New QSI upgrade chip - 6/30 update

[tstage]

For the sake of argument: Say I accidentally zapped the decoder with ESD (electrostatic discharge) from not being careful about grounding myself before removing the chip from the package. Could what I'm experiencing be the result of that? Or, would it effect the whole decoder - i.e. it would even fire up or be readable from the command station?

Tom

FYI: I was VERY careful to grounding myself before handling the chip.

[rexhea]

Tom, it is unlikely that static discharge zapped your decoder, particularly since you grounded yourself before handling it. Unless a lightning bolt went out of your fingers, I would bet it didn't happen and you just have a bad program.

REX

[tstage]

Rex,

Actually, you don't even have to have a "lightning bolt" come out of your fingers. Even small, undetectable zaps can harm a component.

Tom

[scubaterry]

Tom - I suppose that is possible. I did 23 yrs + in the Navy as an electronics technician, specialty Digital. Not once in all those years did I ever have an ESD damage issue. Never even heard of one occuring? Not saying it can't happen but it is unlikely. Again for arguments sake if it did take ESD damage then it could exhibit litterally any symptom from total dead to any number of odd behaviors depending on what component took the hit. I suspect with the F10 problem and your CV adj problems that you have a electronically challenged chip. Have you experienced problems with your DCC system in the past? Not being able to program etc?? I guess we will know the answer soon enough.
Terry[8D]

[rexhea]

Tom, I agree with Terry. I have worked with electronics as a Tech and I as an Eng. for 40 years and haven't experienced ESD damage. This has been true in my teaching experience and with students mishandling them. I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen with a visible spark that can have 1000's of volts, thus the comment about the lightning bolt. Many high level IC's have protection built into the input leads to prevent damage from small amounts of static and considering that the designers know that layman will be handling them, I would bet that decoders do also. It is still always a good practice to ground your arm to rid yourself of any large amounts of built-up static. This is easily done by simply grabbing a piece of metal to discharge it...you know ...like a car door does...Ouch! Oh yeah, as and added precaution, it is best not to wear nylon clothing when handling chips
REX[:)]

[tstage]

[sigh]...No replacement chip today...Maybe tomorrow...

Tom

[scubaterry]

I was expecting a package of Passenger LPB's from Walthers today. Ditto maybe tomorrow.
Terry[8D]

[tstage]

Good news, bad news, good news, bad news....

Good news
Got the replacement upgrade chip from Tony's today. I was busy with a lighting project this past evening so I didn't get to swapping the chip out till late.

When I first installed the replacement chip, a bizarre thing happened. Expecting the default address to be "3", I plugged 003 into my Power Cab locomotive address display. Nothing. "Okay, I'll try '2'." Still nothing. "How 'bout '4'?" Nope. Out of curiosity I then tried the locomotive long address of "5101" that I used on the chip that I just removed...and THAT worked! [%-)] Is the long address stored in RAM somewhere for a short period of time - even though you change the decoder chip?

Anyway, back to the story. Initially, I noticed a vast improvement in start up speed of the replacement upgrade chip over the first upgrade chip. Whereas with the first upgrade chip, speed steps 001-021 were the same speed and only started increasing once you got to speed step 022, the replacement chip started a noticeable increase in speed at speed step 005. OK, things are looking better already. [:)][tup]

Bad news
With the initial starting speeds looking good, I then decided to move onto the F10 test. Once I got the Mike up to a decent speed, I pressed F10 (SHIFT + PROG/ESC on the Power Cab). Got a toot from the whistle so I tried pressing F10 again. This time the sound quieted, "mumbled" the speed, then locked up like it did with the other first upgrade chip. [:(] The was discouraging, to say the least.

Good news
I thought to myself, "Maybe I'll try pulling the chip and reseating it again." I checked the start up speed once more - everything looked great. Tried the F10 test a second time: The sound quieted, "mumbled" the speed again, but this time I could reduce speed back down to "0" again. Cool! I ended up testing F10 a few more times just to make sure that I wasn't seeing a mirage. I don't know why that seemed to help but it did. OK, two outta three; one more test to go. [:)]

Bad news
I tried fine tuning CV2 (according to the info sheet included in with the new chip) and couldn't get it to take the inputs successfully. I read and reread the directions and tried programming CV2 a half dozens times but to no avail: I just can't seem to reset CV2. [:)] Bummer! I'm not entirely sure if the problem still isn't "operator error".

Perhaps someone can answer a question for me. In the literature that accompanies the upgrade chip, the default for CV2 is supposed to be "8". If that's the case, why is it when I check the CV input using the Program mode, CV2 setting comes up as "035" - after it has been set at "8"? That doesn't make ANY sense at all to me.

Conclusion
Well, at least 2 of 3 issues now seem to be well in hand. I'm just still baffled at the whole CV2 fine turning adjustment. But...its an improvement over how things were just a few days ago, huh?

I'll need to e-mail Tony's and NCE later today to let them know that the replacement chip seemed to rectify the matter for the most part. I'll keep you all posted if I get the fine turning figured out.

Tom

[scubaterry]

Tom - Are you saying when you change CV2 it defaults to 35 or was at 35 out of the box when default is supposed to be 8? Well in light of your report I'm thinking at least to a small degree the chip is having issues with your DCC system? The F10 thing as an example and not being able to manipulate CV2?? Do you have a club or neighbor with a diferent DCC system you can try? Did I read it write in that the low speed problem has been fixed?
Terry[8D]

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

Tom - Are you saying when you change CV2 it defaults to 35 or was at 35 out of the box when default is supposed to be 8?

Terry,

The replacement upgrade chip for my Mike was already "programmed" to my original locomotive number when I first installed it. So I pulled it out this morning and will try again to program it tonight. I'm hoping that this will start things out on a clean slate.

I didn't get the initial 3 toots when I placed the Mike on the programming track last night but the Power Cab had no problems reading the decoder. Apart from the chip, does the decoder have any RAM that stores CV information? Why wouldn't an installed chip not start up with an address of "3"?

QUOTE:
Well in light of your report I'm thinking at least to a small degree the chip is having issues with your DCC system?

I'm thinking along those lines myself but still want to make a thorough investigation before going back to either Tony's or NCE about the issue(s).

QUOTE:
The F10 thing as an example and not being able to manipulate CV2??

I'm wouldn't think so. I'll have to wait and see after a reinstall the replacement chip back into the Mike tonight.

QUOTE:
Do you have a club or neighbor with a diferent DCC system you can try?

No, unfortunately not. Maybe I'll post a request on the forum to see if someone in my area would be willing to allow me to come over and try out the upgrade chip on their DCC layout.

QUOTE:
Did I read it write in that the low speed problem has been fixed?
Terry[8D]

I'm not entirely sure because CV2 was set at "35" after I installed the replacement chip. (Again, the replacement upgrade chip seemed to take on the inputs of the first upgrade chip.) In hindsight, the only for sure so far is that the F10 issue was resolved and I was able to increase and decrease the speed after pushing it.

Tom

---

And stay close to your dials, kids, for the next exciting installment of the continuing saga, "As The Whirl Turns..."

(I think I'd better get off. I'm starting to feel kinda' QSI...[xx(])

[scubaterry]

Tom - When I put my upgrade in the Hudson I had to prog the four digit address and CV2 was in fact 8. I have no idea how the chip knew your loco number unless Tony's or who ever you got it from programmed it for you????? I am not aware of any RAM. that would be an great ? to ask the QSI folks. It didn't seem to work that way with me. Of course come to think of it I never even tried to call up the four digit addtess after upgrading I just assumed and prog it to four digit. It may have all ready been done??

I am confused with your F10 statements. If I hit F10 with the loco in neutral it reads out the id # of the loco and if it is in standby, shutdown etc. When moving fwd or rev F10 reads out scale speed/ you mention changing speed with F10?? Is there something I am not reading in the manual or something?

Hey check out my new thread on putting a Tsunami and a Digitraxx decoder in my Bowser Loco. Maybe you can help sort out the potential problems.
Terry[8D]

[rexhea]

Tom, I have to agree that your problems seem to be more of a home DCC problem and specificaly, programming.

Have you compared programming in Ops mode to Service mode to see if you get better results, i.e. CV's in Ops and then in Service? (Ops is convenient, but not always reliable)

Do you have a booster on your programming track? (I was able to program all QSI's with my Digitrax Chief 8, but when I got my Tsunami's I had to get a booster.)

I wouldn't compare your old chip with the new as the internal designs may be different and the new may require a higher power level for programming than your system is producing. How is your track voltage level? I run at 14 volts.

Also: The ver. 3 manual states that the default for CV2 is 32, but may be different for different engines. I wouldn't worry about that as you will adjust for the best operation of your engine anyway.

The reason you can't hear the speed readout very well for F10 is the function only lowers the other sounds by half. If you are using high volume, then it will cover up the most of the readout volume which is set.

Just some thoughts.
REX

[scubaterry]

REX - I have a heck of a time figuring out what manual goes with what loco. I have 3 different generations and none seem to match the info in the different manuals. Anyway The directions that come with the upgrade says CV-2 is set for 8. My upgrade chip had CV2 at 8. Tom says his was at 32 so who knows. I don't think they actaully have the new manual that matches the upgrade out yet. It says in progress on the website. Nowhere in any current manual does it explain you have to turn off the RTC before adj CV2 as an example? So hopefully when the upgrade version of the manual comes out it will help explain things.

Forgot to mention the F10 - When I hit my F10 I hear the read out very clearly (even several feet away) so something is not quite right with Toms setup. You can adj what % the vol will go to when F10 is activated. I have mine at 50% which may be the default I don't recall.
Terry[8D]

[rexhea]

Ah, ok Terry. I completely forgot about being able to increase the F10 volume.

Yeah, the default of CV2 really isn't that important anyway as you have to adjust it for your loco/system.
Whoa! This may not apply to the newer chip, but I just read on ver 3, page 30 that CV2 is not used if the throttle is in speed control which when you think about it, RTC senses the load and adjust the power accordingly. Hmmm! Don't know how I missed that. [:O] Now that is confusing. Guess ver 3 is off base for the newer chip.

I know that the manual updates have near bankrupt me trying to print them out. I wi***hey would have 'page only' updates that could be printed out to insert in our printed out manuals.
REX[:)]

[scubaterry]

Rex - I saw that also. cv2 Does not work in speed control even though with the new chip you have to adj CV2 in speed cntrol then go back to RTC??? Be nice when we have a comprehensive manual.. It does act differently in speed cntrol then it does in RTC. I printed out the original manual but now that it is defunct I just pull it up on my laptop in the layout room.
Terry[8D]

[tstage]

Next installment - Here's where things are at:

---

1. I removed the replacement upgrade chip (received from Tony's Train Exchange 6/14) from the ESD bag that it came in and installed it (again) in the BLI Mike.

2. I placed the Mike on the programming track and turned on the Power Cab.

3. The sound came on fine but NO 3 hoots (as per the literature) were heard.

4. I checked the decoder address. Even though the chip had physically been removed from the decoder, it was still programmed to the old four-digit address. [%-)]

5. I reset the decoder TWICE to the factory default settings on the programming track by making CV49 = 128, CV50 = 255, and CV56 = 113. I accomplished this on the programming track but OPS mode, in order to get the verbal acknowledgment.

6. A verbal acknowledgment of "reset" was heard from the decoder but not the 3 hoots - as per the installation literature that accompanied the upgrade chip.

7. After setting the decoder to the factory defaults, as mentioned in step #5, the decoder address was successfully set to "003".

8. Before doing anything else, I double checked the following CV settings in Programming mode:

002 = 022

003 = 000

005 = 001

049 = 000

056 = 000

---

Okay, here's where it gets confusing for me. According to the installation literature that comes with the upgrade chip, the default for CV2 is supposed to be "008". As you can plainly see, in Programming mode, CV2 is set to "022"

Also, when performing the fine tune adjustment procedure, CV49 is changed from "000" (default) to "004" in order to change the locomotive from Regulated Throttle Control (RTC) to Standard Throttle Control (STC). Once you have accomplished this task, CV49 stays at "004" (again, default = 000) and CV56 is changed from "000" (default) to "001".

So, neither CV2, CV49, or CV56 either starts and/or ends at it's own factory default setting - according to either the installation literature or the CV reading in Programming mode. I haven't attempted to run the fine turn test yet nor the F10 test. I wanted to get a base first to see where things were at so I know where thing are "going".

I'll keep you posted...

Tom

[idahoan2004]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage
The replacement upgrade chip for my Mike was already "programmed" to my original locomotive number when I first installed it. So I pulled it out this morning and will try again to program it tonight. I'm hoping that this will start things out on a clean slate.
I didn't get the initial 3 toots when I placed the Mike on the programming track last night but the Power Cab had no problems reading the decoder. Apart from the chip, does the decoder have any RAM that stores CV information? Why wouldn't an installed chip not start up with an address of "3"?

The QSI electronics does contain some RAM that is not a part of the firmware upgrade chip. Stored in this RAM are all CV settings, and this RAM retains settings indefinately without track power. When a new firmware chip (which contains all programming for the CPU and sound data) is installed, it will initiate a reset, and initialize all CVs (stored in RAM) to the default settings for that particular version of the firmware. The reset will only be initiated if the power-on initialization logic detects that a new firmware version has been installed. If the new chip contains firmware not sufficiently different from the firmware in the chip that was previously installed, the need to perform a reset may not be detected (confirmed by you not getting the reset confirmation). In that case, unless you manually perform a reset, all CVs will retain their settings.

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by idahoan2004
The QSI electronics does contain some RAM that is not a part of the firmware upgrade chip. Stored in this RAM are all CV settings, and this RAM retains settings indefinately without track power. When a new firmware chip (which contains all programming for the CPU and sound data) is installed, it will initiate a reset, and initialize all CVs (stored in RAM) to the default settings for that particular version of the firmware. The reset will only be initiated if the power-on initialization logic detects that a new firmware version has been installed. If the new chip contains firmware not sufficiently different from the firmware in the chip that was previously installed, the need to perform a reset may not be detected (confirmed by you not getting the reset confirmation). In that case, unless you manually perform a reset, all CVs will retain their settings.

idahoan2004,

Thank you SO MUCH for the input and the "confirmation" about the additional RAM! That's VERY good news to hear and explains why I only heard the 3 hoots once, when upgrading the 1st upgrade chip. [tup]

Another interesting observation while trying to run the CV2 fine tune adjustment for the umpteenth time. As I stated in my post before, the factory defaults for CV49 and CV56 are both "000". I discovered that when I changed CV49 to "004" to start the fine tune adjustment of CV2, CV56 automatically "changed" it's default to "001".

When I saw it the first time, I started scratching my head because I had distinctly remembered writing down the default of "000" for CV56. Now it was "001". Had I written it down wrong?!?

After resetting the decoder yet a 3rd time, I confirmed that I was NOT seeing things and the factory default for CV56 was indeed "000". Weird! I assume that whenever CV49 is changed to something other than "000", it automatically changes CV56 to "001".

I also confirmed that even though the installation sheet clearly states, "The QSI Upgrade Chip factory default setting for CV 2 is "8" [See pg. 2, first sentence under "Using CV2, (Start Voltage)..."], when calling up CV2 in Programming mode, the default comes up as "022", NOT "8".

And I still have yet to successfully run the CV2 fine tune adjustment. Thanks to Terry, I set CV2 to "035" and have resigned myself to the fact that it's just not going to program like it's described in the Installation info sheet. If I have a chance to run my Mike on someone else's DCC layout, I may ask them if I can try adjusting CV2 in Standard Throttle Control (STC) mode.

Lastly, F10 doesn't seem to be an issue anymore. In fact, although not great, the clarity of the verbal SMPH acknowledgment is actually better than it was. I was going to e-mail Tony's Train Exchange and NCE with the results from the replacement upgrade chip, I may just give them the link and have them read it for themselves. It's just too lengthy to rewrite again and the info is all here.

Thanks again, idahoan2004 - and to everyone (Terry and Rex especially) for your input and help through this long and tedious (and educational!) experience. I dont' know about you but I'm pooped...[xx(]

Tom

[scubaterry]

Tom - I would go right to the source and send this thread to the techs at QSI. It may be valuable info for them. It could be an indication of a problem they aren't aware of. And of course they may be able to resolve the problem.

What are you supposed to do with the original (bad) upgrade chip? If Tony's doesn't require it back you could always send it to me and I can put it in my Mike and see how it acts?
Terry[8D]

[rexhea]

Tom, I probably wasn't that much help but your posting of this thread and with all the input to it certainly was. It is always hard to troubleshoot a complex problem over a medium such as a forum, but hopefully you are now headed in the right direction.

One important fact seems to have surfaced: That the new QSI chip program not only has added user features, but has some changes in their programming methods. What I find odd is my Atlas Gold SD24's supposedly came with the new upgrade decoder and their CV's seem to follow the Ver.3 manual and program just like any other QSI decoder. I sure would like to have some clarification on this.

Someone earlier in the thread reported that his Lionel Challenger already had the changes. Well, my Challenger also had Trottle Speed Control (RTC) and BEMF and I bought it back when they had the cut-rate sale on them.

I would like to order an upgrade for my "Class A", but I certainly want good written support information available. I'm like Terry in not knowing which manual to follow for which locomotive. [%-)] [:D]

Keep us informed of new info.
REX

[tstage]

I e-mailed Tony (TTE) and Larry Larson (NCE), updating them both on the results of replacement upgrade chip that TTE mailed to me. I also provided for them the link to this thread, figuring it would do a much better job of describing all that has transpired over the last week, as well as your questions and comments. Tony, I concur with your thoughts. I think it would be an extremely good and profitable idea to forward this thread to the folks at QSI. Great idea! [:)][tup]

I heard back from Tony this morning. He thinks it may be a problem with my specific Power Cab. Tony told me that they haven't been able to replicate the problem with their setup. I'm still hoping to hear from Larry Larson on the matter.

Terry, Tony did want me to send the original upgrade chip back to him. I do like your idea though. Let me ask Tony if he would be comfortable with doing that first and I'll let you know.

Rex, don't sell yourself short. Your input was invaluable as it helped me try different strategies in tackling the problems I was having, as well as aid me in drawing to some logical conclusions.

You're also right on the need for current and updated documentation on the QSI upgrade chip. FYI: There is a v. 4 of the QSI steam locomotive manual on the QSI Solutions web site. But it's fairly generic and only provides just a handful of examples of the upgrade changes that QSI has added. It is by no means a complete set of them.

I'll keep you posted...

Tom

[scubaterry]

Wow this is like a "reality show". I have to log on everyday to get my "fix". Tom you should contact Hollywood and see if they would be interested in a Reality show on the life and times of a typical RR modeler.[:D]
Terry[8D]

[tstage]

Terry,

I just took your suggestion and e-mailed QSI Solutions, which included a link to this thread. (A LOT easier than trying to regurgitate all the findings in a single e-mail. [xx(]) I'll let you all know if I hear anything back from them. Thanks again for the idea. [:)]

Tom

[jondrd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

Wow this is like a "reality show". I have to log on everyday to get my "fix". Tom you should contact Hollywood and see if they would be interested in a Reality show on the life and times of a typical RR modeler.[:D]
Terry[8D]

Tom,
re: MRR Reality Show

Just make sure your "sell" package includes an authority figure who has ongoing conflict with those working for/with him (or are related to him). Also package must have built in artificial schedules to meet(that mountain scenery HAS TO BE FINISHED in 3 days for the regional NMRA show !!!, etc.). Writing for show must be simple and direct so that the real people can effectively deliver the dialogue and seem like it's real dialogue. Keeping it simple allows essentially same dialog to be used in episode after episode, after episode, after episode.............well, you get the drift.


Jon [:D]

[scubaterry]

Jon - I think you watch way too many Reality shows[:D] But it does sound like you got it down. Now we just have to convince Tom[:)]
Terry[8D]

[tstage]

I guess we could take a show that's already been done or is in existence and embellish upon it. How's this for an idea:

We take 10 up-and-coming clothing design "presenters", place them in a sealed ball room in an exclusive and opulent downtown Philadelphia hotel, and (to take Jon's suggestion) in 3 days have them attempt to build a basic 4 x 8, L-girder layout right before the 2006 NMRA Convention. There could be several entertaining segments of the "contestants" attempting to install a Tsunami sound decoder into a Tech II transformer, creating scenery and structures ONLY with the aide of Jello "wiggles" (or whatever you call the mostly solidified cubes of Jello) and chop sticks, finally culminating in an all out battle for supremacy in a figure "8" Z-scale Demolition Derby - ALL under the auspices of a railroad cap-clad engineer by the name of Simon.

The name of the reality show? What else?

Models in Training
Whatcha think? (And - NO! - Terry, I DON'T watch reality shows. [:)])

Tom

[scubaterry]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage


Models in Training
Whatcha think? (And - NO! - Terry, I DON'T watch reality shows. [:)])

Tom

I don't know Tom you sure seem to know what you are talking about..[:D] I particularly like the Z scale Demolition derby.
Terry[8D]

[jondrd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

Jon - I think you watch way too many Reality shows[:D] But it does sound like you got it down. Now we just have to convince Tom[:)]
Terry[8D]

Actually can't stand 'em.Only one I will watch is with Fosse the hot rod/custom builder.(Actually he's so good relative to the rest of the genre that he qualifies as a true designer).Most of the reality shows suffer from "forced reality" which then makes them unreal. Go figure. [;)]

As Newton Minnow, FCC Chairman in JFK's administration, said in the sixties:

"But when television is bad, nothing is worse. I invite you to sit down in front of your television set when your station goes on the air and stay there without a book, magazine, newspaper, profit and-loss sheet or rating book to distract you--and keep your eyes glued to that set until the station signs off. I can assure you that you will observe a vast wasteland."

Jon [:D]

[jondrd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Terry,

I just took your suggestion and e-mailed QSI Solutions, which included a link to this thread. (A LOT easier than trying to regurgitate all the findings in a single e-mail. [xx(]) I'll let you all know if I hear anything back from them. Thanks again for the idea. [:)]

Tom

Tom,

Checked for update on your query to QSI Solutions. Couldn't find any-are you still waiting?

Jon [8D]

[Anonymous]

Hi, guys. I almost hate to add to this thread, but . . .

Among other BLIs (none upgraded), I have 2 Mikes, one light, one heavy. Both were working properly. Got one of each upgrade chip (the -0 and the -1 variant) from Tony's on Wednesday.

I didn't have a lot of trouble setting CV 2 (although like other posts here, it came set to 22, not 8). I ended up just experimenting, as my NCE Powerhouse won't change CVs while the engine is at any speed step except zero, whether it's actually moving or not. The light is at 14, the heavy at 22. At those settings, with CV 56.4 set to 1 ("Speed Control"), both crawl very nicely at step 1 (of 128), and accelerate and decelerate slowly, as I prefer, with CVs 3 and 4 set to 50.

I did note something some of you might want to try: In "Speed Control" mode, with the default speed curve, and v-high set to any value over 1, I'd see the creeping without acceleration noted in some previous posts. Change CV 5 to 1, and it's fine!?

BUT when I change 56.4 to 2 for Regulated Throttle control, both engines go absolutely nuts! Won't start to move below speed step 22, then moves for about one second, then abruptly stops. Raise throttle to, say, 40 and it'll move again, for about another second or two, then freeze. Increase by one speed step, it'll move just enough for 1 chuff! (Sound is still on, headlight is still bright.) If I press Option for speed step zero, it jumps to speed, then gradually slows down to a stop! Ditto after changing chuff rate in 56.12.

Same behavior on both chips, forward and reverse, even after reset. (And like some of you, the little dude says "Reset", but no whistle sounds.)

Ditto with various settings of v-high (CV 5).

The 3.0 manual says RTC uses v-start and v-high, with no reference to v-mid (page 34). Other than saying it's not supported, there's no mention of v-mid anywhere in the document. I tried setting CV 6, and got no confirmation. When I put 6 in CV 64, the guy just says "CV 6" with no mention of it's value. On the program track, I get "Cannot read CV" for CV 6 (only). Seems pretty clear it just ain't there.

Tony had me remove and reinstall the chips, but there was no change. He's sending 2 replacements . . . should be here Saturday or Monday. (Tony sure is a class act, isn't he?) He said they'd test them before shipping, and I haven't heard from him since, so I assume they're on the way and tested ok there. Hope so.

Since it's both chips, it sure doesn't seem like an installation problem (yes, I was very careful about grounding), or something funky about both engines, but I guess we'll see how the new ones work.