the command station. And if this SB3 thread is any indication, adding an SB3 isn't an ideal solution, either. It seems to introduce it's own set of issues.
CraigN wrote: I just don't want people to pass up trying the Powercab just because other people tell them that their layout will go dead when unplugged.
It's an issue that folks should be aware of so they can make an informed decision, just like the analog ability discussed earlier in this thread. Everyone doesn't have the same requirements for a DCC system. In some cases it may sway their decision, in others maybe not.
Stevert wrote: CraigN wrote:What my point is is that some people use the "unplug the Powercab and the system goes dead" as a reason that other systems are better than the Powercab. When you disconnect the Powercab, you are unplugging it from it's power source. I'm saying that all systems will go dead when unplugged. The Powercab is no different. You're confusing "moving a throttle to another panel" with "disconnecting the DCC system from the layout". On most, if not all other DCC systems with tethered throttles, those are two distinct and very different actions that are NOT interrelated. And they shouldn't be. With today's technology, there's no need to inconvenience the entire layout to move a single pluggable, tethered throttle from one panel to another. Unfortunately, the PowerCab combines those two distinct actions, which as you indicated is because they have the throttle do double-duty as the command station. And if this SB3 thread is any indication, adding an SB3 isn't an ideal solution, either. It seems to introduce it's own set of issues. CraigN wrote: I just don't want people to pass up trying the Powercab just because other people tell them that their layout will go dead when unplugged. It's an issue that folks should be aware of so they can make an informed decision, just like the analog ability discussed earlier in this thread. Everyone doesn't have the same requirements for a DCC system. In some cases it may sway their decision, in others maybe not. Steve
Examples:
The Zephyr with an additional tethered cab is 2 seperate cabs- 1 stationary, 1 with a movable connection.
The Powercab with an additioal tethered cab is also 2 seperate cabs- 1 portable that stays plugged in, and 1 with a movable connection.
In both systems- if you unplug the system- they go dead. If you unplug the additional cab the system does not go dead.
Your right though, people do need to be informed so they can make their decision. I'm just letting them know that If I unplug my Powercab, it's no different than unplugging a Zephyr, LENZ, Bachmann, ETC....
Stevert wrote:It's an issue that folks should be aware of so they can make an informed decision, just like the analog ability discussed earlier in this thread. Everyone doesn't have the same requirements for a DCC system. In some cases it may sway their decision, in others maybe not. Steve
Steve,
I'm wondering if you would do me a favor. Would you be willing to honestly list your pros and cons (or strengths and weaknesses) of the Zephyr here on this thread so that folks can "make an informed decision"? The only constraints are:
Stevert wrote: CraigN wrote: What my point is is that some people use the "unplug the Powercab and the system goes dead" as a reason that other systems are better than the Powercab. When you disconnect the Powercab, you are unplugging it from it's power source. I'm saying that all systems will go dead when unplugged. The Powercab is no different. You're confusing "moving a throttle to another panel" with "disconnecting the DCC system from the layout". On most, if not all other DCC systems with tethered throttles, those are two distinct and very different actions that are NOT interrelated. And they shouldn't be. With today's technology, there's no need to inconvenience the entire layout to move a single pluggable, tethered throttle from one panel to another. Unfortunately, the PowerCab combines those two distinct actions, which as you indicated is because they have the throttle do double-duty as the command station. And if this SB3 thread is any indication, adding an SB3 isn't an ideal solution, either. It seems to introduce it's own set of issues. CraigN wrote: I just don't want people to pass up trying the Powercab just because other people tell them that their layout will go dead when unplugged. It's an issue that folks should be aware of so they can make an informed decision, just like the analog ability discussed earlier in this thread. Everyone doesn't have the same requirements for a DCC system. In some cases it may sway their decision, in others maybe not. Steve
CraigN wrote: What my point is is that some people use the "unplug the Powercab and the system goes dead" as a reason that other systems are better than the Powercab. When you disconnect the Powercab, you are unplugging it from it's power source. I'm saying that all systems will go dead when unplugged. The Powercab is no different.
Steve I think you're missing Craigs point completely. NCE's "Starter" unit allows you the freedom to move around via a tethered cord, unlike the Zephyr which is NOT movable. Thats why I purchased the NCE powercab over the Zephyr, becuase I wanted the freedom to move around my layout albeit with a 7' cord, but nonetheless I was free to move around.Now both these units are "Entry Level" and therefore have some limitations.
Obviously you can ADD a tethered throttle to both units and unplug and walk around to your hearts content, but you are slamming the NCE "Starter" set for not allowing that option to happen. If you want that option its available, all you have to do is PAY for it!
For me I personally prefer the NCE Power cab unit because its comfortable in my hand, like a TV remote and I can run a sound loco with just one hand. That is important to me. It may not be important to others, but I like that capability. Now for only $72 more, I'm going to buy an extra throttle and with it, I can unplug it and move around. But because my layout is only 11X7, I don't need that option, so its going to stay connected to the same panel my NCE powercab throttle is connected too.
Well I know (by now we must all know) about this unplugging thing and it is not a deal breaker for me.
Both systems have plus and minus, Power Cab being a handheld is a defenite advantage over the Zephyr base station in my book. Digitrax LocoNet is also unmatched in the DCC field in my opinion
Recently with a friend we displayed a modular layout 2X26 feet at a local show. We had a Zephyr with 2 two tethered handheld and I found it cumbersome to have these cord always in our way. At the club we have radio and once you have experienced this freeedom you can't go without it.
Now I know what it takes and the cost of upgrading the Zephyr to radio, anyone can quote what is needed and how much it will be to upgrade the Power Cab to radio?
Jack W.
jalajoie wrote: At the club we have radio and once you have experienced this freeedom you can't go without it.
I sure agree with this. Anyone cosidering a new system should consider that they may one day want radio. I know I do. I've been using the Lenz cordless phone and have experienced the freedom. So, I have a question about Digitrax radio:
With Digitrax you have to "plug in" in order to acquire a new loco. I didn't like this idea at all when I first heard about it. It seems to take a way a little bit of that freedom. But, I'm wondering, in actual practice just how inconvenient this is? Is it a nuisance? It sounds like you couldn't change locos very quickly. How long is the cord? Does this cord tend to get in your way?
jwils1 wrote: jalajoie wrote: At the club we have radio and once you have experienced this freeedom you can't go without it.I sure agree with this. Anyone cosidering a new system should consider that they may one day want radio. I know I do. I've been using the Lenz cordless phone and have experienced the freedom. So, I have a question about Digitrax radio:With Digitrax you have to "plug in" in order to acquire a new loco. I didn't like this idea at all when I first heard about it. It seems to take a way a little bit of that freedom. But, I'm wondering, in actual practice just how inconvenient this is? Is it a nuisance? It sounds like you couldn't change locos very quickly. How long is the cord? Does this cord tend to get in your way?
Yes you do. I have (7) utp5's to make it easier on the operators. This is a drawback but the system is about bullett proof. Major drawback is the fact that the t400r is on a battery diet that requires frequent feedings. I went to NiCads to cut down the cost of 9 volts.
My is I would get a "starter set" that had the Radio AND a DCS100 so you could get the readback from the loco on programming it. I have a very extensive DCC system all Digitrax and Tony's for breakers and rev loops. I can just let the computer run (2) trains and I can run one and not have a problem.
The FUN in DCC is the ability to make a loco run like the prototype ( can not belive I typed that word). If you would like to take the trains to the level of being able to use all the things the new sound loco's can do then you need to think:
JMRI Decoder Pro and Panle Pro (FREE)
CRC Loconet USB ($69.95?)
A computer to run decoder pro
SoundTraxx booster (or equal) $79.95? This is for the sound units
Then if you use the FREE Panel Pro (JMRI) you can develope a CTC in the future that looks like this.
I understand that this is BUT you realy need to look at ALL the options.
jwils1 wrote: I sure agree with this. Anyone cosidering a new system should consider that they may one day want radio. I know I do. I've been using the Lenz cordless phone and have experienced the freedom. So, I have a question about Digitrax radio:With Digitrax you have to "plug in" in order to acquire a new loco. I didn't like this idea at all when I first heard about it. It seems to take a way a little bit of that freedom. But, I'm wondering, in actual practice just how inconvenient this is? Is it a nuisance? It sounds like you couldn't change locos very quickly. How long is the cord? Does this cord tend to get in your way?
This is true, with Digitrax simplex communication protocole you have to be plugged in to acquire locos and built/break consists. To some this is a minus as oppose to other half duplex or full duplex systems. On the beneficial side however, the radio signal on simplex system can by regulation be stronger than half and full duplex. Therefore from day one Digitrax radio was not plaged with the poor range experienced by NCE users, I don't know about the EXPA range.
Now is it a nuisance in practice, not to me anyway, at the club and this is also true with other NCE clubs I frequent, we have plug in stations at many locations, not every one own a tetherless control, so plug in stations ares always readily availables. The cord is 10 inches long, therefore it is never in the way.
Digitrax DT throtles are in fact two throtles in one, that is you can control two trains simultaneously without resorting to the recall function. In a normal operation cession I will first built a consist of 3 locos to operate as a through train and control it from the left encoder of the handheld. After that I will built a second consist of 2 locos normally MP15DC that I will control on the right encoder of the throtle, this train will be switching a branch line. Now I control 5 locos simultaneously with one handheld. Obviously I will eventually store the through train on a hidden staging track and will resume its control after I am finished with the branch line operation, which takes normally 3 to 4 hours to complete. After I will then send the true train to its final destination which is a fiddle yard. And will plug in to break the consists and dispatch the engine.
As you can see I did plug in at the beginning of the cession and plug in again at the end of the cession some 3 to 4 hours later.
Hope You will excuse my poor English.
Milwhiawatha wrote:To be honest I started with an MC Command 2000 wayback then we got the Zephyr. Then begining of 2006 we got Digitrax Super Chief and I found it a lot easier to use. I like the fact i can program everthing easily on the hand helld that came with it.
That's pretty cool, George! Thanks for posting all that.
CraigN wrote: Milwhiawatha wrote:To be honest I started with an MC Command 2000 wayback then we got the Zephyr. Then begining of 2006 we got Digitrax Super Chief and I found it a lot easier to use. I like the fact i can program everthing easily on the hand helld that came with it.Now that you have the Super Chief- how much of the Zephyr do you use?
The Zephyr is a command station, throttle and booster all in one box. Having the DCS 100 of the Chief would render the command station portion of little use, but there is no reason why the booster could not be used as a slave 2.5A power district booster and the throttle controls could be used to run a train.
jalajoie wrote:Therefore from day one Digitrax radio was not plaged with the poor range experienced by NCE users, I don't know about the EXPA range.
jalajoie,
Does that only pertain to the older NCE wireless system? I remember reading that the improved NCE wireless system eliminated that problem that plagued the older wireless system.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. I believe the newer NCE wireless system uses a repeater (or multiple repeaters) to improve both the range and reception of the signal?