Turnout woes..

[ProtoWeathering]

An extremely well done tutorial on building custom turnouts and a tutorial on cutting the frogs using the jewelers saw is in the first video listed on this web page. It can be run with Windows Media player, through Power Point or just about any other media viewing device.

Copy and paste the url below in your browser.

http://centralfloridashops.fast-tracks.net/documents.php

[selector]

jeweler's saws are available online here ... http://www.jewelrysupply.com/jewelry_making_supply_tools/saw_blades_frames.html

what many non-jewelers don't know is that you're supposed to lubricate the blade with beeswax ... http://www.jewelrysupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1447
it helps a lot with reducing broken blades

disclaimer: not only am i not an employee of jewelerysupply.com , i've never ordered from them or dealt with them in any other way

Tsk!   Now you tell me....

[ereimer]

jeweler's saws are available online here ... http://www.jewelrysupply.com/jewelry_making_supply_tools/saw_blades_frames.html

what many non-jewelers don't know is that you're supposed to lubricate the blade with beeswax ... http://www.jewelrysupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1447
it helps a lot with reducing broken blades

disclaimer: not only am i not an employee of jewelerysupply.com , i've never ordered from them or dealt with them in any other way

[jfugate]

A jeweler's saw also takes a light touch ... I don't know how many blades I've broken because I applied too much pressure while trying to saw something.

Truly a very precise instrument, but also definitely a workbench tool, not a layout room tool.

[jacon12]

JaRRel, unfortunatley, you must remove the turnouts, clamp them on their sides, and insert the saw blade between the ties, clamp the very fragile blade into the U-frame of the saw, and then commence to saw.  No other way.  Remember, I did all this under instruction from the Fast-Tracks organization for the handlaid turnouts that I was building.  The saw will do what you need of it, but you can't saw the frog rails in place.  You must remove the turnout and place it in a vice....carefully.

If you go this way, and I feel strongly that you should, when you start the sawing motion against the rails, my experience was to push the saw away from me, using my thumbnail as a guide for the blade, for about 10-15 strokes until the blade had created a sufficiently deep groove that you could commence the back-and forth action.  Thereafter, it goes quickly, although you must be careful not to let the blade fall into the next rail when it finishes the cut, or you'll have to replace the blade.

It is a bit finicky, but you get the hang of it really fast, and then it's like anything else about the hobby...yer on yer way.

Gaps?  What gaps?  I don't see no stinkin' gaps!

Ouch!... remove the turnouts!  I now wish I hadn't but I did.. solder the turnouts in place.  Would've made removing them soooo much easier.  Oh well, maybe I can try another method, like grinding down the insides of the two rails.

Thanks Crandell!

JaRRell

[selector]

JaRRel, unfortunatley, you must remove the turnouts, clamp them on their sides, and insert the saw blade between the ties, clamp the very fragile blade into the U-frame of the saw, and then commence to saw.  No other way.  Remember, I did all this under instruction from the Fast-Tracks organization for the handlaid turnouts that I was building.  The saw will do what you need of it, but you can't saw the frog rails in place.  You must remove the turnout and place it in a vice....carefully.

If you go this way, and I feel strongly that you should, when you start the sawing motion against the rails, my experience was to push the saw away from me, using my thumbnail as a guide for the blade, for about 10-15 strokes until the blade had created a sufficiently deep groove that you could commence the back-and forth action.  Thereafter, it goes quickly, although you must be careful not to let the blade fall into the next rail when it finishes the cut, or you'll have to replace the blade.

It is a bit finicky, but you get the hang of it really fast, and then it's like anything else about the hobby...yer on yer way.

Gaps?  What gaps?  I don't see no stinkin' gaps!

[jacon12]

Modelmaker, I used a very thin diamond-studded wheel, and it still created a 1.5mm gap, despite my best efforts.  I think that is too thick by about .7 mm; it looks terrible.  The jeweller's file is amazing, although very delicate.  It is what Tim Warris of Fast Tracks recommends for gapping his frogs. Just like his jigs, and spline roadbed, once you have done them, there is no going back. 

Selector, how are you able to get the jewelers file down where you need it and it be 'level', if you know what I mean, with the tracks?  I did the nail polish trick and while it fixed the problem it only lasted about 10 passes of a locomotive.  The turnouts, there are two of them, are on a passenger train double ended siding and the siding is wired so I wouldn't have to add the jumpers mentioned earlier because it's already powered.  They're large radius Pecos (I think they equal a number 6 in Atlas turnouts), and I just knew they'd be the last turnouts to give me a problem.  I think what I'm getting is called experience.. 

JaRRell

[jacon12]

Exactly, and Joe's very point.  When I realized that I could get even my little Heritage 0-6-0 across every single DCC-friendly turnout on my layout, handbuilt or otherwise, I was only too happy to apply my time elsewhere.

As I said elsewhere, if you don't like the gap resulting from your best effort with a cut-off disk, get a jeweler's saw.  You will have to look closely to see them gaps!

Where in the world would one purchase a jewelers saw.  Evidently it's a very specialized too and Home Depot probably doesn't have them... 

Thanks for the suggestion, Selector!

Jarrell

[selector]

Exactly, and Joe's very point.  When I realized that I could get even my little Heritage 0-6-0 across every single DCC-friendly turnout on my layout, handbuilt or otherwise, I was only too happy to apply my time elsewhere.

As I said elsewhere, if you don't like the gap resulting from your best effort with a cut-off disk, get a jeweler's saw.  You will have to look closely to see them gaps!

[modelmaker51]

For me, it's just more practical to use dead frog turnouts, I/we only run diesels, I have never had a problem with them stalling on turnouts, so why bother with all the extra wiring and time? (12x23 layout w/60+ turnouts). I have plenty of other things to do on the layout than to spend time doing things that offer no benefit to the operation of the layout.

[selector]

Yup, you sure did.

 

-Crandell

[modelmaker51]

 take a dremel with a cutoff disc and grind each rail head to thin it from the inside by about half .

I did say "grind each rail" in my original post.

[jfugate]

Fred:

Many approaches in the hobby come down to a series of trade-offs and I've found once you understand people's priorities, seemingly opposite methods of doing things make perfect sense for them.

[fwright]

Joe

Appreciate your answers.  I like to make reasoned choices.  I would agree that for any size layout running diesels or large steam with plenty of power pickups that dead frogs make operation, installation, and maintenance simpler - and those issues have higher relative importance for larger layouts.  My point was that the issue of shorts at the frog rail gaps of live frogs vs derailing at the points is somewhat of a red herring - neither is desirable!  Yet I hear this reason cited as why one should not use live frogs all the time.  I'm now satisfied that we both have good reasons for making the choices we are making.  Thanks again for taking the time to educate me.

Fred W

[jfugate]

Fred:

Generally speaking, anything that causes a short on a DCC layout is a bad thing, and live frog turnouts, to be reliable, need more moving parts than a dead frog turnout.

I started out using live frog turnouts on my layout but it just became easier to use dead frog turnouts because I didn't have to mess around adding contacts and running wires to the frog. Plus the constant shorts from people running live frog turnouts the wrong way were annoying when you are trying to run a smooth prototypical operating session.

This all becomes part of the whole notion of "eliminate model railroading thoughts" during a prototypically based op session. The prototype doesn't get a short and suddenly stop if they approach a turnout with it thrown against them. Every time you get a short, you're reminded this is a model you're running and the illusion is broken. The illusion is maintained with dead frog turnouts.

I was curious about how I evolved from live frog to dead frog turnouts so I happened to ask Gary Siegel, owner of a large and beautifully scenicked L&N layout (covered in MR circa 1996) at the 2004 convention in Seattle what he did. He told me he started out using live frog turnouts but found dead frog turnouts worked just about as well and they were less work to install. He prefers dead frog turnouts today.

Ahah! So there was a bit of evidence to show what I suspected -- on a large diesel era DCC layout, going with dead frog turnouts will work well and they're easier to install and maintain. Gary's experience matched my own.

But like many things in the hobby, it comes down to personal preference, and what you model. If I was modeling totally in the steam era or had a logging line with lots of short wheelbase geared locos, I'd probably go with live frogs for loco reliability and to eliminate any chance of stalls at a turnout. But if you're on the fence and want to know what's easier to install and maintain, it's dead frog turnouts.

[fwright]

Gear:

The big downside of an electrofrog turnout (or any live frog turnout) is you will get a short if you approach from the frog end when the points are thrown the wrong way.

With an insulfrog turnout (once it's properly insulated as we've shown), you can run through one from the frog end with the points thrown the wrong way and you just go on the ground like on the prototype. Notice, no shorts!

Make sense?

Joe

I'm sorry to disagree with you.  I don't see a train derailing on a turnout thrown against it as more advantageous than a train stopping (without derailing!) due to a short as it spans the gap near the frog of a turnout thrown against it.  Throwing the turnout to the correct position and having the current limiter or circuit breaker auto-reset is much easier on both me and the equipment than rerailing the rolling stock and throwing the turnout to the correct position while I'm doing the rerailing.

And if one is using your system of subdistricts with current limiters - the shutdown due to the short becomes more limited.  I would certainly want other trains operating in the vicinity of or using the same turnout shut down while I was rerailing anyway, so having the current limiter or circuit breaker do it for me is another advantage.

Add in the additional "live" rail surface for power pickup (regardless of wheelbase or pickup system) - I can't see the downside for correctly wired live frogs.  That last phrase is really the only benefit I know of to dead frogs - easier wiring and no frog polarity contacts required.  But I'm willing to be corrected if I'm missing something in my analysis.

yours in preferring to keep my frogs alive :-)

Fred Wright

[GearDrivenSteam]

Make sense?

Sorta, I guess. I am running DCC, and I will be running short 4 wheel critters. My longest locos will be Shays and Climaxes. I've read extensively on Alan Gartner's web site and from the looks of it, all I need to do will be to insulate the frog rails......that and not approach the turnout the wrong way. LOL. I'll just have to be careful, I guess.

[jacon12]

I certainly appreciate the advice from Jay, Joe and Selector in this thread, and I hope that there will be a lot of other people reading this,  I know there must be more than 'just a few' people to have had this problem.  Jay, thanks for the additional information on the plumbers putty also.

NOW!  All I gotta do is get up the nerve to do a little grindin'.  Oh,  I will practice on an old Atlas turnout, it's the only thing I have.  I have a Dremmel so I gotta figure out what attachment I have that'll get down between those rails and NOT grind in places I don't want to grind.  1/16th inch deep... whew!.. are my nerves that steady.. 

JaRRell

[selector]

I think you want to split the difference and grind both rails equally, ja.

Oops, I missed that.  Yes, I should have realized that JaRRel might have thought that only the one rail needed the adjustment.  Since the wheels are bridging both anyway, then you want the high ridge that the rails ride on, regardless of their path through the turnouts, to be separated by the gouge you are creating. so, for symmetry, and to create the wide gap you need, grind both rails a bit.

Good catch, Joe.

[modelmaker51]

Thanks for pitching in guys, Selector and Joe both have it right.  However I would suggest using some JB Kwick (by JB Weld - Ace hardware carries both) or some plumber's Epoxy putty to fill in the "gouge/divot" and then the razor blade to trim and shape. It's less messy, and you don't risk getting super glue in places you don't want it and a side benefit is that the epoxy is gray and doesn't need touching up to hide it. (I also use the plumbers epoxy putty to fill isolation gaps, it gets hard as a rock and again it's gray so no touch up needed).

You could "practice " on an old brass Atlas switch to get the "feel" of it. Only grind for 2-3 seconds at a time on low to medium speed so the rails don't heat up too much and deform the plastic point of the frog. An Optivisor helps a lot to see what you're doing. Actually, the optivisor has been one of the best tool investments ever, it did so much to improve my accuracy and neatness.

[jfugate]

Well what about with the electro frog? Would the insulated joiners on the frog rails eliminate the need for any cutting? Thanks.

Gear:

An electrofrog turnout is a live frog turnout (not dead frog like an insulfrog turnout) and its electrical characteristics are completely different. As long as you use insulated rail joiners at the next rail joint on rails 1 & 2, you will be fine.

With an electrofrog turnout, the closure rails, frog, and two inside rails past the frog are all a single polarity based on the position of the points. An electrofrog turnout has contacts under the points that throw the polarity of the entire "frog assembly" the proper way to match the route the turnout is aligned for.

The big downside of an electrofrog turnout (or any live frog turnout) is you will get a short if you approach from the frog end when the points are thrown the wrong way.

With an insulfrog turnout (once it's properly insulated as we've shown), you can run through one from the frog end with the points thrown the wrong way and you just go on the ground like on the prototype. Notice, no shorts!

On a DCC layout, I recommend dead frog turnouts unless you have lots of older steam locos with less-than-wonderful power pickup or you have really short wheelbase locos that don't like deadspots in the track. An insulfrog turnout (or any dead frog turnout) has the track where the rails cross as a dead section with no power. Most all-wheel pickup modern locos roll right over a dead frog turnout without any problem.

Make sense?

[jfugate]

Joe, are you cutting with a Dremel or a Razor Saw?

I have no peco but your diagram helped on a Walthers 3 way.

Another new trick for this old dog!!

clay:

When I cut across the rails just past the frog as I originally showed, I'm using a motor tool with a heavy duty (double-thickness) disk. It makes a wide gap (almost 1/16" -- or just over 1mm) but I glue black or grey styrene into the gap with superglue, then trim it to shape with a fresh sharp single-edged razor blade.

The gap all but disappears when you do that. Don't use white styrene or the gap sticks out like a sore thumb.

[GearDrivenSteam]

Well what about with the electro frog? Would the insulated joiners on the frog rails eliminate the need for any cutting? Thanks.

[claycts]

Joe, are you cutting with a Dremel or a Razor Saw?

I have no peco but your diagram helped on a Walthers 3 way.

Another new trick for this old dog!!

[jfugate]

I think you want to split the difference and grind both rails equally, ja. If you grind it as you show, you'll fix the problem for trains going through the 2 <---> 4 route, but trains going the other route will still short. Just imagine the wheels going down each route and ask yourself if there's metal the wheels could possibly contact -- and you need to grind that metal back on *both* routes, as shown in red below:


(click image to enlarge)

You want to widen the gap between the two metal rails 1 and 2 where they come together at their closest point, and you only need to grind down part way, then fill the gap with some styrene you superglue in place. Trim the styrene with a sharp single-edged razor blade or xacto blade once the superglue sets up.

Darn clever. Wished I had thought of it -- it would have saved me a lot of work. Modelmaker's approach is a far easier solution to the "metal rails too close at the frog" problem on Peco turnouts.

[selector]

That's it, JaRRel.   You can appeciate that this will take some thinking, a steady hand, and some decent equipment, but you have it exactly right.  Do a narrow gouge first and verify for about four trails.  If you get no shorts, that is likely to be the 90% solution.  If you still get the very odd one, you can always widen the gouge perimeter by another 10 thousandths..ish.  How you'd get that fine a grind is beyond me.

-Crandell

[jacon12]

My solution is more permanent, take a dremel with a cutoff disc and grind each rail head to thin it from the inside by about half its thickness for a distance of about 3/8". Fill the groove created with epoxy and even it with the railhead when hardened. Be careful, you're only grinding enough away so that the wheel treads don't touch both rails as they pass through the frog. You don't need to go any deeper than about 1/16th of an inch.

My method is much simpler. You don't have any gaps to fill or jumpers to solder. No flying pieces of rail either. You basically just grind out a little 3/8th in. long divot (about 1/16" deep) between the rails. Just check to see when the wheel tread no longer touches the other rail.

Selctor: What are you using for a cut-off disc? Is it one those big fibreglass re-enforced discs? They are indeed way to big. I'm talking about the quarter-sized 1.5mm thick cut-off discs and I think Joe is as well, they only make a about a 2mm gap.

Jay, thanks for the suggestions.  If I understand you, you're saying to grind out an area that is in red in rail #1 in the below picture?  Do you do anything to rails 2,3, and 4? 

Selector and Joe, I really appeciate your suggestions!

JaRRell

[selector]

Modelmaker, I used a very thin diamond-studded wheel, and it still created a 1.5mm gap, despite my best efforts.  I think that is too thick by about .7 mm; it looks terrible.  The jeweller's file is amazing, although very delicate.  It is what Tim Warris of Fast Tracks recommends for gapping his frogs. Just like his jigs, and spline roadbed, once you have done them, there is no going back. 

[jfugate]

Modelmaker:

You're right, your solution is much simpler. Where were you when I was altering all those Peco turnouts?

This old dog just learned a new trick!