What is truely ruining this hobby other than prices.

[marknewton]

Paul3 wrote:

<" The best comment I got was from Bergie, who said he thought about deleting the thread, but because I put so much work into it, he only locked it...Thanks, Bergie! (no, really...honest...it shows he recognized what I had to do to get that list, and it's cool with me that he locked it).

So be prepared Shilshole.">

Prepared for what? The thread being locked?

Or being inundated with examples of rivet counters springing "gotchas" on hapless newbies? That won't happen, because it's the classic strawman argument, as you yourself have noted.

Cheers,

Mark.

[rudywa]

I do not claim to know everything, but what the 53 years of my old age and the roughly 30 some odd years I have loved model railroading and life, in life there are a lot of things you have to let roll off your back if you allow others to dictate your thinking or opinion, you are going to have a limited view, but if you keep an open mind, maybe a questioning mind, you will see many of the know-it-alls in life do not know-it-all, you might just have a better idea. I am not trying to lecture or give old sage advice. Just common sense. I make spelling errors, even though my profession is driven by spelling correctly and I did teach English at one time in my life, Be happy, enjoy the hobby and don't let others ruin it for you....

Life is too short not to railroad....

[Agamemnon]

I'd say it's a matter of the prevailing Zeitgeist and our Weltanschauung. The 21st century seems to me a crueler, more malicious place than the world I grew up in, although it's possible I'm just a cynic.

As far as I personally am concerned, model railroading has all but died in Finland, I'd estimate the influx of new people into the hobby is approaching nil. Quality stuff is unavailable retail, it's simply not profitable in a fringe market like ours. The diehards that remain also don't seem to be interested in renewing their own ranks, instead they just squirrel away in their basements, building limited-run brass kits of local prototypes and loathing anyone who runs locos off-the-shelf.

((Sorry about that opening paragraph, I just felt like talking a bit of German today.))

[Paul3]

I gotta agree with you, Shilshole.  Myself and David Telesha have been saying this for months...that "rivet-counters" get a lot more flack from those who profess not to be rivet-counters than the other way around.  When cornered and asked for examples, they never seem to provide any examples on this forum of any rivet-counters ridiculing others, just vauge replies and personal anecdotes from train shows and RR clubs...but never any MR forum examples.

Before the forum software change, I was challenged to provide examples of anti-rivet counter behavior.  After about 20 examples, I stopped looking and posted the list complete with names.  That's when it got interesting, with some posters calling rivet-counters "evil".  The thread was locked within days, IIRC, but only after I was challenged to show pictures of my models so they could be picked apart (why?  I don't know), being accused of just trying to start trouble (trolling, IOW), taking people out of context (which I said I was doing), and more.  The best comment I got was from Bergie, who said he thought about deleting the thread, but because I put so much work into it, he only locked it.    Actually, I really appreciated that.  Thanks, Bergie! (no, really...honest...it shows he recognized what I had to do to get that list, and it's cool with me that he locked it).

So be prepared Shilshole.

Paul A. Cutler III
*************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************

[selector]

To my way of thinking, this discussion thread has turned into a great example of exactly the problem cited. Lots of confrontation, judgment and folks trying to prove they're 'right'.

I certainly don't think there's any chance a potential entrant to our hobby reading along would feel welcomed by what's happened here or think "Wow, I can't wait to be part of this world!"

QED.  

Or, as someone once said, "Put that in your pipe and smoke it!"

[Anonymous]

To my way of thinking, this discussion thread has turned into a great example of exactly the problem cited. Lots of confrontation, judgment and folks trying to prove they're 'right'.

I certainly don't think there's any chance a potential entrant to our hobby reading along would feel welcomed by what's happened here or think "Wow, I can't wait to be part of this world!"

QED.  

[grayfox1119]

The problem is guys, if you don't know the personality of the person with whom you are replying, then you need to be thoughtful with your replies.

As an example, the Coffee Shop has many repeat customers, we know each other fairly well, some of us have actually visited each other, or, emailed each other several times. As such, we feel quite comfortable with friendly kidding and joking and everyone knows how to take it.

But, on the general forum threads, if you do not know the personality of the person with whom you are answering, you really must be careful. Saying things like" you need to get a thicker skin" is OK for some people, but for others who are of a milder temperment, maybe even an introverted or shy person, it will hurt them like a knife. We must not judge these people, we are all different, so until we know each other well enough, then we need to thoughtful.

You are all great guys in my book, and I will treat each of you with respect at all times. If I run up against a troll, I just ignore them and will not reply just to make "me" feel better.

If I run up against a guy with a bad hair day, I will move on.

If I run up against a guy who always gives answers that are "inflated" shall we say, I quickly learn to take his/her answers/replies with a grain of salt.

[Shilshole]

You're right that after lots of people gave him pushback about this comment, he backed off and shifted his focus to the hobby shop people but the way you characterize it here is highly misleading.  But for the sake of civility, let's call it "embellishment."

<shrug>  Call it what you want.  His original post was a muddle, and his second one clearly denied that the his original intent included behavior on this forum.  To state otherwise is contrafactual.  That responders couldn't wait for him to get his rant straight and misinterpreted his intent is only partly the OP's fault.

The real truth is that there are some jerks on this forum who play "gotcha" with newbies and look for ways to embarass them for a laugh.

Okay, "gotcha": post a link to a recent thread in which that's occurred.  As you're probably aware, it's extremely difficult to assign motives to forum posters.

Here's a recent one: http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/935443/ShowPost.aspx  To the credit of this forum, people did come to my defense.

<boggle>

You're offended by someone suggesting that you do a Google search?  That's an example of the offensive nature of this forum?  You know for a fact that his intent was to embarass you for a laugh?

I'm sorry, but with that, this has gone way beyond relevant.  Maybe you could deal with that poster by PM.  In any case, take a close look at Boxcarmike's post, above.

[whitman500]

I think the OP made his point pretty clear in his second post:  his issue was with perceived behavior on the part of a retailer, and "I personally didnt mean anything directly to anyone on the list".  You and others may consider responses in this forum as inhibiting newbies getting into the hobby, but the OP doesn't, in his own words.  His issue was with hobby shop personnel.

I actually went back and read the original post and the second one and this is not what he said.  Read the 3rd paragraph of the original post:

"Now for this list I have noticed a slight decrease in postings. And I thought is it because of the lack of questions, lack of comments, or just the lack, of respect for others?  I don’t mind being corrected with some things its fine but then, you get the smug people who are like you spelled that wrong, or you did that wrong, or you did something wrong."

You're right that after lots of people gave him pushback about this comment, he backed off and shifted his focus to the hobby shop people but the way you characterize it here is highly misleading.  But for the sake of civility, let's call it "embellishment."

The real truth is that there are some jerks on this forum who play "gotcha" with newbies and look for ways to embarass them for a laugh.

Okay, "gotcha": post a link to a recent thread in which that's occurred.  As you're probably aware, it's extremely difficult to assign motives to forum posters.

Here's a recent one: http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/935443/ShowPost.aspx  To the credit of this forum, people did come to my defense.

 

[Shilshole]

I think the OP made his point pretty clear in his second post:  his issue was with perceived behavior on the part of a retailer, and "I personally didnt mean anything directly to anyone on the list".  You and others may consider responses in this forum as inhibiting newbies getting into the hobby, but the OP doesn't, in his own words.  His issue was with hobby shop personnel.

As for anyone being defensive about the hobby:  Get over it.  The manufacturers, distributers, retailers, and book and magazine publishers aren't defensive.  The NMRA, RPMs, and so-called 'rivet-counters' aren't defensive.  Members of the various on-line railroad modeling and historical society groups and Thomas/Lego modelers with websites aren't defensive.  Most of the posters to this forum actually appear to enjoy their hobby without wondering what others think of them.  Now, I don't read every post on this forum, but I have read a response from only one poster that has called anyone stupid or similar for asking a relevent question -- and that behavior seems to stem from that poster's own personal problems.  One, out of several thousand.  I invite you to post links to threads in which questions from newbies -- or anyone, for that matter -- are treated with disdain.

By contrast, what I have noticed is an abundance of comments disparaging all the unsubtantiated offenses of 'rivet counters' -- ElMik's term -- and those who otherwise strive for protypical accuracy in their modeling.  See, for example, the recent thread on 'No respect for Thomas modeller', in which the OP admitted he may have been mistaken regarding his initial thoughts about whether or not he was treated appropriately at a hobby shop.  I suppose those who must feel defensive about their hobby or some chosen aspect of it need a bogeyman, and 'rivet counters' are convenient because they're 'different'.  Funny thing is, I've yet to see a single 'rivet counter' on this forum -- yes, there are a few -- or at train shows behave as they've been described.  Face it, they're too busy counting rivets to be concerned with the likes of defensive modelers.

The real truth is that there are some jerks on this forum who play "gotcha" with newbies and look for ways to embarass them for a laugh.

Okay, "gotcha": post a link to a recent thread in which that's occurred.  As you're probably aware, it's extremely difficult to assign motives to forum posters.

There was no basis for calling ElMik a liar and doing so was out of line.

I'm in agreement with the OP's call for tolerance, accuracy, and honesty.  If ElMik wishes to embellish his stories, so be it.  Fishermen have perfected the technique, but model railroaders are catching up.

But they <increased standards> can also discourage newbies by making the hobby more daunting than ever and by providing a basis for experienced modelers to talk down to the rest of us.

"Gotcha" again:  post a link showing such behavior.

Why do you feel you have to achieve what's held as a 'standard' in the hobby press?  Is it envy of those who have committed great time and resources to their layouts, or is it something else?  Do you really think that there is a level of effort beyond which nobody should attempt, and if they do, they should be held as the source of your discouragement?  My impression is, and has been, that the hobby welcomes all levels of skill and effort, whether it directed toward Thomas, Lego, or prototype accuracy, and teh Intarnets only confirm that impression.  YMMV, of course.

[Anonymous]

I don't think rude  store clerks or snobbish answers on web sites is hurting this hobby, if you quit trains because of either, you need thicker skin.

First you have to have a passion for trains and I think an exposure to them helps.

 Secondly, time, or the lack of it seems to be a problem. Lets face it, how many hobbies demand so much time and different skills to master? RC airplane and car guys don't build hangars/garages, have scale people to place around. When you think of the layout, track, wiring, buildings, scenery,  etc, these are time consuming activities. In a day of instant gratification, it's a small wonder it attracts as many as it does.

[BRAKIE]

Guys,I guess it boils down to several things.

When a question is ask there is usually several answers plus"fluff" answers.Then some times a answer to a question can be opposite of  the answer we want or looking for and this can lead to debates.Any time a member answers a question his/her  opinion is base on his/her experience on the subject at hand and may show the other side of the coin as what can be done or a different way of doing it..I feel many fail to realize this because of what they was taught,read in a book or magazine and therefore any other way is wrong after all "experts" wrote the books and magazine articles.Think about that for a minute..How do we know these chaps has the absolute way or answer when there is so many answers to the question? Again the "experts" base their knowledge on their own experience just like us that spends time on forums answering questions and those answers may not always agree..

Then asking questions about a given product we must be fully aware of the answers and base out answers on the most positive answers vs. the negative answers and see which out weighs the other allowing again for"fluff" answers.

 Is the behavior of people on this forum and in hobby shops discouraging newbies from entering the hobby?. Absolutely not.

What I fear may send them running for the nearest exit is the way WE and and some hobby shop owners spend the newbies money on things they don't really need to get started-ask any kid(or adult)  that has built a simple train set oval with extra track and 2 or 3 switches on a 4x8 after he/she has spent hours having fun running his/her trains..How did they accomplish this without help from forums? Easy..Our hobby isn't a exact science so anybody with common sense can build a simple layout and that is a historical proven fact since the hobby has been around since 1900.

[reklein]

Kim Komando has an e-mail ettiquite advisory on her website now.

[Tilden]

All I know is people who think they know it all, really bother those of us who do.........

[whitman500]

whitman500: I agree with much of what you stated so well. However I do differ on the point of communication via internet. Many people do not edit or check what they author, and I base that on some mis-types ( notice I did not say mis-spelled, as some people are grammar and spelling challenged so corrections would not be forthcoming on any edit ) But my main point is......when we speak face to face with people, we are more cautious on how we say things when we disagree, or want to really slam someone ( aren't we all a little like this at times if we are honest with ourselves ?) But doing this face to face is really much harder, then when we cannot see them, and they miles away on the internet, and most likely will never meet them. Face to face really does temper most comments doesn't it?

I would agree with that.  Maybe the right way to think about it is that the Internet exaggerates a person's natural tendencies.  If you're someone that tries to be careful about not offending other people, then you'll be even more careful on the Internet since you can take the time to choose your words carefully.  If you're someone that doesn't mind offending others (or even does so deliberately) then the Internet makes you worse because you can say what you want without repercussions and, if you're so inclined, take the time to think of the perfect insult. 

[grayfox1119]

whitman500: I agree with much of what you stated so well. However I do differ on the point of communication via internet. Many people do not edit or check what they author, and I base that on some mis-types ( notice I did not say mis-spelled, as some people are grammar and spelling challenged so corrections would not be forthcoming on any edit )

But my main point is......when we speak face to face with people, we are more cautious on how we say things when we disagree, or want to really slam someone ( aren't we all a little like this at times if we are honest with ourselves ?) But doing this face to face is really much harder, then when we cannot see them, and they miles away on the internet, and most likely will never meet them. Face to face really does temper most comments doesn't it?

[whitman500]

Missed the follow-up, huh?

No.  I read it.  Is your point about semantics (i.e., he's not a liar, he's an embellisher)?  Or is your point that he proved himself a liar through his response (which, incidentally, doesn't change the validity of my comment).

[whitman500]

Going back to the original post, I think two questions were raised:

1.  Is the behavior of people on this forum and in hobby shops discouraging newbies from entering the hobby?

2.  Is this problem getting worse?

I think there is at least some evidence to suggest that the answer to both of these questions is yes.  From reading through this thread, however, what I see is a lot of people trying to paper over the problem by blaming the Internet as an imperfect medium for communication (personally, I think this is a pretty weak argument since you can always reread and edit your posts before hitting the send button; you can't do that when talking to someone).  But let me digress a little.  I've seen this complaint raised several times before and yet most people on the forum never seem to want to admit that this is a problem.  We are all a little defensive about this hobby since it's no longer mainstream or "cool" and there is a tendency to view any criticism of how this forum operates as an attack on the hobby.  People close ranks and deny the problem and nothing changes. 

The real truth is that there are some jerks on this forum who play "gotcha" with newbies and look for ways to embarass them for a laugh.  This is not good for the forum or the hobby and the rest of us should try to stand up for people getting picked on unfairly.  In that vein:

There was no basis for calling ElMik a liar and doing so was out of line.

Moving on, the other thing I was thinking about while reading through the post was that one of the reasons this problem may be getting worse is that I feel like the standards in the hobby have really increased in recent years.  If I look back at the some of the older Great Model Railroads I see layouts that are quite good but within the capabilities and resources of a determined modeler.  The more recent issues seem to feature layouts that approach perfection.  These are layouts that fill 1,500 squate foot basements with working signal systems, hand-painted backdrops, hundreds if not thousands of elaborate trees, buildings scratchbuilt to match the prototype, and track plans developed off of the real thing.  In some respects, these things are good.  They give the serious modeler something to aspire to.  But they can also discourage newbies by making the hobby more daunting than ever and by providing a basis for experienced modelers to talk down to the rest of us.  I'm not sure if there is a solution to this but I think it explains why this problem may be getting worse.   

[Shilshole]

Missed the follow-up, huh?

[whitman500]

Out of idle curiosity, exactly how many times has the "That thing is stupid" phrase been spoken to you?

Not once.

Neither did I hear that comment made at trainshows with (GASP!!! LEGO TRAINS) Running at top speed.

Neither have I, and I've attended a fair number of shows and other 'mixed' events over the last three decades.  What does stand out from a recent event is members of a prototype-oriented club taking time from running their modular layout --  effectively shutting it down for a half hour or so -- to help diagnose and fix problems with a nearby Thomas layout.

...the perennial favorite for the rivet counters to bash...

Ah.  I see you have an agenda.  You'll understand why I don't believe a word you typed.  But then, it was only idle curiosity.

It looks like ElMik can add 1 "being called a liar" to his list of "That thing is stupid."

[Shilshole]

No agenda, just a commonly used term for people who have a need for more "correctness" than I care to bother with.

Thanks for making my point.

As for whether you believe me or not, well.... would you call someone a liar to their face? Isn't that EXACTLY part of what this thread is about?

Yes, I would, although in this case I prefer to think that you were embellishing for effect.

And no, the OP wasn't talking about story-telling.  Although it was a bit confused and overly dramatic, his narrative, as finally revealed in his second post, appeared to be a plea for tolerance, flexibility, and accurate sharing of knowledge on the part of sales personnel.  A few responders ignored that and, ironically, displayed exactly what he was decrying.

He makes a good point:  sales personnel do need to approach potential customers without an attitude, whether it's at the LHS or the local cholesterol vendor.  On the other hand, the OP could learn to take things less personally, gain some knowledge, and think beyond his own backyard.  If behavior on the part of retail personnel was ruining the hobby, MRRing --and just about every other retail effort -- would have been dead and buried long ago.

[rrebell]

Remember also cultrural differences, New Yorkers tend to be very blunt, seen others that are downright appoligetic giving answers. Also many in the sci-fi comunity give very to the point answers without elaborating unless you ask, and every other subgroup has their quirks.

[Anonymous]

Ah.  I see you have an agenda.  You'll understand why I don't believe a word you typed.  But then, it was only idle curiosity.

No agenda, just a commonly used term for people who have a need for more "correctness" than I care to bother with. What's YOUR agenda?

As for whether you believe me or not, well.... would you call someone a liar to their face? Isn't that EXACTLY part of what this thread is about?

[Anonymous]

I would suggest that the author of this thread  reread its' subject heading and each successive poster hereto reread their post as if they were a possible interested candidate to join this WGH. Is it possible that they would expect it to be overpriced, that they would be subjected to ridicule, etc. from what they read here? IMHO the answer is yes.  Could this possibly cause them to move on. IMHO, yes.

Don

[VulcanCCIT]

being a virtual newbie since I only did one small quick S scale American Flyer layout 20 years ago...I have found this forum to be awesome.  I have only posted a few questions but have found everyone informative and friendly...I post on a lot of computer and engineering forums and they can be real pissy... I find you all to be awesome!  So for what it is worth, I thank you all!

[Shilshole]

Out of idle curiosity, exactly how many times has the "That thing is stupid" phrase been spoken to you?

Not once.

Neither did I hear that comment made at trainshows with (GASP!!! LEGO TRAINS) Running at top speed.

Neither have I, and I've attended a fair number of shows and other 'mixed' events over the last three decades.  What does stand out from a recent event is members of a prototype-oriented club taking time from running their modular layout --  effectively shutting it down for a half hour or so -- to help diagnose and fix problems with a nearby Thomas layout.

...the perennial favorite for the rivet counters to bash...

Ah.  I see you have an agenda.  You'll understand why I don't believe a word you typed.  But then, it was only idle curiosity.

[jamesbaker]

Ok I think I see a spot open for me. Oh yes here it is.

I was a newbie at one point in time. Well I am not sure but I think we were all Newbies at one point. Yes I have posted things that have been posted before. I am sure that alot of us have.  If you look through the website you will find more then one of DC or DCC ect.........

But I will say I have used the search here on this site and I will be honest IT DOES NOT WORK MOST OF THE TIME.  I have searched for something that I know is here some where because I have seen it and did not post in it. There for when I search for it, I came up with nodda!

 

I will have to say that the way I was spoken to as a newbie by some of the members here on this site made me want to stop and find another hobby.  Yes us newbies want answers pretty fast. But only because we are excited and ready to leave for a hobby store.  We are like the puppy that pisses on the floor when  company comes over for the first couple of times all because of excitement.

All of the people here that are no longer newbies should take the time to help a newbie insted of telling him to search for it. Maybe some of use did and nothing come up!!


Baker

[conrail92]

The internet saved me much time and stres. And if i didnt have it i wouldnt think id be where im am today. Because where i live the closet LHS is 15 mins away but its only open Tuesdays-Thursday 4:30-8:00 and the next closet would be 30 mins away and not always easy to acess. Places like this have saved some people from great agony.

[on30francisco]

I have found a much more diverse group of people on-line, not only on this and other forums but also from online hobby shops and small cottage industry suppliers, that offer a treasure trove of information on just about any phase, scale, gauge , etc of this hobby. Unfortunately, I have noticed many, but not all, LHSs have an attitude or are cliquish if you aren't modeling or interested in their particular scale, gauge, prototype etc. This attitude I believe is having a negative effect on potential beginners who do not have internet access. Although I've been modeling since the early 60s, if I had to rely strictly on the LHSs in this area for information or equipment for my chosen railroad, I would have a very difficult time participating in this hobby.

[conrail92]

Lately I have seen people acting smug and being Mr. Know It All’s. People ask what happened to kids, and adults getting into this hobby?

 

Im 15 and i greatly liked the hobby since i was 8, And you have too look at both sides of things sometimes it can be hard to express there thoughts with the keyboard. its always hard to tell someones view point when reading there text. And you can realy never know the intentions they had when they made the comments. At the same time people can be a bit smug but not as much on these forums as you would see in real life. I have been to hobby stores where the Workers look at me like im stupid when i ask question that they think would be easy fix.