Ladies and gentlemen I want to first offer up a public apology. My intention was to make a thread honoring our fallen servicemen and women. Posts were made that I felt strongly against and made replies to them. The posts in question and my replies to them were against the forum rules and therefore all my posts have been deleted out of respect for the purpose of this thread.
Secondly, I urge all others that posted here off the intended topic to do the same. It is shameful to have done this and I am shamed to have had a part in it.
Dave Loman
My site: The Rusty Spike
"It's a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 2 cents in.... hey, someone's making a penny!"
claymore1977 wrote: MidlandPacific wrote: Prange's "Pearl Harbor: The Verdict of History" is the definitive response to the conspiracy theorists, and deserves mention. OK, NOW they can lock it.LOL
MidlandPacific wrote: Prange's "Pearl Harbor: The Verdict of History" is the definitive response to the conspiracy theorists, and deserves mention. OK, NOW they can lock it.
Prange's "Pearl Harbor: The Verdict of History" is the definitive response to the conspiracy theorists, and deserves mention.
OK, NOW they can lock it.
LOL
CLAYMORE,,,, I concure, Conspiricy therorist are better left to writing fiction than fact. They are like a good defense lawery. They present the truth as they see it, even if it be a very few words of fact are in the overall context, as it was said at the time, with out the facts of the time included
PLEASE BERGIE, LOCK AND DELETE THIS THING
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/4309
My information comes from several books and a TV special dealing with eye witness acounts and after battle reports from BOTH sides..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
Fellas;
I know this topic has been off-topic and I am surprised that Bergie hasn't killed it. But I have one thing to say on this.
If you really want to know what really went on prior to, during and after Pearl Harbor, you need to read Gordon Prange's two books. The first one, "At Dawn We Slept", deals exclusively with Pearl Harbor. Both from the Japanese standpoint and the American standpoint. The Second book, "Miracle at Midway", deals with Pearl's aftermath up to June 1942 and the victory at Midway.
Mr.Prange was on McArthur's staff during the war, and was charged by him immediately after the surrender to document the Japanese surviving hard information on the planning and execution of the attack. Mr. Prange wound up spending the next 35yrs doing just that. He not only researched the Japanese archives but also the American archives as well. He also interviewed as many of the participants in the planning and execution of the battle that survived including, Genda who planned the attack at Yamamotos bequest, Fujita, who led the attack, Gen. Short, Adm Kimmel, Nimitz, and many, many others. Anyone who was vaguely connected with Pearl Harbor was interviewed. He also became good friends with both Genda and Fujita and visited with them in Japan many times after the war. Mr. Prange died prior to the finishing of what was originally one volume, but his two direct assistants finished the book and divided it into the two books mentioned above.
Many military historians rate these two books as the definitive work on Pearl Harbor and Midway, which are tied together more than most people believe.
My thanks go out to any veteran, whether WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq1&2, no matter when or where you served our country. Because of you, I can post information like this for all to read.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
Dave,There is a lot of questions that remains unanswered today about the attack on Pearl..
Well the Nevada got underway in less then a hour DURING the attack as did several destroyers and I know ALL of the ships COULD have sortie away from Pearl after all a flag order went up during the attack:ALL SHIPS IN HARBOR SORTIE.So you can rule out taking a week to get under way.
The fact is they remain in port while the carries left to do some scout work(yet another alarm bell) and ADM Halsey didn't want to slow down his carriers by taking the Battle wagons. .The carriers did a quick port call as well before leaving Pearl for scouting after the attack.Even then there was fear of Japanese subs locating our carriers.
Guys,We can not over look these cold hard facts.
There are things we knew well before the attack
Nov. 27 - Stimson sends "hostile action possible" warning to Pacific bases
Nov. 28 Navy issues another war warning
Dec. 2 - Magic translates Togo's "boomerang" message to destroy all codes
and
Army G2's Rufus Bratton wants another war warning but Marshall says no-Why?
============================================================
Why was it weekend business as usual when repeated warnings was issued?
Remember lots of key officers wasn't even on their ship.
Chief Boatswain Hill took USS Nevada on her famous sortie as he was the highest rank officer on board.
Why didn't Kimmel order a fleet alert instead of not responding?
Guys,I agree that a air attack on Pearl was the last thing on their minds but,still the cold hard facts remain Japan was going to strike.There was no question about that.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
You have, I think, to look at some of those times to realize not only how long it physically takes for a message to be passed, but for it to be mentally assimilated and acted on. The Ward's depth-charging of the Japanese sub half an hour before the aircraft arrived over Pearl Harbor is a good example. Half an hour is not much time to assimilate or act on information, if you're not already mentally conditioned to regard it as a sign, particularly if you have settled preconceptions about what's going to happen - and if I remember correctly, the Secretary of the Navy's response when he got the phone call was, "Oh my God - don't you mean the Phillippines?" Everyone was looking the wrong way, and while the signs that they saw might have indicated a war was about to start, they didn't necessarily indicate Japanese airplanes were about to appear over Pearl Harbor. Remember, there were lots of warnings, and the Army and Navy both took countermeasures beforehand - they just took the wrong kind of countermeasures, because they never expected that the Japanese would start an attack on Southeast Asia by hitting Pearl Harbor.
I remember something similar on 9/11. I was watching TV when the second plan hit the WTC, and it was clear to me, as it was to everyone around me, that it could not have been an accident. I can remember thinking "if two, why not more?" And I was vaguely uneasy, and I did think about leaving and going home. But I decided, as most people did, to wait and see what else hap-
BOOM!
And that's how it went. I had half an hour to figure out what was going to happen, based on a series of incidents that didn't necessarily point toward the spot where I was standing, and I didn't quite figure it out. Nobody else did, either.
There are some things about 12-7-41 that does not add up.
1.We knew all of their main carriers had left their home waters.
2.We was decoding messages FASTER then the Japanese ambassador and had the 14th part well before 0755.
3.We knew a attack was imminent.More likely the Philippines.
3.Several Warnings was sent to Pearl well before Dec. 7th of possible attacks.
4 The Ward reports firing on and sinking a sub operating within the safety zone at 0645 hours.
5.Radar picks up a huge flight of inbound plans at 0702 .-blown off as inbound B17s
0720 Wards report relayed to Kimmel ..No Action taken.
0733 A war Warning is received by the Western Union in Honolulu and placed with routine messages.
0757 Japanese plans slam into Pearl catching the fleet flat footed.
These first few minutes meant life and death on Battleship row and the airfields.
Famous last words
Dec. 4 - Knox: "no matter what happens, the U.S. Navy is not going to be caught napping."
Dec 6th FDR reads 13-part 900-series intercept: "this means war" but he believes peace can still be obtain.
Modern day torpedoes run on JP5 and I have heard that some of the newer aircraft use JP10!
Inch, thats for the photo. This is definetly one of those buildings that would have stories galore, if it could only talk....
Heres a photo of the old NYC depot in Robinson,IL, now a war musuem. Just try an stop to think about all those young men who left there on their way to war after Pearl
OH, and anyone who doesn't JP4 doesn't get hot enough to melt steel, has never been through a JP fire. Beileve me it gets very hot, very quick.
inch
lvanhen wrote:My dad & 2 uncles served in the Navy in the Pacific in WWII, my grandfather at Los Alamos. I served in Vietnam (Army) & my 3 sons have all served (Air Force, Army, Navy). Anti Government protesters make me sick - but that's one of the rights we all fought for. God Bless the USA.
Thanks to you and your family for service rendered in the defense of our precious democracy.
Unfortunately it seems that some who protest often forget that they are protesting government policy not the government.
Jon
And while I'm at it, you're wrong about Pearl Harbor, too. The only battleships that were absent were the three New Mexico class ships, which had been in the Atlantic for several months, and the Colorado, which was virtually identical to the Tennessee, West Virginia, and Maryland. The newer battleships hadn't even joined the fleet yet.
But why let the truth get in the way of a good story?
MidlandPacific wrote: Chapelon- Listen, pal - I was there - I was in the Pentagon! I was in my office when the plane hit, and I heard and felt the impact. I saw the site on the day and afterwards, and I smelled the burning aviation fuel - and yes, I'm an old artilleryman, and I can tell the difference between the smell of artillery propellant, high explosive, and burning gasoline by smell - there was no "missile strike." I know several people who saw the plane fly overhead and of one who saw it hit the building -it was plainly visible from the Marine Annex on a hill above the Pentagon, and it was witnessed by literally scores of people. A fire captain who was an old high school friend helped remove the human remains from what was left of the airframe - which was plainly visible to anyone riding a bus to or from the Pentagon for about two weeks after the accident. You, sir, are either a liar or a fool. There is no third possibility.
Chapelon-
Listen, pal - I was there - I was in the Pentagon! I was in my office when the plane hit, and I heard and felt the impact. I saw the site on the day and afterwards, and I smelled the burning aviation fuel - and yes, I'm an old artilleryman, and I can tell the difference between the smell of artillery propellant, high explosive, and burning gasoline by smell - there was no "missile strike." I know several people who saw the plane fly overhead and of one who saw it hit the building -it was plainly visible from the Marine Annex on a hill above the Pentagon, and it was witnessed by literally scores of people. A fire captain who was an old high school friend helped remove the human remains from what was left of the airframe - which was plainly visible to anyone riding a bus to or from the Pentagon for about two weeks after the accident.
You, sir, are either a liar or a fool. There is no third possibility.
HOOAH!
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Yeah, I wanted so badly to stay out of this, but Conspiracy Theorists drive me nuts. As a military member who's worked in higher levels of classification, I have a pretty good bead on the truth. The fact is that there are no crazy conspiracies. Real life just isn't as exciting as what people with lots of time on their hands can conjure up in their minds.
I may have my opinions about things too, but at least I can say I've done more for my country than just whine about it. When America called, I answered.
Now, before Bergie smacks us all, can we talk trains? At the time of the Pearl Harbor attack Hawaii had a pretty extensive network of narrow gauge railroads serving the sugar cane industry. That would make an interesting model... Especially if you modeled the WWII period, when these same narrow gauge railroads served the huge military buildup on the islands.
Stevearino wrote: Just want to get this out... Please don't feed the troll....
Just want to get this out...
Please don't feed the troll....
Why not feed the troll - some cyanide maybe!
claymore1977 wrote: Thoughts like this blow my mind. If these people had half an education they would realize the flaws in these theories. That is unless, of course, the US Government has found a way to alter physics. And even if all this crap was true, why? If you think that our government(which isnt flawless, nor un-corrupt) is SO currupt that it would justify killing 3,000+ people just to get someone re-elected... you're an idiot. Plain and simple. Get off the couch, stop watching the X-Files and instead of trying to blame the government for everything, take the opposite route. Take a scientific approach to these things and talk to people OTHER THAN those that share your opinions, with an unprejudiced mind (as you are so fond of stating)
Thoughts like this blow my mind. If these people had half an education they would realize the flaws in these theories. That is unless, of course, the US Government has found a way to alter physics. And even if all this crap was true, why? If you think that our government(which isnt flawless, nor un-corrupt) is SO currupt that it would justify killing 3,000+ people just to get someone re-elected... you're an idiot. Plain and simple. Get off the couch, stop watching the X-Files and instead of trying to blame the government for everything, take the opposite route. Take a scientific approach to these things and talk to people OTHER THAN those that share your opinions, with an unprejudiced mind (as you are so fond of stating)
Claymore,
Thank you thank you, thank you! First for your service, and that of all vets and active military , and also for speaking your mind so that I didn't have to.
Is it just me, or did this sort of nuttiness lose its mental patient stigma and become legitimized when the X-Files hit the air? I personally enjoyed the show -- as a piece of paranoid sci-fi escapism, and nothing more -- but apparently there are legions of people out there who believe that what came out of Chris Carter's twisted cerebellum is reality, and that everyone else is lying to them. Nothing just happens; every event is controlled by satanic figures pulling all of the strings from the shadows... Aaaaaaghhh!!!
Here's a bit of advice: don't depend on Hollywood or Art Bell for your worldview. You'll be healthier for it.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted