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  • Member since
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  • From: Memphis, TN
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Posted by Packers#1 on Wednesday, March 5, 2008 3:22 PM
Pic 2. However, might I suggest a few industries along the back stretch. There is some land that cries out "put in some small industries (2-4 cars per)". If you're planning it like that, not to be cynical, but test fit your track before laying anything, even roadbed.

Sawyer Berry

Clemson University c/o 2018

Building a protolanced industrial park layout

 

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Posted by 4-6-6-4 Challenger on Wednesday, March 5, 2008 6:06 PM
Thanks for all of your tips on my layout.  I have tried and tried to figure out the athens 7.0 thing and have had not luck maybe I am just dumb or something Sign - With Stupid [#wstupid].  If anyone would like to make if for me I would be very very very thank full.  I could do something in return for you.  If someone would do this for me just PM me and ill let you know what I am planning on doing. Thanks for all of the info so far keep it coming.
Nothing is better that a big old Union Pacific Challenger or Big Boy rumbling the ground as it roars by! Modeling the CB&Q in the 1930's in Nebraska
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Posted by 2-8-8-0 on Wednesday, March 5, 2008 7:41 PM

The programs are nice...but they confuzzle me too. Good ol fashioned graph paper works. Pick a scale that works (like 1 square equals 3 inches by 3 inches) and plan your layout. That way, you can get a very good idea of the space various curves and turnouts use. Atlas even makes a small template that you can use to trace the space various turnouts, curves, etc occupy on the layout. You can look through a catalog, and even place buildings on the plan when you know the building's "footprint".

And as a bonus, its a lot of fun (for me anyways!)

have fun!

Tim

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Posted by 4-6-6-4 Challenger on Wednesday, March 5, 2008 7:45 PM
What is a good size of graph paper to use for N scale that would fit on a 12x8ft layout that is in a U shape.
Nothing is better that a big old Union Pacific Challenger or Big Boy rumbling the ground as it roars by! Modeling the CB&Q in the 1930's in Nebraska
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Posted by 2-8-8-0 on Wednesday, March 5, 2008 8:04 PM
Good ol 1/4 by 1/4 works good. Just use a couple sheets if the size of the layout demands. Make sure and plot curves well, a cheap drugstore compass works well for this. Nothing can screw up a layout like a curve you swore would fit.
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Posted by New Haven I-5 on Wednesday, March 5, 2008 9:22 PM

 Hold the phone folks! I'm getting a news flash! Wait.... I'm a N scale model railroader! Yes, I am on the darkside & brightside (dark= n scale. bright=ho scale) . I have started building a simple layout that goes back & forth with no loops. My railroad is based on a coaling railroad.

 

                               No name for it yet!

- Luke

Modeling the Southern Pacific in the 1960's-1980's

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Posted by milkman on Friday, March 7, 2008 5:46 PM
hello guys,  I have a question? problem but a good one  I have been given a right of purchase from the head of the upstairs portion of the layout.. I get to use my part of my tax refund to get a new addition to the fleet,, here is where I need your help,  I am thinking of either a CON-COR  hudson undecorated  brand newfor aprox. $200 or  AM TOTALLY smitten  with the Challenger with sound for  $350  What would you do,,, my track can handle both and both fit the era I am modelling .. PROS>>>CONs....JUST LOOKING FOR YOUR OPINIONS>>>THANKS STEVE
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Posted by wm3798 on Friday, March 7, 2008 6:04 PM

Take the same money and buy four Atlas diesels...

Like the prototype, steam in N scale is a maintenance hog....

Lee 

Route of the Alpha Jets  www.wmrywesternlines.net

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Posted by Cederstrand on Friday, March 7, 2008 6:21 PM

I'm going to build a layout around the size of Dave V's, for a whole host of reasons. I found the following for under $40.

[Masonite/"brand name" 36 x 80 x 1-3/8 In. Flush Hardwood Hollow Core Bored Slab]

I just made a heavy 2x4 frame and glued/screwed a plywood top to it. However, it is very heavy without anything built on it yet. So my question is, should I bag the HEAVY table and start over with an actual door as listed above? I keep thinking of the weight factor if I should ever need to move the layout in the future. I will also be glueing a thick slab of insulation foam to it/

You thoughts and suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks! Cowboy [C):-)] Rob

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Posted by Packers#1 on Sunday, March 9, 2008 8:07 PM

 R. T. POTEET wrote:
Packers#1, glad to have you aboard in the hobby and here on the forum.

I hate to do a Frank Luke on you but you ain't gonna do a "lots of sidings, 5 track yard w/ turntable" in a 4X8 layout space, not unless you are planning on incorporating some incredibly sharp curves to accompany that "incredibly steep grade". You would be hard pressed to incorporate all those features into a midwestern flatland pike, let alone into a "modern-day freelanced railroad that hauls over the Appalachian mountains".

How much trackage do you think you can cram into a 4X8, even in N Scale, without it looking like a 4X8 with a lot of crammed trackage? You are going to want to avoid a the-rat-disappeared-in-that-hole-where-will-it-come-out? bowl of spaghetti. Believe me when I say that your ambition is just a little bit farther than your reach is going to be. KISS!!!!! Examine posted photographs by Dave Vollmer; Dave's layout is built on a hollow core 36X80 inch interior door. That area is smaller than yours but Dave's layout is a master of craftsmanship although only a simple oval with a couple of sidings and virtually no grade at all. I, as well as most other N Scalers, are duly impressed with his modeling. Dave, I understand, acquired a lot of his modeling skills at his pappy's side but, just like the rest of us, he had to crawl before he ever walked and he walked before he ever ran.

Model railroading is, in essence, a practice of illusion; I am not trying to be discouraging; more than anything else I want you to keep from choking on too big of a bite and getting discouraged. I am, unfortunately, almost sure that that is where you are headed if you set your mind to trying to do what you are advocating.

To clear things up, here's some pics for my layout:

Front of yard

Back of yard

Industries

Sawyer Berry

Clemson University c/o 2018

Building a protolanced industrial park layout

 

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Posted by UP Clark on Monday, March 10, 2008 12:49 PM
Got a new question for everyone, are the mechanism and gear rations on the Kato AC-4400 the same as the older C44-9's? I just picked up a new AC-4400 and it's much faster than the older C44's. I understand all about break-in etc. I thaought I had read theat the AC-4400 has a "more prototypical speed" drive"?
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Posted by R. T. POTEET on Monday, March 10, 2008 6:19 PM
 UP Clark wrote:
Got a new question for everyone, are the mechanism and gear rations on the Kato AC-4400 the same as the older C44-9's? I just picked up a new AC-4400 and it's much faster than the older C44's. I understand all about break-in etc. I thaought I had read theat the AC-4400 has a "more prototypical speed" drive"?


It is highly probable that somewhere along the line in the interest of company profitability Kato came up with a cheaper motor and has begun installing it in their more recent releases hence the speed difference. I am not into DCC . . . . . YET . . . . . but I am going to go there; I have a real hodge-podge of N Scale diesels and although most of them are Atlas and Katos they do tell me that one of the really significant factors in DCC is the overcoming of the speed differentials associated with different manufacturers and different locomotives within manufacturers.

RETAININGLY/RESTRAININGLY yours

R. T. POTEET 

From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet

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Posted by navygunner on Monday, March 10, 2008 10:15 PM

Mr. Poteet,

Yup, by all means, go there.  DCC does offer the ability to speed match decoderized locomotives.  I hesitate to say that it will match them to a DC locomotive though.  Older DC stuff was made with high speed mechanisms and DCC will not make it go faster than DC.  Other than that, if you have the money to spend on DCC and the time to spend speed matching then you will save on the time and money spent on matching traditional DC locomotives.  It's a case of realtively certain costs to luck of the draw.  This is just my take on things.

The choice is up to the one spending the money. Smile [:)]

Bob

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Posted by R. T. POTEET on Monday, March 10, 2008 10:36 PM
 navygunner wrote:

Mr. Poteet,

Yup, by all means, go there.  DCC does offer the ability to speed match decoderized locomotives.  I hesitate to say that it will match them to a DC locomotive though.  Older DC stuff was made with high speed mechanisms and DCC will not make it go faster than DC.  Other than that, if you have the money to spend on DCC and the time to spend speed matching then you will save on the time and money spent on matching traditional DC locomotives.  It's a case of realtively certain costs to luck of the draw.  This is just my take on things.

The choice is up to the one spending the money. Smile [:)]

Bob



Bob, I do understand exactly what you are saying: a decoder can put out no more than 12 volts to the motor. Some of my Kato locomotives are approaching twenty years of age and I expect that I am going to find it necessary to remotor and/or regear a goodly portion of my diesel fleet to establish DCC compatability; I expect that that is going to be considerably cheaper than reengining the whole kitnkaboodle.

RETAININGLY/RESTRAININGLY yours

R. T. POTEET

From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet

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Posted by UP Clark on Monday, March 10, 2008 10:55 PM

I've just rekindled the "spirit" and will soon be moving to DCC myself. Most of my motive power has been in storage for 5 to 6 years and right out of the gate needed cleaning and lubrication. Now that I've got most everthing running decent, I'm really seeing the speed differential of Atlas vs Kato vs Brass Imports. I picked up a Kato SD-90MAC and a AC-4400 recently, man was I surprised at the difference in running speeds. I usually buy locos in 2's or 3's so I've got double and triple head power that breaks in together and maintains equal relative speeds between them in a consist.

Fortunately, until I get into DCC, I've been able to match up a few older locos  with the performance of the newer pieces. With max. 2% grades, all trains have to be at least doubleheaded.

What I probably read was that the SD-90's have an updated gear ratio. If the Ac-4400 I picked had as many miles as the C44's, it would slow down a lot also! LOL!!!

Sorry for the rant, read faster and it won't seem so long!!! 

 

 

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Posted by 4-6-6-4 Challenger on Monday, March 17, 2008 8:11 PM

What do you think of my two layout they are both 12x8ft if it were a rectange.  Which one do you like better on the first one it has an industry as in a steel mill on the left side in the blank space.  The second one is my favorite, it seems to flow more.  Let me know which one you like better or what you would do to change it.  The layout is in N scale and all of the curves on the main line are 30" radius curves.  Thanks all the help will be great.

 

 

Nothing is better that a big old Union Pacific Challenger or Big Boy rumbling the ground as it roars by! Modeling the CB&Q in the 1930's in Nebraska
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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Monday, March 17, 2008 8:22 PM

Challenger:

If I may be frank:

Overall concept: great!!!  Looks really good.  The only downside, and this is a big one, is that you've crammed far more industrial/yard trackage than will actually fit in that space.

You may want to invest in a template (Walthers offers one) or check online for one to see just how much room those turnouts need.  I'm afraid you'll find that turnouts and yard trackage are far bigger space hogs that you might think at first.

I like the second plan better, but you'll need to trim down on the yard trackage.

Good luck!

Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.

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Posted by 4-6-6-4 Challenger on Monday, March 17, 2008 8:25 PM
Even tho the the graph paper is 1/4" and the squares equal 3" each?  If so do i just need to change my yard around is every thing else fine?
Nothing is better that a big old Union Pacific Challenger or Big Boy rumbling the ground as it roars by! Modeling the CB&Q in the 1930's in Nebraska
  • Member since
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  • From: Colorado Springs, CO
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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Monday, March 17, 2008 8:32 PM

Yes.

A number 6 turnout in N scale is 6" long (that's two squares).  To have a parallel siding with a number 6 turnout you'll need a full foot (4 squares).

Now, you can use #4s by Peco that are much shorter, but don't expect to run an 0-8-0 through them without some fuss.  I used them once, and basically had to confine myself to small 4-axle diesel switchers on that part of the line.

I now use number 8 turnouts for all but industrial trackage, where I use #6s.  My trains are much happier now.

As for the rest of the plan, I haven't really done a full analysis...  But overall it looks like, with fewer yard tracks, you can do it.

EDIT:  On the second plan, you don't have a crossover between the double-track mains.

Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.

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Posted by 4-6-6-4 Challenger on Monday, March 17, 2008 8:37 PM
Ya I know I forgot to put the cross over on the 2nd layout.  Thanks tho I am going to put some in if I go with the layout.  I would say that the 1st layout just seems to cramed and not organized I just cant find a way to organize it very well.  So Just post comments on the 2nd layout.
Nothing is better that a big old Union Pacific Challenger or Big Boy rumbling the ground as it roars by! Modeling the CB&Q in the 1930's in Nebraska
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Posted by R. T. POTEET on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 1:00 AM

4-6-6-4 Challenger, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but you aint got enough geography for 30" radius curves, not to try to install on a layout of the nature of your drawing; allowing for a 3" scenery buffer around the edge it takes five and a half feet to turnback a 30" radius curve. That only leaves you two and a half feet for tangent between the ends of the curves; that is only barely longer than a football field and it is hardly big enough for any kind of a walk-in space. Do some arithmetic - a twenty four inch shelf with a thirty inch wide walk-in aisle subtracted from an eight foot width leaves you a forty two inch peninsula and when you subtract another six inches for that scenery buffer you are left with an eighteen inch radius curve. A thirty inch radius curve in N Scale equates to a 55" radius curve in HO Scale and there are HO Scalers out there who would kill for room to install a 30" radius curve - 16.5 inches in N Scale - let alone a 55 " radius one.

Model railroading is, in essence, a practice in illusion. Whatever size curve you eventually decide upon - 18/19.5 inch is my suggestion - you need to curve your tangents away from the table edge. Tangent track which parallels your platform edge will cut down on the illusion of depth and make your layout seem very toylike. This parallelism can be mitigated with near eye-level platform heighth but remember, if your track is running one foot beneath your eye level you are, in effect, looking at your layout from a 160 foot tall platform. I make this case almost a fetish. I am designing my platform heighth at 56 inches above the floor, one foot below the top of my head and a mere five inches below the level of my peepers, a scale 66 feet and eight inches; even then there are only limited places where my tangents parallel my platform edge.

Curving your track away from the table edge has one additional benefit: it allows you to use the area outside your track for scenic development. Seeing your train passing behind scenery such as structures will help to break the monotony of our short train lengths and add to the illusion that our twenty car freight is, in reality, one hundred cars long. Now that is illusion!  

From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet

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Posted by fluff on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:15 AM
 wm3798 wrote:

Take the same money and buy four Atlas diesels...

Like the prototype, steam in N scale is a maintenance hog....

Lee 

i have around 30 diesels. only 3 atlas's for some reason. an sd 60 demo and 2 mkt gp 40s. atlas from now on. love mine. had a kato 2-8-2 once, poor puller
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Posted by pcarrell on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:37 AM

 fluff wrote:
had a kato 2-8-2 once, poor puller

You absolutely have to add the Traction Tire upgrade or it'll always be a poor puller.  Adding that upgrade makes Bruce Banner turn into The Incredible Hulk.  She'll climb the walls and be a real stump puller.  Without it though.....yard queen!

Philip
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Posted by fluff on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 11:03 AM
 pcarrell wrote:

 fluff wrote:
had a kato 2-8-2 once, poor puller

You absolutely have to add the Traction Tire upgrade or it'll always be a poor puller.  Adding that upgrade makes Bruce Banner turn into The Incredible Hulk.  She'll climb the walls and be a real stump puller.  Without it though.....yard queen!

now i want one again ?  i think on mine, around 10 cars or so was about it. do the traction tires make it lean any? are they thin enough not to notice? or, is the driver where traction tire goes made to accomidate the traction tire? sorry for all the questions....thanks
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Posted by pcarrell on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 11:44 AM
 fluff wrote:
 pcarrell wrote:

 fluff wrote:
had a kato 2-8-2 once, poor puller

You absolutely have to add the Traction Tire upgrade or it'll always be a poor puller.  Adding that upgrade makes Bruce Banner turn into The Incredible Hulk.  She'll climb the walls and be a real stump puller.  Without it though.....yard queen!

now i want one again ?  i think on mine, around 10 cars or so was about it.

That sounds about right for level track with good rolling cars and no TT (Traction Tire).  With traction tires my Mike pulls 36 cars up 2% grade, no problem. 

do the traction tires make it lean any? are they thin enough not to notice? or, is the driver where traction tire goes made to accomidate the traction tire? sorry for all the questions....thanks

No problem!  The actual wheel is grooved so that the TT fits in the grove.  The only way you'd notice it, besides the pulling power, is that the tread of the tire is black where the rubber is.  Normally you're not going to notice that.  You can get the TT upgrade at most well stocked hobby shops, and I think they're like $7-$8 at mine, so not too bad.  You typically swap it for the last driving axle, though I've heard of some who use it as the next to last axle, and just make sure that everything lines up and then button it back up.  Obviously, you lose some electrical pickup when you do this, but the Kato Mikado doesn't really have too many problems in this area anyways so it's not a real big deal.  Here's the official instructions: http://www.katousa.com/N/Mikado/maint/ttire.html

Philip
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Posted by fluff on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 12:04 PM
36 cars on a 2% grade! i can live with that. i see what you mean now. i was thinking about the old days on ho where you just added a band. swapping the driver makes more sense, especially on n scale. it should do great on almost level track and 20 inch radius curves.(i like to boast about the big curves). directions and all info much appreciated!!!!
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Posted by pcarrell on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 12:06 PM
No problem!  Do this and you'll be out pulling with the diesels!  Double head it, and look out!
Philip
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Posted by fluff on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:16 PM
shopping now!!!
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Posted by Cederstrand on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 9:19 PM

***Philip, I still have one of the first runs with no traction tire and separate details (still not installed). It indeed runs very smooth, quiet and has excellent creep speed, so I have held onto it. Perhaps one day I can hire someone with better eyes to finish pimping it out for me.

Cowboy [C):-)] Rob

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Posted by jwar on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 11:07 PM

Please accept my humble apology for sneaking into your N space. Looking for the rail to rail measurment for the N scale Walters overhead crane 933-3810. Im thinking of cutting it up for a light weight application, but need the hooks and trolly.

Thanks in advance...John

John Warren's, Feather River Route WP and SP in HO

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