The Forum CONSTRUCTIVE Critisism Thread

[Anonymous]

MAbruce - I saw a post here of yours, that showed your layout. your background artwork (sky, clouds, mountains, more mountains in the distance) were all GREAT!

any chance of seeing a tutorial on that? or a chance to see more photos? maybe one that you have created already, that you can provide a link to?

thanks.

[talon104]

I think everyone has great ideas here , and MAbruce has some good points ,a better search engine, messages ,etc. one thing about the messaging thing is if a person has more questinos about a topic that was answered by someone then he can get a better elaberation ( SP ?) on the topic from that person rather than post a dozen time to get the answer.
Going to the different forum issue most everyone in here i have noticed toggle between either this forum or the layout one so , it might just be where everyone ends up when they post ?
My contiuned voice is that maybe there should be a poll here what people would like to see( within reason) like most of us that have already posted here in this thread. tally it up . the good and bad. then maybe make the introduction to the higher up's about it?
C.C.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by n2mopac


I, like many others, have truly enjoyed the clinics posted by Joe Fugate and others. As expressed above, I think I would benefit from a separate category for such substantive threads and one for real questions and answers posted by and responded to by those who truly need help or have good help to offer about modeling solutions. Nothing frustrates me more--for myself and others as well--than to see a question raised and one or two (sometimes none) responses offered.

It would seem that the solution to this problem already exists -- the "Layouts and Layout Building" forum. People don't post there though because there is not much activity. Why not? Because most people rather enjoy the free-wheeling nature of the General Discussion forum and prefer to post here.

If those of you looking for serious model railroading instruction and discussion would start posting in the Layouts forum perhaps more traffic would be generated. But any attempt to suppress the exact thing which has made the General forum so successful would be shortsighted and foolish IMHO.

[soapbox]

[IRONROOSTER]

Seems to me the problem is really the great success of this forum. While I have looked in on a couple of other forums, none have interested me enough to join. This one has lots of members who post fairly regularly, hence the "push it off page 1" problem. Also, I notice that a number of folks who talk about other forums seem to hang out here a lot which seems to suggest that this must be the best forum in it's current state.

I agree that a better search capability would be helpful, but otherwise I would leave the forum alone. The only thing you're guarenteed if you change it, is that it'll be different.

Enjoy
Paul

[n2mopac]

I have generally enjoyed these forums as I have been a member almost since the day trains.com began. I have found myself truly READING the forums less and less over the past several months, however, and responding even less often. I read through the titles under "Active Topics" once or twice a week and read a topic or two. Why this change when I once was quite active. Lack of helpful content.

I, like many others, have truly enjoyed the clinics posted by Joe Fugate and others. As expressed above, I think I would benefit from a separate category for such substantive threads and one for real questions and answers posted by and responded to by those who truly need help or have good help to offer about modeling solutions. Nothing frustrates me more--for myself and others as well--than to see a question raised and one or two (sometimes none) responses offered.

I am not trying to be critical of this site. I know many enjoy the content as it is--a model railroad community--and that is fine. I would probably enjoy that too if I had more time to read the large number of posts. I believe there has to be a way to offer what is needed to those who desire more hard content as well. That is my [2c]

Ron

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

Most of the "How -to" threads everyone is moaning about being buried really belong over in the "Layouts and Layout Building" forum anyway. They wouldn't get pushed down nearly so fast over there. Adding a bunch of other categories wouldn't help since obviously people ignore the categories and post almost everything here anyway.

[#ditto]

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by grande man

Guys, when experienced modelers (like Joe) aren't posting how-to's because of the outlined issues, we all lose. It's good to know positive changes are coming.

Something regarding this and many other points, that is continually overlooked, is the fact that Kalmbach is in business to make a profit and a large part of that comes from selling their ever expanding line of How To books. Posting a host of How To, stickie, or permanent, clinics on-line would certainly not be in their best financial interest. In fact, I think they would consider it a very poor idea indeed.

CNJ:

I see what you are driving at, but there's also a point where you can keep things so tight to the vest that you lose people.

I happen to subscribe to the concept that sharing your ideas will act like nectar to bees and draw people in. There's no better marketing, I think, than sharing the actual goods with people.

I try to live that myself -- my Scenery Forum Clinic that's on here, for example, has most of the content that's going into my upcoming Scenery DVD. But I don't worry about that, since my primary goal is to get the information out, and if I make a few bucks along the way, then we all benefit.

Share your info and they will come, is my philosophy. Being too close fisted is a good way to tell the world that you're basically mercenary and in it just for the money. So I think it's in MR's best interest to have *more* free how-to content available online in their forums and elsewhere. Everything doesn't need to be free, but some of it should be.

(Plus, this site has banner ads, which means things that draw people drive up hit statistics and the rate you can charge for ads, so there's a bottom line benefit of more free material online for the MBA's in the crowd.)

[jwar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by grande man

Guys, when experienced modelers (like Joe) aren't posting how-to's because of the outlined issues, we all lose. It's good to know positive changes are coming.

Something regarding this and many other points, that is continually overlooked, is the fact that Kalmbach is in business to make a profit and a large part of that comes from selling their ever expanding line of How To books. Posting a host of How To, stickie, or permanent, clinics on-line would certainly not be in their best financial interest. In fact, I think they would consider it a very poor idea indeed.

In considering any advice/suggestions to Bergie/MR/Kalmbach, try to keep in mind how your suggestions might impact the company. Many of the suggestions made here have been harmless and could be easily implemented (dropping those stupid stars, for instance!). However, a number of the more complex, time consuming, expensive suggestions, or those harmful to the company's business, would make me consider pulling the plug rather than to institute them if I were in their place. So, employ a little more careful thought toward the company's interests before asking for all manner of changes. What we have here is a gift, not a right.

CNJ831

Your are right, do enjoy it very much, such as it is

[Pruitt]

Most of the "How -to" threads everyone is moaning about being buried really belong over in the "Layouts and Layout Building" forum anyway. They wouldn't get pushed down nearly so fast over there. Adding a bunch of other categories wouldn't help since obviously people ignore the categories and post almost everything here anyway.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grande man

Guys, when experienced modelers (like Joe) aren't posting how-to's because of the outlined issues, we all lose. It's good to know positive changes are coming.

Something regarding this and many other points, that is continually overlooked, is the fact that Kalmbach is in business to make a profit and a large part of that comes from selling their ever expanding line of How To books. Posting a host of How To, stickie, or permanent, clinics on-line would certainly not be in their best financial interest. In fact, I think they would consider it a very poor idea indeed.

In considering any advice/suggestions to Bergie/MR/Kalmbach, try to keep in mind how your suggestions might impact the company. Many of the suggestions made here have been harmless and could be easily implemented (dropping those stupid stars, for instance!). However, a number of the more complex, time consuming, expensive suggestions, or those harmful to the company's business, would make me consider pulling the plug rather than to institute them if I were in their place. So, employ a little more careful thought toward the company's interests before asking for all manner of changes. What we have here is a gift, not a right.

CNJ831

[Adelie]

One of the better forums I belong to in terms of how it operates has no censorship at all. Anybody can include any word they choose or even any image. It is sports related, so I can guarantee there are posts with words people would find objectionable, but not to the extent you might envision. Once the novelty is gone, people seem to settle in. Peer pressure seems to be a wonderful thing.

What that forum does not tolerate is personal attacks, threats, trouble-making (trolls) and the like. Not only do the moderators not put up with them, neither does the membership. Their goal is to be a place where sports fans (particularly football) can go for sports-related discussions, much like one would have over a beer with some friends. They do have a "report post" button and they do post an individual's post count, although there are no stars or any rank associated with it. It is simply a small number under the person's username.

I have seen people tossed off by moderators, although it is rare. One even signed up a second time right after being tossed, and was tossed again for doing that (along with a pointed note from the moderator). Mostly, mods move topics that were incorrectly placed in a category to the more appropriate category.

Overall, there seems to be a rapport, almost a maturity, amongst the small membership. That is probably because most of us fled a larger forum to it as a place of refuge.

One other thing they have is a private message system. People can send messages to another's inbox, much like email. I think the limit is somewhere around 105 messages total for an inbox.

I feel for Bergie and Kalmbach in this. If they don't change anything, people will be upset. If they do change something, people will be upset. If they get frustrated and simply shut the thing down as not worth the time and expense, people will be upset.

I wi***he search function worked better here. I wi***he categories were more useful. But I'll roll with the punches since it is not my dime. They are providing me a free service, and a pretty good one considering the price. About the only things that will drive me away are 1) my own disinterest in the hobby, if that day ever comes, 2) over moderation, 3) the forum becoming too off-topic to be considered a model railroad forum. Otherwise, I'm in for the duration.

[MAbruce]

Now that I’ve had a chance to read over the many good suggestions and thought them over, here is what I would suggest:

1. A better search engine.
2. A private messaging system – so people can communicate with each other off line while respecting their privacy (not giving out their email address to the world).
3. A direct link to the forum rules on each page so everyone can easily find them.
4. Remove star ratings and post count. I have no doubt that this has led to posting for the sake of rank.
5. Automatic word (or phrase) censor – if there is such a thing. This would either automatically delete any objectionable language/phrases or prevent a post from being posted until the offending words/phrases are removed.
6. Install a “report post” button on each post so anyone can click on it to alert the moderators about something questionable. I’ve seen this function utilized effectively on other forums.

As far as moderation goes, that’s up to the powers that be. But the only comment I’d make on that is that if you’re going to host a large forum like this, you had better be prepared to put the necessary resources into running it or it will backfire into harmful promotion for your company.

[Fergmiester]

I too am starting to have some concerns as there seems to be a number of good "how to" threads that are either ignored or quickly buried. I've tried using the search function but find it cumbersome.

As this is a General Discussion thread there are a lot of threads that, though they seem frivolous to some, they serve a function to others.

Another problem that has not been discussed is the fact some of us have been here for a considerable period of time and are now finding it repetitve and tiresome as it doesn't seem to change.

I too belong to another forum and though it is a lot slower it has, in my opinion, a better layout only because it has more sub forums.

My only suggestion to help remedy some of the concerns voiced here is to create a "How to" and a "Show Case" Forum.

JUst my opinion

Fergie

[PennsyHoosier]

I appreciate the forum VERY much. Please, no over moderation. This is about the most well-behaved list I am on (of about 25).

If any improvement needs to be made, perhaps it is some new categories. General discussion is just that--GENERAL. Perhaps we could have specific topcs for addressing certain things--scenery, software, DCC--rather than simply lumping everying into a two categories as we have it now.

After all, if there is a topic just for the boxcar, seems we could have a few others as well.

Regards!

[Anonymous]

I think that dumping the stars is one of the best ideas, that could come out of this thread.

[ICRR1964]

jwar, I have to agree with you on the stars being behind members names. In another forum that I am a moderator in we pulled the stars off members post. It set the a bunch of members heads on fire over the star removal, but it all worked out better in the long run. Some of the members we had in this other forum I belong to were posting 10 to 15 times a day pading their post, then it turned into a race to see who be out front all the time, what a mess we had in that forum! After the stars were removed and the smoke cleared all the pointless post dried up and we got back to what our forum was all about.

There are 12 of us who sit on the board of this forum we belong to and vote on all issues that come up and go with the majority, and this works great. One thing we brought in a year ago was "THE BOXING RING" if we had a few members who wanted to argue or cause problems it was sent to that pare of our forum. As me being a moderator and having others as moderators gave us the power to delete a post that was OT or and arguement that was starting, after the deleting, they were told to take it to THE RING. As it stands right now we have over 250 pages of heated rounds and people that want to duke it out. Come June 1st it will be wiped clean and start over, we do this every 6 months.

Moderation would be nice in MR forum, but it would take several people and some fair thinking. Allot of new post are repeats, but I don't care. Even if the question asked a week before and a new member ask the same question a week later, I answer them. There is no point in being rude to them, they need answers like the rest of us.

So the big question is? What do we do? We move on pass over the OT or topics we don't care to answer and move on. There are allot of good questions from members and new people that never hardly get answered, because of the amount of support of threads that have been alive for weeks and have page after page of replies.

The search engine does not work well, a new one would be great for all. Or we could do like we do once a year or so in our forum. Wipe the slate clean once a year, but that could backfire on this forum though.

The best thing we could all do here is keep working together as a team. We are a big team, so we need to respect others and what we all know and don't know.

Model Railroading is all about; running the Dremel tip over your thumb, getting glue off your fingers, spilling paint, laying the soldering iron down then putting your hand on it while its still plugged in, watching your engine and fleet of cars dive to the floor, skipping your mortgage payment to buy that new loco, getting a divorce because your wife does not understand, trying to find parts that are out of production, and the best one of all is falling asleep at the throttle! Its fun isn't?

Lets just work together and do the best we can, thats the thing we need here.

[jwar]

Great topic Grane man and just a tad of my personal openions.

Stickey notes would be great as I will read somthing interesting, then a month or more when Im finnaly at the point of applying it, I cant find the info. I now copy them for future reference.

As to the fluff, perhaps removing the stars would get people back to modeling, as it appears that some are more into a count. The coffee shop thread did a great job of taking a lot into one area, perhaps another could work. I'm guilty of one poll as I asked if a DCC topic would fly.

The clinics are fantastic, Thanks to all who took the time and effort to do so. This forum is very good now, but could, as in anything be improved, if the sponsor feels its needed.

Just my two cents. Take care...John

[grandeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Jeff,

Maybe this fits with what you are saying, but I have given Joe a hearty good job a couple times. However, the purpose of doing such was to bump the thread (N to say that you weren't doing a good job, Joe.) I think that maybe others had the same idea.

However, I had not thought that doing so would mess up the search function.

Chip, no one would need to bump the thread if it had a proper place. [:)]

[Anonymous]

I think the forums could use to be broken down a bit more. How Tos, Narrow gauge, scratchbuilding, electronics, ect. As it is now, they are just all piled in together.

[SpaceMouse]

Jeff,

Maybe this fits with what you are saying, but I have given Joe a hearty good job a couple times. However, the purpose of doing such was to bump the thread (N to say that you weren't doing a good job, Joe.) I think that maybe others had the same idea.

However, I had not thought that doing so would mess up the search function.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman
While I appreciate and respect the talent, skill, and writing of people like Joe Fugate on this forum, I don't think his clinic style, full of "good job" and "me too" posts make it easy to extract the information he is trying to convey. I think they would be Much easier to gleen the information out of if he hosted them on his own website and simply posted a link, to a sticky, where the information can be accessed in a more pure form.

Jeff

I quite agree. That's why the scenery clinic on here now has in its opening post a link to a clean (minimal "me too" or "bump" posts), up-to-date scenery clinic on my own forum:

http://model-trains-video.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=157

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grande man

QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman

That's why I don't go to the trouble anymore.. Not within the forums anyway..

Jeff, that's my point exactly! Wouldn't it be great if experienced modelers felt like it was worthwhile to post technique here? It could easily be made into just such a place.

I don't know what the powers that be are planning with respect to the forums.. If they are planning Anything. I can state, that as just a general place to waste train time, I prefer this one, pretty much as is over some of the others I've visited.. While good information is offered at the others, spending much time there quite frankly is boring to me.. Maybe it's just the size of the memberships but this general discussion forum at the very least, stays interesting.. That's just my personal taste on the matter. To those who think it's slid downhill because of all the 'useless' banter, stop making threads about useless banter and post something you find constructive (not said in reference to you grande man)..

Other than heading off troll attacks, I don't think this forum really needs any heavy moderation either.. A few stickies would make it much simpler to find information, introduce yourself, and just for the grins and giggles of it, complain (I suspect That one would be the most active)..

The couple clinics I've done to date are on my website because I don't want to have to go searching through my 800+ posts to find them again.. They were/are written primarliy in response to numerous questions I see on these forums and think I have a good answer for. While I appreciate and respect the talent, skill, and writing of people like Joe Fugate on this forum, I don't think his clinic style, full of "good job" and "me too" posts make it easy to extract the information he is trying to convey. I think they would be Much easier to gleen the information out of if he hosted them on his own website and simply posted a link, to a sticky, where the information can be accessed in a more pure form. That OR, like youi appear to have done with yours (only read the aspen tree one), start to finish in the initial post but still on the sticky format with a clear title "How To Make Aspen Trees"..

We'll see what the forces that are Kalmbach do in the coming months. I know in the 6 that I've been here, I've seen this request made several times. It usually turns into a pissing match though this one doesn't seem to have yet.. I do suggest that you at least point the thread out to Bergie if you want him to see it and pass it up to his superiors.

Good luck,
Jeff

[talon104]

character i think you might have mis-took in the wrong way ( sorry ) i meant character in a good way as you seem outspoken( when need be) and you seem to have a great sense of humor. That is great and it makes for a interesting post to read .[:)]
Sorry if i misled you into thinking wrongly of my comment.
Chris

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by talon104
MAbruce, - you give character to this forum and you have your opinions is what i was trying to say , The intent was to try and get everyone on the same page ,make suggestion, then everyone try to figure out how to impliment them.
THanks for your interest in what i have to say MAbruce
respectfully
Chris

Funny thing is I'm really not that type of a "character" [oX)], and am usually fairly quiet (note relatively low post count for the time I've been here). Not sure what happened today. Checked my calendar and a full moon is not until Saturday. Maybe something in the water, or maybe they switched coffee brands in the break room today? [:O][:D]

At any rate, just keep on reading, posting, learning, and having fun with this hobby.

[fwright]

While the forum software could stand improvement, we as a group can do a LOT to help ourselves.

1) use detailed, accurate subject lines. Generic "noob needs help" or "look what I found", and other "teaser" subjects slow me down significantly in determining what to read and not read. I have some expertise in the area of wiring, things electrical, and laying track, and I model 1900 era Pacific Northwest. So I'm not much help with, nor am I particularly interested in, the merits of Athearn vs Bachmann diesels. If I encounter too many mis-labeled subjects, I conclude I'm wasting my time today and go away. Improved subject lines will also help the search engine significantly.

2) Before posting a reply to a question or a problem, read and UNDERSTAND the question being asked. How many threads go on and on without responding to the question being asked? Again, a waste of bandwidth and time for the forum readers.

3) ties in with #2. If you can't make a meaningful contribution, don't post a reply. My hackles get raised by people answering wiring questions with misinformation and "untruths". No wonder folks get discouraged about asking questions. They get all kinds of answers, half of which will lead the questioner down the wrong path.

4) also ties in with #2 and #3. Back up your opinion with reasons and facts. Saying something or a brand is "crap" without any substantiation is another waste of bandwidth and readers' time.

5) Spelling and puctuation count (I'm guilty of problems in this area). It is far more difficult and time-consuming to read and understand posts that are plenty of mis-spellings, typos, lack of capitalization, etc. Hopefully, the forum software upgrade would offer a spell checker for the reply box, and in an ideal world would incorporate a limited grammar check. In the meantime, I need to do a better job of proof-reading my posts before hitting the "submit" button.

I believe the idea of maintaining informational clinics on independent web pages and giving a link is a great interim solution, but so far I've been too lazy to construct my web site (that I need to do for reasons other than model railroading anyway).

I am grateful for the forums, and I thank Kalmbach for sponsoring it. Since I am relocating in a few months, my physical modeling is suspended for the time being. These forums allow me to continue to stay active in the hobby in the meantime, thanks to all of you. I think with a little effort on the part of us users, it can be an even batter place to share our hobby.

yours in training
Fred Wright

[talon104]

take a breath loathar BREATH[:D][:D]

[loathar]

grande man- I really enjoy your how to clinics. Keep em coming.
(Is it you that does the loco reveiws?) If so, It ticks me off to see you go through the trouble that you do, and then some Atlas or Kato fan comes along with a helpful reply like "Athearns suck!" (or visa versa on the brands, you know what I mean).
Makes me wish I could reach through the screen and smack some body once in a while.

[talon104]

thought that might get someone attention MAbruce[:D] I think it's great and all you guys have great points; like the one that you just made to me. This is all true , i think the common goal should be met here and if this is something that everyone agrees needs to be made then maybe enough people can make the difference [:p] I appreciate the remarks made to me and hope that my little inputs doesnt by any mean offend anyone or make them less apt to help out the ones in need here.
All of your knowledge that many of you guys have is remarkable ,and sharing that knowledge with people like me who are just starting in this hobby makes it last a lifetime. I try to make suggestion where i think i can and if it makes a difference then great , if not i know i tried [:)]
Thanks for all you guys and remember with out all of you there wouldnt be people like me . If there wasnt people like me then i guess there would be a hobby after your all gone.[:p]
( something to think about when you see the newbie post )

MAbruce, - you give character to this forum and you have your opinions is what i was trying to say , The intent was to try and get everyone on the same page ,make suggestion, then everyone try to figure out how to impliment them.
THanks for your interest in what i have to say MAbruce
respectfully
Chris

[grandeman]

Joe, thanks for the info. I'm glad to hear the ball is rolling toward a better online future for Kalmbach. That will be a GREAT advancement for our hobby. I'm glad to hear that the constructive comments aren't falling on deaf ears.

Guys, when experienced modelers (like Joe) aren't posting how-to's because of the outlined issues, we all lose. It's good to know positive changes are coming.

For you folks afraid of forum moderation, it can be done in a constructive way. Only the troublemakers need to worry if it's done correctly.

Right now, we could use a Wyatt Earp moderaton style to clean up the wild west and set the standard for the future. This should be a safe place for a kid that's interested in model trains to come and learn new things to enjoy the hobby.