Old Vets, New Vets, Allied Vets, tip yer glasses to them all. They did it so someone else wouldn't have to.
While none of my family served at Pearl Harbor, 4 of my great uncles and 1 cousin fought in the Pacific and Europe and I am proud as I can be for that. They all survived the conflict. My Great Grandfather was in the Army (after he immigrated to the US), My dad served as a Marine in the 60s, and I have been in the military for the last 19 years.
I have loast a lot of friends over my career in not just in places like Kuwait, Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq, but also in training accidents and other mishaps. They all served, they all cared, and they all wanted something better for us.
I don't care about politics. If the Commander in Chief chooses to fight whoever he thinks we should on their soil, then I am fine with that. I don't get wrapped up in what they got or who did what to who, that is what the Generals and politicians get paid to figure out. Bottom line: I would rather fight them on their soil, than at home....every single time.
To all vets around the world. Keep yourselves safe, watch your buddies back, keep your rifle clean and your ammo dry. Of all the engagements I have been in, the thing that gives me comfort more than anything else is that I was able to bring them all home alive.
When its all said and done, just say thanks to a vet when you meet one. It will make their day that you care enough to say it. Cheers
mlehman wrote:Sorry, but as an historian, I've got to beg to differ. There was certainly a lot of "chatter" about the possibility of an attack somewhere in the Pacific, but there was nothing certain in hand in decoded and translated form that would have been actionable intel in time to mobilize the defenses in Hawaii on that fateful Sunday morning. The general in charge of the defenses in Hawaii was sacked, but later reviews largely cleared him. There was little that could have been done, given the weak defenses present on the islands anyway, unless warned in enough time for the fleet to put to sea. And that is a very big project, much more than jumping in the car and keying the ignition.In fact, as someone mentioned, Admiral Yamamoto was personally reticent about the attack because he was familiar with American culture and knew he'd be smacking a hornet's nest. However, he still executed a masterful plan that --partly -- did what it was it was supposed to, cripple the Pacific Fleet. As was mentioned, it was more lucky coincidence than anything that the US carriers were at sea. The returning Japanese pilots brought Adm. Y. the bad news -- the carriers were not at Pearl, confirming thatthe tactical success of his plan that day was matched by strategic failure for Japan.Most historians take a far more nuanced view of Pearl Harbor these days than in the past, but I'd have to agree that those who regard the whole thing as a setup by FDR to drag us into war are generally considered to be on the fringe, if not outright conspiracy theorists. The documentary record indicates that FDR saw war coming, wanted to get a very isolationst US public brought around to the idea that the US must act, but he desperately wanted to delay war at least a year past when iot actually began and even then to try avoid war in the Pacific with Japan, if possible, in order to concentrate on Europe. This was because the British were barely hanging on and if they collapsed, the USSR would then fall, too, leaving the US as the sole power against the Axis block. As it happened, the Japanese forced FDR's hand, but still Europe remained a priority for the Allies until late 1944.
Sorry, but as an historian, I've got to beg to differ. There was certainly a lot of "chatter" about the possibility of an attack somewhere in the Pacific, but there was nothing certain in hand in decoded and translated form that would have been actionable intel in time to mobilize the defenses in Hawaii on that fateful Sunday morning. The general in charge of the defenses in Hawaii was sacked, but later reviews largely cleared him. There was little that could have been done, given the weak defenses present on the islands anyway, unless warned in enough time for the fleet to put to sea. And that is a very big project, much more than jumping in the car and keying the ignition.
In fact, as someone mentioned, Admiral Yamamoto was personally reticent about the attack because he was familiar with American culture and knew he'd be smacking a hornet's nest. However, he still executed a masterful plan that --partly -- did what it was it was supposed to, cripple the Pacific Fleet. As was mentioned, it was more lucky coincidence than anything that the US carriers were at sea. The returning Japanese pilots brought Adm. Y. the bad news -- the carriers were not at Pearl, confirming thatthe tactical success of his plan that day was matched by strategic failure for Japan.
Most historians take a far more nuanced view of Pearl Harbor these days than in the past, but I'd have to agree that those who regard the whole thing as a setup by FDR to drag us into war are generally considered to be on the fringe, if not outright conspiracy theorists. The documentary record indicates that FDR saw war coming, wanted to get a very isolationst US public brought around to the idea that the US must act, but he desperately wanted to delay war at least a year past when iot actually began and even then to try avoid war in the Pacific with Japan, if possible, in order to concentrate on Europe. This was because the British were barely hanging on and if they collapsed, the USSR would then fall, too, leaving the US as the sole power against the Axis block. As it happened, the Japanese forced FDR's hand, but still Europe remained a priority for the Allies until late 1944.
Mike,
please excuse that I am late. I appreciate your answer. I learned from it. Thank you. But please understand that - though it is nice to read that today that topic is viewed more nuanced than in past - I cannot totally agree. Most important is that in 1999 the congress CONCEDED that at least a certain group of politicians KNEW IT BY DAY AND BY DATE! One could read this in several news papers, but of course these were very small articles at the middle or behind.
As an historian you probably have interest in books about that topic. At first I agree thsat there are some crude ones with really adventurous theories on the market, but one of the best - perhaps THE best - is "Day of Deceit" from Robert B. Stinnet. If you are afraid to buy it then at any fair library you should find it. Stinnet is a WW2 vet of his own and worked 17 years on that book. Of course he found a lot of things - to mention them here logically is impossible. But here are some of the most important:
-only two days before the attack - on Dec. 5th - all of the most modern battleships were removed from Pearl Harbour, leaving only old and unimportant ships there.
-the always propagandized radio silence is a lie. Numerous documents prove that a vast number of radio messages with amazingly many details of the attack were decrypted and handed on - without any resulting advices.
-on Nov. 25th FDR said to his ministers that the outbreak of a war against Japan is "a question of very few days"!
-in 1940 FDR accepted an 8-point plan of smart embargo politics from Captain Arthur H. McCollum. McCollum himself stated that because of these 8 points Japan didn't have any other option as to begin war against the US.
These are FACTS. If one WANTS to believe them is a completely other question. I agree that it is hard - for me it was - especially after decades of building and maintaining a simple myth.
Stinnet even didn't intend to impeach FDR for his knowledge, he acknowledged that he must have been under extreme pressure. The large majority of the American People was against the entry into the war, and as intended, that attitude turned completely after Pearl Harbour.
And to all other members stating these "conspiracy theorists" make sick: I am sorry for that, I didn't intend to.
But if you can believe that
-an air jet of more than a hundred feet of wingspans can crash a building and leave only a hole of about 10x10 square foot (remember that the concerned facade did collapse a long time after the crash, and even then the damage still was too small for an air liner), and even leave the window glasses nearest the hole intact,
-after such a crash no parts larger than able to be carried by hand can be found, that the jet can be crashed to "dust",
-an air jet can disappear in the earth (Shanksville) without any sign of a crash - no parts, no burned ground, no corpses - only a very small hole in the earth with some refuse having nothing to do with an air jet,
-the fire burning in the Twin Towers could be able to bring the them down TO THE GROUND! BOTH TOWERS! although the main part of the kerosene has been burned in a huge plume outside the towers, and no bureau fire is able to achieve temperatures high enough to weaken steel (examples are numerous all over the world, the most impressive only few years back in Spain: there a tower of about 30 floors has been burned ALMOST A DAY - and it didn't collapse, and was a very weak building compared to the Twin Towers, and even IF the steel above the point of crash weakened for some (unexplained) reason, then at most the part above that point could have been collapsed, but both towers broke to dust to the ground within only 12 seconds - the speed of free fall! There is no logic.),
then here you have my congratulations! I would love to have your fantasies. The list of the above mentioned list contradicting any logic is much longer! I don't invent that carding - everyone can see the pictures and clips of that day - and everyone should ask himself if he could trust the government. We "conspiracy theorists" are no group being sure to say "We know th truth, we know it was like this or like that". But one thing we can say for sure: these happenings on 9/11 CANNOT have been like Bush & Co. and Pentagon are saying! No more, but also no less! And we won't give up until the truth is out. That simple it is. What do you think is the reason why the only recordings where one could see what hit the Pentagon - the recordings from the camaras of the near Sheraton hotel - have been confiscated? Why were the employees forbidden to speak of anything they have seen there? These recordings and what the hotel workers have seen probably is no confectioner dealing with guns!
I would highly recommend viewing the free movie "Loose Change". On google. video it can be found. One should view it unprejudiced, but by using his brain - and then building an opinion. It may be that it will be the same as before - although this is very unlikely.
I have nothing to loose and - mor important - nothing to win here. I can only motivate to think about that day. Hope that it was successful at least by a small fraction of users.
Just want to get this out...
Please don't feed the troll....
Stevearino wrote: Just want to get this out... Please don't feed the troll....
As much as I'd like to right about now; you're right...
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
...only way to kill trolls is acid or fire...fire works better - makes'em crispy and they taste good with ketchup
er.. wait.. no.. thats for D&D... though it might work here too...
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Dave Loman
My site: The Rusty Spike
"It's a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 2 cents in.... hey, someone's making a penny!"
claymore1977 wrote: Thoughts like this blow my mind. If these people had half an education they would realize the flaws in these theories. That is unless, of course, the US Government has found a way to alter physics. And even if all this crap was true, why? If you think that our government(which isnt flawless, nor un-corrupt) is SO currupt that it would justify killing 3,000+ people just to get someone re-elected... you're an idiot. Plain and simple. Get off the couch, stop watching the X-Files and instead of trying to blame the government for everything, take the opposite route. Take a scientific approach to these things and talk to people OTHER THAN those that share your opinions, with an unprejudiced mind (as you are so fond of stating)
Thoughts like this blow my mind. If these people had half an education they would realize the flaws in these theories. That is unless, of course, the US Government has found a way to alter physics. And even if all this crap was true, why? If you think that our government(which isnt flawless, nor un-corrupt) is SO currupt that it would justify killing 3,000+ people just to get someone re-elected... you're an idiot. Plain and simple. Get off the couch, stop watching the X-Files and instead of trying to blame the government for everything, take the opposite route. Take a scientific approach to these things and talk to people OTHER THAN those that share your opinions, with an unprejudiced mind (as you are so fond of stating)
Claymore,
Thank you thank you, thank you! First for your service, and that of all vets and active military , and also for speaking your mind so that I didn't have to.
Is it just me, or did this sort of nuttiness lose its mental patient stigma and become legitimized when the X-Files hit the air? I personally enjoyed the show -- as a piece of paranoid sci-fi escapism, and nothing more -- but apparently there are legions of people out there who believe that what came out of Chris Carter's twisted cerebellum is reality, and that everyone else is lying to them. Nothing just happens; every event is controlled by satanic figures pulling all of the strings from the shadows... Aaaaaaghhh!!!
Here's a bit of advice: don't depend on Hollywood or Art Bell for your worldview. You'll be healthier for it.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
Why not feed the troll - some cyanide maybe!
Yeah, I wanted so badly to stay out of this, but Conspiracy Theorists drive me nuts. As a military member who's worked in higher levels of classification, I have a pretty good bead on the truth. The fact is that there are no crazy conspiracies. Real life just isn't as exciting as what people with lots of time on their hands can conjure up in their minds.
I may have my opinions about things too, but at least I can say I've done more for my country than just whine about it. When America called, I answered.
Now, before Bergie smacks us all, can we talk trains? At the time of the Pearl Harbor attack Hawaii had a pretty extensive network of narrow gauge railroads serving the sugar cane industry. That would make an interesting model... Especially if you modeled the WWII period, when these same narrow gauge railroads served the huge military buildup on the islands.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Chapelon-
Listen, pal - I was there - I was in the Pentagon! I was in my office when the plane hit, and I heard and felt the impact. I saw the site on the day and afterwards, and I smelled the burning aviation fuel - and yes, I'm an old artilleryman, and I can tell the difference between the smell of artillery propellant, high explosive, and burning gasoline by smell - there was no "missile strike." I know several people who saw the plane fly overhead and of one who saw it hit the building -it was plainly visible from the Marine Annex on a hill above the Pentagon, and it was witnessed by literally scores of people. A fire captain who was an old high school friend helped remove the human remains from what was left of the airframe - which was plainly visible to anyone riding a bus to or from the Pentagon for about two weeks after the accident.
You, sir, are either a liar or a fool. There is no third possibility.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
MidlandPacific wrote: Chapelon- Listen, pal - I was there - I was in the Pentagon! I was in my office when the plane hit, and I heard and felt the impact. I saw the site on the day and afterwards, and I smelled the burning aviation fuel - and yes, I'm an old artilleryman, and I can tell the difference between the smell of artillery propellant, high explosive, and burning gasoline by smell - there was no "missile strike." I know several people who saw the plane fly overhead and of one who saw it hit the building -it was plainly visible from the Marine Annex on a hill above the Pentagon, and it was witnessed by literally scores of people. A fire captain who was an old high school friend helped remove the human remains from what was left of the airframe - which was plainly visible to anyone riding a bus to or from the Pentagon for about two weeks after the accident. You, sir, are either a liar or a fool. There is no third possibility.
HOOAH!
And while I'm at it, you're wrong about Pearl Harbor, too. The only battleships that were absent were the three New Mexico class ships, which had been in the Atlantic for several months, and the Colorado, which was virtually identical to the Tennessee, West Virginia, and Maryland. The newer battleships hadn't even joined the fleet yet.
But why let the truth get in the way of a good story?
lvanhen wrote:My dad & 2 uncles served in the Navy in the Pacific in WWII, my grandfather at Los Alamos. I served in Vietnam (Army) & my 3 sons have all served (Air Force, Army, Navy). Anti Government protesters make me sick - but that's one of the rights we all fought for. God Bless the USA.
Thanks to you and your family for service rendered in the defense of our precious democracy.
Unfortunately it seems that some who protest often forget that they are protesting government policy not the government.
Jon
Heres a photo of the old NYC depot in Robinson,IL, now a war musuem. Just try an stop to think about all those young men who left there on their way to war after Pearl
OH, and anyone who doesn't JP4 doesn't get hot enough to melt steel, has never been through a JP fire. Beileve me it gets very hot, very quick.
inch
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/4309
Modern day torpedoes run on JP5 and I have heard that some of the newer aircraft use JP10!
Inch, thats for the photo. This is definetly one of those buildings that would have stories galore, if it could only talk....
There are some things about 12-7-41 that does not add up.
1.We knew all of their main carriers had left their home waters.
2.We was decoding messages FASTER then the Japanese ambassador and had the 14th part well before 0755.
3.We knew a attack was imminent.More likely the Philippines.
3.Several Warnings was sent to Pearl well before Dec. 7th of possible attacks.
4 The Ward reports firing on and sinking a sub operating within the safety zone at 0645 hours.
5.Radar picks up a huge flight of inbound plans at 0702 .-blown off as inbound B17s
0720 Wards report relayed to Kimmel ..No Action taken.
0733 A war Warning is received by the Western Union in Honolulu and placed with routine messages.
0757 Japanese plans slam into Pearl catching the fleet flat footed.
These first few minutes meant life and death on Battleship row and the airfields.
There are things we knew well before the attack
Nov. 27 - Stimson sends "hostile action possible" warning to Pacific bases
Nov. 28 Navy issues another war warning
Dec. 2 - Magic translates Togo's "boomerang" message to destroy all codes
and
Army G2's Rufus Bratton wants another war warning but Marshall says no-Why?
Famous last words
Dec. 4 - Knox: "no matter what happens, the U.S. Navy is not going to be caught napping."
Dec 6th FDR reads 13-part 900-series intercept: "this means war" but he believes peace can still be obtain.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
You have, I think, to look at some of those times to realize not only how long it physically takes for a message to be passed, but for it to be mentally assimilated and acted on. The Ward's depth-charging of the Japanese sub half an hour before the aircraft arrived over Pearl Harbor is a good example. Half an hour is not much time to assimilate or act on information, if you're not already mentally conditioned to regard it as a sign, particularly if you have settled preconceptions about what's going to happen - and if I remember correctly, the Secretary of the Navy's response when he got the phone call was, "Oh my God - don't you mean the Phillippines?" Everyone was looking the wrong way, and while the signs that they saw might have indicated a war was about to start, they didn't necessarily indicate Japanese airplanes were about to appear over Pearl Harbor. Remember, there were lots of warnings, and the Army and Navy both took countermeasures beforehand - they just took the wrong kind of countermeasures, because they never expected that the Japanese would start an attack on Southeast Asia by hitting Pearl Harbor.
I remember something similar on 9/11. I was watching TV when the second plan hit the WTC, and it was clear to me, as it was to everyone around me, that it could not have been an accident. I can remember thinking "if two, why not more?" And I was vaguely uneasy, and I did think about leaving and going home. But I decided, as most people did, to wait and see what else hap-
BOOM!
And that's how it went. I had half an hour to figure out what was going to happen, based on a series of incidents that didn't necessarily point toward the spot where I was standing, and I didn't quite figure it out. Nobody else did, either.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Guys,We can not over look these cold hard facts.
============================================================
Why was it weekend business as usual when repeated warnings was issued?
Remember lots of key officers wasn't even on their ship.
Chief Boatswain Hill took USS Nevada on her famous sortie as he was the highest rank officer on board.
Why didn't Kimmel order a fleet alert instead of not responding?
Guys,I agree that a air attack on Pearl was the last thing on their minds but,still the cold hard facts remain Japan was going to strike.There was no question about that.
Dave,There is a lot of questions that remains unanswered today about the attack on Pearl..
Well the Nevada got underway in less then a hour DURING the attack as did several destroyers and I know ALL of the ships COULD have sortie away from Pearl after all a flag order went up during the attack:ALL SHIPS IN HARBOR SORTIE.So you can rule out taking a week to get under way.
The fact is they remain in port while the carries left to do some scout work(yet another alarm bell) and ADM Halsey didn't want to slow down his carriers by taking the Battle wagons. .The carriers did a quick port call as well before leaving Pearl for scouting after the attack.Even then there was fear of Japanese subs locating our carriers.
Fellas;
I know this topic has been off-topic and I am surprised that Bergie hasn't killed it. But I have one thing to say on this.
If you really want to know what really went on prior to, during and after Pearl Harbor, you need to read Gordon Prange's two books. The first one, "At Dawn We Slept", deals exclusively with Pearl Harbor. Both from the Japanese standpoint and the American standpoint. The Second book, "Miracle at Midway", deals with Pearl's aftermath up to June 1942 and the victory at Midway.
Mr.Prange was on McArthur's staff during the war, and was charged by him immediately after the surrender to document the Japanese surviving hard information on the planning and execution of the attack. Mr. Prange wound up spending the next 35yrs doing just that. He not only researched the Japanese archives but also the American archives as well. He also interviewed as many of the participants in the planning and execution of the battle that survived including, Genda who planned the attack at Yamamotos bequest, Fujita, who led the attack, Gen. Short, Adm Kimmel, Nimitz, and many, many others. Anyone who was vaguely connected with Pearl Harbor was interviewed. He also became good friends with both Genda and Fujita and visited with them in Japan many times after the war. Mr. Prange died prior to the finishing of what was originally one volume, but his two direct assistants finished the book and divided it into the two books mentioned above.
Many military historians rate these two books as the definitive work on Pearl Harbor and Midway, which are tied together more than most people believe.
My thanks go out to any veteran, whether WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq1&2, no matter when or where you served our country. Because of you, I can post information like this for all to read.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member