jalajoie wrote: jwils1 wrote: My interest in radio throttles led me to do this comparison for the least cost options for upgrading to radio for both Zepher and PowerCab:Zepher ($159.95) + UR91 ($114.95) + UT4R throttle (99.95) = $374.85PowerCab ($139.95) + RB02 ($124.95) + 04P-R throttle ($139.95) = $404.85Prices are from Tony's with no tax or shipping. There may be a few other small misc. items needed that I'm not aware of.Please feel free to correct me if I'm in error on any of this as I don't want to mislead anyone.I don't know if I am right, I am under the impression an SB3 is required to upgrade the Power Cab to radio. If so, an additional $108.00 (Tony's price with power supply) has to be added to the cost therefore the total would be $513.00 roughly. Please feel free to correct me also if I'm in error as I may be misleading here.
jwils1 wrote: My interest in radio throttles led me to do this comparison for the least cost options for upgrading to radio for both Zepher and PowerCab:Zepher ($159.95) + UR91 ($114.95) + UT4R throttle (99.95) = $374.85PowerCab ($139.95) + RB02 ($124.95) + 04P-R throttle ($139.95) = $404.85Prices are from Tony's with no tax or shipping. There may be a few other small misc. items needed that I'm not aware of.Please feel free to correct me if I'm in error on any of this as I don't want to mislead anyone.
My interest in radio throttles led me to do this comparison for the least cost options for upgrading to radio for both Zepher and PowerCab:
Zepher ($159.95) + UR91 ($114.95) + UT4R throttle (99.95) = $374.85
PowerCab ($139.95) + RB02 ($124.95) + 04P-R throttle ($139.95) = $404.85
Prices are from Tony's with no tax or shipping. There may be a few other small misc. items needed that I'm not aware of.
Please feel free to correct me if I'm in error on any of this as I don't want to mislead anyone.
I don't know if I am right, I am under the impression an SB3 is required to upgrade the Power Cab to radio. If so, an additional $108.00 (Tony's price with power supply) has to be added to the cost therefore the total would be $513.00 roughly.
Please feel free to correct me also if I'm in error as I may be misleading here.
You may be right but I did call NCE and they specifically told me that the SB3 is not required. Didn't get the name of the person I talked to but if anyone is seriously considering this they should probably call them also, or maybe call Tony's Train Exchange and see what they say.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
Jack W.
Jerry,
Only a minor one: The Power Cab is 1.7A instead of 1.5A.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Of course you need to consider all the other differences in the systems, such as have been already pointed out on this thread. There is much to be considered and not just price alone. Remember that Zepher is 2.5 amps and PowerCab is 1.5 amps. Note that the UTR4 throttle does allow you to access all functions F0 - F12. And of course there are more powerful radio throttles available for both systems.
One other thing to consider is that the UTR4R can't control DCC turnouts. I think that the 04P-R can but I'm not sure.
With command station assisted consisting there is a limit. The DCS100 can simulataneously address up to 120 locos, this is the limit for a consist as well.
With simple consisting, which is just setting multiple locos to the same address, there is no limit with ANY system - just the absolute power capacity of your boosters
With CV19 consisting, there are only 127 possible values for CV19 so there is a limit with any system of 127 consists. With true CV19 consisting, againt here is no limit to the number of locos in a given consist other than the power fo your system, since all commands are being sent to a single address.
Any other limits are artificial and from the software design of the command station.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks Joe for the input, obviously both you and Randy know much more about consisting then I do.
Now I know Digitrax has no restriction on the number of consist and number of locos in a Universal consist, why does NCE has limits on the number of loco a consist can have? I know MRC will only support 1 Universal consist, is there any limit with the Power Cab and Universal consisting?
Thanks Jack W.
Yes, it is very helpful to see that Digitrax does natively support CV19 consisting.
However, Digitrax takes an all-or-nothing approach -- either you do command station consists, or you do CV19 consists, but the system does not seamlessly handle both at the same time. NCE, Lenz, and EasyDCC allow both types of consisting from simple prompts on the command station and you can nest both types of consists (you have to use some trickery with EasyDCC, however), which is handy.
Unfortunately, setting Digitrax to default to CV19 decoder consisting will eliminate the ability for nesting consists, which severely limits the power of consisting, IMO.
The most flexible way to use Digitrax is to leave it at the default setting of command station consists and then plug CV19 by hand yourself directly for decoder consists. You will have to remember to add 128 to the consist number if you want the loco to run reverse when making up a decoder consist in this primitive fashion.
The Digitrax approach works, but it certainly qualifies as the least friendly of the consisting features across the big 4 systems. And the most friendly of the DCC systems with regards to consisting is clearly NCE, since it provides a rich feature set for dealing with either decoder-based or command station-based consists in any combination.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
rrinker wrote: Since I'm not a post ocunt hog, I'll address the other issue here - the Zephyr CAN and DOES support CV19 decoder-assited consisting. Liek the other Digitrax systems it does not do so by default, but can it can be switched on. The default mode is OpSw 17 set to CLOSED which disables autmatic CV19 consisting. Change this to THROWN turns on CV19 automatic CV19 consisting. I sy automatic because even witout this change, nothign prevents you from manyally setting a value in CV19 and creating a consist, the Zephyr will address it just fine. Withotu the change, using the MU button ont he Zephyr will only do command-station consting. Make the change, and the MU button does CV19 consisting. --Randy
Since I'm not a post ocunt hog, I'll address the other issue here - the Zephyr CAN and DOES support CV19 decoder-assited consisting. Liek the other Digitrax systems it does not do so by default, but can it can be switched on. The default mode is OpSw 17 set to CLOSED which disables autmatic CV19 consisting. Change this to THROWN turns on CV19 automatic CV19 consisting. I sy automatic because even witout this change, nothign prevents you from manyally setting a value in CV19 and creating a consist, the Zephyr will address it just fine. Withotu the change, using the MU button ont he Zephyr will only do command-station consting. Make the change, and the MU button does CV19 consisting.
I like this thread, well mannered, positive and informative I am learning some here.
Thanks Randy to point out the Zephyr does support CV19 consisting, I did look in the manuel and you are right. I must admit, I only looked into the manual when I first received my Zephyr and never consulted it afterward.
Don Gibson wrote: In that case, ONLY people who have had TWO (or more) different brands are qualified to offer 1st hand comparisons. Everybody, on the other hand has Opinions.
In that case, ONLY people who have had TWO (or more) different brands are qualified to offer 1st hand comparisons. Everybody, on the other hand has Opinions.
Don, on that basis hardly anyone is qualified to offer a comparison for this particular thread. The original question is about the Digitrax Zephyr and comparison of systems to it. As far as I know, Joe, whose opinions I respect greatly but don't always agree with, does not own, nor has ever owned a Zephyr system. At least a bunch of us that chimed in, do in fact own the very system the originator was asking about.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
jfugate wrote: rrinker wrote:CV19 consisting is a nice feature, but it is limited. If your tain or timetable numbers are all less than 127, you can use that number as the consist number, but CV19 is limited to values of 1-127. 129-255 is used for a loco that runs the opposite, way, say two diesels back to back. The above refers to how CV19 consisting is limited with Digitrax, and to a certain degree (although not quite as much) with EasyDCC.When you set up a decoder consist with NCE, the system prompts you for the lead and trailing loco numbers and then you refer to the decoder consist by the full 4-digit loco number of the end that is the front of the loco consist (if you pick the other end loco number, then that end automatically becomes the front). So while you can't have more than 127 such consists, you are not limited with NCE to referrring to the consist by some artificial number, you can still refer to the consist with the full 4-digit loco number.Very nice.This sort of behavior is what I mean when I say NCE has added a lot of very useful features to support CV19 decoder consisting and make it really easy, and you get the benefit of also minimizing command traffic on the rails as well. This helps keep the throttle response snappy if you have a lot of loco consists in operation. Lenz decoder consisting is not quite as nice as NCE's, but it is still easier to do a decoder consist with Lenz than it is with a Digitrax system. NCE, Lenz, and EasyDCC also support command station consisting and you can nest the consists. This will allow you to easily do some powerful consisting and deconsisting on the fly with locos similar to what Randy describes with nested command-station consists. Kind of the best of both worlds, IMO. Lower command traffic on the rails and flexible consisting options as well.
rrinker wrote:CV19 consisting is a nice feature, but it is limited. If your tain or timetable numbers are all less than 127, you can use that number as the consist number, but CV19 is limited to values of 1-127. 129-255 is used for a loco that runs the opposite, way, say two diesels back to back.
The above refers to how CV19 consisting is limited with Digitrax, and to a certain degree (although not quite as much) with EasyDCC.
When you set up a decoder consist with NCE, the system prompts you for the lead and trailing loco numbers and then you refer to the decoder consist by the full 4-digit loco number of the end that is the front of the loco consist (if you pick the other end loco number, then that end automatically becomes the front). So while you can't have more than 127 such consists, you are not limited with NCE to referrring to the consist by some artificial number, you can still refer to the consist with the full 4-digit loco number.
Very nice.
This sort of behavior is what I mean when I say NCE has added a lot of very useful features to support CV19 decoder consisting and make it really easy, and you get the benefit of also minimizing command traffic on the rails as well. This helps keep the throttle response snappy if you have a lot of loco consists in operation.
Lenz decoder consisting is not quite as nice as NCE's, but it is still easier to do a decoder consist with Lenz than it is with a Digitrax system.
NCE, Lenz, and EasyDCC also support command station consisting and you can nest the consists. This will allow you to easily do some powerful consisting and deconsisting on the fly with locos similar to what Randy describes with nested command-station consists. Kind of the best of both worlds, IMO. Lower command traffic on the rails and flexible consisting options as well.
Well, that's not exactly CV19 consistong, that's more like a version of command station assited consisting that uses CV19 to address the loco. I'd still like to see packet trace on that to see hwo they manage to individually address functions to one loco in a consist and yet use CV19 consisting. I suspect they may be addressing the lead loco then nesting it with a CV19 conist of the remaining loco. I have to try that with my Zephyr, but I believe you can address a loco that's in a CV19 consist by it's normal address as well (at least if it's a 4 digit address). A good idea, since it reduces the traffic, but not really crticial except in the largest of layouts. I think we did this is a thread a year or so ago, calculationg the theoretical delay with NMRA DCC. I was at one time under the impression the Digitrax built a special command station for The Model Railroad CLub that had more than the 120 slot sof the DCS100, simply because that club is so large that 120 throttles was not enough. I don;t thinkt hey had command lag evn then. So while cutting bandwidth usage is always good, I don;t think it's really an issue with a dozen or less operators.
The idea of the 'top' loco is pretty much exactly the same as the first loco you add to a consist with Digitrax. The only thing it doesn;t do it automatically swap to another loco when you reverse direction, that requires a manual operation with Digitrax. Of course you can avoid all button pushing and use the consist tool in JMRI.
Every system has its pros and cons. Some want 'easy pickens' - Ie: someone else to decide 'What's best' for YOU- based on what's best for THEM?.
I tend to agree withe two learned gentlemen: Sievert's reply to Tom Stage. Ie:
I see two problems .... First, my pros and cons, are just that, mine. What may be "better" in my situation or for my needs may not be better for someone else. Secondly, how can anyone make an informed decision if they can't compare between different brands
Secondly, how can anyone make an informed decision if they can't compare between different brands
I don't have DCC so MY opinions don't matter. Joe Fugate, on the other hand ...
1. Anyone wanting throttle MEMORY can have it, but probably won't want to pay it's additional cost. (Certainly most 'starter sets' won't offer that decision). MAKE up A list of 'what you wants' = then a list of what ' you're willing to pay for'. That's the list that counts.
I HAVE HAD 4 different DC throttles - so can offer comparisons - should anyone care. - (I thought not).
ALL throttles work. Right? Is my $400 one better than my $79.95? Yup! It has digital sound and variable momentum.
jwils1 wrote: I'm considering getting a smaller starter set to use on a separate N scale layout. I may not be getting into N scale sound any time soon but I would want the option of quickly going to any loco in the consist to operate functions, like I do with Lenz. I'm trying to decide between PowerCab or Zepher, with the option of going to radio at some point.
I'm considering getting a smaller starter set to use on a separate N scale layout. I may not be getting into N scale sound any time soon but I would want the option of quickly going to any loco in the consist to operate functions, like I do with Lenz. I'm trying to decide between PowerCab or Zepher, with the option of going to radio at some point.
Just a word of caution, the Zephyr only support Universal Consisting, also known as Old Style Consisting. But as Randy pointed out, you will be able to achieve all your goals with this type of consisting.
Also if radio is a future option, I would suggest you look into the Digitrax Super Chief. At 5a it might be a bit overkill for your needs but all type of consisting will be available to you. Beside, the cost of upgrading the Zephyr to radio with a DT400R, is only $100 less than the Super Chief Radio will cost you. Just a though.
You cna do the same thing with Digitrax. In fact, with one of the DT throttles it's SUPER easy since the DT throttles actually are dual throttles and can have active control over two locos at once. On one knob, you have the consist, so you can control the speed and direction. On the other knob you have the sound boxcar so you cna activate the sounds
Or just create the consist using the boxcar's address as the first 'loco' in the consist and it will get all function commands. This is where command station consisting is MUCH easier then CV19 consisting, there are absolutely no issues as to what functions work in CV19 consisting, and which loco gets those funcitons. CV19 consisting basically gives each decoder int he consist a different address (in CV19) and the decoders can be (in most cases) configured as to which functions operate in consist (ie, 2 sound locos, you probably don't want both ringing bells and blowing horns, but you DO want engine and brake sounds from both). For decoders that support it, there are additional CVs to configure which, if any, functions operate in CV19 consisting mode.
CV19 consisting is a nice feature, but it is limited. If your tain or timetable numbers are all less than 127, you can use that number as the consist number, but CV19 is limited to values of 1-127. 129-255 is used for a loco that runs the opposite, way, say two diesels back to back. The lead unit heading forward would get CV19 set to 1, the second unit running reverse would have CV19 set to 129. Command station sonsisting does a lot more - at least with Digitrax you can even nest one consist inside another - say a three-unit consist on the front that picks up a 2-unit consist as helpers. You cna just add the 2 unit consist tot he original 3 unit consist to control all 5, then drop off the 2-unit consist at the top of the hill and continue on with your 3-unit consist.
I would like to recommend the MRC Prodigy's. Seriously, it took me only 5 min to convert to DCC, it's that easy. Just plug in the power and then hook up 2 wires to the tracks and you are done. I have the Advanced and if you just want a entry level, you can get the Express and it's just as easy. And you can buy the Advanced cabs later if you want more functions so expansio path is also good. Plus they also offer upgrade to their upcoming Advanced II with 28 mapped functions at a small fee for any existing current Prodigy system.
jfugate wrote: jwils1 wrote: Joe: Okay, that is very helpful. So I assume that if all my present decoders allow running the train's speed/direction from any loco or box car address in the consist on the Lenz system, then they will work the same way on NCE. Is that correct?Jerry:Not sure what you mean by "running the train's speed/direction from any loco address in the consist". I understand that you have sound decoders in box cars and consist them in now with a Lenz system. What I don't get is why you would want to use different addresses to also control a consist. You may have to explain in more detail what you are trying to do now with Lenz since it sounds rather unorthodox -- either that or I'm just not following you.
jwils1 wrote: Joe: Okay, that is very helpful. So I assume that if all my present decoders allow running the train's speed/direction from any loco or box car address in the consist on the Lenz system, then they will work the same way on NCE. Is that correct?
Okay, that is very helpful. So I assume that if all my present decoders allow running the train's speed/direction from any loco or box car address in the consist on the Lenz system, then they will work the same way on NCE. Is that correct?
Jerry:
Not sure what you mean by "running the train's speed/direction from any loco address in the consist". I understand that you have sound decoders in box cars and consist them in now with a Lenz system.
What I don't get is why you would want to use different addresses to also control a consist. You may have to explain in more detail what you are trying to do now with Lenz since it sounds rather unorthodox -- either that or I'm just not following you.
I'm sorry that I'm not making it clear. Consisting on the Lenz LH100 throttle is very simple and quick for me. I have a consist address plus each loco address that I can call up. Then by cycling thru these addresses by pressing the (-) key I can quickly go to an loco address in the consist. I can then operate any of that locos functions and can also control speed/direction of the train from that loco's address.
So, when I want to use a sound box car, I simply add it to the consist, even if there is only one loco involved. Then by running the train's speed/direction from the box car address its sound revs up and down according to the train's speed, and of course I can whistle and bell as needed. This doesn't work without consisting, unless the box car and a loco have the same address.
So all the time I'm running that consist I just stay on the box car address except when I want to turn lights on or off on any of the locos. This all works great on the Lenz Set 100.
CraigN wrote: Milwhiawatha wrote:To be honest I started with an MC Command 2000 wayback then we got the Zephyr. Then begining of 2006 we got Digitrax Super Chief and I found it a lot easier to use. I like the fact i can program everthing easily on the hand helld that came with it.Now that you have the Super Chief- how much of the Zephyr do you use?
Milwhiawatha wrote:To be honest I started with an MC Command 2000 wayback then we got the Zephyr. Then begining of 2006 we got Digitrax Super Chief and I found it a lot easier to use. I like the fact i can program everthing easily on the hand helld that came with it.
Actually the Zephyr is used on the Christmas layout so once a year.
jwils1 wrote:Joe:Okay, that is very helpful. So I assume that if all my present decoders allow running the train's speed/direction from any loco or box car address in the consist on the Lenz system, then they will work the same way on NCE. Is that correct?
Joe:
tstage wrote: Stevert wrote:It's an issue that folks should be aware of so they can make an informed decision, just like the analog ability discussed earlier in this thread. Everyone doesn't have the same requirements for a DCC system. In some cases it may sway their decision, in others maybe not. SteveSteve,I'm wondering if you would do me a favor. Would you be willing to honestly list your pros and cons (or strengths and weaknesses) of the Zephyr here on this thread so that folks can "make an informed decision"? The only constraints are:You can ONLY mention Digitrax products and their features (and shortcomings, if any).No other manufacturer's names are to be used, referred, or alluded to. (That way the focus and comparison is entirely concentrated on the Zephyr.)Would you be up to doing that? Thanks. Tom
Stevert wrote:It's an issue that folks should be aware of so they can make an informed decision, just like the analog ability discussed earlier in this thread. Everyone doesn't have the same requirements for a DCC system. In some cases it may sway their decision, in others maybe not. Steve
Steve
Steve,
I'm wondering if you would do me a favor. Would you be willing to honestly list your pros and cons (or strengths and weaknesses) of the Zephyr here on this thread so that folks can "make an informed decision"? The only constraints are:
Tom,
I see two problems with that. First, my pros and cons, are just that, mine. What may be "better" in my situation or for my needs may not be better for someone else.
Secondly, how can anyone make an informed decision if they can't compare between different brands?
What I've tried to do in this thread is point out that in order to make an informed decision, folks need to be aware that there are differences between the various manufacturer's products, and that based on those differences they may want to choose one brand over the other.
But then I get bashed because I pointed out that there's a difference between unplugging and re-plugging a throttle vs. disconnecting your entire command station.
Nobody bashes CVP for making a stationary command station/throttle combination. The obvious reason is because nobody expects you to have to unplug your whole command station and lug it around, whether it has a throttle on it or not.
But when I mention that since the PowerCab has the opposite form-factor (command station in a tethered throttle), it can't be un/re-plugged, and everyone raises cain!
Sorry, but I'm out of this thread.
jwils1 wrote:Can you operate any of the light/sound functions for any loco in a consist by just calling up that loco's specific address while the train is moving?Can you run the train's speed and direction by calling up any one of the loco addresses in the consist or can you only run the train from the consist address?The reason for question 2 is because I have a couple of sound box cars that I like to match up with non-sound locos by consisting them together. I like to run the train from the box car address so I don't have to switch back and forth to adjust speed/direction while using the horn or bell. Lenz will allow this.
The reason for question 2 is because I have a couple of sound box cars that I like to match up with non-sound locos by consisting them together. I like to run the train from the box car address so I don't have to switch back and forth to adjust speed/direction while using the horn or bell. Lenz will allow this.
To answer your questions:
1. Whether or not you can call up the address of a specific unit in the consist and have only it respond to a function depends on the decoder features and the CV settings you make. For instance, most decoders beyond simple fleet level have a "respond to consist address" setting for each function.
Depending on how this feature works in the decoder and whether or not you have turned this feature on, you may or may not be able to get a single loco in the consist to respond to a function key. In other words, you will have to get a decoder and do some trial and error testing to see if you can get it to do what you want.
2. You CAN NOT cause the entire consist to respond to a request if you attempt to only address one of the locos in the consist. At best, that one loco will respond to the request, and the rest of the consist will ignore it.
This all also depends on the type of consisting you have used to create the consist. There are three ways to create a consist:
1. Address consisting: Simply set the decoder address of all the locos to be the same. While this is simple in concept, it is a good way to end up with a mess if you try any programming on the main because all the consisted locos will respond to the programming commands. If the decoder types and CVs are different, you will create a real programming mess, so this form of consisting is not recommended unless you know what you are doing.
2. Command station consisting: The locos are consisted together in the command station so it sends the same commands to all the locos at once. This method of consisting allows for very different types of decoders to all be consisted together. However the more consists of this type you create, the more command traffic you get on the rails, which can slow system response if you have a lot of these consists.
Digitrax depends primarily on command station consists, and EasyDCC, until recently, also preferred command station consists.
3. Decoder consisting: The locos are consisted together in the decoders by storing the consist address in CV19. This kind of consist, since it is at the decoder level, travels with the loco and will still be in place on another DCC layout since it's stored in the decoder. This creates less command traffic on the rails, since one command is sent to the entire consist. However, different types of decoders may have different feature sets around decoder consists, so there may be some inconsistencies in how the locos perform.
NCE's system has many sophisticated features around decoder consisting (like automatic double-ended consisting -- a real boon for modeling modern diesel lashups), and Lenz prefers decoder consisting as well although does not offer all the nice features of NCE. Recently EasyDCC has made the switch to prefer decoder consisting, but Digitrax tends not to provide many built in features around decoder consisting, preferring instead command station consisting. With Digitrax, to do a decoder consist, you may have to program CV19 directly yourself, since they provide little in the way of automated features to support decoder consists.
Hope that helps.
We're getting some very helpful information for comparing Zepher and PowerCab on this thread. I really appreciate it.
Now I have a couple of consisting questions for both systems:
tstage wrote: jalajoie, Does that only pertain to the older NCE wireless system? I remember reading that the improved NCE wireless system eliminated that problem that plagued the older wireless system.Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. I believe the newer NCE wireless system uses a repeater (or multiple repeaters) to improve both the range and reception of the signal? Tom
jalajoie,
Does that only pertain to the older NCE wireless system? I remember reading that the improved NCE wireless system eliminated that problem that plagued the older wireless system.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. I believe the newer NCE wireless system uses a repeater (or multiple repeaters) to improve both the range and reception of the signal?
Tom you are quite correct I was refferring to the very first NCE wireless, my bad because I am very aware of the High gain antennas and repeaters NCE users must use in order to have adequate range and reception of the signal.
I do know repeaters are not cheap, therefore the wireless system for a large layout may be a bit too expensive. I visit on a regular basis 3 NCE layout, only one went with the added cost of repeaters the other two just ignored the wireless option. Now this may be irrelevent to a small home layout.
This is why I posted, I know what is needed and the cost to upgrade the Zephyr to wireless. Now can someone post what is needed and the cost to upgrade the PowerCab to radio.
jalajoie wrote:Therefore from day one Digitrax radio was not plaged with the poor range experienced by NCE users, I don't know about the EXPA range.
The Zephyr is a command station, throttle and booster all in one box. Having the DCS 100 of the Chief would render the command station portion of little use, but there is no reason why the booster could not be used as a slave 2.5A power district booster and the throttle controls could be used to run a train.
That's pretty cool, George! Thanks for posting all that.