Don U. TCA 73-5735
jecorbett wrote: NMRA established DCC standards a number of years ago so that components of different manufacturers would be compatible. Manufacturers were free to adhere to those standards or not and most made the business decision to go with the program. MTH has opted to go another route. I'm all for choices but I think I'll stay on the beaten path and stay with DCC. To the pioneers go the arrows. Besides, why would I want to convert to a system that limits me to one manufacturer. With DCC I have a choice and my Lenz system can run my BLI QSI locos and my drop in Digitrax decoders with no problems. With numerous companies working for me, I can take advantage of the innovations of any one of them. If I went with DCS, I would be limited to what MTH comes up with in the future. Count me out on this one.
NMRA established DCC standards a number of years ago so that components of different manufacturers would be compatible. Manufacturers were free to adhere to those standards or not and most made the business decision to go with the program. MTH has opted to go another route. I'm all for choices but I think I'll stay on the beaten path and stay with DCC. To the pioneers go the arrows. Besides, why would I want to convert to a system that limits me to one manufacturer. With DCC I have a choice and my Lenz system can run my BLI QSI locos and my drop in Digitrax decoders with no problems. With numerous companies working for me, I can take advantage of the innovations of any one of them. If I went with DCS, I would be limited to what MTH comes up with in the future. Count me out on this one.
Most of us agree with you "Count me out on this one. "
I only use DCS for the two #1 scale engines, but it is designed for the functions and options that are built into those models. They run on DC also, but work much better on the DCS. I purchased the system just to run the two engines, provided they were on the track in the correct direction.
The funny thing is, I was told by MTH technical representatives my DCS system will not run the HO model MTH K4, so I did not buy one.
NYCentral1 wrote:From what I have read in the MTH DCS ad, this system doesn't sound that appealing to me either. Maybe it's just me, but MTH just seems to be full of themselves, and trying/wanting to make the whole model railroading hobby an entirely MTH "exclusive" item.
The #1 scale engines sounds are extremely good. I can credit some of that to the larger speaker in the tender, but they use the 3985's whistle and bell sounds for the 3985 and they use the 4449 whistle and bell sounds for their 4449 model. It is as good as it gets for both of these. They also chuff correctly and are very convincing for model trains with the exhaust exactly timed to every chuff. The Challenger actually times the double chuffs with the smoke even when they are running in and out of sync.
The DCS system operation does have operating limitations, but the sound itself is great. I noticed that shorting or overloading the track will cause the DCS driver in the Track Interface Unit to blow out. This is a problem that happened twice to my TIU and it had to be sent back in for repair. No Fuse??
It just proves there is no perfect system.
DMUinCT wrote:CAZEPHYR, The "Daylight" DOES have a polarity switch. Open the Smoke box door, the switch is on the right near the hinge. Look close, it's to the right of the Charging Jack. A notice was posted on the MTH Web Site in the "G" (Gauge One) section as it was not in the Owner's Manual. I have not tried to add/change the Challenger. On my 4 Wide Cab Dash-8s, I reversed the feed wires from the power trucks on 2 of them so I could run them "back to back" in pairs (only the outside pair of wires of the 4 on each plug). The Hudson has a Polarity Switch on the right bottom side ash pan, the Narrow Nose Dash-8s have it on the bottom behind the front truck.
Thanks for the information about the switch. I did locate it, and you are right, the Challenger does not have it. I was thinking it would be automatic, not manual. It is still is a problem with any operation except a giant loop. This means you would have to have reverse loop switch wired much like standard DC opertion.
Thanks
DMUinCT wrote:True, the first run Challengers and Dash-8s had to be put on the track in one direction. All current production locomotives have a polarity switch so it can be put on the rails in ether direction. With 2 Rail DC the negitive rail carries the digital signal. Software based is the only way to go. When you make a large outlay for a "Solid State" system you will not want it to become obsolete in a few years, with software based, updates can be downloaded and the control system kept up to date. I do love the system. MTH spent $4 million on DCS development, few DCC supliers can afford that outlay. They also fought the Union Pacific and won the right for ALL model train makers to produce UP trains and Logos without a sur-charge. They do defend themself. Lionel has spen the money to bring out a NEW "TMCC" that has most of the "DCS" features even tho Lionel is in bankrupcy after MTH winning the case. Lionel is still operating on borrowed money, but, with the backing of LARGE banks and new managment they will servive and prosper.
It would seem logical that a new and updated change to correct the directional deficiency would be offered to the previous models. MTH should offer this correction to all of the previous models out in the field. I also have the Daylight and it has the same problem.
Do you know if this modification is available for upgrading my two models??
I credit MTH for their working with the Union Pacific to solve the problem of the use of the names. This was a good thing and all of the manufacturers and modelers will benefit greatly from this.
TrainFreak409 wrote:I still prefer MTH DCS over Lionel's TMCC; so flame me.
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brothaslide wrote:I was reviewing the MTH site regarding their DCS system. Anybody have any thoughts on this system or experience. It seems to be a more user friendly DCC system.
Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern
darth9x9 wrote: If you are into O gauge (or scale), you really only have two choices: Lionel's system or MTH's DCS. Choosing between the two is a no-brainer - favoring MTH's DCS. In HO scale however, DCS, is a step backward. Many of the CVs are -NOT- settable. A friend of mine talked to the fellow who helped engineer DCS (and who by the way is an O scaler), said that they designed the system to cater to the DC world since that is what 90% of HO people are using - yup, he thinks only 10% of the HO market uses DCC. That is incredible short sightedness on MTH's part. No one said that every manufacturer was a marketing genius.
If you are into O gauge (or scale), you really only have two choices: Lionel's system or MTH's DCS. Choosing between the two is a no-brainer - favoring MTH's DCS. In HO scale however, DCS, is a step backward. Many of the CVs are -NOT- settable. A friend of mine talked to the fellow who helped engineer DCS (and who by the way is an O scaler), said that they designed the system to cater to the DC world since that is what 90% of HO people are using - yup, he thinks only 10% of the HO market uses DCC. That is incredible short sightedness on MTH's part. No one said that every manufacturer was a marketing genius.
I read about the greatness of DCS over the Lionel system, but that is three rail and it must be somewhat different from two rail operation. Try two rail DCS as in #1 scale. I purchased the Challenger two years ago and the DCS system for the two rail track. It is very interesting and has great sounds since the large speaker in the tender can really make the whistle sounds as they should be and the chuffing is extremely good.
If you set the engine on the track facing the wrong direction, the DCS system reports the engine is not on the track or it is out of RF range. The model has to be re-positioned on the track or the leads have to be reversed to run the engine in DCS mode.
I don't see the # 1 scale as a highly advanced system but I realize the HO version will run on DCC or DCS. It must be a later version of their software, but the #1 scale is very limited to a giant loop of track with your engine facing a certain direction. I enjoy the model since it is a great looking engine, but it has many limitations that I would like to see corrected. DCS will not be the next step for my HO use.
The service department repaired my DCS unit two times at no cost. If you lay anything on the track, it seems to blow out the DCS driver that allows the unit to talk to the engine in DCS mode, but you could still run it in DC mode. It is too tempermental for my use outside.
Overall, the model is nice and fun to run but not pratical for outside use. I would still buy it again just for the value of it as a display item.
brothaslide wrote: DigitalGriffin wrote: It seems this thread was dead for several months. Why bring it up now? First post and it's in support of DCS. You know the rules for trolls guys. Do not reply. It only feeds them. I don't see how anyone is trolling.
DigitalGriffin wrote: It seems this thread was dead for several months. Why bring it up now? First post and it's in support of DCS. You know the rules for trolls guys. Do not reply. It only feeds them.
It seems this thread was dead for several months. Why bring it up now?
First post and it's in support of DCS.
You know the rules for trolls guys. Do not reply. It only feeds them.
The post above mine is "highly suspect" for trolling. Not any thing you posted.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
DigitalGriffin wrote:It seems this thread was dead for several months. Why bring it up now? First post and it's in support of DCS. You know the rules for trolls guys. Do not reply. It only feeds them.
DMUinCT wrote:Control/sound upgrade kit $150 (too big for "HO"). IF, IF, the "HO" can be made compatible with DCC, upgrades in both "G" and "HO" would be easy. Buy the way, the sound level control is a must for outdoor operation.
First post by a newb and it's in support of DCS.
darth9x9
You have made an interesting observation that I had not heard comparing the MTH DCS to the Lionel system. It might be we have all been thinking in like terms for all of the scales and uses, but they really do differ. I noticed that early on in this subject, someone was talking about the track and the fact it did not have to be cleaned with the three rail, at least very often. That probably is true since the engine weight is so greater and the third rail roller or wiper is spring loaded and has force behind it.
In HO, we depend on gravity and most of the latest engines are plastic with some weight added. The lack of weight and the much smaller two rail system has to be much cleaner. This is the reason some of the latest sound locomotives have given problems to new owners that simply ran dc or a few DCC a lived with the problem of dirty track or poor contacts.
Thanks for the observation. I don't have three rail, but it does sound like DCS is an improvement.
I can remember when we use to run the American Flyer, we would run the trains to clean the rails and you could smell the sparks when you first ran it after it set unused for a time. The point is, it would clean up because of the weight and slider tender pickups and start to run good.
Bill Carl (modeling Chessie and predecessors from 1973-1983) Member of Four County Society of Model Engineers NCE DCC Master Visit the FCSME at www.FCSME.org Modular railroading at its best! If it has an X in it, it sucks! And yes, I just had my modeler's license renewed last week!
CAZEPHYR wrote: Antonio When I see your name incorporating FP45, it reminds me you should be very happy with the recent announcement from Athearn about the FP45 and F45 on their new products. I hope it is as good as the Genesis F units in detail, as they have set new standards for detail.
Antonio
When I see your name incorporating FP45, it reminds me you should be very happy with the recent announcement from Athearn about the FP45 and F45 on their new products. I hope it is as good as the Genesis F units in detail, as they have set new standards for detail.
The DCS and MTH advertisement for HO is interesting to me since it has been going on for so long, any word of it being available and actual viewing of the product may be anticlimactic to our forum. I read last week that the models were in shipment
I've been following the MTH threads ever since the big hoopla back in 2004. As I stated on another MTH thread, it's like watching a tired old soap opera.....but we keep tuning in regardless!
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
The DCS and MTH advertisement for HO is interesting to me since it has been going on for so long, any word of it being available and actual viewing of the product may be anticlimactic to our forum.
I read last week that the models were in shipment and one reader said he was to get his last week, but no report or review by readers up until now. .
CAZEPHYR wrote: Does anyone of us really have any information about DCS in HO?? This is an interesting subject, but it never gets answered.
Does anyone of us really have any information about DCS in HO??
This is an interesting subject, but it never gets answered.
Well Caz, you know the situation. Most of the technical "speculation" that's been discussed has been based on DCS application in O scale, which of course has very significant differences when compared to HO.
Just as with new products all we can do is wait and see. Even after it hits the market it may be a while before we read or hear of significant numbers of customer feedback. Of course, IMHO, MTH's competitor's such as Digitrax, Lenz, NCE, QSI, BLI/PCM, etc will likely purchase units as well for laboratory "dissection". Typical sauce for the goose........or business as usual.
QUOTE: Originally posted by jnichols As to the dirty track issues however... I find myself chuckling when someone tries to compare the track cleaning requirements for an HO scale DCC equipped layout to that of an O scale 3-rail DCS/TMCC equipped layout. While I agree dirt is a problem regardless of scale when using track power, I've never had to clean my track to run my 3-rail trains, even after months and months of use. Sure things will get dirty enough to cause problems, but this is typically after a great deal of time has elapsed, and even then the problems are minimal. On the other hand, several of the HO scale clubs I operate at have nothing but nightmares with track cleaning and many an operating session has grinded to a halt because of this. All of them clean track prior to every event with various methods, and still there are always bad spots and power loses.
QUOTE: Honestly, it would take a slew of scientists and a battery of hands on tests to convince me how a 10-12 ounce HO scale locomotive with pickups through the wheelsets on 2 rails could have better electrical conductivity than a 5-6 pound O scale locomotive picking up power from two outside rails for ground and a center rail for power.
QUOTE: Having an On30 layout and N scale layout using DCC at my home, I can surely attest that my 3-rail setup is virtually maintenance free in comparison. Jerry, it makes me wonder what kind of track you've used with your 3-rail stuff. I know the any of the phantom center rail stuff will cause huge problems if not dealt with. I have used Gargraves in the past with some success, but my current layout is done with the new Atlas phantom stuff, and I made sure to poli***he top of the center rail before it was installed.
QUOTE: Of course through all these discussions I realize that everyone has had different experiences to different products. Some seemingly make no sense to others as the problems are so isolated to one layout or user. Honestly I have no idea how well DCS will fair on a 2-rail HO scale layout. I can say that the new PS3 boards are supposed to be significantly more sensitive to the DCS signal than the PS2 boards are, and there is a heavy dose of capacitor backup for brief track power losses built in. Also, I have read several reviews of the K4 now under DCS power, and none of them has said anything about track power issues so I'll keep my fingers crossed.
QUOTE: Originally posted by dave hikel Hi Jeff, Buy the way, 5 or 6 pounds, come on , move up to a 25lb MTH Big Boy. [:D] I think your experience with DCS is more typical.