Trust me, I am trying very hard to keep it civil. I just can't stand by when advice is given that I think its incorrect/possible harmful to equipment. As an outside party, was there anything in my original post that was offensive/unprofessional? If so, I will edit it and take it onboard as a lesson learned for future reference.
Oh btw, I decided to go with a small N scale layout till I get a house/basement. Track plan to follow shortly for critique.
Dave Loman
My site: The Rusty Spike
"It's a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 2 cents in.... hey, someone's making a penny!"
OK guys, deep breath... There's a lot of great info in this thread; we don't want it locked out because it got ugly!
You guys are actually both military vets but of different services and therefore probably slightly different training.
Anyway, I may need one of you two electronic experts if I fry yet another LED board here! My soldering skills are, in a word, "boorish."
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
claymore1977 wrote: I really don't want to start anything and I normally don't use the word 'wrong'
I really don't want to start anything and I normally don't use the word 'wrong'
Hrm, looks like I did. My bad. Guess I will try to keep this as mature as possible.
R. T. POTEET wrote:I was originally going to pass this over by saying "WHATEVER!' and being done with it but when you made the assinine comment about "PLEASE DON'T GET CONFUSED BETWEEN IMPEDENCE AND RESISTANCE. THEY AREN'T THE SAME THING" and that raised the hackles on the back of my neck.
Thats because they aren't. Since you won't believe me, look it up for yourself. It also was not assinine, its fact.
I site wikipedia:
Electrical impedance, or simply impedance, is a measure of opposition to a sinusoidal alternating electric current. The concept of electrical impedance generalizes Ohm's law to AC circuit analysis. Unlike electrical resistance, the impedance of an electric circuit can be a complex number, however, like resistance, the unit of impedance is the ohm. Oliver Heaviside coined the term "impedance" in July of 1886.
Link to Inductance/Reactance Definition
Electrical resistance is a measure of the degree to which an object opposes the passage of an electric current. The SI unit of electrical resistance is the ohm. Its reciprocal quantity is electrical conductance measured in siemens. The quantity of resistance in an electric circuit determines the amount of current flowing in the circuit for any given voltage applied to the circuit.
Electrical resistance is a measure of the degree to which an object opposes the passage of an electric current. The SI unit of electrical resistance is the ohm. Its reciprocal quantity is electrical conductance measured in siemens.
The quantity of resistance in an electric circuit determines the amount of current flowing in the circuit for any given voltage applied to the circuit.
Link for Resistance Definition
R. T. POTEET wrote: Considering the fact that I have forgotten more about electronics than you will ever know I present to you the following conditions.
Considering the fact that I have forgotten more about electronics than you will ever know I present to you the following conditions.
Wow, that took a dip on the childish side. Please, state your reference that supports this statement! I am deadly serious.
R. T. POTEET wrote:Mailman said that he has an HO POWER PACK - PACK!!! PACK!!!Powerpacks have a set of AC terminals and a set of DC terminals, the DC terminals which are always (if NMRA compliant) 12 VDC. The AC terminals can be almost any AC voltage and MUST be labeled on the outside, not only with the voltage but with the amperage draw. Mailman has a POWERPACK with a set of 19VAC terminals rated at 5.5VA.
Mailman said that he has an HO POWER PACK - PACK!!! PACK!!!Powerpacks have a set of AC terminals and a set of DC terminals, the DC terminals which are always (if NMRA compliant) 12 VDC. The AC terminals can be almost any AC voltage and MUST be labeled on the outside, not only with the voltage but with the amperage draw. Mailman has a POWERPACK with a set of 19VAC terminals rated at 5.5VA.
Yes, and as previously stated, 5.5VoltAmps (Apperant Power) is only good for about 300mA ish at 19Vac assuming a powerfactor of 0.8 (American standard)
R. T. POTEET wrote:All a motor is is a coil and coils have impedance instead of resistance and in order to increase the (theoretical) resistance of an impedance device i.e. motor you must increase the (theoretical) resistance of the circuit and, because it has a motor/coil in it you must place a resistor in PARALLEL across the motor!!!!!!!
All a motor is is a coil and coils have impedance instead of resistance and in order to increase the (theoretical) resistance of an impedance device i.e. motor you must increase the (theoretical) resistance of the circuit and, because it has a motor/coil in it you must place a resistor in PARALLEL across the motor!!!!!!!
I have been wrong before, but this goes against a decade of Navy training and experience. If you are correct I would LOVE to see the reference. I just cold resistance checked my locos motor, then added a resistor of equivilent value in parallel and remeasured the resistance. My experiment followed parallel resistance laws perfectly as circuit resistance dropped by half, which would translate to double the current flow... exaclt opposite of what you said. Since they are seperate branches of the circuit, other than the voltage drop due to increase load at the terminals, the resistor in parallel doesnt affect the motor windings in any way with DC power.
I say resistance because DC will be applied to the motor, not AC. If it was AC then I would say that the motor is exhibiting Reactance, not just Impedance as Impedance is one of three components of Reactance (the others are Capacitive and Inductive). Link
But I also understand that since the motor is not spinning, true Reactance of the motor cannot be measure as the frequency component of the Inductive Reactance is currently zero and therefore overall Reactance is not accurate as I am merely measuring the Resistive component only.
R. T. POTEET wrote:An N-Scale motor does not have enough resistance/impedence to dissipate the wattage (that is what makes a motor go, by the way); try hooking an N-Scale circuit up to an HO pack sometime; any loke on the track will go from zero to 293MPH in about .0006289100456 seconds.
An N-Scale motor does not have enough resistance/impedence to dissipate the wattage (that is what makes a motor go, by the way); try hooking an N-Scale circuit up to an HO pack sometime; any loke on the track will go from zero to 293MPH in about .0006289100456 seconds.
Um, I have been wrong many times in the past and freely admit when I am, but this statement just isn't true. I did just what you suggested and ran HO and N equipment on the same Tech II and it did just what I thought it would... ran just fine. Read over the documentation at MRC's website if you don't believe me.
Here's a few pics of the latest progress on my layout:
My test train runs on 16' of mainline at the moment.
My solution for installing a Tortoise under a WS riser!The test train reaches the end of the line at the Styrofoam Canyon.More details (including why I have some HO track in the picture) in my layout blog: http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/blogs/viewblog.php?userid=6865
trainfreek92 wrote:How many of you guys like Intermountain N scale locos? I got one the other day for my bday. (Maine Central F3A) And it runs very good and quiet. Is this the norm with Intermountain. Honestly it runs better then some of my Atlas n scale locos. What about you guys?
I have an Intermountain SP tunnel motor (short nose). It looks and runs beautifully, but it's the noisiest loco I have. Not much of an issue, though, I probably won't need a DCC sound decoder for that one! :)
The smoothest one I have is an Atlas Dash-840B, runs as smooth as butter.
I have 2 FT A/B sets that see considerable time on the track. They are as good looking and quiet as any offering from Kato or Atlas. They operate at extremely slow speeds without cogging and pull as good as any diesel that I own. Their full throttle speed is not excessive like Kato and older Atlas. I have not owned any of their models that had flaws in detail, but it is my understanding that they are very quick to provide replacement shells in these cases at no cost to the customer.
I also have quite a bit of their box cars and reefers. These are also very nice operating units. They compare favorably to any of the other manufacturers for quality and are reasonabley priced.
Bob
claymore1977 wrote: I really don't want to start anything and I normally don't use the word 'wrong', but R.T. what you said in this last post is highly incorrect and could easily break things.First off, Mailman said he had a 19V AC power pack rated at 5.5VA. 5.5VA @ 19Vac wields about 290mA! That is 0.29A and is barely enough to run a Loco on HO. Plus its AC whereas HO & N locos run on conventional DC (Providing its not DCC we are talking about.) To get that powerpack to work Mailman, you will need to run the output of that power pack through a FullWave Bridge Rectifier. Even then though, you will have about 11.7Vdc with a maximum amp capacity of 290mA. Unless you read the specs on it incorrectly, that power supply just isnt gonna cut it.Second off, N scale locos draw less power which means that their motor's resistance is higher, not lower. (plus don't get confused between resistance and impedance, they aren't the same thing!) You are correct in saying that 12V is 12V if you are talking about taking a 12VDC power pack and using it on both HO and N. No issues there. Just make sure it is actually a 12VDC powerpack!Lastly, adding resistance(and/or impedance) in parallel will not increase the circuits overall resistance, but will, in fact, lower it and draw more current! Which translates into a very hot resistor. If you need to limit current to a device, then install a resistor in series with just that device.
I really don't want to start anything and I normally don't use the word 'wrong', but R.T. what you said in this last post is highly incorrect and could easily break things.
First off, Mailman said he had a 19V AC power pack rated at 5.5VA. 5.5VA @ 19Vac wields about 290mA! That is 0.29A and is barely enough to run a Loco on HO. Plus its AC whereas HO & N locos run on conventional DC (Providing its not DCC we are talking about.)
To get that powerpack to work Mailman, you will need to run the output of that power pack through a FullWave Bridge Rectifier. Even then though, you will have about 11.7Vdc with a maximum amp capacity of 290mA. Unless you read the specs on it incorrectly, that power supply just isnt gonna cut it.
Second off, N scale locos draw less power which means that their motor's resistance is higher, not lower. (plus don't get confused between resistance and impedance, they aren't the same thing!) You are correct in saying that 12V is 12V if you are talking about taking a 12VDC power pack and using it on both HO and N. No issues there. Just make sure it is actually a 12VDC powerpack!
Lastly, adding resistance(and/or impedance) in parallel will not increase the circuits overall resistance, but will, in fact, lower it and draw more current! Which translates into a very hot resistor. If you need to limit current to a device, then install a resistor in series with just that device.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
I picked up an ABBA set of FT's (Santa Fe Cigar Bands) from a dealer on ebay a while back. I love them. They are quiet, smooth and have a decent amount of pull. My only complaint about them was that the A units had a white LED for a headlight that cast the usual blue tint. Since I was converting them all to DCC I replaced the stock LEDs with some that I cut off Digitrax decoders that wound up going into B-units.
Getting the shells off the A-units is a bit touchy. I wedged flat toothpicks under the sides, near the corners to slide the shell up.
I agree, Trainfreek, I think they are a notch better than Atlas and equal to or slightly better than Kato. I say that being perfectly content with the Atlases and Katos on my roster.
- Mark
I've got one of the SD40T-2s in DMIR and I love it, I wanna get the other 2 numbers. Its a great loco. Today was also a good day for track laying. I laid 24 feet of track, scratchbuilt and put in place a bridge, and laid 3 turnouts. Measured how far it was to the other end of the mainline and its 27 feet, and Soon as I can get some money I'll do it
I don't have any, but I've heard good things about them.
I have an MRC 7000 sound and power power pack I've had for years,it has an switch on the back to change from "G" scale to "HO/N" It seams to work fine on my "N" as well as it did on my "HO" I've run as high as four GP'S in consist and had know problems with it,my back up power is an MRC-1370 it handles HO and N also.I hav'nt ever fried an Engine !
JIM
A little trick : I use is to take extria ties and sand them down untell the spike heads are gone,then slide them under the joints in my flex track,I did this when I was doing "HO" and now I do it with my "N" scale and it works great,and looks good!!
my 2cents worth
Dewayne wrote: Mailman, I'd take it to a hobby shop and ask them.You could also do a search on the internet for your model and see what you can find.
Mailman, I'd take it to a hobby shop and ask them.
You could also do a search on the internet for your model and see what you can find.
Thanks, unfortunately, there isn't a hobby shop anywhere around here. Good idea re the actual loco. I did a general google on n scale electrical specs, but it (obviously) didn't turn anything up.
Dewayne wrote: I have been laying a lot of Atlas flex track lately. I really dislike the looks of the ties at the end of a piece of flex when it is joined. I found that Atlas makes "end ties"(ET) for HO flex. This ET is shown in the following URL - https://secure.atlasrr.com/mmMOD1/Images/598.JPG . Atlas does not make these ET's for "N" Flex track. What I have found is if you cut the ET's off of their 2501 straight track they will slip over the flex track very easily. I tried to use ET's off of their curved sections and they don't slip over the flex very well and I advise you not to use ET's off of curved sections. It's a lot of work to get them to fit - not worth the effort.
I have been laying a lot of Atlas flex track lately. I really dislike the looks of the ties at the end of a piece of flex when it is joined. I found that Atlas makes "end ties"(ET) for HO flex. This ET is shown in the following URL - https://secure.atlasrr.com/mmMOD1/Images/598.JPG . Atlas does not make these ET's for "N" Flex track. What I have found is if you cut the ET's off of their 2501 straight track they will slip over the flex track very easily. I tried to use ET's off of their curved sections and they don't slip over the flex very well and I advise you not to use ET's off of curved sections. It's a lot of work to get them to fit - not worth the effort.
I always just took leftover ties, shaved off the spike details, and slid them under the joint. Paint and ballast makes it all look better.
Because I solder my rail joints, it's better for me not to have plastic ties right at the joint until after I'm done soldering. Otherwise the ties can melt. I have soldered joints with "end ties" like the rerailer sections I use for grade crossings. I use a lot of flux and a 140 Watt iron and do it very quickly. Linger more than 1-2 seconds and you turn your ties to goo.
spidge wrote: RR Redneck wrote:GUYS, IT FINALLY HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I finally have secured a place to build my new N scale Layout. It will be 4x8, plenty room.I have buit and dissmantled about six layouts in my time and mostly its because new trackage rights were obtained. I currently finished off two walls in my garage and added partitions to limit the size of the RR. I am committed to this layout and will not expand further into the garage as all it leads to is more plywood layout. Even thogh I don't enjoy some aspects of scenery, once I get past it I love to see the trains run and the visitors see progress.The most successfull and closest to finished layout I had was 3x6 with a fair sized trestle. The size limit actually forced me to move on to the next phase. I had it in the garage and left the door open often causing cureous passers by to investigate. This layout was a big hit and my wife and 14 year old daughter remind me all the time that I should not have tore it down.Be carefull what you think you want. Limit/challenge yourself to get to a certain degree of completteness on a layout. Also, lesson learned, don"t tear the old one down untill you can run trains if possible.
RR Redneck wrote:GUYS, IT FINALLY HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I finally have secured a place to build my new N scale Layout. It will be 4x8, plenty room.
I have buit and dissmantled about six layouts in my time and mostly its because new trackage rights were obtained. I currently finished off two walls in my garage and added partitions to limit the size of the RR. I am committed to this layout and will not expand further into the garage as all it leads to is more plywood layout. Even thogh I don't enjoy some aspects of scenery, once I get past it I love to see the trains run and the visitors see progress.
The most successfull and closest to finished layout I had was 3x6 with a fair sized trestle. The size limit actually forced me to move on to the next phase. I had it in the garage and left the door open often causing cureous passers by to investigate. This layout was a big hit and my wife and 14 year old daughter remind me all the time that I should not have tore it down.
Be carefull what you think you want. Limit/challenge yourself to get to a certain degree of completteness on a layout. Also, lesson learned, don"t tear the old one down untill you can run trains if possible.
Spidge,
Great information and insite! I am on my first layout and will get some work done on it this weekend!! Mine is a 30"x48" not a lot of room but enough for an intresting layout. I am still in the track planing stages, I have put in two basic track plans and neither really worked for me, so on to layouts 3 and 4. Which I hope to put on a disk tonight and bring them into work tomorrow and up load them for comments.
And RR,
Good luck on the 4'x8' keep us posted!!
Curt
John
Thanks Claymore, good info. I think you're correct; I may have misread the pack. Here is all the info. printed on it, exactly as it appears on the pack:
Output: 19V AC 0 ~ 18VDC 5.5VA
Basically, I'm just wondering if I would fry an n scale loco using this pack. Obviously, that would depend on the loco, etc., but just in general.
I have a old tyco im using for now until I get decoders in my locos. One thing though you will want to run multipel locos together to get suck more power, otherwise the loco will basically only run on 1 speed if its running light or with a small amount of rolling stock behind it.
Question for the n scale experts. I have a spare HO power pack, rated at 19 volts ac and 5.5va. Are there guidelines/specs on what size power pack can be used with N scale ?
I'd like to use this spare if possible.
I received the couplers from Kato today and I got them installed with no problems.
Now they are ready to go when I get the layout back in a running condition.
GREAT NORTHERN PACIFIC RAILWAY - Report #1
Land rights have been granted and the Right-of-Way has been cleared. We now have open spaces to begin construction. Land surveying is in the works to determine best passage way with allotted amount of land. Power tools have been gathered from previous borrowers and lumber will arrive soon. Pictures will be posted soon.
The current GNPR will serve the two backwoods towns of Black Diamond and Tincup in the Pacific Northwest and will have interchanges North, South and East to Seattle, Portland and Yakama respectively.
Tincup is the smaller of the two towns with a quarry as it's main industry. There is also a grocer warehouse and large lumber supply near the Tincup depot. In addition there are a few stores in the area serving the nearby residents.
Black Diamond is an industrial town with a fuel depot situated just inside of town as you cross the Green River. The fuel depot carries oil , coal and wood for home heating. Along the line is the Black Diamond depot just before entering the main industrial area. The industrial area is flanked by a large lumber mill and cement plant with a few smaller industrial buildings in between.
Just behind the industrial area of Black Diamond is a small yard where interchanges move out North, South and East.
There is a lot of work to complete but all are looking forward to beginning construction. As construction progresses additional reports will be published and photos provided.
Owner and Operator of The Great Northern Pacific Railway.Headquartered in Olympia, Washington
Rob Newman