Dave Loman
My site: The Rusty Spike
"It's a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 2 cents in.... hey, someone's making a penny!"
...only way to kill trolls is acid or fire...fire works better - makes'em crispy and they taste good with ketchup
er.. wait.. no.. thats for D&D... though it might work here too...
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Stevearino wrote: Just want to get this out... Please don't feed the troll....
Just want to get this out...
Please don't feed the troll....
As much as I'd like to right about now; you're right...
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
mlehman wrote:Sorry, but as an historian, I've got to beg to differ. There was certainly a lot of "chatter" about the possibility of an attack somewhere in the Pacific, but there was nothing certain in hand in decoded and translated form that would have been actionable intel in time to mobilize the defenses in Hawaii on that fateful Sunday morning. The general in charge of the defenses in Hawaii was sacked, but later reviews largely cleared him. There was little that could have been done, given the weak defenses present on the islands anyway, unless warned in enough time for the fleet to put to sea. And that is a very big project, much more than jumping in the car and keying the ignition.In fact, as someone mentioned, Admiral Yamamoto was personally reticent about the attack because he was familiar with American culture and knew he'd be smacking a hornet's nest. However, he still executed a masterful plan that --partly -- did what it was it was supposed to, cripple the Pacific Fleet. As was mentioned, it was more lucky coincidence than anything that the US carriers were at sea. The returning Japanese pilots brought Adm. Y. the bad news -- the carriers were not at Pearl, confirming thatthe tactical success of his plan that day was matched by strategic failure for Japan.Most historians take a far more nuanced view of Pearl Harbor these days than in the past, but I'd have to agree that those who regard the whole thing as a setup by FDR to drag us into war are generally considered to be on the fringe, if not outright conspiracy theorists. The documentary record indicates that FDR saw war coming, wanted to get a very isolationst US public brought around to the idea that the US must act, but he desperately wanted to delay war at least a year past when iot actually began and even then to try avoid war in the Pacific with Japan, if possible, in order to concentrate on Europe. This was because the British were barely hanging on and if they collapsed, the USSR would then fall, too, leaving the US as the sole power against the Axis block. As it happened, the Japanese forced FDR's hand, but still Europe remained a priority for the Allies until late 1944.
Sorry, but as an historian, I've got to beg to differ. There was certainly a lot of "chatter" about the possibility of an attack somewhere in the Pacific, but there was nothing certain in hand in decoded and translated form that would have been actionable intel in time to mobilize the defenses in Hawaii on that fateful Sunday morning. The general in charge of the defenses in Hawaii was sacked, but later reviews largely cleared him. There was little that could have been done, given the weak defenses present on the islands anyway, unless warned in enough time for the fleet to put to sea. And that is a very big project, much more than jumping in the car and keying the ignition.
In fact, as someone mentioned, Admiral Yamamoto was personally reticent about the attack because he was familiar with American culture and knew he'd be smacking a hornet's nest. However, he still executed a masterful plan that --partly -- did what it was it was supposed to, cripple the Pacific Fleet. As was mentioned, it was more lucky coincidence than anything that the US carriers were at sea. The returning Japanese pilots brought Adm. Y. the bad news -- the carriers were not at Pearl, confirming thatthe tactical success of his plan that day was matched by strategic failure for Japan.
Most historians take a far more nuanced view of Pearl Harbor these days than in the past, but I'd have to agree that those who regard the whole thing as a setup by FDR to drag us into war are generally considered to be on the fringe, if not outright conspiracy theorists. The documentary record indicates that FDR saw war coming, wanted to get a very isolationst US public brought around to the idea that the US must act, but he desperately wanted to delay war at least a year past when iot actually began and even then to try avoid war in the Pacific with Japan, if possible, in order to concentrate on Europe. This was because the British were barely hanging on and if they collapsed, the USSR would then fall, too, leaving the US as the sole power against the Axis block. As it happened, the Japanese forced FDR's hand, but still Europe remained a priority for the Allies until late 1944.
Mike,
please excuse that I am late. I appreciate your answer. I learned from it. Thank you. But please understand that - though it is nice to read that today that topic is viewed more nuanced than in past - I cannot totally agree. Most important is that in 1999 the congress CONCEDED that at least a certain group of politicians KNEW IT BY DAY AND BY DATE! One could read this in several news papers, but of course these were very small articles at the middle or behind.
As an historian you probably have interest in books about that topic. At first I agree thsat there are some crude ones with really adventurous theories on the market, but one of the best - perhaps THE best - is "Day of Deceit" from Robert B. Stinnet. If you are afraid to buy it then at any fair library you should find it. Stinnet is a WW2 vet of his own and worked 17 years on that book. Of course he found a lot of things - to mention them here logically is impossible. But here are some of the most important:
-only two days before the attack - on Dec. 5th - all of the most modern battleships were removed from Pearl Harbour, leaving only old and unimportant ships there.
-the always propagandized radio silence is a lie. Numerous documents prove that a vast number of radio messages with amazingly many details of the attack were decrypted and handed on - without any resulting advices.
-on Nov. 25th FDR said to his ministers that the outbreak of a war against Japan is "a question of very few days"!
-in 1940 FDR accepted an 8-point plan of smart embargo politics from Captain Arthur H. McCollum. McCollum himself stated that because of these 8 points Japan didn't have any other option as to begin war against the US.
These are FACTS. If one WANTS to believe them is a completely other question. I agree that it is hard - for me it was - especially after decades of building and maintaining a simple myth.
Stinnet even didn't intend to impeach FDR for his knowledge, he acknowledged that he must have been under extreme pressure. The large majority of the American People was against the entry into the war, and as intended, that attitude turned completely after Pearl Harbour.
And to all other members stating these "conspiracy theorists" make sick: I am sorry for that, I didn't intend to.
But if you can believe that
-an air jet of more than a hundred feet of wingspans can crash a building and leave only a hole of about 10x10 square foot (remember that the concerned facade did collapse a long time after the crash, and even then the damage still was too small for an air liner), and even leave the window glasses nearest the hole intact,
-after such a crash no parts larger than able to be carried by hand can be found, that the jet can be crashed to "dust",
-an air jet can disappear in the earth (Shanksville) without any sign of a crash - no parts, no burned ground, no corpses - only a very small hole in the earth with some refuse having nothing to do with an air jet,
-the fire burning in the Twin Towers could be able to bring the them down TO THE GROUND! BOTH TOWERS! although the main part of the kerosene has been burned in a huge plume outside the towers, and no bureau fire is able to achieve temperatures high enough to weaken steel (examples are numerous all over the world, the most impressive only few years back in Spain: there a tower of about 30 floors has been burned ALMOST A DAY - and it didn't collapse, and was a very weak building compared to the Twin Towers, and even IF the steel above the point of crash weakened for some (unexplained) reason, then at most the part above that point could have been collapsed, but both towers broke to dust to the ground within only 12 seconds - the speed of free fall! There is no logic.),
then here you have my congratulations! I would love to have your fantasies. The list of the above mentioned list contradicting any logic is much longer! I don't invent that carding - everyone can see the pictures and clips of that day - and everyone should ask himself if he could trust the government. We "conspiracy theorists" are no group being sure to say "We know th truth, we know it was like this or like that". But one thing we can say for sure: these happenings on 9/11 CANNOT have been like Bush & Co. and Pentagon are saying! No more, but also no less! And we won't give up until the truth is out. That simple it is. What do you think is the reason why the only recordings where one could see what hit the Pentagon - the recordings from the camaras of the near Sheraton hotel - have been confiscated? Why were the employees forbidden to speak of anything they have seen there? These recordings and what the hotel workers have seen probably is no confectioner dealing with guns!
I would highly recommend viewing the free movie "Loose Change". On google. video it can be found. One should view it unprejudiced, but by using his brain - and then building an opinion. It may be that it will be the same as before - although this is very unlikely.
I have nothing to loose and - mor important - nothing to win here. I can only motivate to think about that day. Hope that it was successful at least by a small fraction of users.
Old Vets, New Vets, Allied Vets, tip yer glasses to them all. They did it so someone else wouldn't have to.
While none of my family served at Pearl Harbor, 4 of my great uncles and 1 cousin fought in the Pacific and Europe and I am proud as I can be for that. They all survived the conflict. My Great Grandfather was in the Army (after he immigrated to the US), My dad served as a Marine in the 60s, and I have been in the military for the last 19 years.
I have loast a lot of friends over my career in not just in places like Kuwait, Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq, but also in training accidents and other mishaps. They all served, they all cared, and they all wanted something better for us.
I don't care about politics. If the Commander in Chief chooses to fight whoever he thinks we should on their soil, then I am fine with that. I don't get wrapped up in what they got or who did what to who, that is what the Generals and politicians get paid to figure out. Bottom line: I would rather fight them on their soil, than at home....every single time.
To all vets around the world. Keep yourselves safe, watch your buddies back, keep your rifle clean and your ammo dry. Of all the engagements I have been in, the thing that gives me comfort more than anything else is that I was able to bring them all home alive.
When its all said and done, just say thanks to a vet when you meet one. It will make their day that you care enough to say it. Cheers
fwright wrote:DaveThanks for opening this political hot potato. I'm sure this thread will be whacked shortly.Fred W
Dave
Thanks for opening this political hot potato. I'm sure this thread will be whacked shortly.
Fred W
Yeah, sorry about that! I hope Bergie will cut me some slack. Didn't mean to drag the thread off-topic. Please disregard my . It's a topic I have much emotion and energy invested in. But it has no place here at Trains.com.
I have had the honor of meeting many a vet from Pearl Harbor and I did visit the USS Arizona... Very moving, and something every American who happens to Hawaii should see.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
4884bigboy wrote:Thanks to all the vets who served in WWII, and to our boys in Iraq, go get 'em!
Dave Vollmer wrote: Maybe it's that the current war is overshadowing it. After all, the Iraq Study Group report just came out, and folks are anxious to know what the President is going to do with it.As an Iraq vet, I try to remember all of the previous wars and veterans, but some days it's hard to escape the firehose of bad news coming from Iraq. I used to be angry that the media never seemed to discuss some of the good things going on over there; I saw lots of positive things amongst the negative things. But now, who knows.I hate to say this, but it's not going to end like WWII where we force the militias and Al Qaeda to sign a document on the deck of the USS Missouri. Whatever happens, we need to make sure the safety of the US homeland is not compromised. But it seems as if our best intentions cannot save the Iraqis from their own petty differences.We have to learn from this as we learned from Pearl Harbor, but mustn't also forget the lessons from Pearl we forgot before that fateful September day 5 years ago.No one loves this country more than me, but a slice of humble pie might just be what America needs right now. Not defeat, but a realization that we have to share this very small planet with lots of other people who don't necessarily want to be just like us.
Maybe it's that the current war is overshadowing it. After all, the Iraq Study Group report just came out, and folks are anxious to know what the President is going to do with it.
As an Iraq vet, I try to remember all of the previous wars and veterans, but some days it's hard to escape the firehose of bad news coming from Iraq. I used to be angry that the media never seemed to discuss some of the good things going on over there; I saw lots of positive things amongst the negative things. But now, who knows.
I hate to say this, but it's not going to end like WWII where we force the militias and Al Qaeda to sign a document on the deck of the USS Missouri. Whatever happens, we need to make sure the safety of the US homeland is not compromised. But it seems as if our best intentions cannot save the Iraqis from their own petty differences.
We have to learn from this as we learned from Pearl Harbor, but mustn't also forget the lessons from Pearl we forgot before that fateful September day 5 years ago.
No one loves this country more than me, but a slice of humble pie might just be what America needs right now. Not defeat, but a realization that we have to share this very small planet with lots of other people who don't necessarily want to be just like us.
First of all thank you for your service under some not very pretty circumstances. My son has been deployed twice to Iraq with the 1st Marines, and fought in Fallujah.
The U.S. has been involved in 3 major "nation-building" conflicts that lasted over 3 years since World War 2.
The 1st was Korea, and is generally now seen as a success story, although it certainly wasn't seen as a success at the time. The South Korean governments of the'50s through the '70s were hardly models of successful democracy. The same arguments applied - the Korean culture was totally foreign, they didn't have Judeo-Christian values, life was cheap (and still is in North Korea), and there was no democratic history or base to build on.
The 2nd was Vietnam, where we cut our losses and got out before the "civil war" was over. The South Vietnamese government was corrupt, they had no history of democracy in the region, life was cheap, a non-Judeo-Christian religion, etc. Those relatively few South Vietnamese who shared the U.S. vision and had a passion for a different kind of Vietnam either were lucky enough to escape the country, or paid a terrible price in persecution for their "sins".
And now we are tiring of the price (especially still to be paid) and the years needed to turn Iraq into the democratic bastion in the Middle East - if it can even be done. It took Northern Ireland how many years to get tired of killing each other?
I left Honolulu Monday morning - I got to see some of the Pearl Harbor survivors talking in groups at the hotel over the weekend, and I was thankful for them. My dad is a Battle of Britain survivor. The British were so worried they were going to lose to Hitler's scheme that they were dispersing the children to Canada and Austrailia. When a Geman sub sank one of the transports carrying the children the plan was changed to an evacuation of children from London to the Western England countryside.
just my thoughts
CSXFan wrote: First off, I would like to sincerely thank ALL Veterans for keeping this great country free. Thank you!! Sorry to put a damper on all of this but I noticed that many people didn't even remember what happened on Dec 7, 1941. I heard nothing about it all day except for a little story on the local news channel. No major TV stations mentioned it and it didn't make the front page of the press. I didn't even hear anything at school from teachers or students, even in world history class!! Is it just me that has noticed this?
First off, I would like to sincerely thank ALL Veterans for keeping this great country free. Thank you!!
Sorry to put a damper on all of this but I noticed that many people didn't even remember what happened on Dec 7, 1941. I heard nothing about it all day except for a little story on the local news channel. No major TV stations mentioned it and it didn't make the front page of the press. I didn't even hear anything at school from teachers or students, even in world history class!! Is it just me that has noticed this?
EDIT: PLEASE DISGREGARD... I got political and I shouldn't have! Sorry!
Not only do we want to make sure to thank our WW2 Vets......We need to be sure to thank every vet! Ever involved in any conflict no matter how "unpopular" it may have been.
Even if you can't support the what, why or where, we all need to remember that these members of our armed services are doing their jobs (they may not agree with the "what, why, where" either) and deserve the biggest "Thank You" we can muster!
Thank You!
"Don't forget that that attack was a surprise to these poor souls at Pearl Harbour, but not to the government and miltary top of that time. Since about a decade one should know that it was no less than a provoked act to get the legimitation to enter the war, as is 9/11. Since then the fairy tale of the surprise attack is destroyed at least among historians."
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
As an US Navy Veteran (1972-1976) I also want to thank all, past & present, that have stood up to keep us FREE! Like my Father-in-law, who flew 23 missions to help win the war, we are losing these GREAT AMERICANS every day. Please take the time to thank these VETS before they are all gone.
God Bless America!
claymore1977 wrote:Conspiracy theorists make me equally as ill...
jguess733 wrote:Lets us not forget the Gallent men of the Submarine Service who were our only line of defense in the Pacific and kept the Japanese at bay while the surface fleet was being repaired. They did an outstanding job (as did all those who fought in that war) even with the faulty torpedos they were recieving. Jason
Granted it wasnt WWII era, but I am forever grateful to have been selected for the silent service. 8 and a half years spent rigged for dive has definetly shaped me into who I am today. To those brave shipmates on eternal patrol: Fairwinds and following seas!
To all who served and are serving our country to preserve our FREEDOMS: GOD BLESS YOU AND THANK YOU!!
I come from a long line of Military men and due to Vietnam both my Dad and Uncle (who are vets of that war) thought that since my older cousin was in the Navy I should not enlist. They wanted to be sure some one passed on our name.
Hearing what they went through and are going through PLEASE keep our service men and women in our thoughts and prayers.
Trent
Metro Red Line wrote: modelalaska wrote:I jsut wanted to add that in fact the Japanese did land on American soil in the Aleutians (in Alaska for those that don't know) and though it was a relatively short battle, it was still fought. So it was close than most remember. info Just my 2 cents.Peter Alaska didn't become part of the USA until 1958 (If you're an Alaskan, I'm sure this isn't news to you). in WWII Alaska was just a US territory,just as much as Hawaii, Guam or The Philippines were at the time.
modelalaska wrote:I jsut wanted to add that in fact the Japanese did land on American soil in the Aleutians (in Alaska for those that don't know) and though it was a relatively short battle, it was still fought. So it was close than most remember. info Just my 2 cents.Peter
I jsut wanted to add that in fact the Japanese did land on American soil in the Aleutians (in Alaska for those that don't know) and though it was a relatively short battle, it was still fought. So it was close than most remember. info
Just my 2 cents.
Peter
Alaska didn't become part of the USA until 1958 (If you're an Alaskan, I'm sure this isn't news to you). in WWII Alaska was just a US territory,just as much as Hawaii, Guam or The Philippines were at the time.
Suppose we could have a war on words here but I consider a US Territory as US soil. Call it what you will. Heck, we paid 7.2 M for it.
BRAKIE wrote:Tora! Tora! Tora! or Tiger! Tiger! Tiger! Surprise! Yes,the surprise that caught the U.S unawares resulting in 2,335 servicemen and 68 civilians killed (1,102 men on the Arizona accounted for half) and another 1,178 wounded.For those killed on Dec,7th and those that would fall later those are the true heroes after all they gave all that others -including their enemy-could live free of a Tyrant's rule.
Tora! Tora! Tora! or Tiger! Tiger! Tiger! Surprise! Yes,the surprise that caught the U.S unawares resulting in 2,335 servicemen and 68 civilians killed (1,102 men on the Arizona accounted for half) and another 1,178 wounded.
For those killed on Dec,7th and those that would fall later those are the true heroes after all they gave all that others -including their enemy-could live free of a Tyrant's rule.
Don't forget that that attack was a surprise to these poor souls at Pearl Harbour, but not to the government and miltary top of that time. Since about a decade one should know that it was no less than a provoked act to get the legimitation to enter the war, as is 9/11. Since then the fairy tale of the surprise attack is destroyed at least among historians.
Jason
Modeling the Fort Worth & Denver of the early 1970's in N scale