Shawnee- Interesting rant. I've been following this thread with some interest. There's something that's not quite accurate though. When ever you order something on your credit card, (from hobby shops, online stores, Sears, K Tel records, Ronco, any TV ad), They ALWAYS charge your credit card up front to make sure your not over your limit and so they will get their money BEFORE they process the order. This applies to all credit card taking companies, not just online hobby stores. Remember the old TV line "allow 4-6 weeks for delivery" ? Companies would wait untill they had enough of YOUR cash before they would order the product and ship it out to you. They would wait till they had enough orders to ship under a postal bulk rate so they made more money on the shipping you pre paid. People sound like they think this is something new when it's not.
Also, Steve admitted in his post that what they show as "in stock" is directly related to what Walthers shows as in stock.(he said they check it 2-3 times a week) He said they also have a large inventory themselves. So your talking about one company trusting the word of a second company that's probably trusting the word of a third company as to what's "in stock". Can you see how fast things can go wrong there? I don't see how Walthers can advertise sale items that they themselves don't have in stock?
Another thing I don't understand is how people say brick and mortor stores can't compete with online stores. The online store I buy from also has a brick and mortor store. He has the best prices online that I've found and these are the same prices he charges in his physical store. Half the time he doesn't even charge S&H if your order is big enough.(around $100) He's been around a while and is doing fine, so it CAN be done. I guess some LHS's just don't know how to or don't want to.
Some of the posters here that had the most problems with this company turned around and said they'd give them a second chance once they received they're orders. I guess they're more forgiving then I am. I won't even place a first order with this company after what I've read here.
Loathar, I totally agree with you about local hobby shops. I think the local hobby shops that also have solid internet stores are the ones best positioned to grow. They can take the volume scale of their internet sales and lower prices for their local customers, and also benefit on the internet from the credibility of having an actual physical location. LHS' that haven't adopted to the internet age, or insist on charging prices that are way out of line with the overall market (which is influenced by the internet)...well, business, like life, is often survival of the most adaptable. While I think it's ok to charge a bit for credibility, responsibility and consitency, and I'm willing to pay a small premium to ensure honesty, reliability and integrity of the transaction, it's just that you can't way overcharge for that...there are too many other credible options, you have to remain in a relatively competitive stance, and this is where a lot of LHS fail. They can't adapt.
On the Walthers sale items not being in stock on their site, admittedly, that is sort of weird. But it's my understanding that they have a network of participating stores, which they reference as a list, where the product is supposedly available at the advertised price. In terms of having a synergy between a physical distribution network and an online site, it's better than most. And at least Walthers lets you know, unambiguously, that the item is not in stock on their site.
As far as the charging to check your limit and the processing of the order, in actuality this is one and the same process, different parts of the order processing. They should know how much they can legitimately charge, that which they can fulfill with existing stock. The first step is to check their existing stock, not to charge the client's account! No reputable company charges your "order" in full, essentially fully cashing your order, and then checks to see if they have the item which they just monetized. That's why you should see a "backorder" for an item not available, and the company should just check your credit limit to the level which they legitimately can charge...for stuff they intend to and can actually ship. It is just not sound business practice to do otherwise, and never would hold up under accounting scrutiny.
The thing with Sears, K-Tel and the other examples, they're advertising for stuff they actually have to offer...
The 4-6 weeks delivery time is usually do to either an absurdly slow business process or distribution network, or more commonly, an safety valve to ensure that customers' fast-turnaround expectations are dampened...like on-time arrival estimates from airlines that pad their timing by 30 minutes so they're more often than not ever "late". Of course, um, airline assurances are the most credible example.
4-6 weeks delivery time is just a caveat mantra for most companies, and is rapidly outdated. Most of the time you get in about 2 weeks (unless you are quite remote), which is pretty standard for a company with some scale of order volume...and about the time it takes to process order, identify inventory for shipment, package shipment and process shipment through a third party vendor like UPS or USPS. Waiting for bulk rate discounts, unless shipments are all going to one place or location it's rare that there is a discount for bulk. Bulk means bulk...a large shipment going directly to one place.
And yes, it is true that almost every company makes money on their "shipping & handling" charges. There is profit built into shipping charges, which of course usually only show up after you've made the decision to "purchase", it's the way they get their discounts back. It's an age-old marketing gimmick.
I also agree with you, I don't mess with companies or E-Bay sellers with sketchy reputations. Why bother? It's just not worth the risk of the ten or at most fifteen bucks you'll save over another, more legitimate internet site. And I don't want my credit card info in the hands of someone who either doesn't know what he is doing, or is employing unethical business practices. One way or the other, it's trouble.
Most companies will do a CC hold but, do not charge your card until your order ships. Internettrains, CHARGED my card the same day I ordered and NEVER sent my order, period. MUCH later, after many emails and several calls I was able to get them to state that they had NO idea when my order would ship, or I should say when they would have the items to ship. On their behalf, I canceled the order and WAS refunded with in a week. This was over a 3-4 month period.
I have found MANY reputable shops out there and will never deal with Internettrains again.
I will say that they haven't charged my CC as yet, but naturally they did "tickle" the account to ensure that it's valid. They FINALLY (after about 6 weeks) answered an email (my 12th) to say that the merchandise "has been sold out" but will "become available in 7-10 days." This was over a week ago, and still no action. All the while, the items have been shown as "Available" on their Web site. I guess their definition of "Available" is somewhat different from mine.
Of course, their order tracking page still "can't locate" my order, either. What a farce!
Shawnee-I just placed a $200 order for tractor parts from Sears. Only 1/2 of the parts were in stock. I got that 1/2 in 2 weeks and the other 1/2 a week later. I just checked the CC statement and they charged me for the whole thing the day I placed the order. Not 2 weeks later when they started shipping.(and that's Sears)
I know about the bulk rate stuff. We used to ship bulk rate for our customers at a print shop I managed.(let them use our bulk permit #) We always had to wait till our customer had enough orders to meet the post office minimum. I know OUR customers were charging THEIR customers up front. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying it does happen a lot. I think a lot of has to do with companies earning interest on your funds while they sit in their bank.(again...I'm not saying it's right.)
Loathar, that's odd with Sears, I would have guessed they operated on an "actual" accounting basis, on when things shipped (starting within their inventory system, not necessarily to the freight vendor yet). Well yes, that's Sears, but it was within your three weeks. On a separate note, it's sad how Sears have declined. I heard that some financier bought them and has started using their cash flow for investment speculation, and is not reinvesting in the stores or marketing. They've gone through several owners lately. I used to really like Craftsman tools. I think Sears will bite the dust in some future year.
We agree on avoiding internet stores with shaky reputations, like internettrains.com! Funny thing is, there was a post on the forum this week by some chap who made his first internet purchase, and understandably upbeat about it. Too bad it was with internettrains.com. I hope he has a better experience with them than, say, the 50% of people on this post who were frustrated and poorly served. Anything around a 50/50 satisfactory score ain't too good for a store, eh?
I'm sure it's the drawing interest on YOUR money thing. This is why the FED made banks stop holding your funds for 7-10 days untill your check "cleared". With electronic transfer, checks "clear" in less than a day.(if not minutes). They were making a sick ammount of $$$ on the interest.
Here's one you probably don't know. Geico Insurance doesn't keep their funds in conventional banks.They have a 50-60 BILLION dollar priceless art collection instead. The CEO recently built a 25 million dollar mansion that rivals Bill Gates. (and they say insurance companies don't make money.)
My father opened a printing company about 20 years ago. He told the family " If honsty and hard work count for anything, We'll be successful!" We crashed and burned in less than 2 years. It was the lieing, cut throat, back stabbers that succeeded. Even though their customers complained about their quality and sevice, they still went back for the price. Kind of reminds me of this thread.
Joe.L wrote:Paul, get out while you can. I heard 7 -10 days for along time..
They told me I should get my order next week, well next week never comes!
I placed two orders with them and ended up cancelling both because they kept comming up with excuses why the shippment was delayed.
Bill
Loathar, that's odd with Sears, I would have guessed they operated on an "actual" accounting basis, on when things shipped (starting within their inventory system, not necessarily to the freight vendor yet). Well yes, that's Sears, but it was within your three weeks. On a separate note, it's sad how Sears have declined. I heard that some financier bought them and has started using their cash flow for investment speculation, and is not reinvesting in the stores or marketing.
It's not your fathers Sears anymore. They were bought out by the K-Mart crooks. You know the ones. They filed bankruptcy, and screwed their stockholders out of millions. Then they came out of bankruptcy, sold new stock, bought Sears, and the new stock is up around $150.
Craig
DMW
Unfortunately, it's not always that simple. InternetTrains lists every product on their Web site as "Available." Obviously, their definition of "available" means something like "Yes, it's possibly still being manufactured, and if we can find it we might ship it in the next few months -- maybe."
Many online dealers' sites make use of real-time inventory deallocation, so it's possible to *really* see what's in stock and what's not. I've had good luck with several of them and will simply stick to those in the future. InternetTrains is now on my permanent "DO NOT PATRONIZE" list.
There's the operative word: available.
And yes, many sites say they are "in stock" when they are not. Even some of the wholesalers (not available to the public) do that.
My point is, either through personal experience or through forums such as this one, one finds out pretty fast whether or not the claim is legit.
If you get burned and you go back to them, you are only encouraging that behaviour!
It has been, and I hope it is still, a federal requirement that a business that accepts your money and does not or cannot send you your item(s) within 30 days must either refund your money or ask you in writing if you wish to wait longer for shipment. If someone feels that they have been wronged in this matter, I suggest that you send a certified letter (keeping a copy) to the company asking for your money back. If you don't receive it, contact the Post Office--I believe that once you have used the mails in dealing with this company (see certified letter above), the Post Office can become involved under the claim of mail fraud.
Ed
7j43k wrote: It has been, and I hope it is still, a federal requirement that a business that accepts your money and does not or cannot send you your item(s) within 30 days must either refund your money or ask you in writing if you wish to wait longer for shipment. If someone feels that they have been wronged in this matter, I suggest that you send a certified letter (keeping a copy) to the company asking for your money back. If you don't receive it, contact the Post Office--I believe that once you have used the mails in dealing with this company (see certified letter above), the Post Office can become involved under the claim of mail fraud. Ed
I finally spoke with a customer service rep a few weeks ago about my three-plus month old orders. Evidently they did receive at least one of my emails where I requested that they cancel the outstanding order. The sales rep told me that an email had been sent to me confirming the cancellation of my order. As you might imagine, I never received that email. But wait, it gets even better. I asked how I was going to be refunded for my cancelled order to which the sales rep told me that they could not refund my credit card because they are now using a "new" form of billing/accounting but that they could refund my Pay Pal account. Of course, the LAST thing I wanted to do is to give these people my Pay Pal account number so I asked what other forms of reimbursement were available to which the sales rep said that they could send me a check BUT that "the lady who writes the checks only comes in once a week, so we'll leave a note for her." Needless to say, it's been over two weeks and I haven't seen a check.
I filed a complaint with the BBB and they recently sent me a letter stating that the issue had been resolved. SO, not only are the people at Internet Trains feeding a line of lies to their customers, but they're also lying to the BBB.
Interesting to note the Mr. Guccione has been conspicuously silent over these recent posts. To say that their business practices border on criminal may not be an understatement at this point. It's such a shame that these companies are allowed to remain in business particularly in this hobby where I've dealt with some of the most honest and decent people around. Please help spread the word. I'd hate to see more decent hobbyist be taken by the unscrupulous people at Internet Trains.
Yeah. Finally, today, I got a phone message, followed by an email saying WE'RE TRYING TO SHIP YOUR ORDER (shouting exactly as sent), but "our system deleted your credit card information after 30 days." Yeah, right.
I took this as a good sign and simply cancelled the long-standing order. I could manufacture the stuff myself faster than these guys ship.
Lesson learned. Never again.
A pretty face. They have a classy-looking Web site, low prices, and show nearly everything they sell as "Available," which, apparently, is seldom the case.
I suspect that they get a lot of first-time suckers...er, customers...but generate very few repeat sales.
Dallas Model Works wrote: There's the operative word: available.And yes, many sites say they are "in stock" when they are not. Even some of the wholesalers (not available to the public) do that.My point is, either through personal experience or through forums such as this one, one finds out pretty fast whether or not the claim is legit.If you get burned and you go back to them, you are only encouraging that behaviour!
Craig,Is that akin to that old saying:"Your dealer can get it from Walthers"?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE wrote: Dallas Model Works wrote: There's the operative word: available.And yes, many sites say they are "in stock" when they are not. Even some of the wholesalers (not available to the public) do that.My point is, either through personal experience or through forums such as this one, one finds out pretty fast whether or not the claim is legit.If you get burned and you go back to them, you are only encouraging that behaviour! Craig,Is that akin to that old saying:"Your dealer can get it from Walthers"?
Well, even Walthers doesn't have everything they list in stock although they are pretty good at keeping their web site up-to-date, inventory-wise.
This is because a lot of products are pre-sold to distributors, dealers and even the public before the production run begins. The product is produced and, once sold out, is essentially no longer available. Only if there is a big demand for a product will there be further production runs.
Even "staple" products -- think Walthers buildings or Digitrax components -- can on occasion go out of stock and become unavailable. This is simply because the demand has exceeded the rate of the manufacturer's production schedule. The product will be available again; it will just take a bit of time.
As I said, a lot of internet retailers simply list a huge number of products that they just don't have in stock. You order it and then they try to get it from a distributor who, for the reasons noted above, doesn't have it either.
For me personally, I buy things for my layout as soon as I discover them. Too often in the past, I've waited and then lost out. It makes my wife crazy. ;-)
c
Well another sucker is born. Yes I did it before reading these posts. Sent an order in on 5-4-07. Their website said it was in process as or 5-22-07. My paypal account was billed on 5-4. I contacted them on 5-22 via telephone after 4 attempts. I was told the order was complete and would be shipped 5-23. As of 5-24 their website indicated that the order was still in process. I e-mailed the "webmaster" as suggested in these posts and amazingly I received an E-mail from Steve about an hour later stating the order was being shipped (5-24 nor 5-23 as I was originally told). As of tonight the UPS tracking number I was given indicates that the package is not yet shipped. Only billing informarion recieved by UPS. Granted once in awhile UPS doesn't scan a package on initial pickup but I find this interesting in light of everything else.
Buyer beware....
I am not sure if it is a federal violation to charge a credit card, before the product is shipped, but most reputable companies will not charge your card, until they actually ship the product.
Internet Trains bills your credit card immediately when the order is placed. They also "forget" to credit your card back, when you cancel an order, unless you call back several times to check on it.
popeye9941 wrote: I am not sure if it is a federal violation to charge a credit card, before the product is shipped, but most reputable companies will not charge your card, until they actually ship the product. Internet Trains bills your credit card immediately when the order is placed. They also "forget" to credit your card back, when you cancel an order, unless you call back several times to check on it.
It isn't a federal regulation to deliver goods and services at the time the card is changred but it is an operating regulation of the card network. Here are Visa's merchant regulations.
http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/rules_for_visa_merchants.pdf
While it is 143 pages, the pertinent section is Delivery of Goods and Services on page 11. A merchant can have their ability to take cards revoked if the card issuer bank or Visa starts getting complaints. The section says:
Deliver the merchandise or services to the cardholder at the time of the transaction . Cardholders expect immediate delivery of good and services unless other delivery arrangements have been made . For card-not-present transactions, cardholders should be informed of delivery method and tentative delivery date . Transactions cannot be deposited until goods or services have been delivered .
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
jbinkley60 wrote: It isn't a federal regulation to deliver goods and services at the time the card is changred but it is an operating regulation of the card network. Here are Visa's merchant regulations.http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/rules_for_visa_merchants.pdf
That's one reason outfits of, well, limited integrity, tend to prefer PayPal. AFAIK, PayPal has no such requirements. In fact most PayPal merchants won't ship until they're sure that they've received the cash *up* *front*.
pturvill wrote:That's one reason outfits of, well, limited integrity, tend to prefer PayPal. AFAIK, PayPal has no such requirements. In fact most PayPal merchants won't ship until they're sure that they've received the cash *up* *front*.
What's PayPal got to do with it? Internettrains doesn't use PayPal.
PayPal is owned by eBay and as most of you know, eBay's entire existence relies on goodwill and trust. They're not going to let scam artists use their service.
The real problem is companies that claim to have items in stock but don't, charge you immediately anyway and then attempt to get the product from a distributor.
If Internettrains really is so bad, why do people continue to go there?
Dallas Model Works wrote: pturvill wrote:That's one reason outfits of, well, limited integrity, tend to prefer PayPal. AFAIK, PayPal has no such requirements. In fact most PayPal merchants won't ship until they're sure that they've received the cash *up* *front*.What's PayPal got to do with it? Internettrains doesn't use PayPal. PayPal is owned by eBay and as most of you know, eBay's entire existence relies on goodwill and trust. They're not going to let scam artists use their service.The real problem is companies that claim to have items in stock but don't, charge you immediately anyway and then attempt to get the product from a distributor.If Internettrains really is so bad, why do people continue to go there?
I think his point was that Paypal's regulations aren't as tight as Visa's. He is likely right. If you read all 143 pages there are a number of things that many merchants do and have done that are against their regulations (i.e. setting minimum charge levels, surcharges etc..). Also the chargebacks (or contesting of charges) rights almost all go to the buyer, which works except when you have shady customers. It puts quite a burden on merchants that take Visa, especially if they deal across the Internet, where they don't actually get the card presented at the time of the sale. If everyone was honest (merchants and customers alike) it wouldn't take 143 pages of rules. OTOH I suspect that there is a higher percentage of dishonest customers than merchants, you just don't hear it reported. Visa and Mastecard don't publish their losses due to fraud but they are staggering. Dishonest merchants eventually go out of business. Dishonest customers will keep trying to scam the system until they get caught.
Dallas Model Works wrote: pturvill wrote:That's one reason outfits of, well, limited integrity, tend to prefer PayPal. AFAIK, PayPal has no such requirements. In fact most PayPal merchants won't ship until they're sure that they've received the cash *up* *front*. The real problem is companies that claim to have items in stock but don't, charge you immediately anyway and then attempt to get the product from a distributor.If Internettrains really is so bad, why do people continue to go there?
There are so many people on the web and many have not heard of the problem. I do not personally know any modelers that reads this forum frequently, and many don't realize a problem is going on with Internet trains until they purchase from them.
When I first looked at their list, they had items on it that had been sold out for months at the distributors, but stated it usually takes five to seven days if the item is not in stock. In my case, I believed it be sales talk or BS that was not true so I did not order anything from them.
A second reason I skipped purchasing from them is after i looked at their web page, I did not find a phone number to place my order. Two red flags for me with a discount house is the advertising hype and lack of a phone number so I can talk to a human voice. It is not a fool proof system, but once you talk to someone, a confidence level can be developed.
They might have an ordering number now, but not two years of so ago when I considered an order to them.
Any company that charges you for an item not in stock and then orders the item with your money is not honest with business dealings. I do not object to placing a deposit on special order items if I order something from a LHS that does not normally stock that item, but to charge me fully for the item without it being shipped is not to be tolerated.
This Post is getting long in the tooth, but it has probably saved some of our forum members from getting burned or delayed for months on their shipments.
Dallas Model Works wrote: What's PayPal got to do with it? Internettrains doesn't use PayPal.
No? The following is lifted directly from their "policies" page:
Payment Methods:We accept Master Card, Visa, Discover, American Express, PayPal and eChecks. We do not charge your credit card until your order ships.