Yeah Bob,I agree..However like everything else if you want a decent curve those turn backs can eat up the space especially in a small room..
IF I could go around the walls I would simply cross the doorway on a 1 foot wide duck under..
GearDrivenSteam wrote: Shelf layouts don't have to be switchers. You can turn it around on the ends and make it a dogbone. A 90 degree dogbone wlii work great as a shelf layout. BRAKIE wrote: This layout would work for me minis the third inter curve..In fact IF I had the space I would build this layout. http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg Guys,Do recall switching layouts isn't everybody's cup of tea..I will be the first to admit switching layouts can become boring even when properly design..I speak from years of experience since 98% of my layouts has been switching layouts.
Shelf layouts don't have to be switchers. You can turn it around on the ends and make it a dogbone. A 90 degree dogbone wlii work great as a shelf layout.
BRAKIE wrote: This layout would work for me minis the third inter curve..In fact IF I had the space I would build this layout. http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg Guys,Do recall switching layouts isn't everybody's cup of tea..I will be the first to admit switching layouts can become boring even when properly design..I speak from years of experience since 98% of my layouts has been switching layouts.
This layout would work for me minis the third inter curve..In fact IF I had the space I would build this layout.
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg
Guys,Do recall switching layouts isn't everybody's cup of tea..I will be the first to admit switching layouts can become boring even when properly design..I speak from years of experience since 98% of my layouts has been switching layouts.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Jetrock wrote:If you only have room for a 4x8 layout, it's safe to assume that you have an 8x10 room to work with, assuming two feet of clearance on three sides of the layout (8x12 if you assume clearance on all four sides.) This means that you can cut that 4x8 sheet of plywood into four 1x8 foot shelves, and put shelves all the way around that 8x10 room.
If you only have room for a 4x8 layout, it's safe to assume that you have an 8x10 room to work with, assuming two feet of clearance on three sides of the layout (8x12 if you assume clearance on all four sides.) This means that you can cut that 4x8 sheet of plywood into four 1x8 foot shelves, and put shelves all the way around that 8x10 room.
That's not always so... You're assuming the space is "dedicated railroad space", which in my case isn't so... i have a 4x8 and the walkways around the layout are also used for other purposes. i have about 75-80 feet of track. the layout includes a 2 track yard with an engine servicing area, an interchange track, and 4 sidings (including one switchback). the only problem i face, tho, is finding structures small enough to fit the layout.
jeffrey-wimberly wrote: Why? Because I've seen a lot of complex 1st layout plans never get farther along than the track-laying stage before the modeler decides they've gone in too deep. You say you're building your first. That's fine. I built my first in 1966, and many more since then. What I said, I said from harsh experience.
Why? Because I've seen a lot of complex 1st layout plans never get farther along than the track-laying stage before the modeler decides they've gone in too deep. You say you're building your first. That's fine. I built my first in 1966, and many more since then. What I said, I said from harsh experience.
Fair enough.
My objection was to "no hope of finishing" in your original post.
Big difference between that and "a lot" that don't get finished.
GearDrivenSteam wrote:Perhaps a 4 X 8 shelf layout?
Ummm. Okay... (wink, wink) I'll sure take that into consideration GDS.
Tracklayer
sovirginian wrote: No Tracklayer, I did not intend to offend. If you had provided a little of this later info, the question would have begged an answer. First, is a 4 x 8 all the space your friend believes he will ever have? Is a thousand dollars an initial investment or the total sum he will ever spend on this hobby or layout? A 4 x 8 could have two levels for independent time periods, times four sides, equals 8 eras of railroading history, if the table is approx. 52 in. high, built as an L-girder, with the second shelf layout extending at, say, 32-36 inches. You did not mention your friends desire for DC or DCC, if you have given him a track preference, etc.. There are some industries, in small towns, which have not shown visible change in 150 years, i.e., lumber, milling, mining. Wish him the best and a long association with this hobby. Don
No Tracklayer, I did not intend to offend. If you had provided a little of this later info, the question would have begged an answer. First, is a 4 x 8 all the space your friend believes he will ever have? Is a thousand dollars an initial investment or the total sum he will ever spend on this hobby or layout? A 4 x 8 could have two levels for independent time periods, times four sides, equals 8 eras of railroading history, if the table is approx. 52 in. high, built as an L-girder, with the second shelf layout extending at, say, 32-36 inches. You did not mention your friends desire for DC or DCC, if you have given him a track preference, etc.. There are some industries, in small towns, which have not shown visible change in 150 years, i.e., lumber, milling, mining.
Wish him the best and a long association with this hobby.
Don
Thank you Don. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
Tracklayer (Mark)
I am getting into the hobby for the first time really (my dad built me a layout when I was <10, I still have some HO and N gauge engines!), and I would love to have $1K and a 4 x 8, I haven't put the thought into this that experience MR's have but I stand by my first post to keep the layout simple and just run trains. I remember loving my little N gauge switch engine because it never had a problem, in fact when I found my old stuff a few weeks ago and set up a circle on the basement floor, the little switch engine still made it around a loop until the poorly laid track flew apart. It's probably been about 27 years since it last made a loop - and I never did any shunting.
What I'm trying to say is get a simple classic layout, here is a link to one of my favorites, it's from Atlas. Get yourself set up to run the trains on a layout that allows you to run more than one. Initially don't worry so much about "era" or "theme" - find out what you like and incorporate that into layout #2.
The most obvious thing in visiting these forums is that everyone who has a layout #1 and enjoys it makes a layout #2 and enjoys it more!
Besides, that steam engine can always be a tourist train or something later in life, they still run those sometimes!
Personally, I love switching layouts (which is why im starting my sectional build with a switching area).. Switching layouts might be a good place for a beginner to start just because you get used to operating a yard or an industry, you don't have to build a complex looping layout that you dont even see the train for 3/4 the time, and you get to really work your detailing skills in all of the industry you build and you can work in a lot of landscaping and scenery.. if you get bored of running the train through the yard just remember this... its your first layout you are bound to move on to bigger, bolder and more dynamic layouts once you have many skills under your belt!
Well,I am not exactly what you would call a rookie in designing a prototypical industrial switching layout seeing I have built several over the last 18 years-the last loop layout I had was in 1988..I also have built 4 branch line layouts.So,I will stand by my statement that switching layouts can become boring.
Of course a switching or branch line layout can be a highly detailed finish layout that will out shine most other layouts as far as detailed scenes..
Wow Jetrock!. You really put some thought into it didn't you... And so did so many others. However, some of you really took it and ran with it. I guess that's my fault for not establishing some hard core ground rules from the very start.
How this got started in the first place is that I've got a friend that seems interested in having a 4 X 8 HO table layout because that's about all he has room for, and though I could have easily thrown something together for him, I told him that I would see what you guys could come up with first. He's not a real high tech guy, so when all's said and done he'll probably end up with a basic roundy round track configuration with a side track, a small town in the middle of the layout, a station and maybe a rice dryer or some other type of industry. The layout and table alone will run him about $600.00, and he'll probably use the other $400.00 to buy lower end locos and rolling stock. That'll at least get him started.
Thanks guys.
BizDoc wrote:On that HOG layout, I wonder if you could do it as an around the walls layout, I have space for that. I also wonder if you could do it in N.
Just lengthen the sections to fit your room space.
Just a thought
Harold
This will allow about 32 feet of mainline running, half an HO mile, about twice as much mainline as a 4x8 plan.
It will also allow you to use much broader curves, potentially 36" or broader if you can cut a couple of triangular pieces of plywood to fill in the corners.
It will also allow you to have four separate scenes, one along each wall, which will be physically isolated from each other, allowing for a great sense of space since you can't see the whole layout from any one point in the room. Admittedly, one of these scenes will have to include a lift-out, swing-up or swing-down bridge (or a duckunder for the masochists) but that's a small price to pay for way more flexibility in layout planning. You'll have room for a double-ended yard, two different industry settings, and a section of plain ol' running through the countryside. Because all four shelves are connected, you can have continuous running--you'll want a revolving chair for the center of the room in order to avoid dizziness.
As to do it for about $1000, well that is a challenge. Personally, I'd do it on flatland, rather than a lot of exotic terrain: perhaps a Midwestern or desert theme. This means that I can add a sub-frame to the plywood using cheap 1x2 lumber. I'd use L-bracket shelves from the local home improvement store to mount the layout to the walls. I suppose that if I had the choice of foam or plywood for the 4x8 sheet, by choosing foam I'd have the option of easily sloping down below grade without having to do a bunch of cookie-cutter or L-girder work. Leftover bits of foam can be used to build up above grade for gentle hills.
I prefer Woodland Scenics foam for roadbed, and for economy's sake I would recommend Atlas Code 83 or 100 flex track and switches. In order to economize on track I'd try and minimize the number of turnouts. Tentatively I'd want a three-track double-ended yard, with a two-stall enginehouse, so I'd need eight turnouts for that--that's about $110 in turnouts for non-remote Snap-Switches already! Figure on four switches each (a passing track and two single-point spurs) for each industrial area, and none at all for our scenic route, so that's another $110. Five-packs of Atlas flextrack run about $15, and personally I'd recommend 75 feet of track to provide enough for mainline, yard tracks, passing tracks and spurs: that's $75. So track alone is around $300. Don't forget a powerpack and wiring--personally I like having power drops every 3-6 feet, although some advocate power running to each piece of track. By using a bus that follows a main you'll be able to switch to DCC fairly easily.
Backdrop will be important, but it's cheaper to paint/print/glue scenery and buildings to a backdrop than to build them. Use 1/8" Masonite, available in 2x4 sheets. It can be bent to make big wide corners or you can buy coved bits of wood trim to make very sharp corners for your layout's corners--that's up to you--or you can just leave your corners pointy and hide them with hills or big buildings. Paint 'em with a quart of sky-blue latex house paint, use a 98 cent spray can of white paint to make some fluffy clouds, and then use the artistic ability of your choice (either your own painting skill, pre-made backdrop paintings, or photos scanned and printed using an inkjet printer and glued to the backdrop) to add background. But even plain sky-blue backdrop will add considerably to realism.
For scenery, a run to a home-improvement store will get you a big bag of Hydrocal and a big pack of paper towels, a roll of painter's tape, some Elmer's glue, some rubbing alcohol, and a gallon of paint in a suitable dirt color. You can also harvest some dirt around the neighborhood for free, sift it in a discarded colander, bake it for a couple hours at 200 degrees, and run a magnet over it to pick up the metal bits. Using some extra Styrofoam or balled-up newspaper, make your landforms (tape them in place with the tape), plop Hydrocal soaked paper towels down (you did cover your track with the leftover tape, didn't you?) and once that is dry paint it with the gallon of paint. Add dirt on top while the paint is still wet, and/or Woodland Scenics ground foam. Trees and other shrubbery are up to you: roads can be made from plaster and painted appropriate roady colors with latex paint or craft paints.
Structures are a highly personal choice--ideally you'll have some idea what kind of industries you want to serve before you start building. You can always scratchbuild, use printed cardstock buildings (or PDFs of buildings printed onto cardstock in your inkjet printer) or hunt for deals at train shows or your local hobby shop's discount table. If you want to model a large building, considering just modeling the front wall and gluing it to the backdrop: this will let you model big warehouses or large factory complexes by omitting those unnecessary other three walls and roof things and just showing the interesting bit where railroad cars are parked for loading and unloading.
And then there's that lift-out bridge. Personally, I'd cut out a three-foot length of that 1x8 sheet (using the extra to shore up my corners for broader curves) and use a three-foot length of 2x4 or other very sturdy dimensional lumber for the bridge itself. I'd paint the sides a Day-Glo color, black on the top, and mount track to the top of the 2x4. By gluing (or nailing) some cheap Atlas bridge-girder sides parallel to either side of the track, I'd create the impression of a long truss bridge and provide a margin of safety in case of derailment on the bridge itself. A hinge under one end of the 2x4 and a barrel bolt on the other end would allow an easy drop-down, and I'd also include a microswitch attached to the drop-down that would kill power to the track for a foot or so in either direction to avoid disaster should a train approach the bridge while the gate is open.
The room, as such, would still have a 6x8 foot open section in the middle for visitors or operators, and room for short bookshelves (for storage) or a work table (for construction or repair) under the layout itself.
Texas Zepher wrote: Tracklayer wrote:If you only had room for a 4 X 8 foot HO layout and about a thousand dollars to spend on it, how would you design it ?. Keep in mind that trains of all eras will be ran on it at one time or another so please don't design it for one particular time period. Have fun... I took this post to be a "challenge" rather than Tracklayer asking for help with a layout design. Tracklayer, am I correct? As such many people rather than stepping up to the challenge are trying to change the parameters, which would defeat the purpose.
Tracklayer wrote:If you only had room for a 4 X 8 foot HO layout and about a thousand dollars to spend on it, how would you design it ?. Keep in mind that trains of all eras will be ran on it at one time or another so please don't design it for one particular time period. Have fun...
Oh, yeah...! Duh! Tracklayer, you're an N scaler, aren't you? So of course this isn't for you.
I'm probably not up to your challenge then. I could envision a 20-30, maybe 40 year window in which you could change eras without too much loss. But, to cover 170 years of railroading... I guess you'd have to have only a handful of structures and even make the lineside details removable.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
My thought is since it has to be era independent the only choice is to do a natural scenery only layout. No automobiles/horse& wagons, no structures, no track side support features, even no bridges. Trees, rocks, and water are about the only thing that can be era independent. The track could even be a problem in that area. As the era thing eliminates industrial areas, the only interest would be to make it as long as possible with grades. I was thinking a smashed figure-8 on a grade, but that would need at least two bridges.....Hmmm how about a 3 times around with a crossing on the lower loop, and a tunnel under for the other crossing.
BRAKIE wrote: Guys,Do recall switching layouts isn't everybody's cup of tea..I will be the first to admit switching layouts can become boring even when properly design..I speak from years of experience since 98% of my layouts has been switching layouts.
jeffers_mz wrote: jeffrey-wimberly wrote:For somebody starting out, I would use the KISS principle. Keep It Simple and Stupid. Don't jump into a complex plan that you have no hope of finishing. Start out with something simple like a double oval with an inside yard. You can always add more later. Use the remaining money on the trains, again, starting out simple. Several short wheelbase locos like F7's or GP30's pulling strings of 7 to 10 40' or 50' cars. This can always be expanded later. Why do you assume a beginner won't complete a complex track plan? From what I can tell, most layouts never get finished regardless of complexity. :-) I had a simple layout as a kid, but my dad laid the track and wired it up, so this one is really the first I've built. It's coming along great. I just planted 300 pines since my last post. Another 300 trees, about two more square feet of scenery, and all that's left then is buildings and water. Monday marks one year since we started. I think finishing a layout is a concious decision you make, and much less a question of your track plan..
jeffrey-wimberly wrote:For somebody starting out, I would use the KISS principle. Keep It Simple and Stupid. Don't jump into a complex plan that you have no hope of finishing. Start out with something simple like a double oval with an inside yard. You can always add more later. Use the remaining money on the trains, again, starting out simple. Several short wheelbase locos like F7's or GP30's pulling strings of 7 to 10 40' or 50' cars. This can always be expanded later.
Why do you assume a beginner won't complete a complex track plan?
From what I can tell, most layouts never get finished regardless of complexity.
:-)
I had a simple layout as a kid, but my dad laid the track and wired it up, so this one is really the first I've built. It's coming along great. I just planted 300 pines since my last post.
Another 300 trees, about two more square feet of scenery, and all that's left then is buildings and water. Monday marks one year since we started.
I think finishing a layout is a concious decision you make, and much less a question of your track plan..
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
If you want to shift eras all the way to today, it'll be very, very hard to fit modern railraoding in HO in 4x8. Your trains will be very short (maybe 5-7 60+ foot cars at best before you're chasing the FRED) and your six-axle diesels will be grinding against the rails in those tight curves. So, I suggest:
1. Stay in HO but model prior to the 1970s.
2. Do a shortline so that you can go post 1970 with small diesel power.
3. Go N scale.
I got sick of the limitations in HO given the space I had, which is exactly why in 2001 I ditched my HO 4x8 and went N (option 3). Now, in 3X7 I have much more railroad than I did in HO in 4x8.
In N scale, you can do any era on a 4x8 and still have gentle enough curves and turnouts. Plus, you can have 12+ car trains without looking silly.
Just a suggestion.
-
Tracklayer wrote: Keep in mind that trains of all eras will be ran on it at one time or another so please don't design it for one particular time period.
Keep in mind that trains of all eras will be ran on it at one time or another so please don't design it for one particular time period.
This sentence has to be changed or it is just a trackplan and not a layout. Your operational goals and planned equipment have to be involved in the planning, in my opinion. With only 4x8 to work with you are going to have to be really selective in what 'makes the grade', so I don't think generic works at all. There is a 'generic' plan in the most recent (just out) MR in N-scale, but the space is larger, and it is N-scale, which allows for a few more generic industries and some mainline. I'm still not sure it qualifies as a layout so much as a trackplan, but I haven't finished looking at it yet.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
Tracklayer wrote:If you only had room for a 4 X 8 foot HO layout and about a thousand dollars to spend on it, how would you design it ?. Keep in mind that trains of all eras will be ran on it at one time or another so please don't design it for one particular time period. Have fun... Tracklayer
If you only had room for a 4 X 8 foot HO layout and about a thousand dollars to spend on it, how would you design it ?. Keep in mind that trains of all eras will be ran on it at one time or another so please don't design it for one particular time period. Have fun...
Folded dogbone, upper and lower level. Nice long mainline runs, an apparant two track main, and you can fit it into 45 inches wide, with a lower level spur or two, two or three spurs inside the graded area, and another spur or two on top.
That three extra inches out to 48 is a good place for an interchange, two eight foot tracks to nowhere for expansion and staging.
Then when space allows, a drop leaf or two on either end, and even later on, additional 4x8 modules. around the room shelving, whatever you like.
Here's where my thinking is at right now, staging for 12 trains, a yard, an interchange, a major industry, three towns, and three independant mainline loops, allowing both detailed operations, and up to 6 trains doing roundy-round at once, in 5 by 14 feet, expanded easily from the original 4x8...
For the spaghetti bowl haters, this is what you actually see with the terrain in place...
Be aware, if you decide to take this approach and cover up this many turnouts, your trackwork, locos and rolling stock have to be perfect, and you have to leave access. It also requires 15 inch curves on the spurs, though the mains are all 18 and 22 inch.
This is where it started:
...and this is where it stands right now:
sovirginian wrote:I would spend the first 60-80 dollars on books which would allow me to ask a more informative question. Your question indicates more of a toy train bent than that of a modeller. This is my honest response and is not meant to offend.
Yes you did mean to offend sovirginian, but are pretending not to... The fact is I have several hundred dollars worth of model railroading and layout design books, but thought the subject would be fun for new and/or younger members to ponder to see what they might come up with. Sorry that you were offended by my "simple" posting.