How would you design a 4 X 8 foot HO layout ?...

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I bet when you started this, you never dreamed it would turn into 4 pages.

[fsm1000]

Jim, I did exactly that myself. My layout is on casters and I just pull it out a bit [kind of on a slant] and it works for me. I have mine in my living room and it works out great.

[Soo Line fan]

Tracklayer,

One thing you might want to consider is putting the layout on casters. Then you can shove it against a wall, which is a big advantage if space is an issue. When work, maintenance or a derailment occurs, access to the back ½ is easy.

The rear backdrop can be fastened to the wall. Side backdrops can be attached with wing nuts so removal is easy.

Attach the legs with screws so you can move or store it if necessary.

Download the Atlas software and try out some designs before wasting time.

For a plywood top, a hot glue gun is hard to beat for attaching everything from cork roadbed to buildings. I have not tried it on foam however.

Like others have said, try to use materials from one or more of the large home centers.

 

Jim

[SpaceMouse]

Hi Chip. It's been a long time. Hope all is well with you and yours.

 

Everything is great. I've made a career change and have been studying in what would have been my online time. Thanks for asking.

 

[Tracklayer]

I know I am entering this conversation late.

But if you want to get the best bang for the buck, and if you want more than just a toy train looped-de-loop. you have to have a specific era and specific road and a unifying theme. If you have all those, you can make intelligent choices and shop for the bargains that fit your theme.

I literally got into my 4 x 8 by mistake. But once there, I found that I had both local switching and mainline running--and I believe I pulled it off. Not bragging, I had a lot of help. But if you plan well, I mean really think it though, you can solve just about any problem. My layout is no longer a 4 x 8, I added a foot of staging. But it is point to point and continuous running.

One side of the point-to-point: Rock Ridge

The other side of the point-to-point: Train City

 

Hi Chip. It's been a long time. Hope all is well with you and yours.

As I explained earlier, this is all for the sake of a friend of mine (Steve) that's thinking about getting into the hobby. He's been monitoring this thread as it's grown. I've invited him to join the forum and ask his own questions but I think he's a bit shy yet.

Thanks guys. There's a lot of great ideas and opinions here, and I really appreciate you taking the time.

Tracklayer

[SpaceMouse]

I know I am entering this conversation late.

But if you want to get the best bang for the buck, and if you want more than just a toy train looped-de-loop. you have to have a specific era and specific road and a unifying theme. If you have all those, you can make intelligent choices and shop for the bargains that fit your theme.

I literally got into my 4 x 8 by mistake. But once there, I found that I had both local switching and mainline running--and I believe I pulled it off. Not bragging, I had a lot of help. But if you plan well, I mean really think it though, you can solve just about any problem. My layout is no longer a 4 x 8, I added a foot of staging. But it is point to point and continuous running.

One side of the point-to-point: Rock Ridge

The other side of the point-to-point: Train City

 

[Don Gibson]

WHY A 4X8?? - Seriously.

Lack of Room? Go N scale. 4X8's Takes up a lot of room. (Like 10X12).Less is more.

Lack of money? - buy one new good engine, 4 cars, and good track. Learn and EARN.

Lack of Imagination? - REAL Railroads deliver to customers.  Packing houses to Warehouses, They deliver, so can you. Think  Industries.

Lack of Talent? Buy a Book/Magazine. We were all there, once - (maybe still?)

MODEL RAIROADING - is not watching trains going in circles at Christmas. (Playing with trains, is).

[jecorbett]

Tom,Let me show you some fine examples of 4x6 and 4x8 layouts that goes far beyond the normal design of a 4x6 or 4x8 layout.Recalling that design is 90% of ANY size layouts and sadly  many modelers doesn't know how to design a layout by using newer LDEs and base their layout designs on outdated LDEs found in  books..

Designing a 4x6m,4x8 layout one needs to think outside of the normal 4x6,4x8 layout design box by using LDEs based on REALISTIC GOALS foregoing the age old tunnel on one end design  or the age old up and over which results in unrealistic grades.

Once modelers learn to over come the old 4x6,4x8 design ways and grasp the new LDE way of layout design more will understand the 4x6 and 4x8 better.

Some fine examples.

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/project.htm

 

 

These are some fine examples of what can be done in a 4x8 space. Rather than use the two sided backdrop down the middle as I have advocated, a string of tall structures are used to act as a view block in several of the examples. It accomplishes the same purpose. George Selios used the same technique to divide South Manchester on the first section of his famed F&SM layout. Although this section is larger than a 4x8, it has the same kind of end-of-the-table loop and the strutures disquise the fact that the main line is doing a U-turn. These layouts demonstrate how a little creativity can create an outstanding layout in a small space.

[Anonymous]

I personally switched from HO to N scale several years ago.  I would encourage any beginner to investigate both scales plusses and minuses before starting.  One of the first things to do is get layout plan books.  Most of these are very cheap.  Atlas has two that I'm very fond of; HO Layouts for every space and HO Kingsize Plan Book.  The latter has the aforementioned Plywood Summit Lines, which is a very good intermediate layout, but also included is the first one in the book, called the Waterlevel Western, which requires no plywood cutting.  I built the Plywood Summit Lines in the mid-eighties.  On the yard end of it I altered it to include an addon section called the Back Alley and Wharf from the Jerome and Southwestern layout, which was in Model Railroader at the time.  Model Railroaders Carbondale Central offers an alternative approach to the 4' X 8', allowing it to be placed in a corner.  This layout can now be found in 6 HO Railroads You Can Model.

[BRAKIE]

Tom,Let me show you some fine examples of 4x6 and 4x8 layouts that goes far beyond the normal design of a 4x6 or 4x8 layout.Recalling that design is 90% of ANY size layouts and sadly  many modelers doesn't know how to design a layout by using newer LDEs and base their layout designs on outdated LDEs found in  books..

Designing a 4x6m,4x8 layout one needs to think outside of the normal 4x6,4x8 layout design box by using LDEs based on REALISTIC GOALS foregoing the age old tunnel on one end design  or the age old up and over which results in unrealistic grades.

Once modelers learn to over come the old 4x6,4x8 design ways and grasp the new LDE way of layout design more will understand the 4x6 and 4x8 better.

Some fine examples.

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/project.htm

 

 

[Anonymous]

This layout would work for me minis the third inter curve..In fact IF I had the space I would build this layout.

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg

 

Guys,Do recall switching layouts isn't everybody's cup of tea..I will be the first to admit switching layouts can become boring even when properly design..I speak from years of experience since 98% of my layouts has been switching layouts.

A 4 X 8 is plenty big for a complex switching layout OR a generous continuous running layout.  But can it do both? 

When you are designing a 4 X 8 layout...this does "assume" that the creators have limited space and perhaps capital to build the railway.  With that in mind...you can accomplish some switching, continuous running AND have enough room for big engines and  trains if properly designed.

Create a large oval the length of the benchwork (8 ft) and insert a diagonal reverse section inside it. You can raise part of the roadbed (perhaps the rear side when facing the front) but keep the grade very mild.   

Then, on one end of the 8 ft. oval, put a curved inner "siding" connected between turnout tracks.  This allows the trains to turn all the way around (from the reverse diagonal) and then to go back the other way, you can park the train on the curved siding and run the engine back around to couple the rear of the train and drive in the other direction. 

To hide the "round about" nature of this design, scenery comes in to play, you can cover the siding and the outer curve with a large mountain/tunnel.  The other curve can be covered the same way, or you build a town or an industry in front of it.

There will be enough area off the diagonal and oval for spur tracks.  Spur tracks can lead to industrys (preferably a pickup emptys/ drop off industry).  Clever placement of magnetic uncouplers will allow cars to be shunted.

Then, just when you think the track plan is "final"...at one end of the large oval, remember to put a turnout track instead of a regular curve track.  The straight track of the turnout piece goes right off the edge of the layout....where to?  Well, in the future , if you get to expand your empire, this piece can bridge another benchwork section.  And with another section, you could create another reverse loop, therefore making the the turn-around train operation completely automatic.

Also, there is PLENTY of left over space for structures and detailing.  If you really want to get a realistic railway atmosphere a 4 X 8 space to cover with ground foams, lichen and various details will provide you weeks or months  of creative building ideas.

Note: The curves should be close to 22" or 44" diameter. This allows large locomotives to run and hopefully (what I intend to buy) the new highly detailed Rapido passenger cars (which say will run on 18" radius!).  Obviously, some brands of passenger cars won't run on 22", but a 4 X 8 does mean some compromises.

Regards,

Tom M.

 

 

[jecorbett]

This argument comes up many times and yes you can do an around the room layout in the same space as a 4x8 requires but that doesn't mean that is the best solution for everyone. An around the room layout needs an entrance which means either a duck under or a liftout. If the door swings in, as it most likely would if this is in a spare bedroom, this adds some more engineering problems to deal with. There is absolutely nothing wrong with going with a 4x8 layout. My first layout was a 4x8 and we had lots of fun with it. A well designed 4x8 can create lots of operating possibilites.

If I were to do a 4x8, I would put a scenic divider down the middle, creating two distinct scenes that are hidden from each other, making it less obvious the trains are going around in a loop. In effect, you are creating two 2x8 shelves back to back. Each scene could be distinctly different from the other without having to blend them together. With a passing siding on each side of the backdrop, each scene could act as a staging area for the other. The corners are natural places for industry spurs. With a little creativity, even a little 4x8 can be an outstanding layout.

[BRAKIE]

There is high cost as far as the lumber needed for around the wall layout..My12"x 10 foot  board cost me $14.99..Thats "finished" shelfing board in comparison a 4x8 finish on one side was $21.99.

So have the lumber yard rip the plywood into four 11 7/8" wide X 8 foot long boards for 75 cents a cut. (why 11 7/8" -- allow for the saw kerf)

Sorry, the argument that a shelf layout costs more than a 4X8 does not hold water. Unless you count the $2.25 for the three saw cuts.

First the board I bought was one section of a planned round the wall layout..I couldn't use a 4X8 foot and then have it ripped into sections because that would give me four 8 foot boards-no good since I needed 10 footers.

Sorry,your argument is weak to say the least because a 8 foot board MAY NOT work in all cases like you wrongly assumed.

[Anonymous]

Here's my track plan for my 4 X 8 table.



Works for me.

Happy MRRing 

[Jetrock]

Okay, admittedly, you get a lot more mainline run per square foot of track, but one is not obliged to fill every bit of mainline with special trackwork. All 12 feet more of mainline means, at a minimum, is four pieces of flex track, about $12-15, and having more mainline rather than less seems like a fair tradeoff.

A lift-out shelf doesn't need to be anything more complex than a narrow board with track mounted on the top that can be lifted out of the way, with something simple to attach it (some wooden pegs, or 1/4" phono plugs, etc) to the layout but only weighs a couple of pounds.

Shelf brackets? Perish the thought! Either build legs for it (which you'd have to do for a 4x8, and need something sturdier than 1x2 lumber to do it) or support it by putting a small bookshelf, or something else of layout-height altitude, in each corner of the room. Half-inch plywood with a 1x2 stiffener shouldn't need more support than something to prop it up at each end.

 

My shelves are 5/8" MDF (I know, MDF isn't the best thing for making layouts, but it works okay) on top of 1x2 lath lumber. Lightweight, easy to build (in most cases just a 'box' of 1x2 screwed to the MDF with drywall screws) and cheap as possible.

 

My experience with the subject is my first try at layout-building, a 3x6 layout that I built because I didn't have room for a 4x8. It was a huge blob that was hard to work on, hard to reach across (the six-foot side was up against the wall, meaning a three-foot reach) and took up a ton of space in the room. I gave up on it and hacked it into one-foot strips by C-clamping a 2x4 to it and running my El Cheapo circular saw down the board twice. I realize that sometimes a 4x8 is the way to go, and building an around-the-room shelf layout does require thinking a bit outside of the 4x8 box, but most of the arguments against an around-the-room layout (higher cost, shelf brackets, etc.) DO NOT HOLD WATER and I refuse to accept them. If you want to promote 4x8 layouts because you really, really think 4x8 is a great size and format for layouts, that's fine, it is no more irrational than my perspective that I don't need any curves wider than 15" on my HO scale layout. But it's a PERSONAL PREFERENCE, not something driven by economic or space factors.

[alco_fan]

There is high cost as far as the lumber needed for around the wall layout..My12"x 10 foot  board cost me $14.99..Thats "finished" shelfing board in comparison a 4x8 finish on one side was $21.99.

So have the lumber yard rip the plywood into four 11 7/8" wide X 8 foot long boards for 75 cents a cut. (why 11 7/8" -- allow for the saw kerf)

Sorry, the argument that a shelf layout costs more than a 4X8 does not hold water. Unless you count the $2.25 for the three saw cuts.

[ondrek]

I would continue the one i have started already.

I have it up against a chiminy in the basement, so its not one you can walk all the way around, but I kept all the turnouts reachable from 2 sides, and you can reach them from the front if need be.

I kept it simple.  It was designed for my son, But the problem I am finding out is that he is more developed than i thought, he drives the train to the other side of the layout and then stops it.  he says "the train is far away"  when he's ready, he drives it the rest of the way around and stops it at the station.  he likes the idea of a train actually going somewhere and not returning for a long time.  If i had known that he was going to be that way, I would have built the shelf layout i designed that is not continuoius running, but has two turn tables along with two stations at each end to turn the trains around on and head back to where they came from. 

oh well.

http://www.vermontel.net/%7Ekevin_ondre/HO%20Train/CMVTRR7_4x8.jpg

I have been working on this layout for about a year now on and off.  its not finished, but the track is down and grass is "growing" in areas.

Kevin

[IRONROOSTER]

What higher cost? 32 square feet of layout vs. 32 square feet of layout. ...

Well to start with, a single oval of track with 30" radius curves is about 31 feet around the 8x10 room.  A single oval on the 4x8 with 22" curves is 19 feet.  So you have the extra cost of 12 feet of track, 12 feet of roadbed, 12 feet of ballast. Double if you double track.

Then you have to do something at the door, rehang it to open out with a duckunder (if the shelf is high enough) or some kind of gate/liftout (if the shelf is lower or rehanging the door is not an option) that will require more than just some shelf brackets. 

Of course if you live some place where you're not allowed to put holes in the wall then you have to more have legs, stringers, etc.

A couple of things I am not sure about are the relative costs of shelf brackets vs the support lumber of a 4x8.  Also, I would think the shelf would have to be a thicker plywood than the table top.

Please note, I am not trying to argue that a 4x8 is better than an around the wall layout for everyone.  As with so much in model railroading, there are tradeoffs, for some a 4x8 is better, for others it's an around the wall, for still others it may be a combination.  Cost is but one factor.  It won't matter much for some, be over-riding for others,  and many are somewhere in the middle.

Enjoy
Paul

[Jetrock]

If you want to go that route (buying the more expensive 12" wide board) then that's a choice made by the individual. I didn't do that--I got a 4x8 sheet and had it cut into 1' wide shelves (well, technically, into one 2x4 piece and three 1x6 pieces, but that's because I wasn't working with an 8x10 room.) I used 1x2 lath for framing under the 1 foot wide boards--more than adequate, and extremely cheap.

 

I'd agree that a 4x8 footer beats no layout--but I didn't have room for a 4x8 foot layout! I was working in a garage 8 feet wide, which already had shelves and workbenches around most of its perimeter. I didn't want to get rid of the workbenches or shelf storage, so I built my shelf layout above the existing storage instead. So, in my case, a shelf layout beat a 4x8 simply because there was no room for a 4x8, but more than enough room for a shelf.

[BRAKIE]

There is high cost as far as the lumber needed for around the wall layout..My12"x 10 foot  board cost me $14.99..Thats "finished" shelfing board in comparison a 4x8 finish on one side was $21.99.

 

Now,I prefer around the wall layouts over the 4x8 footer IF possible.I also advocate a 4x8 footer beats no layout.

Now,I have seen HO layouts on a 36" x 80" HC door..Not bad considering the type of locomotives and cars used on 15" curves..

[Jetrock]

Put wheels on the legs and you can get it in a 6x10 room.

Among the drawbacks of around the room layouts is the higher cost.

Personally, I started with a 4x8 of which I still have many fond memories.

Enjoy
Paul

What higher cost? 32 square feet of layout vs. 32 square feet of layout. And a shelf layout would work fine in a 6x10 room too--with 30-33 inch curves, plus you'd avoid the inevitable earthquakes that would occur from swinging several hundred pounds of rolling layout two feet, deliberately or inadvertently!

[IRONROOSTER]

I found there are drawbacks to a around the wall layout IF you have industries you plan to switch..One almost has to have walk around throttles or walk back and forth to the stationary throttle.Of course that drawback never gets mention..To be fair the same applies to a 4x8 foot layout as well.

Now as far as a 4x8 one end can be sit against the wall..You see there is NO rule saying you must be able to walk around all 4 sides of a 4x8.

Which is why I based my example on an 8x10 room: 2 feet of access on three sides of the layout, with the fourth up against a wall. 2 feet of access on all four sides would require an 8x12 room.

 

About tethered throttles: The best place for a walkaround throttle on a 4x8 in that 8x10 room would be in the middle of the 4-foot side of the layout, with 8 feet of tether. That would allow you to get the throttle within 2 feet of any point on either side of the layout. With a shelf layout plan, an eight-foot tether in the middle of one of the 10-foot walls would allow you to reach any point on the layout.

Put wheels on the legs and you can get it in a 6x10 room.

Among the drawbacks of around the room layouts is the higher cost.

Personally, I started with a 4x8 of which I still have many fond memories.

Enjoy
Paul

[fwright]

Tracklayer

The best buildable and usable 4x8 plans I have seen over the years are:

• Atlas Plywood Summit Lines - figure 8 with small yard and a branch ending in a wye, a step in complexity above the normal beginner 4x8
• Jerome and Southwestern - Model Railroader Project layout
• Turtle Creek - Model Railroader Project layout
• Harold Minkwitz's Pacific Coast Air Line Railway, see http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/

All have reasonable operating potential; all have been physically built (mostly Atlas track) so the plan is workable (there are a lot of unbuildable 4x8 plans out there); and all are easily extended with a shelf for additional operations.

None of them are well suited to modern prototypes - trains will be short, and cars, locomotives should be limited to 50ft for operating reliability and appearance.

my thoughts, your choices

 

[Jetrock]

I found there are drawbacks to a around the wall layout IF you have industries you plan to switch..One almost has to have walk around throttles or walk back and forth to the stationary throttle.Of course that drawback never gets mention..To be fair the same applies to a 4x8 foot layout as well.

Now as far as a 4x8 one end can be sit against the wall..You see there is NO rule saying you must be able to walk around all 4 sides of a 4x8.

Which is why I based my example on an 8x10 room: 2 feet of access on three sides of the layout, with the fourth up against a wall. 2 feet of access on all four sides would require an 8x12 room.

 

About tethered throttles: The best place for a walkaround throttle on a 4x8 in that 8x10 room would be in the middle of the 4-foot side of the layout, with 8 feet of tether. That would allow you to get the throttle within 2 feet of any point on either side of the layout. With a shelf layout plan, an eight-foot tether in the middle of one of the 10-foot walls would allow you to reach any point on the layout.

[BRAKIE]

My question is this: What is the size of the room? I have heard "I don't have room for anything but a 4x8" time and time again, but am not sure what size of room makes it physically impossible to cut a 4x8 board into smaller pieces.

 

The other constantly-amusing thing is that when I mention things like the around-the-room layout I described in detail above, people claim that they don't have the space or the resources and want a loop, when the plan I have just detailed takes up exactly the same number of square feet as a 4x8, can be built in the same size room, doesn't require any special skills beyond what you'd need to build a 4x8, and STILL HAS A LOOP. If you don't like switching at all, you can buy a dozen pieces of flex track and just have a loop that runs around the room--essentially, this is a dropped-down version of the "train around the edge of the ceiling" layout, with the option of adding operation if you want it. The only thing I can chalk it up to is an irrational fear of shelves.

I have built 3 around the wall layout that was no more then 12" wide except for the curve area which was big enough for 22" curve..

I found there are drawbacks to a around the wall layout IF you have industries you plan to switch..One almost has to have walk around throttles or walk back and forth to the stationary throttle.Of course that drawback never gets mention..To be fair the same applies to a 4x8 foot layout as well.

Now as far as a 4x8 one end can be sit against the wall..You see there is NO rule saying you must be able to walk around all 4 sides of a 4x8.

[Jetrock]

If you only have room for a 4x8 layout, it's safe to assume that you have an 8x10 room to work with, assuming two feet of clearance on three sides of the layout (8x12 if you assume clearance on all four sides.) This means that you can cut that 4x8 sheet of plywood into four 1x8 foot shelves, and put shelves all the way around that 8x10 room.

 

That's not always so... You're assuming the space is "dedicated railroad space", which in my case isn't so...  i have a 4x8 and the walkways around the layout are also used for other purposes.  i have about 75-80 feet of track.  the layout includes a 2 track yard with an engine servicing area, an interchange track, and 4 sidings (including one switchback).  the only problem i face, tho, is finding structures small enough to fit the layout. 

No, I'm not. You can make the layout a series of removable modules, which are a LOT easier to get out of a room than a solid 4x8 sheet (I just moved my current layout: all I had to do was take the structures off, detatch a couple of C-clamps, and put the modules in the back of my station wagon.) Set them on top of cheap bookcases to hold them up, and the space underneath the layout is not lost, and the center of the room is totally free for other uses. Remember, in an 8x10 room (80 sf) with 1-foot shelves around the perimeter you still have a 6x8 foot space (48 sf) which is the exact same amount of square feet that is open in an 8x10 room containing a 4x8 layout, except that the free space is all in the middle of the room instead of around the perimeter. Attach bacdrop sections to the back of the module instead of the wall, and even things like windows and closet doors are coverable when the layout is in place--but freely accessible by lifting the module outof the way. It also means you can put building flats on the backdrop, allowing you to model nice big buildings if you want--you just exclude the other three walls, saving lots of room!

[Jetrock]

My question is this: What is the size of the room? I have heard "I don't have room for anything but a 4x8" time and time again, but am not sure what size of room makes it physically impossible to cut a 4x8 board into smaller pieces.

 

The other constantly-amusing thing is that when I mention things like the around-the-room layout I described in detail above, people claim that they don't have the space or the resources and want a loop, when the plan I have just detailed takes up exactly the same number of square feet as a 4x8, can be built in the same size room, doesn't require any special skills beyond what you'd need to build a 4x8, and STILL HAS A LOOP. If you don't like switching at all, you can buy a dozen pieces of flex track and just have a loop that runs around the room--essentially, this is a dropped-down version of the "train around the edge of the ceiling" layout, with the option of adding operation if you want it. The only thing I can chalk it up to is an irrational fear of shelves.

[Ibflattop]

I would make it a shelf switching layout. Might even make modules instead of a 4'x8' table bowl. heck with 1 K you could make a couple of modules with different track arrangements so you could just go plug and play when ya get tired of a certain trackplan.  I have had 4'x 8's in the past and they get old in a hurry if ya dont have a good trackplan.     Kevin

[soumodeler]

I would do exactly what I am doing now.

http://www.trainweb.org/mgr