MTH DCS. . .Next evolution of DCC?

[dave hikel]

Hi Jeff,

More often then not, when I have encoutered power problems with 3-rail products it's been due to poor maintainance of the pick-up rollers. In particular, lack of even an ocational drop of oil. This leads to carbon build-up between the roller casting and the roller axle. The typical problem in DCS is that the locomotives start moving at such nice a slow speed that even small bits of dirt in the wrong places can cause an engine to loose power. This is easily corrected, and the problem will not reoccure for a LONG time, but it can be annoying. Buy the way, 5 or 6 pounds, come on , move up to a 25lb MTH Big Boy. [:D]

I think your experience with DCS is more typical. Larger layouts with complex track plans and thus complex wiring have been a challange, but most people have had few problems getting going. Something I usually advise for people who are new to any form of command control is to set up a simple loop directly connected to the control equipment. This gives them a chance to get use to how the system is suposed to operate. After that, when the system is connected to their layout they will know if something isn't running properly.

[jnichols]

I agree with Jerry concerning the wiring issues as I have heard these same comments from other modelers, but as my 3-rail layout is really nothing more than a double mainline running around a shelf in my family room I haven't had a single issue (and I have two feeders for about 250 feet of track). I did have locomotive recognizing issues with one of the firmware revisions for the TIU and handheld, but the current 3.1 seems rock solid. As to the dirty track issues however...

I find myself chuckling when someone tries to compare the track cleaning requirements for an HO scale DCC equipped layout to that of an O scale 3-rail DCS/TMCC equipped layout. While I agree dirt is a problem regardless of scale when using track power, I've never had to clean my track to run my 3-rail trains, even after months and months of use. Sure things will get dirty enough to cause problems, but this is typically after a great deal of time has elapsed, and even then the problems are minimal. On the other hand, several of the HO scale clubs I operate at have nothing but nightmares with track cleaning and many an operating session has grinded to a halt because of this. All of them clean track prior to every event with various methods, and still there are always bad spots and power loses.

Honestly, it would take a slew of scientists and a battery of hands on tests to convince me how a 10-12 ounce HO scale locomotive with pickups through the wheelsets on 2 rails could have better electrical conductivity than a 5-6 pound O scale locomotive picking up power from two outside rails for ground and a center rail for power. Having an On30 layout and N scale layout using DCC at my home, I can surely attest that my 3-rail setup is virtually maintenance free in comparison. Jerry, it makes me wonder what kind of track you've used with your 3-rail stuff. I know the any of the phantom center rail stuff will cause huge problems if not dealt with. I have used Gargraves in the past with some success, but my current layout is done with the new Atlas phantom stuff, and I made sure to poli***he top of the center rail before it was installed.

Of course through all these discussions I realize that everyone has had different experiences to different products. Some seemingly make no sense to others as the problems are so isolated to one layout or user. Honestly I have no idea how well DCS will fair on a 2-rail HO scale layout. I can say that the new PS3 boards are supposed to be significantly more sensitive to the DCS signal than the PS2 boards are, and there is a heavy dose of capacitor backup for brief track power losses built in. Also, I have read several reviews of the K4 now under DCS power, and none of them has said anything about track power issues so I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Jeff

[dave hikel]

Jerry,

Thanks for adding to the discussion. You are of course quite right that DCS has some specific wiring requirements. I've done many DCS installations on layouts of all sizes. Right now I think the longest wire run I've done with DCS is +/- 140ft. on an outdoor layout. Many of the horror stories about getting DCS to work on exsisting layouts are exaggerated. Usually if a layout has been wired for block operation adding DCS is not hard because your already close to having star wiring. Where wire busses have been used the "light bulb trick," which works to match impedence in the wiring, will usually solve signal issues. Often the only real wiring changes that are needed are the addidtion of some ground wires, again to help with the impedence matching. When trouble persists and a locomotive misses a command it just keeps going, much like DCC. In this regard the two systems are very similar. I think a lot of peoples frustration with setting up DCS on exsisting layouts is caused by the rather odd fixes when trouble shooting. Now that we've had the system for a few years things are pritty well worked out. Anybody who dose try DCS in HO will benefit from the work done in O gauge, and this will deffinately make things easier.

An advantage of DCS when trying to trouble shoot signal problems is that each locomotive can be quiried for a signal strength reading on a scale of 1 to 10. Anthing above 4 will work, but will give the various error messages you sited. Readings above 7 will work well.

As for dirty track tolerance, no question DCS dosen't like it in O gauge, but its been less of a problem on the G gauge layouts I've seen. I suspect, but don't claim to know, that this is because of the better power pick-ups. In O gauge 3-rail you usually only get two rollers on the third rail and they tend to accumulate track dirt in a hurry. The new 2-rail/3-rail MTH diesels have four rollers (2 per truck) and I think this might be why. This is one of the reasons I've been interested to get one of the HO K4's and see how it dose out of the box on a layout that hasn't been cleaned.

[JerryZeman]

Dave;

I'd like to add another few items to the PRO and CON list

DCS CONS
Con #1 - Two way communication. This feature, when it works, is great. The problem is frequently the locomotive gets "lost" on the railroad, resulting in messages such as "Locomotive not found, Check track circuit". If the layout isn't wired robustly enough, seeking a locomotive, and not finding it yields a message "Locomotive Not Found".

Con #2 - In order to overcome the finicky nature of DCS that are a well documented shortcoming in the O gauge three rail world, the user on medium to large layouts has to incorporate "star and home run" wiring into the railroad, which becomes a major PITA if trying to retrofit DCS to an existing layout. Add to this the need to hang lightbulbs all over the track circuits to stabilize the DCS signal.

DCS PRO

The DCS system comes with wireless remote throttles, which are a significant cost option in DCC. (I own NCE wireless DCC).

DCC PRO

DCC Pro #1 - DCC will deploy on any well wired conventional railroad, and I've seen exceptional results even on railroads with temporary wiring installations. No lost locomotives, and the worst that happens is speed changes due to voltage drops. I still successfully run DCC on my layout extension 80 linear ft. of wiring from my power booster, despite a 2.5 VAC line loss due to wire inductance (I need to twist my bus wires to eliminate the loss, already verified in testing external to the RR).

DCC Pro #2 - At least based on my experience with two HO railroads, a modular three rail hi-rail group, and a 28x20 home hi-rail layout, DCC is far more tolerant of dirty track than DCS.

regards,
Jerry Zeman

[okiechoochoo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The folks who have used DCS in O gauge know how great it is. It's far superior to DCC in every way. It will take a while to convince people of the advantages over DCC, but once they try it, they'll be hooked.[tup]
www.mthhotrains.com

I tried DCS in O guage and it didn't hook me. Had more problems than I knew what to do with and MTH tech wasn't much help. Sold it all. Now in HO and have no intention of trying it here

[dave hikel]

I would just encourage anyone in HO who is interested in sound and lighting features and command control to keep an open mind and check out DCS on an O scale layout.

I'm sure DCC will remain the dominant system in HO for the forseeable future. But, just as competition from Apple has made the PC a better product, I think some competition for DCC will be beneficial in the long run.

Even if someone who uses DCC has NO interest in switching, I think they can benefit from seeing competitive products. I'm a full time layout builder, and I have never seen a layout that didn't give me some new ideas. Even if my other projects have nothing to do with the style or era of that layout it's still worth the time to look. I love seeing people get excited about their layouts, and the technology we use to run our trains has become a big part of that excitement.

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave hikel

Jeff,

Thanks for the kind words. I had not heard anything on MTH's plans to release PS3 kits, but this is encouraging. If this is the case, I think many of the early adopters of DCS in HO (or on HO track) will probably be owners of On30 who my already have DCS for O scale.

Dave,

You described me to a tee! I have had a DCS system for over two years now (yes I had a v1.0 setup) and use it daily with my 3-rail stuff, but I have been anxiously awaiting the smaller PS3 system. As I don't really model in HO scale, I could care less about all the negative K4 postings here and elsewhere. I have always preferred my DCS setup to any of the DCC systems I have owned, I look forward to ditching my current Digitrax setup once the PS3 boards are available and my small fleet of On30 equipment will make a great testing ground (especially if a smoke unit is included!). There are still a lot of questions about this product in my mind... Things like the reverse loop issue (this wasn't discussed in the MR review of the K4 which surprised me a bit), the physical size of the PS3 components, is the smoke unit going to be included in the PS3 kit, will the tach tape and IR sensor be included for speed control or will it be some form of BEMF, and many more will ultimately be the deciding factors for me switching over.

Hopefully MTH will realize that the market for factory decoder equipped models is but a mere sliver of what's really out there, and they will come to market quickly with an affordable alternative to the DCC products now available. I do know that sales of the PS2 conversion kits for the O scale models have far exceeded the expectations MTH had, so using this data they should release an installable PS3 system quickly. Honestly I think much of the anti-MTH/DCS/K4 sentiment would go away if this product was available as modelers in other scales would have the opportunity to play with the product in their own equipment and on their own layouts, but of course only time will tell... [:D]

Again thanks for the positive post! It's nice to read a post from someone who doesn't pummel MTH for trying to bring a cool new system to the smaller scales (I'll never understand this either... [xx(])

Jeff

PS> I'm considering buying a K4 just to gut it and remove the PS3 system for installation in a Spectrum On30 Consol. I will certainly post my findings if I decide to do this as I'm sure there are at least a few interested folks here... [;)]

[dave hikel]

Jeff,

Thanks for the kind words. I had not heard anything on MTH's plans to release PS3 kits, but this is encouraging. If this is the case, I think many of the early adopters of DCS in HO (or on HO track) will probably be owners of On30 who my already have DCS for O scale.

[jnichols]

Dave,

Excellent repsonse and a great addition to the wealth of information that's available about the DCS system. I did want to address a couple of your DCS cons based on information I have received through the grapevine...

QUOTE:

2. DCS "decoders" not available for seperate purchase - MTH was suprised buy the level of demand from DCS users in O scale for upgrade kits. Some people even bought the cheapest Protosound 2.0 locomotives to rob the parts to upgrade their more expensive locomotives. This lead MTH to offer upgrade kits which has opened the door to installing Protosound 2.0 in almost any O scale locomotive. If MTH wants to attract HO operators to DCS they MUST do the same for Protosound 3.0. MTH can't come out with enough locomotives fast enough to compete with companies that have been in HO for decades. Their only hope for DCS is to let undividuals and hobby shops buy Protosound 3.0 electronics for installation in competitors products.

I have heard through several sources that the Protosound 3 boards will be made available to the aftermarket soon. MTH realizes that in order for people in HO scale to take advantage of the DCS system, they must be able to retrofit it in other brands of locomotives. When this is made available, and what the final pricing will be is of course still in the air, but I for one can't wait. If the PS3 boards support all the features of the PS2 boards like downloadable sound files and cam systems using tach tape and IR sensors I will convert my On30 fleet over completely.

QUOTE:

3. Only addresses 98 locomotives - This is the only major feature where DCC is ahead of DCS. Dave Kriebel (sp?) at MTH has told me in the past that they are considering a rewrite of the software to allow for 4-digit addressing, but that leads to con #4.

I have also heard that this will be addressed in a new firmware release. While very few O scalers have 98 locomotives, there are many HO scale modelers with this many locomotives on their layout.

Thanks again for your post!

Jeff

[dave hikel]

Though we haven't seen MTH's K4 yet we have seen DCS in O scale and I think we can make some informed comparisons with DCC. I've worked with DCS in O and G, and with DCC in HO. Here's my $.02

PROS of DCC as a system:
1. Compatibility of decoders and controlers
2. Competative market that has, and probibly will continue to, drive down cost
3. Lot of options for level of sophistication (Zephyr up to Super Chief)
4. Lots of equipment already available

CONS of DCC as a system:
1. Proprietary cabs and other hardware - the compatibility of DCC is great when we go to a club layout or a friend's house, but we still have to pick one manufacturer (for the most part) for our own layouts.
2. Lack of two-way communication - even with sensors and network systems like Loconet and Xpressnet we dont really get any info back to the cab from the locomotive.
3. Getting old - in spite of all the fine efforts by NMRA and Lenz, DCC just dosen't take advantage of many bits of techno wizardry that have become available to electronics manufacturers over the years. This is the double edged sword of having a standard. Example - The FCC (then FRC) gave us the NTSC standard for television, and ever since you could buy a TV that worked with any TV station's broadcast. But, the computer screen your looking at probibly is showing you a much higher resolution picture than your good old TV set.

PROS of running the MTH K4 in DCC:
The MTH K4 looks to be a highly detailed and highly featured locomotive in DCC. The list of sound, lighting and control features that can be accessed is impressive. From my way of thinking, MTH has come up with probably the most sophisticated DCC decoder available.

CONS of running the MTH K4 in DCC:
For those who want to run in DCC, but don't care about all the "bells and whistles," MTH dosen't offer a stripped down version - it's the whole nine yards or nothing. This makes the K4 pricey compared to other well detailed models without such systems.


PROS of DCS as a system:
1. LOTS of features in every locomotive - smph speed control, many sounds, good smoke (if you like), MU lash-ups of any locomotives without reprograming CV's, etc.
2. Two-way communications - this gives positive feed back of wheather or not the locomotives are executing commands.
3. Software based - both the locomotives and DCS hardware (track interface unit (TIU) and handheld (wireless remote cab)) can and have had software updates.
4. Price - Yes, price. The DCS hardware has an MSRP of $299.95, and you can easily find it for $250. For your $250 you get a system that can run 40 amps of AC or DC power, and a wireless cab. The closest comparable system in DCC is the Digitarax Super Chief (listed at Tony's Train Exchange for $449.95). Adding accessory control is also cost competative. The accessory interface unit (AIU) can be purchased for around $90. It has twenty relays (10 SPDT momentary and 10 SPDT latching) that can be controled from the cab. Each TIU can be connected to five AIU's. Additional cabs cost about $125. A FULLY maxed out DCS system would cost $4750 and could handle:
200 amps
98 locomotives
500 switches or accessories
unlimited number of wireless cabs

CONS of DCS as asystem
1. Only Protosound 2.0 and Protosound 3.0 equiped locomotives can run in command on DCS layouts and the K4 is the only Protosound 3.0 locomotive in HO - When MTH came out with the DCS system in O scale in 2004 they had already been selling Protosound 2.0 locomotives for two years, so a lot of guys could run several locomotives on day one.
2. DCS "decoders" not available for seperate purchase - MTH was suprised buy the level of demand from DCS users in O scale for upgrade kits. Some people even bought the cheapest Protosound 2.0 locomotives to rob the parts to upgrade their more expensive locomotives. This lead MTH to offer upgrade kits which has opened the door to installing Protosound 2.0 in almost any O scale locomotive. If MTH wants to attract HO operators to DCS they MUST do the same for Protosound 3.0. MTH can't come out with enough locomotives fast enough to compete with companies that have been in HO for decades. Their only hope for DCS is to let undividuals and hobby shops buy Protosound 3.0 electronics for installation in competitors products.
3. Only addresses 98 locomotives - This is the only major feature where DCC is ahead of DCS. Dave Kriebel (sp?) at MTH has told me in the past that they are considering a rewrite of the software to allow for 4-digit addressing, but that leads to con #4.
4. Only MTH can offer software - Currently MTH has not licensed any other companies to write software for the DCS system. This has greatly slowed the expansion of DCS into areas like full computer control of the layout. It has been painfully obvious to those in O scale that MTH is NOT a software company. If DCS is to survive and thrive on HO or O scales I believe they must licence software development to other parties.

PROS of running the MTH K4 in DCS
1. Full access to all features

CONS of running the K4 in DCS
1. It will be as lonely as the Maytag repairman

[Anonymous]

Time will tell what system the greatest number of HO model railroaders will choose. There is another good comparison that can be made. Apple computers vs. the PC. Apple may make a better computer and have a better OS. But I'm sitting at a PC running Windows NT. Why? because Bill Gates made the architecture available for all who wanted to develope software and hardware to run with it. While apple chose to make their system proprietary and closed to hardware and software developers.

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NS2591

DCS will never make it, MTH will never make it. Stick to your O scale Mike, better yet, Get out of Modeling. DCS came in too late, I may have considered it untiill the Lawsuite with QSI came around. Had he not done that, made I (and many others) might look at it. I will never convert, i love my Digitrax!

Geez Jay, did Mike come over and throw rocks at your house or something... [?] It's just too bad all you guys have to bash MTH. Never in my years as a modeler have so many people expressed their sour feelings for a company and situations they have such little knowledge of... [:(]

Jeff

[NS2591]

DCS will never make it, MTH will never make it. Stick to your O scale Mike, better yet, Get out of Modeling. DCS came in too late, I may have considered it untiill the Lawsuite with QSI came around. Had he not done that, made I (and many others) might look at it. I will never convert, i love my Digitrax!

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The folks who have used DCS in O gauge know how great it is. It's far superior to DCC in every way. It will take a while to convince people of the advantages over DCC, but once they try it, they'll be hooked.

Which people? The tiny minority who want to run their layout using only Pennsy K-4s? What about the rest of us?

And FWIW, it doesn't even look to be a particularly good model of a K-4. What's with the yawning gap under the firebox?

Mark.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

AntonioFP45,BLI's diesel sounds leaves a lot to be desired as well judging by hearing them in person.

Brakie,

I was referring to the BLI Steamers since the comparisons have been speculative as to what the MTH HO steamer will present as far as detailing, performance, and sound. I may be a poor judge, but the sounds from the T1, the Mallets, and the J class Hudsons are sweet and enjoyable!

Now, if you remember I was critical of some of BLI diesels. The BLI SD40-2 was dissappointing, but some of the other units like the AC 6000 and the E units, IMHO, sound great. The GE C30-7 FDL16 series prime mover sounds, IMHO, are right on target. (As a railfan, I've seen and heard loads and loads of GE locos)

Of course no product is going to be perfect. But "leaving a bit to be desired"? We should remember that before BLI hit the market just a few years ago; while sound in HO decoders were available, it wasn't as widespread as now, the quality was not as good, and it was very expensive. Soundtraxx's premium decoder was the DSD150. Many of us could not afford $170+ sticker price then (and that wasn't even including the speaker). Soundtraxx was on top of the food chain and was easily able to set those prices since competition was pitiful back then.

I understand what you're saying but in retrospect BLI/QSI will likely, and should be recognized as the company that really brought ready-made HO sound equipped locos out onto the market. We've benefited greatly as a result. IMHO, it pushed Soundtraxx off of its comfortable laurels out onto the realm of serious competition. The MTH vs. QSI lawsuit provided another incentive to produce a top quality product. Digitrax jumped onboard recently and LokSound targeted the U.S market.

Win-win for us![;)]

[tsgtbob]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The folks who have used DCS in O gauge know how great it is. It's far superior to DCC in every way. It will take a while to convince people of the advantages over DCC, but once they try it, they'll be hooked.[tup]
www.mthhotrains.com

Seems this statement is refered to a lot in this thread. Here's my .02 on the issue. So far, speaking with the HO guys here, the consensus is a big fat SO WHAT!?!?
Too many K4s for one, a reputation from the 3 rail side for strike two, and strike three is that it's a propriortary system.
I used to use Keller's Onboard many years ago, yeah it was good for it's day, but the open source DCC came out, and now I have a really neat box of nearly useless crap sitting under the layout!
As a 2 rail O scaler, I see the fighting between the 3 rail manufacturers actually hurting the hobby. Some MTH stuff is nice, close to scale, and very convertable to 2 rail. Problem is, I really don't like to convert something that is never going to be 100% "right" for O scale.
Plus, I don't want to be dictated to as to what I have available to buy for my layout. There is an arrogance to the 3 rail world, one that seems (note the word SEEMS) to have the attitude "you WILL buy because we say so"
I sometimes envy the HO world!

[BRAKIE]

AntonioFP45,BLI's diesel sounds leaves a lot to be desired as well judging by hearing them in person.

[AntonioFP45]

I'm with you there Dinwitty.[;)]

I've enjoyed seeing QSI equipped BLI HO steamers running at the club I joined. Am very impressed with the quality, performance, and the beautiful body & chassis detailing these locomotives came with. Those Mallets are show stoppers for sure!

Not trying to be pessimistic about the MTH unit, but IMHO it's going to take quite a bit more than synchronized chuff to make lasting impressions with some BLI owners (likely a lot of them).

As stated by some modelers before, smoke units may or may not be welcome at some clubs or homes. In fact, I had wondered about introducing smoke units for diesels (dark colored smoke of course); especially since prototype GE U-Boats and Alco diesels were "torrid" smokers. However, the same issue of smelly smoke coating the track with an oily film came up. Moot issue. But of course, to each his or her own.[;)]

BTW: I may be mistaken, but from my understanding synchronizing a steamer's chuff is already possible with the Tsunami. Hopefully Cmarchand will chime in with info on this.

[dinwitty]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The folks who have used DCS in O gauge know how great it is. It's far superior to DCC in every way. It will take a while to convince people of the advantages over DCC, but once they try it, they'll be hooked.[tup]
www.mthhotrains.com

were talking HO.

and I am not convinced.
I like my QSI DCC 2-6-6-4.

[cmarchan]

see my reply here on the sister thread:

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=66570

[Anonymous]

The web site might just be behind - I noticed it said these models were available summer of '05.

Well, good for the Pennsy steam modelers.

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jsmaye

Whereas DCS looks promising, do see a lot "will" on the web site, as in what the HO version "will" do once it's released. Probably better to reserve judgement until there's actually production models to try out.

DCS has been available for over 3 years now in the O scale market. While the locomotive and electronics in HO scale are smaller, the DCS command system and features are identical from what I can gather. I've seen the HO scale model in person (although it wasn't running), and I've seen several videos of it now running and smoking away so I have no doubt it will do everything they have promised... [;)]

Jeff

[Anonymous]

Whereas DCS looks promising, do see a lot "will" on the web site, as in what the HO version "will" do once it's released. Probably better to reserve judgement until there's actually production models to try out. As far as it being superior to DCC -

Betamax outperformed VHS. MicroChannel outperformed ISA. DCS outperforms DCC. All of the former items were/are closed-source and proprietary.

Although a derivative of the Betamax format lives on in professional world.

[JerryZeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The folks who have used DCS in O gauge know how great it is. It's far superior to DCC in every way. It will take a while to convince people of the advantages over DCC, but once they try it, they'll be hooked.[tup]
www.mthhotrains.com

Jeff and I had a rather lengthy discussion on this subject about one month ago. Perhaps you would care to re-read it if you're really concerned about getting to the cruxt of people's concerns with DCS instead of making baseless and inane statements that you choose not to back up with facts.

For your convenience, the thread address is posted below:

http://trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=2&TOPIC_ID=62890

regards,
Jerry Zeman

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: [). I've seen one where the user points with a mouse to slider bars on a graph in order to set the CV variables. No idea what CVs they are or what the values are being set to. Just point to where the volume or whatever is desired.

That would be DecoderPro..........I Love Mine!!!!!!!!![:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The folks who have used DCS in O gauge know how great it is. It's far superior to DCC in every way.

Really??? Wow! Please tell us HOW it is in EVERYWAY. PLEASE! Do tell in detail.

. A forum member offered MTH the opportunity to test DCS and the K4 on his HO layout with uncleaned track.......and of course the test never materialized.

So again, the question is how do you know that is is far superior to DCC in everyway? Do you own the HO setup yet?

At least JNichols gives some detailed insight. But like the MTH K4, with all due respect, it seems that you're once again belching smelly smoke! [|)][B)]

Is That what that smell was???? [:0] I was thinking somebody needed a shower,,,bad!![swg][wow][C):-)][4:-)][:O][(-D][:-,][}:)]

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