UP vs Model Railroaders This Madness has to end. (Lawyers I want options)

[Anonymous]

UP has the right to protect their name. What's so wrong with that? What is so upsetting about UP wanting to do what they feel is best for their stockholders?

and enough with the stUPid! I'd like to think UP is one of the better railroads out there. Sure they have their share of problems but, all railroads do, it's a part of the job. If you think you know how to solve these problems then call UP and let them know. They are hiring ya know.

[vsmith]

What I love is that MTH will likely cause Uncle Pete to spend $3 million dollars in laywers fees in order to get their $3 an engine fee.

[davekelly]

Rails,

Several good points. Unfortunately the one that can better bear the costs generally has a better chance of prevailing. Related to this is that the more well-heeled party can afford a "its the principal of the thing" case.

A person here once had a link to go to the CSX licencing agreement and the darn thing was one page front and back. Very simple to fill out and if I remember correctly it actually used simple words. The UP agreement, to be honest, seems a little like a surgeon doing a toncilectomy (sp?) through the rectum. While I don't have all the info, it is my understanding that UP wants x percent of the price of UP stuff sold or a percent of the manufacturers total output. Under the first option, it is my understanding that UP wants the money upfront. Perhaps they believe a manufacturer won't be around by the end of the year to make payment. In any case, the only way to verify all of this is to go through business records ad naseum. While it may seems that it would have been alot easier to say something like "at the end of every quarter submit ___ for each UP thing sold during that quarter" there still needs to be a way to audit the thing - thus the need for business records.

To be honest, if a client were to come to me with this situation I would most likely advise to just work with the manufacturer and come up with some solution that wouldn't require financial analysis. I'm sure UP spends more money in going through all the information than it brings in. There are many ways to handle licensing. I once figured that the CSX licencing fee is pretty much the same as the UP agreement. Why is it that there is no CSX backlash? Probably because they handled the issue on a friendly face to face exchange between the two parties. It's funny how being mean and nasty can often times bring about a more favorable short term result, but a really terrible long term result.

I believe your "likely source" number 2 is probably closer to actuality than you may think. I don't know any attorney that would advise a client to do something that would cost them more than it returns. I also do not know how the financial guys are justifying the expense given the returns, so perhaps your reason number 1 is correct.

In any event, I would agree with the statement that UP has the right to protect its property. I do not, however, agree with the way they are handling it - both from a personal view and a lawyer view. I'm sure somewhere in the UP corporate office is a guy who is a "hire the meanest toughest lawyer you can find to pursue this into the ground." My former boss loved companies that were run by folks like this. They would eventually hire him to represent them in bankruptcy.

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure that the IP issue is as clear-cut as some indicate. My reason (having been involved in a couple of trademark cases as an expert witness, but I am NOT a lawyer) is that UP allowed model companies to reproduce their logo for decades without interference. Be that as it may, with their deep pockets they'll undoubtedly prevail; a great deal of commercial litigation revolves around who can best bear the pain of the legal bills (lawyers, feel free to comment).

They do not need to go through all this rigamarole if their only intent is to protect their logo and trademark; a quite simple standardized agreement no longer than three pages in length would do perfectly adequately.

To me, as a management consultant, their heavy-handed approach has either of two likely sources (not necessarily exclusive):

1. When companies are as bad as UP, at managing their core business, it is common to look to sidelines like this for a few bucks in incremental revenue.

2. Some senior manager read an article in the business press about making money from licensing products and got a bee under his/her bonnet about it.

[AntonioFP45]

Sorry guys, Student.

With all due respect, while this issue is annoying at worst........it's being blown extremely out of proportion.

UP can no more get a list of customers with UP models than GM can find out who owns GM model cars. (Hmmmmmmmmm. Maybe they want to know that I have two scale models of Pontiac Trans Ams![:p][:o)]). Nobody's rights in this case are being eaten away.

Student, if you wi***o move out of the U.S, you're going to find that there's problems in every country on the globe. My sister-in-law lived in Europe for several years. Many services are government subsidized, however Gas is high, cost of living is high, crime is high in many area, criminals are slapped on the wrists, and taxes are high. She disliked this country before.........now she's more than happy to be back.

....If you want to get UP locos and cars for your layout and pay the extra $1.00 $3.00 or whatever than go for it. If not.......then don't.

I'm going to continue enjoying this hobby and will continue to include UP equipment in my fleet. If a reputable manufacturer ever produces a decent plastic HO U50 in UP.....I'm going for it.

Why don't we stop stressing over this and enjoy our trains!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

With MTH being the premier model railroading company, UP doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell beating them. Mr. Wolf has a team of very skilled and first class lawyers working for him. No sweat.

That would had me gigeling. Stupid MTH guy. We know you work for them and don't want to see your precious company go down the tubes.

[Anonymous]

In all seriousness, why the heck is it no other RR is making a big deal out of this model licencing thing? Perhaps these other RR have bigger fi***o fry, like, maybe concentrating on running a functioning, efficient railroad system? Just a thought.

[Anonymous]

I guess stUPid can't move enough trains (congestion?), lost enough business to BNSF, etc. Hey, they gotta find some way to make some money. Maybe they will put all these hundreds of dollars they make off model RR manufacts to use by paying for another study on how to efficiently run switching yards. Or maybe not.

[Anonymous]

Its not so much the money that bothers me. CSX has a licencing policy. But they aren't {dougnut} holes with it. But the invasion of privacy. Why does Union Pacific need to know things like business strategies for Union Pacific models, including marketing budgets, manufacturing details, distribution channels, and sales goals. Its not like Union Pacific is on the board of MTH, Athearn, Lionel or even Walthers for that matter.

It is reassuring to know that the thing to do is just sit on our duff and let our rights slowly be stripped away one by one. How long is it going to be before UP goes through the list of model railroader subscribers and suppenas a list from everyone of models of any and all Union Pacific and absorbed roads locomotives and rolling stock we may have. Demands a detailed description of how these models are being used in operating your model railroad, and demands a track plan of your layout so they can insure that your depiction of their railroad and its operations is in line with corporate policy. And I am sure that by the time they do this, They will have trade marked and copywrited their entire right of way and you will have to pay a licence and maybe an ongoing royalty to depict Union Pacific Operations on your layout.

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE
Student of Big Sky Blue,Your comment can be taken as a terroristic threat to do harm and you could be arrested on Federal charages...Think twice before typing threats.

"before I start" are the operative words there.

And as for being a terroristic threat, I don't care. This country is so messed up in how it does things anymore I am strongly considering leaving it. Glad to know that if you make more than 30 million dollars a year. You are well taken care of by the powers that be. The common stiffs never were embraced by the republican party, and they have been abandoned by the deomocrats. So whats the point, However make 30 million a year, the democrats will probably consider you common eneugh for them to be at your side. I am sure the that the cost of entry for the republicans is like 60 million because they have to be eletist pigs. But hey its only money right.

So if the FBI show up at my door. (I would assume it would be them since they are the federal law enforcement agency that have offices in this town) I will go quietly eneugh. But not to worry. I am sure me and bubba and me will be the two best lovers the world has ever seen. Hell Maybe me and bubba can make a cardboard model railroad in our cell complete with rubberband powered locomotives. If I am really lucky maybe I can sneak in some real model trains from the "outside" Or convice the warden to start a prison model railroad club.

But all I want to do is remain a private citizen. Guess I need to make 100 million a year for that.

Disgruntledly yours,

James

[rrgrassi]

Just quit buying anything that is related to UP and it's fallen flags that it swallowed up.

Actually, the model makers stand to make more money on this than UP. The makers should have actually eaten the cost as part of doing business. I understand the licensing thing. I just think that Companies should not charge for licensing unless it is a manufactured item that they hold a patent on.

[davekelly]

But will the UP lawyers be able to get to court without using 1mph speed control of their cars? Hmmmmmmmmm.

[BRAKIE]

Only a child would post a poll over something they have absolutely no control over.UP is well within its rights to protect the its Corporate imagine.Ask any first year law student.


Student of Big Sky Blue,Your comment:
==============================

"Something Needs to be done before I start considering assassanation as a viable option. (Yes I am that angry over this. ) "
=================================
can be taken as a terroristic threat to do harm and you could be arrested on Federal charages...Think twice before typing threats.

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

Mr. Wolf has a team of very skilled and first class lawyers working for him. No sweat.

Sorry but as big as your boss's ego is, UP has much deeper pockets, more lawyers, and probably better ones at that.. The kind of savage lawyers that'll slap mth's around the courtroom just for the fun of it.. The licensing requirements have been known for years and apparantly your boss chose to ignore them. As someone stated earlier, a few hours of legal time will cost UP far more money than they'll ever gain from us train nuts. They've been in business well over 100 years and I don't think they're going anywhere anytime soon.. MTH is but a very tiny player in the business world scheme of things. Think what you like about UP but my money is on them in this matter..

Jeff

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Antonio,

Come on. Be real. Knowing the facts and doing one's homework for saying anything takes all the fun away.

Let's start some less hostile threads. How about "which DCC system is best?" or "what is art?" or "which religeon produces the best model railroaders?" You know, something non controversal.

Dave, LOL, I hear ya![:P][:P][X-)][(-D][(-D]

[bcammack]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

With MTH being the premier model railroading company, UP doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell beating them. Mr. Wolf has a team of very skilled and first class lawyers working for him. No sweat.

What color is the sky where you live? I can't see it from where I live.

Unless you are engaging in hyperbole, in which case I must salute your efforts.

[Anonymous]

i think some of you guys might have your pannies in a twist here! nobody needs to be shot, that's ridiculous to even mention.

if an occasional 5 bucks is breaking you hobby budget, it sounds like you might be in the wrong hobby!

[germanium]

How much antagonism do the antics of certain PR departments create against the company that employs them ?? A relaxed attitude of "please acknowledge in your products that this logo is copyright of the ABC corporation" might well in the long run generate more goodwill (and probably business) than a corporate gorilla firing off letters demanding payment for use of such logo.
(I refer of course to the disposition of said individuals - gorillas are too intelligent to work in PR departments).

[davekelly]

Do we know it was the attorneys' proposal? Or was it management? The finance guys? Heck it might even had been the public relations guys ("hey I was reading this model railroading forum and this guy bought a UP painted Bachmann diesel and everyone said it was junk - we gotta stop people from calling us "junk"").

[jondrd]

No argument, UP (whether stUPid or not) has the right to protect its logo and trademarks. The issue I believe is how you go about doing it. UP indicates pennies/model, how does this translate into speculated cost of $5-$10/model? This MSRP speculation may be unfounded; only watching manufacturers offerings will determine the impact.

[soapbox] My opinion, UP should have had public relations unit sit in on management's discussions about UP attorneys proposal. Outcome might have resulted in a less ogre like perception of UP by the modeling community.

lotus098's point about unauthorized useage of NASCAR logo/trademarks is well made. [tup] I believe NASCAR's reaction would have been nuclear in comparison to what UP has done.

Jon

[davekelly]

Antonio,

Come on. Be real. Knowing the facts and doing one's homework for saying anything takes all the fun away.

Let's start some less hostile threads. How about "which DCC system is best?" or "what is art?" or "which religeon produces the best model railroaders?" You know, something non controversal.

[vsmith]

repeated from Trains.com forum....

This is why my model RR is freelanced.
No license fees to worry about.

Unfortunatly even though Uncle Pete has been quite the A-hole about all this, they are legally entitled to this licensing fee of thier logo and paint scheme whether we like it or not. The same thing has been happening to model airplanes, where aircraft companies are now demanding a pretty penny for the privilage to build a model of a fighter jet. It has nothing to do with the fact that they already made millions from the government contract. Its all about the principle of the matter and about sqweezing all the blood they can out of the turnip, in other words, simple greed.

So now you choice is simple, pay extra, or dont buy it. MTH is going to lose, and UP will end up looking like a lumbering behemoth stomping on anything that offends its eye, but they wont care, why should they?Arent they are in business to make money, not friends, not fans. With continued lawsuits againts model makers and calender printers, ever wonder why less and less people like UP?

[AntonioFP45]

O.K, amigos...

I do respect your opinons. But I see I'm making no headway. Hopefully those of you in high school or college take an economics course so you can see how our complex system truly functions.

I'm not a UP fan, but I suggested that you look at the situation realistically.

Oh, by the way............in case you didn't know.......UP has a MAJOR impact on our economy...estimated in the billions of dollars. There's a chance that the building materials of your house or apartment, your television or stereo, or the nice looking clothes that you're wearing......may have traveled over UP rails before making it to the store or warehouse your items came from.

So again, amigos, if you really wi***o be taken seriously........read and do your research first. Otherwise, as my old boss at the transit company used to say to me, "Tony, think before you shoot your mouth off or people in positions of authority will just think of you as a WHINY LITTLE WUSS!"

Made me mad enough to chew nails...but as I matured I saw that he was so accurate!!

MTH Rules. Let's hope you're right, but again based on the info already available from UP's licensing program....the odds are not good as AThearn found out.

[Anonymous]

With MTH being the premier model railroading company, UP doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell beating them. Mr. Wolf has a team of very skilled and first class lawyers working for him. No sweat.

[slotracer]

How many times has this been re-hashed. I agree they have the right but RR's have never done this in the paast, some things are just plain wrong and what UP is doing is wrong especially concerning fallen flags they gobbled up.
Threre are 2 easy solututions to this, either one is a vote to tell the Ussually parked to go and pound sand where the sun doesn't shine.
The first one is to not model UP, ignore them, they don't exist.
The second one is to buy older equipment off ebay and shows, get undecorated and paint the stuff yourself, get your decals and scan them and run your own copies and deprive UP that way if you can't resist the devil of all railroads.
I have news for you, this matter is only an indicator of how UP treats their employees, their vendors, and thier customers. If it gives anyone any satisfaction we just finished switching 350 carloads a year to truck from Uncle Pete in December and I am in the process right now of taking 200 carloads of other business from tehm due to their rate practices, poor service and how they handle customers at almost every level.

[waltersrails]

no dewt.

[icmr]

Thx waltersrails.



Victor

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[icmr]

I do not plan on ever buying a stUPid UP diesel so I know it wont hurt me. I despise UP. Lets all say it together, UP is a Class Crap railroad.



Victor

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[waltersrails]

i agree icmr

[waltersrails]

UP needs to get over themselfs.

[AntonioFP45]

Question:

What would a lawsuit against UP be based on? What is the legal basis for the lititgation.

For a group to be taken seriously, first the homework must be done........and in a case like this it's lengthy and expensive. A good lawyer would have to find one or more legal precendents already established in the past to have a mouse whisker of a chance to even bring this to court.

Don't forget that before 1950, many companies didn't protect their trademarks or logos, yet today just about all of them do. So the argument of past practice may not be solid enough.

Guys, don't forget that nearly all of the scale model car kits today are officially licensed. We saw last year how GM is even more vigorous than Union Pacific with their trademarks. The only way some companies "get around" this is by producing "similar but not exact" models (like certain hot wheels and matchbox cars in the past).

So asking the question above "Who side are you on?" is not realistic.

It seems that we're all in agreement that we don't like UP's policy, but legally they're on solid ground and have today's laws regarding trademark to back them up. Even the owner of my LHS, as much as he dislikes UP, understands that there's not much that's going to change.

In reading the actual facts of UP's requirements, while more than CSX, UP's licensing won't railse model locomotive prices by $10 at all, but on average $2.00 to $5.00 or the cost of a pack of Kadee couplers! Freight cars then would be even less. So, on my tight budget, that's sure's not going to hurt me much if I ever wi***o purchase an HO UP diesel.

Model manufacturers or LHS's on the other hand can pad that price up more and easily blame it on UP. I'm not sticking up for Uncle Pete, but stating that we need to read the facts carefully.

BTW: It's great to read that BNSF has excellent PR still. Hopefully in a few years, Union Pacific's current leadership team members will "move on" to other careers or retirement and the next team will be more like BNSF. Ironically what may happen is that BNSF's future managment team may be as tough as the current UP group.