FORUM CLINIC: Operating like the prototype

[johncolley]

Joe, does a resounding "YES!" count? I am a somewhat rabid, but not obsessive, fan of operations. One hint, it is nice of you to put the warning on your clips, but they have to be downloaded and start in order to read them! A long wait for us dial-up users, yes, but for me at least, worth the wait! jc5729 John Colley, Port Townsend, WA

[jfugate]

Hasn't been much posted to this clinic lately ... but at my last op session, on a whim, we ran the professional video camera just to see how live handheld available light video footage would look.

Well what do you know! It surprised us at how well the video turned out. Here's some of it posted on my web site. Kind of "reality video" for model railroading!

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Okay, well it's not the next installment in this forum clinic, per se, but I have just finished my October Op Session Report (with photos), and it shows a real live op session applying the principles discussed in this forum clinic.

Here's the link:
http://siskiyou-railfan.net/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?2801

I try to give enough detail that you get some sense of what it's like to run trains using 1980's style track warrants and wireless DCC on a larger basement layout.

 

Excellent !  Finally took the time from RR construction to catch up on some forum reading.

Regards,

[jfugate]

Joe... Does the Laquer Thinner ever cause a problem with weathered track sections? I have been looking at the CMX for a while now, and your post makes it sound like what I am looking for. Thanks for sharing that information and for another great clinic. Bob

The laquer thinner is merely damp on the "fuzzy" wiper pad, and I've never seen it cause a problem with the weathered track. You can control the drip rate, so you only want the drip to be enough to keep the pad damp, not soaked such that it starts to get all over the track.

The other thing to watch out for is when you stop (as in "done") make sure you shut the flow off, or you will soak your track with laquer thinner.

Otherwise, it works great!

[MudHen_462]

Joe... Does the Laquer Thinner ever cause a problem with weathered track sections?

I have been looking at the CMX for a while now, and your post makes it sound like what I am looking for. Thanks for sharing that information and for another great clinic.

Bob

[jfugate]

Ralph:

I use the CMX clean machine for track cleaning, and I put Laquer Thinner in it.

The main gets the most traffic so the main gets the most cleaning (once a month). I also clean all the side tracks and spurs about every 6 months.

I've also tried doing some of the metal polish cleaning, but the jury's still out on that. I think you already have to have relatively clean track and wheels already for that to work well. I did a section of the layout with the metal polish (a very slow and tediuous job -- I used the scrap of cork method) and after a month of use, the metal polished section seemed about as filthy as ever.

I still need to experiment with the metal polish method some more, but it takes a lot of elbow grease to do. The one section I did (about 12 feet long -- did the main, the siding and all the spurs) took several hours work and lots of pieces of cork ... I could have cleaned most of the layout with the clean machine in that length of time (I've got 1200 feet of track on the layout -- I shudder to think how many years the metal polish method would take...). The cork pieces with the metal polish on them would get filthy fast and have to be replaced every few inches, as would the dry pieces of cork I used to burnish the polished rails with.

My layouts going on 15 years old -- perhaps all the years of built-up gunk on wheels just doesn't work as well with the polish method since even the polished track seems to get dirty again rather soon. I've never cleaned my rolling stock's wheels ever and I use mostly metal wheelsets. I clean my loco's wheelsets often -- every op session or two. Although in the last year I took apart some loco trucks for a thorough cleaning and found crystalized black gunk up inside the truck sideframes ... so that stuff gets everywhere!

Long story short ... the clean machine and cleaning loco wheels often seems to work best for me at the moment.

[espee3004]

Joe

 

Great clinic on operation. Really learning a lot. Would you consider discussing track cleaning. Some may say this is not operation. The trains don't run long without it. Do you just clean the main line or do all tracks get cleaned?

You mentioned using the clean machine. What cleaning solvent do you use?

 

Ralph Hougesen 

 

 

[MudHen_462]

Thanks, Larry.... that was all excellent information, and Joe....  thank you for another great clinic.

Bob

 

[BRAKIE]

The caboose would be removed as soon as possible so the caboose can be cleaned and service before being assigned to its next run and the inbound cars reclassified into trains.You see the inbound conductor and rear brakeman had already swung off the train near the crew pickup point or in some cases near the yard office but,usually we would swing off and then be taken to the yard office turn in the reports and waybills sign out and head for the RR YMCA.The headend crew would run the engine to the locomotive inbound service tracks..Then the headend crew would turn in the engineer's locomotive reports and sign out and then head to the RR YMCA..

Now if this train was a run through there would be nothing more then a crew change..Now on the PRR the cabin would be removed and replace with a region cabin. Like a say a Eastern(Panhandle) region would be removed and a Buckeye region cabin would be added.This ended in 1968.The crew would simply turn in the engine report and other paper work and sign out and be taken to the YMCA or local contract hotel.

[MudHen_462]

Joe,First great topic!.Ok from a former railroad man..First the YM has NO say over the inbound/outbound tracks thats was a local towermans job now controlled by a DS.As far as reverse moves no permission is need to make those moves after all a yard crew will make several dozens in performing their work..Permission is not needed to remove a classified train by the trim crew since the humpmaster gave the instructions to remove the cars.These cars are taken to the outbound tracks where a caboose would be added in days past or Fred is added today by carmen who also inspects the train and connects the air hoses.This can be simulated by have a delay between train make up and the adding of the road power.Recall this train would be under blue flag protection and therefore couldn't be coupled on to until the blue flag is removed..

 

When a train pulls into the inbound tracks, at what point would the caboose be removed?

Thanks, Bob

[BRAKIE]

Joe,First great topic!.Ok from a former railroad man..First the YM has NO say over the inbound/outbound tracks thats was a local towermans job now controlled by a DS.As far as reverse moves no permission is need to make those moves after all a yard crew will make several dozens in performing their work..Permission is not needed to remove a classified train by the trim crew since the humpmaster gave the instructions to remove the cars.These cars are taken to the outbound tracks where a caboose would be added in days past or Fred is added today by carmen who also inspects the train and connects the air hoses.This can be simulated by have a delay between train make up and the adding of the road power.Recall this train would be under blue flag protection and therefore couldn't be coupled on to until the blue flag is removed..

[jfugate]

Jim:

Some great points! The prototype yard also has a lead of sorts on the same end, and it swings the same direction mine does, so I guess they put up with it.

By the way, I finally got the yard limits signs installed as my operating crews requested. It's a small detail, but a kinda cool one. We used them in the latest op session. Here's a photo of the east yard limits at Roseburg Yard on my layout (you can see it just to the right of the fuel tank on the loco, at about walkway level):


(Click to enlarge)

Always more fun little details to add ...

[jrbernier]

Joe,

  I read the LD-SIG web page on curves in yard and mine are in spec(sometimes I plan right).  One thing I noticed about your yard lead is that it swings to the left when working the lead.  Do you have the switch engine facing 'away' from the train so that the engineer's side window is on the inside of the curve?  On the prototype, the crews will try to get the engine turned so they can 'see' better on a curve.  I am not getting on your case here(My yard lead also curves to the left).  One night I was operating the lead and a friend mentioned it(professional railroader).

  Looking at your yard, is there much of a lead on the left end?  I have a 3 car lead on that end so an engine and a car can be pulled of of a yard track from that end without fouling the main.  Even though yard limits extend out past the bridge, knocking down signals just before scheduled trains arrive can cause problems.  Since you model the 70's, I suppose the days of scheduled trains may be over.

  I will be looking forward to the car forwarding topic....

Jim Bernier

[jfugate]

Just in case you missed this the first time ... there's a NEW CLINIC POST that's just been made -- see the previous message for the link.

Be sure to check it out!

[jfugate]

NEW CLINIC POST!

TOPIC THIS POST: Yard Operations

Read this forum clinic post by clicking here.

Yay, the next offical installment in this clinic series! Let's hope it's not so long until the next installment on car forwarding.

[jfugate]

Okay, well it's not the next installment in this forum clinic, per se, but I have just finished my October Op Session Report (with photos), and it shows a real live op session applying the principles discussed in this forum clinic.

Here's the link:
http://siskiyou-railfan.net/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?2801

I try to give enough detail that you get some sense of what it's like to run trains using 1980's style track warrants and wireless DCC on a larger basement layout.

[WSOR 3801]

My power chart would look a little different.

SD40/45 -- 8 cars level-7 grade
GP40/SD9 -- 7 level-6 grade
GP9 -- 6 level - 5 grade

That would be pretty prototypical.  Wheelslip control is better in the newer units.  The older units are just plain worn out.  I'm sure the models will pull more than rated.

October 06 Railway Age showed the results of a test on the Pacific Harbor Lines.  They took a 6000+ ton train behind a SD18 and the new 2-Genset 1400 hp NRE/UP engine built from a MP15.   They found that on a nice day the Genset job would pull the train over the ruling  grade (1.3%) at 3.2 mph, while the SD18 did it at 5 mph.  The newer engine had much better wheelslip control.  It also polluted much less, which is why they built it. 

[WSOR 3801]

Giving a "work between" to a following train if they are really both going in the same direction is very dependent on the railroad and their individual rules.  Some railroads frown on this type of operation (especially if its for any distance).

Also some railroads give every train regardless of where they operate a "track warrant", but in CTC they would get a "track warrant for bulletins" which is similar to a clearance in TT&TO days, it doesn't convey any authority, just lists the bulletins the train gets (bulletins being informational messages such a slow orders, gangs working and other information affectin ght eoperation of the trains.

Dave H.

We would get the Work Betweens with line 11 -- Between X and Y make all movements at restriced speed limits occupied by train.  That way, you have to not crash into the other guy.  At 10 mph, it is not that hard.  Lately, we have gotten line 2 with line 11.

On the CTC I go over, we get the TGBO, which is pretty much like a warrant for bulletins.  The TGBO lists any condition that is not in the timetable for the territory you will cover.  When going over the UP, we get the warrant for bulletins.

[n2mopac]

Perfectly understandable, Joe. As I mentioned, this time of year is crazy for me every year. I hadn't even had time to check for about 2 weeks. I appreciate all of the effort you put into hosting these clinics. I look forward to the next installment whenever it comes. By the way, I'm putting your DCC wiring tips and techniques from the DCC clinic to use now as I am wiring the main line for the new layout. Thanks again.

Ron

[jfugate]

Hey everyone. I've been gone a while and I just wondered if this clinic died. Joe, is there still more to come, or have we all moved on now? Just wondering. I've appreciated greatly this and all of the clinics Joe has led here. Let us know what's happening.

Ron

Its' not dead, no, not at all. Just been really busy working on how-to video volume 4, plus hosting an op session on my layout last weekend. Once I get the current op session report done on my web site (I prefer to post those while they're still fresh in my mind), then I'll get back to this clinic.

So just too many  irons in the fire at the moment. That should change in another week or so ... and then back to posting on this clinic. We've got another 6 or so topic posts to go to finish this one off.

Thanks for asking!

[BRAKIE]

Larry:

The other thing I notice with your club's method is it assumes all the locos in the lashup are 4 or 6 axle units, which may not be realistic. On the Siskiyou Line, all loco consists are made up before the session starts. Seems like your club's method could be a problem with premade lashups like I use ... what if you have a lashup that's an SD40, SD45, and a GP40? How many cars can that lashup pull with your club's method? That's not clear.

Bottom line is your club's method also ignores certain realities, just like mine does. We all pick our poison, as the saying goes.

Sorry,I did not see your second reply..

The unit consist that I used is a guide line for given train lenghts..However..The holster is free to mix and match as he pleases as long as the units run close in speed..However the ground rule is to keep like brands together especially the P2K units and older brass and Hobbytown units and that seems to work quite well...I have ran unit consist of RS3 and RSD4s,RS11s and RSD12s,SD40-2s and GP40-2s.RSD15s and SD40-2s.So again its up to the hostler and his whims.

[n2mopac]

Hey everyone. I've been gone a while and I just wondered if this clinic died. Joe, is there still more to come, or have we all moved on now? Just wondering. I've appreciated greatly this and all of the clinics Joe has led here. Let us know what's happening.

Ron

[Pruitt]

Another approach to pulling power is to use the "Scale Power" method John Page described in an "At The Throttle" editorial W-A-Y back in the late 1950's - "Scale Powering" the locos themselves.

Combining "Scale Powering" with Joe's approach, all SD9's and GP9's would have enough weight careved out of their frames that each loco could only pull six cars on a grade without slipping, while the second-generation stuff would have enough of their frames removed to pull only seven cars on the grade without slipping.

Brakie's club could do the same thing based on number of axles.

You'd also need to "Scale Power" the yard switchers, so that they would pull perhaps only four or five cars on level track. That way, when the second-generation lash-up brought in a 21-car freight, that single little switcher would have no chance in hades of moving even a sizeable portion of the train. It would have to break it into pieces to sort it - prototypical, no?

All you need to do to get started is to overcome your revulsion at the idea of carving out a lot of weight in your locomotives!

[jfugate]

Larry:

The other thing I notice with your club's method is it assumes all the locos in the lashup are 4 or 6 axle units, which may not be realistic. On the Siskiyou Line, all loco consists are made up before the session starts. Seems like your club's method could be a problem with premade lashups like I use ... what if you have a lashup that's an SD40, SD45, and a GP40? How many cars can that lashup pull with your club's method? That's not clear.

Bottom line is your club's method also ignores certain realities, just like mine does. We all pick our poison, as the saying goes.

[jfugate]

Larry:

Thanks for your response.

I just remember trains on the Siskiyou Line with a bunch of SD9s on the front because their tractive effort is so much less than second generation units, and my method simulates that memory nicely. Somehow, seeing a train with the same number of SD45s on the front as SD9s just doesn't do it for me.

The GP vs SD difference would not give me near the heartburn that first generation versus second generation does. So my method works for me and yours works for you. Neither method simulates reality properly if you want to get technical.

It all comes down to what matters to you in your modeling. It's all a simulation and our plastic diesels don't use real diesel and our plastic steamers don't run on real steam, and that's just the beginning of how our models aren't like the real McCoy.

If we're having fun, that's the main thing!

[BRAKIE]

Joe,Heres the method the club uses..1-12 cars rates a 4 or 6 axle unit.13-20 cars rates 2 4 axle unit.

Now the fun begins..

20-35 cars 3 4 axle units or 2 6 axle units.

36-50  cars 4 4 axle units or 3 6 axle units.

This method works quite well..The yardmaster tells the "Superintendent of motive power"(aka the hostler) the number of cars in a train and the hostler then assigns the needed locomotives simply by looking at a index card attached to the hostlers panel .

Our steepest grade is "Scary Hill" a 1.75% grade.

Simple no?

 

You can adjust for your givens and a 21 car train will need helpers.

 

 

[jfugate]

Joe,IMHO you should rethink your locomotives tractive force..A SD unit would be able to pull more then a GP unit due to the tractive efforts between a 6 axle unit and a 4 axle unit plus a GP40 will have more tracrive efort then a GP9.Also,again IMO your trains should be long enough (say 15-20 cars) so when this train is yarded the yard switcher can make 2 cuts instead of pulling the whole train..After all it took 2-3 road units pull this train across the division..

Larry:

I understand your point, but model loco tractive effort often has little to do with prototype loco tractive effort. My main goal was to have something very simple that emphasized the difference between second generation and first generation units, yet kept the trains lengths within the bounds of the layout design. By my way of thinking, something simple is way better than nothing at all. And you if you try to simulate every little nuance of the prototype, the session starts to feel more like work than play.

I really don't want a tractive effort chart that uses fractional cars, so what do you suggest?

Keep in mind that my maximum train length should be about 25 fifty-foot cars (not including motive power), and I'd like anything over about 20 cars to need helpers.

[Wyonate]

I'm on!  Lets go!

[BRAKIE]

Joe,IMHO you should rethink your locomotives tractive force..A SD unit would be able to pull more then a GP unit due to the tractive efforts between a 6 axle unit and a 4 axle unit plus a GP40 will have more tracrive efort then a GP9.Also,again IMO your trains should be long enough (say 15-20 cars) so when this train is yarded the yard switcher can make 2 cuts instead of pulling the whole train..After all it took 2-3 road units pull this train across the division..