The Forum CONSTRUCTIVE Critisism Thread

[grandeman]

I posted this in another thread, but wanted to get it out on it's own for member opinions. Guys, please keep it constructive. This is a great forum and Kalmbach is THE model railroad info company. With a few changes though, this forum could improve by leaps and bounds.

While I'm thankful for this forum, it needs some changes. The last time I made these statements, the thread was gone the next morning. [V] There's your moderation. Here's the problems I see. I'm posting them out of genuine concern for the forum in a constructive way.

1. lack of moderation
2. poor format
3. Ineffective search feature
4. outdated software

There's reasons for the lack of moderation. Kalmbach can't pay people to sit around on the forum all day and they can't "turn the reins" over to outside volunteers because of company concerns. Are there any answers to this?

Poor format and ineffective search feature are the main problems. The layout here doesn't present an orderly place to put posts. Legit MR posts get buried under the fluff and there's no reasonable search function for someone needing the info to find it at a later date. "General" isn't a good heading for specific MR topics, IMHO. These are reasons I now will only copy posts done for another forum. The problems listed create a situation where it just isn't worth the effort to write a post, take pics, upload them, etc since the post will be gone in a flash and someone needing the info at a later date is out of luck

Here's a few examples... I certainly don't mean to imply that my posts are of any particular value, but they do take time and effort to put together. There are MANY good, informative posts done by others here that are subject to the same fate.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=45651

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48247

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=49214

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51410

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=53355

As for outdated software, that's easy enough to fix too. Can you say vBulletin 3.5.1? [:)]

[SpaceMouse]

There are a couple things I want to say about this post.

1) I'm grateful this forum exisits.

2) It is what it is.

3) Can it be improved? Yes, but see 1 & 2 above.

[grandeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

There are a couple things I want to say about this post.

1) I'g grateful this forum exisits.

2) It is what it is.

3) Can it be improved, yes but see 1 & 2 above.

We are in agreement, but there's some things "dragging it down". They would be easy changes to make... Think about it.

[Roadtrp]

I like it as it is... the good, the bad and the ugly. What seems like an improvement to you might seem like a step back to someone else. The forum is successful as it stands. Why mess with success??

P.S. The surest way to kill ANY bulletin board is over-moderation.

[grandeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp
The surest way to kill ANY bulletin board is over-moderation.

Well, no one's talking about over moderation... [:)]

[selector]

I agree that a bit more authoritative moderation couldn't hurt. We might even get away with a burst of it to get the culture tweaked, and then let it fall back to a couple half-days a week for "maintenance" purposes. Engines get tuneups, and this forum is an engine of sorts.

[howmus]

I guess I second Chips statement. I think the forum is great just the way it is. I have been to many forums (Yahoo, and others) where it is very difficult to navigate, the threads are not available to see without some intense searching, and don't think the search engine (while it could be improved) is any worse than what I find on many sites. I guess I worry that they will "improve" the site in ways that would make it less friendly.... I'm not at all sure that it is that broken? We get a lot of posts here in the General Forum that really should be posted on the Layouts and Layout building forum. That said, most everyone hangs around here so....?

[grandeman]

Folks, I've been surfing the forum a good bit this morning. I'm amazed at the lack of civility in some of the threads. People have disagreements, but there's an underlying tone of strife going on. What happened to the model railroad magic that used to be a common thread amoung members?

Personally, I can't help but feel like the lack of oversight is breeding a wild west mentality. Honestly, there's a few troublemakers here that are causing alot of the problems. They need to be corralled...

[edo1039]

Grande man, I concur with you.

[cmrproducts]

As much as I don’t want to get into this, this forum is a general discussion forum.

If you want to have a more specialized type then there are many other forums to visit and post on. I also visit them and they are usually dead in comparison to this one. (Atlas is one – and they use the excuse that they are better quality)

And besides those that post here and on other forums that do write informative topics does any really listen to them? One is the subject of track cleaning. Everyone’s way is the best but yet they still complain about having to do it.

When a solution is found it is just passed off as so much bull.

Would that be any better on a specialized forum, NOPE!

Viewers read this forum to see what everyone is talking about. They are not reading it to learn new ways of doing modeling. Yes they read it but do they REALLY use the info to make changes in their layouts? Some do but the vast majority do not!

And how do I know this? Because every week at out Club meeting we go over some of the questions and ANSWERS!? That are presented and just wonder if the person that posted the question really got anything out of it. Too many totally opposing views/solutions that may or may not work.

And who are we to make judgment on these responses (which most of the Club members have just quit making replies to the forums). With a total of 350 years of modeling experience one would thing that we may have learned a few things. Now we will never say we know it all or even a little bit but, when some of these ideas/answers are presented to a NuBe we can just see them failing and leaving the hobby due to totally opposite answers in the same posting group.

Just one persons view!

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[grandeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts


If you want to have a more specialized type then there are many other forums to visit and post on. I also visit them andthey are usually dead in comparison to this one. (Atlas is one – and they use the excuse that they are better quality)

That's why this forum is so important to our hobby. Kalmbach's name recongnition makes this a sort of "gateway" to the hobby for many new folks. That's important. I can't imagine why they would want to have to dig thru 500 pages of catfighting, worthless polls, etc to find the info they're looking for. The forums could be categorized MUCH better to hold info at or near the top longer and make it easier to find. If I'm new to DCC, for example, a dedicated forum would be the place to go...

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts
And besides those that post here and on other forums that do write informative topics does any really listen to them? One is the subject of track cleaning. Everyone’s way is the best but yet they still complain about having to do it.

When a solution is found it is just passed off as so much bull.

Would that be any better on a specialized forum, NOPE!

Viewers read this forum to see what everyone is talking about. They are not reading it to learn new ways of doing modeling. Yes they read it but do they REALLY use the info to make changes in their layouts? Some do but the vast majority do not!

I've learned much from online forums. I'd like to hope this isn't all fluff. If it is, we're wasting our time.

Personally, I think forums are a valuable source of info. Look at Joe Fugate's clinics, for example.

There's usually many different ways of tackling a given problem. That's one reason all the opinions on how to accomplish a given task are important. Each member gets to decide which (or which parts of several) techniques best suit them.

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: And how do I know this? Because every week at out Club meeting we go over some of the questions and ANSWERS!? That are presented and just wonder if the person that posted the question really got anything out of it. Too many totally opposing views/solutions that may or may not work.

I'd be willing to bet, that even in your club, no matter what ideas or solutions are put forth, there is somebody there who is going to basically crap on it. There are a few like that on this forum, with never anything positive to say but always insisting thier point is the correct and only one.

QUOTE: And besides those that post here and on other forums that do write informative topics does any really listen to them? One is the subject of track cleaning. Everyone’s way is the best but yet they still complain about having to do it.

When a solution is found it is just passed off as so much bull.

I can tell you that Some people get something out of it.. Skeptical at times? yes.. Willing to try it out? Yes.

QUOTE: they do take time and effort to put together. There are MANY good, informative posts done by others here that are subject to the same fate.

That's why I don't go to the trouble anymore.. Not within the forums anyway.. Instead, I host the clinic method on my own website and simply post a link when someone has a question I think it may answer.. I accepted my second active day here that in the general discussion area anyway, the threads that ask for and receive information are quickly pushed down into the never never land of page 3 and beyond. The building layout forum however is a little more the nuts and bolts of it and from what I've seen, questions Do get answered there.

They can change it if they like, leave it the way it is if they choose, or just simply shut it down.. While I wouldn't like the third option, I would just do something else with my time (but I wouldn't have learned that nifty way to clean my track [:D])

My [2c]

Jeff

[talon104]

i know i made the suggestion that grande man made about : The forums could be categorized MUCH better to hold info at or near the top longer and make it easier to find. If I'm new to DCC, for example, a dedicated forum would be the place to go... in another thread but i guess it was overlooked?
So with that said i'll say this again , all you guys that have been here a long time and have repeated ( probably) this exact post started before ; get together and try to find a commone goal, ask for peoples input on this forum ,and get ahold of the people that can make a difference.
I personally like the forum , there could be changes to make it better ,but it isnt bad like it is . this is my story and i'm sticking to it
Chris

[grandeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman

That's why I don't go to the trouble anymore.. Not within the forums anyway..

Jeff, that's my point exactly! Wouldn't it be great if experienced modelers felt like it was worthwhile to post technique here? It could easily be made into just such a place.

Honestly, my home forum is elsewhere due to the problems listed. I do think this is an IMPORTANT forum due to Kalmbach's popularity. That's why I even bothered to post such a topic in the first place. I hope someone at Kalmbach will realize the importance of web based MR info and not see this as a slam, but rather, the concerns of a fellow model railroader (and consumer of many of their products over the years).

[MAbruce]

OK, as I’m on a BIG roll today on this issue, you didn’t think I’d let this topic go by without reply? [;)][:D][:D]

No forum is perfect. It can always be improved. But there is one truth that I have been trying to covey today. This forum is owned by MR (or Kalmbach), and they pay for it thus get to set the rules. They also assign the moderator(s). It’s up to these moderator(s) how stringently they want to enforce the rules, or how and when they will intervene. That means it’s not up to the members here to “self-moderate”. We’ve been told by Bergie many times before that if we see something wrong, email him. He will determine the best course of action.

Now Grande man has started this topic with a number of good observations and suggestions. Have these been emailed these to Bergie? Considering what he said before, that would be one good way to get his attention. In fact, all those who agree with these should also email Bergie. Maybe if he receives enough emails he’ll do something.

Oh, and maybe if enough of you email Bergie about my last tirade - I'll get banned? [:D][:D]

Now, that didn’t cause too much trouble here – did it? [;)]

[grandeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MAbruce

Now Grande man has started this topic with a number of good observations and suggestions. Have these been emailed these to Bergie? Considering what he said before, that would be one good way to get his attention. In fact, all those who agree with these should also email Bergie. Maybe if he receives enough emails he’ll do something.

I haven't emailed Erik, but I'm sure he'll see this post and the replies.

[talon104]

THROWING MY HANDS UP!![V]
mabruce you add to the input needed in this forum i think .you have your own ideas ,as well as all the other people who have posted to this and the other . Maybeme being a new " rookie " if you will to all this means i havent the right to add anything to this but, i will cause all you guys have added something great to this forum ,this hobby , and to me as a person that tries his best and gets the result because of people like selector, grande man, mabruce, , rolleiman,spacemouse, ( there are too many for me to list) .
A COMMON GOAL WE ALL HAVE IS WHAT?
TRAINS we all enjoy them .
Chris

[ereimer]

more than anything else we need stickies so we can keep the informative threads that answer the questions we get over and over at the top of the first page . i guess that means a newer version of the software or a switch to different software .

QUOTE:
1. lack of moderation
2. poor format
3. Ineffective search feature
4. outdated software

1. we probably need slightly more moderation than we have now , some people do get a bit argumentative
2. solveable with new software
3. solveable with new software especially if it includes stickies
4. redundant

[SpaceMouse]

While I made my numbered posts above, I would have to say that there many things about this forum that can be changed for the better. I also believe that Kalmbach knows these things but for their own reasons have been unable (read have higher priorities) to make these changes.

[gvdobler]

I agree the search function could use some improvement, or I just can't quite figure it out.

There are already other catagories, but General gets the posts because that seems to be where people want to be. How many should we have? Couplers, power packs, track, boxcars, benchwork, clubs, etc............Any further "catagorization" would only make it harder to search

The software seems to work fine. Everyone has a favorite, but other forums I belong to don't seem to work as well as this one.

Maybe we should assess every member a fee and buy the rights from MRR and then charge monthly dues and run it ourselves. As the membership dwindles our monthly dues will go up until the remaining four members can no longer afford to keep it running. Then we can politely ask MRR to take it back and run it for....

free

.

As far as more moderation goes, "be careful what you wish for, .........."

[Anonymous]

I for one have learned a tremedous amount of information from this forum. I'm faily new to the hobby and this has been an invaluable rescource for me as well as many other newbees I'm sure. I like the way the forum is and the freedom that comes with it. I havent noticed much bickering amongst the users but I think everyone is entitled to there opinion and if someone doesnt like how a post is going or what direction its goin in then this is a free country and its your choice not to view it or read it.

Steve

[talon104]

good point gvdobler

[jfugate]

I agree with Grande Man's basic sentiments about this forum. I've addressed the outdated software issue in some discussions I've had with MR and from what I've heard, they working on the issue. However, things sometimes move more slowly than we might like in a company with 300 employees.

I also agree with those say that as the forum stands now, it's a general discussion forum. Tis true. That's why I've stopped putting much effort into my forum clinics because the general discussion format isn't really very condusive to building a library of online how-to content.

There is a Q&A section on here for modeling questions and answers, but hardly anyone frequents the place. Reality is if you want more eyes to see your question, then you go to the general discussion section and post the question there. You usually get answers posted within the hour, and surely before the day is out. If you post the same question over in the Q&A section, it can go for days before getting a single response.

Now there are ways, with more up-to-date forum software, to have our cake and eat it to. There can be lots of topics sorted into great categories, and you can select "what's new" and you get essentially the general discussion index page with all the posts listed. Or if you want to see how that scenery thread is doing, you can go to the scenery topic and see, since it will be right there ... not 8 pages back because of all the "what's your favorite loco?" polls being posted.

So I believe MR is moving to address the outdated software issue, but I believe they also aren't taking a "knee-jerk" reaction but doing some serious future planning with the idea that a complete, well planned overhaul will better serve their readers than some quick hack upgrade.

[cmrproducts]

The problem I have seen with the many category forum is that when I go there to view what is new I have to keep jumping back and forth to get to the next category. Being that I am still on dial-up (and I wish I could get DSL – but live far enough back that they just got finished with piping in sunlight) it is not so much fun.

Having the general forum allows me to see what is new and I always will go back to where I left off 1 or 2 days back (only because there are many good topics still there)(yes that is the problem with an active forum). Now some of the other forums I visit they have not had a new posting in my category for years!

But on the general forum I get to see a wide range of topics and pick-and-choose the ones I want to respond to. Where I would have to wade through endless categories and maybe stumble upon one I might want to respond to. And I might jump over categories that may not sound interesting and miss a really good discussion!

Opposing views – Now at the Club the members that have opposing views are ask why they think their method is better. Then the members, either individually or collectively evaluate the idea and decide if it is usable. We have used many ideas and also have demonstrated to those having totally opposed views of the general membership why our idea may work better. Most get to see why this idea may be better firs hand on the Club or home layouts in the area.

Now on the forum, the responders do not get to talk one-on-one or to see first hand why and idea is better. They have to take the idea at face value and miss an important step that the presenter may have missed in the explanation. Now the idea is dismissed as being no good, when in fact the missed part was critical to the whole project.

As for me with responding to questions (either new or repeats) I will keep on trying to give as accurate info as I can. The one big difference is that I have the 350 years of club member experience to back me up and IF we have not run into this problem I WILL take the time to figure it out! Why? Because I will learn from it. I have always been that when I ran my own Auto Engine Rebuilding Machine Shop I ran into some of the wildest problems known to man (and some that weren’t).

I have a big enough layout that I will probably run into and will have solved more problems than most modelers will run into in two lifetimes. Unfortunally trying to give out this info without coming on like I am bragging is very hard to do!

Now I have begun to ask the Club membership to come up with ideas on problems I have yet to find answers to! It is an interesting discussion that develops. They throw out an idea and I come back with what I have done like that and we see if we can get around the problem with the idea.

Just another view

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by talon104

THROWING MY HANDS UP!![V]
mabruce you add to the input needed in this forum i think .you have your own ideas ,as well as all the other people who have posted to this and the other . Maybeme being a new " rookie " if you will to all this means i havent the right to add anything to this but, i will cause all you guys have added something great to this forum ,this hobby , and to me as a person that tries his best and gets the result because of people like selector, grande man, mabruce, , rolleiman,spacemouse, ( there are too many for me to list) .
A COMMON GOAL WE ALL HAVE IS WHAT?
TRAINS we all enjoy them .
Chris

Hey Chris,

I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying here, so if I’m off please bear with me. I don’t like to see anyone throw their hands up – especially over a hobby forum. Just because you’re a “rookie” doesn’t mean you don’t have a right to share or state your opinion. Post count or years as a member should not give anyone a special rank here. If I came off like this, then I apologize.

All of us have trains as a common goal, but we’re going to have different ideas and notions within that common goal. The way I see it sometimes this diversity can be complimentary, and sometimes it just causes friction (just like everything else in life). I may not agree with some members all the time, and we may even spar, but I don’t hate them for it.

My approach to this issue is that we must respect the powers that run (and pay for) this forum. We can certainly suggest changes, but are really not in any position to demand them. Based on a recent (unrelated) post from Bergie (the moderator), he said that if we thought he needed to see something, it’s best to email him as he won’t be able to monitor every topic. That tells me that a topic like this full of good suggestions may get missed by the one person we’re try to get to read it. Maybe not.

[grandeman]

Joe, thanks for the info. I'm glad to hear the ball is rolling toward a better online future for Kalmbach. That will be a GREAT advancement for our hobby. I'm glad to hear that the constructive comments aren't falling on deaf ears.

Guys, when experienced modelers (like Joe) aren't posting how-to's because of the outlined issues, we all lose. It's good to know positive changes are coming.

For you folks afraid of forum moderation, it can be done in a constructive way. Only the troublemakers need to worry if it's done correctly.

Right now, we could use a Wyatt Earp moderaton style to clean up the wild west and set the standard for the future. This should be a safe place for a kid that's interested in model trains to come and learn new things to enjoy the hobby.

[talon104]

thought that might get someone attention MAbruce[:D] I think it's great and all you guys have great points; like the one that you just made to me. This is all true , i think the common goal should be met here and if this is something that everyone agrees needs to be made then maybe enough people can make the difference [:p] I appreciate the remarks made to me and hope that my little inputs doesnt by any mean offend anyone or make them less apt to help out the ones in need here.
All of your knowledge that many of you guys have is remarkable ,and sharing that knowledge with people like me who are just starting in this hobby makes it last a lifetime. I try to make suggestion where i think i can and if it makes a difference then great , if not i know i tried [:)]
Thanks for all you guys and remember with out all of you there wouldnt be people like me . If there wasnt people like me then i guess there would be a hobby after your all gone.[:p]
( something to think about when you see the newbie post )

MAbruce, - you give character to this forum and you have your opinions is what i was trying to say , The intent was to try and get everyone on the same page ,make suggestion, then everyone try to figure out how to impliment them.
THanks for your interest in what i have to say MAbruce
respectfully
Chris

[loathar]

grande man- I really enjoy your how to clinics. Keep em coming.
(Is it you that does the loco reveiws?) If so, It ticks me off to see you go through the trouble that you do, and then some Atlas or Kato fan comes along with a helpful reply like "Athearns suck!" (or visa versa on the brands, you know what I mean).
Makes me wish I could reach through the screen and smack some body once in a while.

[talon104]

take a breath loathar BREATH[:D][:D]

[fwright]

While the forum software could stand improvement, we as a group can do a LOT to help ourselves.

1) use detailed, accurate subject lines. Generic "noob needs help" or "look what I found", and other "teaser" subjects slow me down significantly in determining what to read and not read. I have some expertise in the area of wiring, things electrical, and laying track, and I model 1900 era Pacific Northwest. So I'm not much help with, nor am I particularly interested in, the merits of Athearn vs Bachmann diesels. If I encounter too many mis-labeled subjects, I conclude I'm wasting my time today and go away. Improved subject lines will also help the search engine significantly.

2) Before posting a reply to a question or a problem, read and UNDERSTAND the question being asked. How many threads go on and on without responding to the question being asked? Again, a waste of bandwidth and time for the forum readers.

3) ties in with #2. If you can't make a meaningful contribution, don't post a reply. My hackles get raised by people answering wiring questions with misinformation and "untruths". No wonder folks get discouraged about asking questions. They get all kinds of answers, half of which will lead the questioner down the wrong path.

4) also ties in with #2 and #3. Back up your opinion with reasons and facts. Saying something or a brand is "crap" without any substantiation is another waste of bandwidth and readers' time.

5) Spelling and puctuation count (I'm guilty of problems in this area). It is far more difficult and time-consuming to read and understand posts that are plenty of mis-spellings, typos, lack of capitalization, etc. Hopefully, the forum software upgrade would offer a spell checker for the reply box, and in an ideal world would incorporate a limited grammar check. In the meantime, I need to do a better job of proof-reading my posts before hitting the "submit" button.

I believe the idea of maintaining informational clinics on independent web pages and giving a link is a great interim solution, but so far I've been too lazy to construct my web site (that I need to do for reasons other than model railroading anyway).

I am grateful for the forums, and I thank Kalmbach for sponsoring it. Since I am relocating in a few months, my physical modeling is suspended for the time being. These forums allow me to continue to stay active in the hobby in the meantime, thanks to all of you. I think with a little effort on the part of us users, it can be an even batter place to share our hobby.

yours in training
Fred Wright