Dec 7, 1941 0757

[claymore1977]

Ladies and gentlemen, let me borrow a few minutes of your time. 
 
         For those of you who are unaware or have forgotten, today marks the day that, 65 years ago, America was given the final push and crossed the threshold into World War 2.  A single carefully-planned and well-executed stroke removed the United States Navy's Pacific Battleship force as a possible threat to the Japanese Empire's southward expansion.  2,400 of our Shipmates, Airmen, Soldiers, Marines and Civilians perished in the attack with thousands more in the years to follow. 
 
        Many people do not realize, even today, that the Pacific Fleet was so weakened by the attack that if it was not for the three Pacific Fleet Aircraft Carriers being ordered to sea in the weeks prior to Dec 7, 1941, they might have been damaged or destroyed in the Pearl Harbor raid, and there would have been very little if not any protection to America's Western coast.  The Japanese, historians theorize, could have easily brought Air and Sea bombardments into California by Christmas of that year with Japanese ground troops arriving by January of '42.  We were that close to having WW2 brought to our own soil.
 
    The point of this email is to ask you to give a minute of your day, in prayer or just thought, to thanking those who put themselves in Harm's way, and continue to do so today, to protect the thing that every American holds dear,  Freedom.  Freedom truly isn't free but it seems that this is taken for granted all too often.
 
 
Thank you for your time,
 
David Loman

[jecorbett]

Admiral Yamamoto had been educated at Harvard and he knew that Japan could not defeat the US in a protracted war but he thought by destroying the Pacific Fleet at the outset, he could wreak havoc for about 2 years during which time the US might be brought to negotiate a peace treaty more favorable to Japan. Luckily the carriers were out to sea and the Pacific Fleet remained a viable fighting force that was able to turn the tide of the war at Midway six months later.

[ARTHILL]

I remember the day and am greatful for all my relatives and friends who were involved as well as thousands of people I did not know, but were someones reletives and friends. I am always greatful they did not try to land on our shore and that we did not have to try to land on there shore. Invasion of a homeland is not the same as invasion of an occupied land.

Thanks for the reminder.

[mononguy63]

David:

I respect the sentiment, particularly since my dad is an Army veteran of the Pacific war, but truthfully the US west coast would not have been threatened even with the loss of the carrier fleet. There simply wasn't anything in it for Japan - their ground forces were already heavily committed with campaigns in China, southeast Asia, and the South Pacific island chains. Australia was of infinitely more interest to them as it threatened their westen Pacific empire (the battle of the Coral Sea thwarted their attempt at invasion Down Under). Even a US coastal bombardment would have been foolhardy as it would have taken their premier battleships to accomplish and would have exposed them thousands of miles from safety to American land-based defense forces, severely limiting their operational capabilities in much more pressing operations elsewhere.

As an aside, of the 8 US battleships present during the attack, 3 escaped any serious damage (though 2 were trapped where they were, berthed inboard of sunken ships alongside), 3 others were raised repaired & modernized and went on to participate in the war, only two were counted as losses. In fact, it was Pearl Harbor veteran ships that participated in history's final battleship-on-battleship combat in the Phillipines later in the war. In the history of the US Navy, not a single battleship was ever sunk in combat, though three (Maine, Oklahoma, and Arizona) were sunk while at anchor in a harbor.

Jim

[Anonymous]

What really bums me is that this is the only message board I have seen this mentioned on. I wish to say "Thank you" to all who served then and all who serve now. 

[tstage]

I also read today on the Internet that the survivors of Pearl Harbor were going to be meeting for the last time.  They are all in their 80s and 90s and meet every five years.

Tom

[tcwright973]

I have some recollections of War World II, blackouts, civil defense wardens, my Mom and Aunts all going to work. And I remember my Dad and five Uncles all coming home after the war ended. They served in both the Pacific and Europe. I have always been proud of them. Being a veteran myself, I have great appreciation for their service and that of so many others, especially those who never saw their families again.

Tom 

[BRAKIE]

Tora! Tora! Tora! or Tiger! Tiger! Tiger! Surprise! Yes,the surprise that caught the U.S unawares resulting in 2,335 servicemen and 68 civilians killed (1,102 men on the Arizona accounted for half) and another 1,178 wounded.

For those killed on Dec,7th and those that would fall later those are the true heroes after all they gave all that others -including their enemy-could live free of a Tyrant's rule.

[jguess733]

Lets us not forget the Gallent men of the Submarine Service who were our only line of defense in the Pacific and kept the Japanese at bay while the surface fleet was being repaired. They did an outstanding job (as did all those who fought in that war) even with the faulty torpedos they were recieving. Jason

[modelalaska]

I jsut wanted to add that in fact the Japanese did land on American soil in the Aleutians (in Alaska for those that don't know) and though it was a relatively short battle, it was still fought.  So it was close than most remember.   info

Just my 2 cents.

Peter 

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

Tora! Tora! Tora! or Tiger! Tiger! Tiger! Surprise! Yes,the surprise that caught the U.S unawares resulting in 2,335 servicemen and 68 civilians killed (1,102 men on the Arizona accounted for half) and another 1,178 wounded.

For those killed on Dec,7th and those that would fall later those are the true heroes after all they gave all that others -including their enemy-could live free of a Tyrant's rule.

 

Don't forget that that attack was a surprise to these poor souls at Pearl Harbour, but not to  the government and miltary top of that time. Since about a decade one should know that it was no less than a provoked act to get the legimitation to enter the war, as is 9/11. Since then the fairy tale of the surprise attack is destroyed at least among historians.

[edo1039]

I to thank you,as a Navy Vet. The ship I served on won 16 Battle Stars during WW2.

[Anonymous]

Thanks to all the vets who served in WWII, and to our boys in Iraq, go get 'em!

[Metro Red Line]

I jsut wanted to add that in fact the Japanese did land on American soil in the Aleutians (in Alaska for those that don't know) and though it was a relatively short battle, it was still fought.  So it was close than most remember.   info

Just my 2 cents.

Peter 

Alaska didn't become part of the USA until 1958 (If you're an Alaskan, I'm sure this isn't news to you). in WWII Alaska was just a US territory,just as much as Hawaii, Guam or The Philippines were at the time.

[modelalaska]

I jsut wanted to add that in fact the Japanese did land on American soil in the Aleutians (in Alaska for those that don't know) and though it was a relatively short battle, it was still fought.  So it was close than most remember.   info

Just my 2 cents.

Peter 

Alaska didn't become part of the USA until 1958 (If you're an Alaskan, I'm sure this isn't news to you). in WWII Alaska was just a US territory,just as much as Hawaii, Guam or The Philippines were at the time.

Suppose we could have a war on words here but I consider a US Territory as US soil.  Call it what you will.  Heck, we paid 7.2 M for it.

Peter 

[TRENT B]

To all who served and are serving our country to preserve our FREEDOMS: GOD BLESS YOU AND THANK YOU!!

I come from a long line of Military men and due to Vietnam both my Dad and Uncle (who are vets of that war) thought that since my older cousin was in the Navy I should not enlist. They wanted to be sure some one passed on our name.

Hearing what they went through and are going through PLEASE keep our service men and women in our thoughts and prayers.

Trent

[claymore1977]

Lets us not forget the Gallent men of the Submarine Service who were our only line of defense in the Pacific and kept the Japanese at bay while the surface fleet was being repaired. They did an outstanding job (as did all those who fought in that war) even with the faulty torpedos they were recieving. Jason

Granted it wasnt WWII era, but I am forever grateful to have been selected for the silent service.  8 and a half years spent rigged for dive has definetly shaped me into who I am today.  To those brave shipmates on eternal patrol:  Fairwinds and following seas! 

[lvanhen]

My dad & 2 uncles served in the Navy in the Pacific in WWII, my grandfather at Los Alamos.  I served in Vietnam (Army) & my 3 sons have all served (Air Force, Army, Navy).  Anti Government protesters make me sick - but that's one of the rights we all fought for.  God Bless the USA.

[claymore1977]

***Post deleted by claymore1977, see reason below***

[lvanhen]

Conspiracy theorists make me equally as ill...

were you referring to someone with a french sounding moniker? AMEN!!

[tomkat-13]

As an US Navy Veteran (1972-1976) I also want to thank all, past & present, that have stood up to keep us FREE! Like  my Father-in-law, who flew 23 missions to help win the war, we are losing these GREAT AMERICANS every day. Please take the time to thank these VETS before they are all gone. 

 

God Bless America!

[mlehman]

VAPEURCHAPELON wrote:

"Don't forget that that attack was a surprise to these poor souls at Pearl Harbour, but not to  the government and miltary top of that time. Since about a decade one should know that it was no less than a provoked act to get the legimitation to enter the war, as is 9/11. Since then the fairy tale of the surprise attack is destroyed at least among historians."

Sorry, but as an historian, I've got to beg to differ. There was certainly a lot of "chatter" about the possibility of an attack somewhere in the Pacific, but there was nothing certain in hand in decoded and translated form that would have been actionable intel in time to mobilize the defenses in Hawaii on that fateful Sunday morning. The general in charge of the defenses in Hawaii was sacked, but later reviews largely cleared him. There was little that could have been done, given the weak defenses present on the islands anyway, unless warned in enough time for the fleet to put to sea. And that is a very big project, much more than jumping in the car and keying the ignition.

In fact, as someone mentioned, Admiral Yamamoto was personally reticent about the attack because he was familiar with American culture and knew he'd be smacking a hornet's nest. However, he still executed a masterful plan that --partly -- did what it was it was supposed to, cripple the Pacific Fleet. As was mentioned, it was more lucky coincidence than anything that the US carriers were at sea. The returning Japanese pilots brought Adm. Y. the bad news -- the  carriers were not at Pearl, confirming thatthe  tactical success of his plan that day was matched by strategic failure for Japan.

Most historians take a far more nuanced view of Pearl Harbor these days than in the past, but I'd have to agree that those who regard the whole thing as a setup by FDR to drag us into war are generally considered to be on the fringe, if not outright conspiracy theorists. The documentary record indicates that FDR saw war coming, wanted to get a very isolationst US public brought around to the idea that the US must act, but he desperately wanted to delay war at least a year past when iot actually began and even then to try avoid war in the Pacific with Japan, if possible, in order to concentrate on Europe. This was because the British were barely hanging on and if they collapsed, the USSR would then fall, too, leaving the US as the sole power against the Axis block. As it happened, the Japanese forced FDR's hand, but still Europe remained a priority for the Allies until late 1944.

[colvinbackshop]

Not only do we want to make sure to thank our WW2 Vets......We need to be sure to thank every vet! Ever involved in any conflict no matter how "unpopular" it may have been.

Even if you can't support the what, why or where, we all need to remember that these members of our armed services are doing their jobs (they may not agree with the "what, why, where" either) and deserve the biggest "Thank You" we can muster!

Thank You!

[wjstix]

Ya when I started reading this posting I wondered how long it would be until that old baloney about FDR 'inviting' the Japanese to attack so he could get the US into the war. As mlehman pointed out, most everyone was expecting an attack somewhere in the Pacific - once talks between the US and Japan broke down a few weeks earlier, everyone on both sides pretty much understood that a war was going to happen. The question was where?? No one believed on the US side that a Japanese fleet could sail halfway across the Pacific undetected and attack Pearl. The "smart money" was on an attack in the Phillipines. An irony there is Manilla was in fact hit a few days after Pearl Harbor, yet didn't fare much better despite the war having already begun.

[CSXFan]

First off, I would like to sincerely thank ALL Veterans for keeping this great  country free. Thank you!!

Sorry to put a damper on all of this but I noticed that many people didn't even remember what happened on Dec 7, 1941. I heard nothing about it all day except for a little story on the local news channel. No major TV stations mentioned it and it didn't make the front page of the press. I didn't even hear anything at school from teachers or students, even in world history class!! Is it just me that has noticed this?

 

[J. Edgar]

same here    Thank you all Vets and current Service members

[Dave Vollmer]

First off, I would like to sincerely thank ALL Veterans for keeping this great  country free. Thank you!!

Sorry to put a damper on all of this but I noticed that many people didn't even remember what happened on Dec 7, 1941. I heard nothing about it all day except for a little story on the local news channel. No major TV stations mentioned it and it didn't make the front page of the press. I didn't even hear anything at school from teachers or students, even in world history class!! Is it just me that has noticed this?

 

EDIT:  PLEASE DISGREGARD...  I got political and I shouldn't have!  Sorry!

Maybe it's that the current war is overshadowing it.  After all, the Iraq Study Group report just came out, and folks are anxious to know what the President is going to do with it.

As an Iraq vet, I try to remember all of the previous wars and veterans, but some days it's hard to escape the firehose of bad news coming from Iraq.  I used to be angry that the media never seemed to discuss some of the good things going on over there; I saw lots of positive things amongst the negative things.  But now, who knows.

I hate to say this, but it's not going to end like WWII where we force the militias and Al Qaeda to sign a document on the deck of the USS Missouri.  Whatever happens, we need to make sure the safety of the US homeland is not compromised.  But it seems as if our best intentions cannot save the Iraqis from their own petty differences.

We have to learn from this as we learned from Pearl Harbor, but mustn't also forget the lessons from Pearl we forgot before that fateful September day 5 years ago.

No one loves this country more than me, but a slice of humble pie might just be what America needs right now.  Not defeat, but a realization that we have to share this very small planet with lots of other people who don't necessarily want to be just like us.

[fwright]

Maybe it's that the current war is overshadowing it.  After all, the Iraq Study Group report just came out, and folks are anxious to know what the President is going to do with it.

As an Iraq vet, I try to remember all of the previous wars and veterans, but some days it's hard to escape the firehose of bad news coming from Iraq.  I used to be angry that the media never seemed to discuss some of the good things going on over there; I saw lots of positive things amongst the negative things.  But now, who knows.

I hate to say this, but it's not going to end like WWII where we force the militias and Al Qaeda to sign a document on the deck of the USS Missouri.  Whatever happens, we need to make sure the safety of the US homeland is not compromised.  But it seems as if our best intentions cannot save the Iraqis from their own petty differences.

We have to learn from this as we learned from Pearl Harbor, but mustn't also forget the lessons from Pearl we forgot before that fateful September day 5 years ago.

No one loves this country more than me, but a slice of humble pie might just be what America needs right now.  Not defeat, but a realization that we have to share this very small planet with lots of other people who don't necessarily want to be just like us.

Dave

Thanks for opening this political hot potato.  I'm sure this thread will be whacked shortly.

First of all thank you for your service under some not very pretty circumstances.  My son has been deployed twice to Iraq with the 1st Marines, and fought in Fallujah.

The U.S. has been involved in 3 major "nation-building" conflicts that lasted over 3 years since World War 2. 

The 1st was Korea, and is generally now seen as a success story, although it certainly wasn't seen as a success at the time.  The South Korean governments of the'50s through the '70s were hardly models of successful democracy.  The same arguments applied - the Korean culture was totally foreign, they didn't have Judeo-Christian values, life was cheap (and still is in North Korea), and there was no democratic history or base to build on.

The 2nd was Vietnam, where we cut our losses and got out before the "civil war" was over.  The South Vietnamese government was corrupt, they had no history of democracy in the region, life was cheap, a non-Judeo-Christian religion, etc.  Those relatively few South Vietnamese who shared the U.S. vision and had a passion for a different kind of Vietnam either were lucky enough to escape the country, or paid a terrible price in persecution for their "sins".

And now we are tiring of the price (especially still to be paid) and the years needed to turn Iraq into the democratic bastion in the Middle East - if it can even be done.  It took Northern Ireland how many years to get tired of killing each other?

I left Honolulu Monday morning - I got to see some of the Pearl Harbor survivors talking in groups at the hotel over the weekend, and I was thankful for them.  My dad is a Battle of Britain survivor.  The British were so worried they were going to lose to Hitler's scheme that they were dispersing the children to Canada and Austrailia.  When a Geman sub sank one of the transports carrying the children the plan was changed to an evacuation of children from London to the Western England countryside.

just my thoughts

Fred W 

[ModelTrainman]

Thanks to all the vets who served in WWII, and to our boys in Iraq, go get 'em!

YES!

[Dave Vollmer]

Dave

Thanks for opening this political hot potato.  I'm sure this thread will be whacked shortly.

Fred W 

Yeah, sorry about that!    I hope Bergie will cut me some slack.  Didn't mean to drag the thread off-topic.  Please disregard my .  It's a topic I have much emotion and energy invested in.  But it has no place here at Trains.com. 

I have had the honor of meeting many a vet from Pearl Harbor and I did visit the USS Arizona...  Very moving, and something every American who happens to Hawaii should see.