All Hail John Allen!

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton


Attempt? Hardly. It's done all the time by modellers in the UK, Europe and Australia. As I stated previously, it works easily if you choose a reasonably small location. Try to model an entire division or railroad, it doesn't work. I suppose it is popular in these countries because there are many compact locations to choose from.

While I'm sure your attempt at being totally realistic is genuine, the simple fact is that, in any scale smaller than probably S, you cannot do it and have anything other than a static display that would suffer damage at the merest touch.
For example, take a look at track elements. In HO, fishplates would be about as sturdy as tinfoil. You're going to hold your rail ends together with these (doing it another way would not be prototypical)? And how about the size of the bolts? True-scale fishplate bolts would be so weak that you would most likely damage them trying to install them, let alone tring to run a train on the rails they join. As far as spikes - true-scale spikes would hold basically nothing to the ties. Using European methods to attach rails to ties? Here again the bolts would be so small as to be ineffective.
Exact-scale everything implies material thicknesses are exact-scale, as well. Structures, rolling stock, etc. would be so flimsy that to handle it would be to destroy it. I've done some engineering modeling - I know.
So even an exact-scale approach has to have some compromises. Unless, of course, you've found a source of the mineral unobtainium from which to make your parts....[:D]

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

They would all go out of business and the 100% acurate people would have to build everything from scratch. There would be no forms like this. I know of two people that would be left in the hobby. Yourself, and that fellow I mentioned in the prior post who had done 3/4 of a mile of RGS.

To be 100% accurate, everything would need to be scratchbuilt anyway, so the 100 percenters wouldn't be impacted.
No one makes an exactly prototype rail profile, couplers (though some come close), and what-not. And as i said in my precious post, a true exact-scale model would have scale material thicknesses, as well. Who would have any use for a tinfoil Big Boy?

[BRAKIE]

Mark,Even at scratch building a locomotive or car will not be 100% accurate..However there is a difference between a fairly accurate locomotive or car and one that has a resemblance to a real locomotive or car because of design flaws and incorrect/lack of details.Look at the Life Like train set GP38-2 compared to the P2K GP38-2s or the Athearn or Atlas GP38-2.Get the picture?
The same can be said about layouts..

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: The Wizard of Monterey?

Someone tell him he's dreaming.

Response noted. I can't remember any other modeler whose photos could fetch $126 in a tattered softbound version - can you, Mark?

There's a reason JA was considered great. Gracious acceptance and interest in others' work was a part of it, as Linn Westcott and Jim Findley have amply attested elsewhere. I'm quite sure if he were alive, he would've treated your particular work with kinder words than you've allowed his.

Sweet dreams.

http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?qwork=4411538&wtit=model%20railroading%20with%20john%20allen&matches=3&qsort=r&cm_re=works*listing*title

[BRAKIE]

Rob,I don't know that many people that would shell out that price of $258.03 cents for that book especially when the book sells for $39.95 and on sale for $23.97..[:0]

http://www.all-railroads.com/bookvids/modelrr.htm


Model Railroading with John Allen by Linn Westcott
Here's a deluxe reprinting of the popular story of John Allen's spectacular HO scale Gorre & Daphetid Railroad, a wonderful miniature world. The G.D. Line was a magnificent model railroad, the likes of which had never been seen before. And Allen was one of the premier model railroaders of all timeÑa man who devoted the last 20 years of his life almost exclusively to the hobby. He was an innovator whose techniques hold up well to the scrutiny of today's modelers. 144 pages, 119 b&w, 77 color photos, 29 illustrations. 9.13" x 11.25", hard cover.
Order# 0400-012177 Retail $39.95 Your Sale Price $23.97

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Mark,Even at scratch building a locomotive or car will not be 100% accurate.

Exactly the point I was getting at.

Some people are nearly fanatical about getting as close as possible, while others don't care if their mountains are golf course green with bottle bru***rees, as long as it suggests a mountain.

I fall into the category of "Looks pretty much like a miniature of the real thing to the casual observer." That's my level of "good enough." Where the effort won't be herculean, I may try to do better than that. And who defines "good enough," "herculean," and so forth? Why, me of course!

I respect and admire those who try to go way beyond my own concept of "good enough," but I also respect those who fall far short of it. Each defines his or her own level that's "good enough," and I'm not about to try and impose mine on anyone else.

[rolleiman]

If they (concor) still have one that is.. The book appears to be out of print.. The most I've seen one go for was in the neighborhood of $80 on ebay.. Yea, I know, sucker born every minute.. The fact that Rob is able to point one out at $126+ online only says that no-one Has paid it yet. Of course if somebody really had to have one they could go to Amazon and pay the bargain price of $99...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-titleid=569376&ve-field=none/qid=1136558727/sr=12-1/103-8185461-4281466

Jeff

[BRAKIE]

Mark,I think those that have read my posts on other forums knows I model good enough/close enough..One can look at my C&O engines and say yes,that's exactly what a C&O engine look like..None of my engines has the finer details added like speed cables,truck chains and other finer details one doesn't see under normal viewing.
Over the years I have encourage modelers to take the next step from their current level.Now,I leave it to them if they want to take that step or not..
For as long as I can remember I have always subscribe to the school of thought that our layouts should represent the real world and a transportation system and should sly away from fantasies especially if the layout was to be viewed by the non-modeling public....After all when you mention model trains the public in general,they automatically think Lionel and exploding box cars or Tyco and the log loader they had when they was a kid...
I have notice during open house at the various clubs I been a member of over the years the most overheard comment is "Look how real that looks!." Of course the gag scene usually got a chuckle or two.

[SPFan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Rob,I don't know that many people that would shell out that price of $258.03 cents for that book especially when the book sells for $39.95 and on sale for $23.97..[:0]

http://www.all-railroads.com/bookvids/modelrr.htm

That web page is dated 2003. Most of what is listed is out of print. Good luck on getting any of these at the price listed.

Pete

[BRAKIE]

Jeff,I have seen those books in hobby shops and at train shows at full price or discounted..What I I am concern about is some newbie will buy that book at those inflated prices when it can be had for $39.95 or less!! As far as e bay..We both seen inflated bid prices there.[}:)]

[BRAKIE]

Pete Con-Cors home page was Revised: Dec. 5th 2005.A qiuck check shows the book still in stock..[;)]
[;)]http://all-railroads.com/

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Jeff,I have seen those books in hobby shops and at train shows at full price or discounted..What I I am concern about is some newbie will buy that book at those inflated prices when it can be had for $39.95 or less!! As far as e bay..We both seen inflated bid prices there.[}:)]

Me too... I know they're still out there and if someone were intent on buying one my advice Would be to shop around.. Of course what people will ask or pay for out of print ( or production ) items is topic for another discussion. If somebody Really wanted the photos of the layout, most of them in the book have been published in the magazines, submitted by JA himself. Even for the retail price of (rounded off) $40, the magazines can be had and you'll get a whole lot more.

Jeff

[SpaceMouse]

What other modelers have been featured in books? Furlow? Selios? (I've seen Koester's books.)

[rolleiman]

The V&O story, Allan McLanahand (sp?).. Didn't Cartstens (sorry Kalmbach) also publish one on the Alturas and Lone Pine (ALPS Way)??

Jeff

[SpaceMouse]

I look at realist modeling kinda like vegetarianism. Everyone has a level at where the draw the line at what they will and will not eat. At one of the scale you have people who will eat any kind of meat including people. Others will eat beef but not pork, chicken but not beef, fish but not chicken, eggs and milk, strictly vegetables, right down to the band of Sikhs that when shown the protozoa in water by a wise-butt scientist, stopped drinking water and died.

I draw the realism line with photography. I try to do what will look good under the lens. What I am ending up with is what you might say looks good, but falls short of the realism obtained by Joe Fugate at the same level of inspection. However, when running the trains, standing a couple feet back, it looks pretty good.



In the picture above, certain aspects might pass the Joe test, but you can tell the rocks are sprinkled on the path and that the bull and rider are way to stiff. As CNJ mentioned, at this point the newbee (me) is limited by skill, and [added by me] limitations of commercial products and knowledge thereof. Although the figure of Mongo is a bashing of a couple different figures and putty.

When running the trains, you see none of this. You are too busy.

This begs the question, "If you can't see the level of detail while you are running, then why do you do it?" For me the answer is to impress my friends. It feels good when they say, "Wow!" But when you think about it. that's a lot of work for such a short-lived response.

But that doesn't stop me from trying to get better.

[selector]

I am the one who has to say "Wow". First, and foremost, if I am not able to say that about my work, I am not doing what I must do. What others say about my rendering is incidental, but always welcome.

The fact is, if I do a reasonably good job of making things look like a scale approximation of what your average citizen would see driving through my scenes, they are bound to say "Wow" anyway due the the incongruity between what they know to be possible and what they actually perceive.

Case in point- I showed my Dad my new layout (a first ever effort) early last summer, and then asked him a few days later what he thought of the mine stuck on the side of my ginormous mountain (he is a mining engineer). His face went blank. Incredulously, Iasked him if he had seen it, to which he uncomfortably responded, "There was so much to take in."

-Crandell

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

I am the one who has to say "Wow". First, and foremost, if I am not able to say that about my work, I am not doing what I must do. What others say about my rendering is incidental, but always welcome.

Ideally, this is the mental state where I'd like to be. Certainly, the reason I picked modeling the Redwoods is that it is my favorite place on the planet and if I cant live there for a few years, I can create a fantasy railroad that allows me to be there in spirit. So on a macro level, I would say, yeah, I'm building it first and foremost to please myself. "

However, when I do the pieces--the structures, the scenes, the figures, I have nothing to compare myself with except the pictures I see of the talented people here and I wonder whether my work is worthy. It is then that I look for the external, "Wow!" that validates that I am on the right track.

It also helps to shore up a sometimes wavering self-esteem.

[selector]

QUOTE: [i]Originally posted by SpaceMouse

It also helps to shore up a sometimes wavering self-esteem.

Okay, if it will help the tiniest bit, I really like your scene with Mungo. You did very well with that, for my tastes. I'm sure you will do even better as you develop your dream.

[:D]

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

QUOTE: [i]Originally posted by SpaceMouse

It also helps to shore up a sometimes wavering self-esteem.

Okay, if it will help the tiniest bit, I really like your scene with Mungo. You did very well with that, for my tastes. I'm sure you will do even better as you develop your dream.

[:D]

ROFLMAO!

(Where's my teddi bear?)

[sundayniagara]

After reading some of the early threads on this subject, I am dismayed that anyone would have the nerve to bad-mouth one of the most beautiful model train layouts ever built. I am still dazzled to this day. Chutzpah - - unmitigated gall.
Mark

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by sundayniagara

After reading some of the early threads on this subject, I am dismayed that anyone would have the nerve to bad-mouth one of the most beautiful model train layouts ever built. I am still dazzled to this day. Chutzpah - - unmitigated gall.
Mark

I do not understand the hositility, but I do understand why the Allenesque way does not move them. For the same reason, you'll never see a Picasso in my home. Biberstein, yes, Picasso, no. However, if Picasso were to visit my home, knowing that others thought him great, I would make the effort to get to know him and to understand his approach to art...and their appreciation of it.

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

QUOTE: Originally posted by sundayniagara

After reading some of the early threads on this subject, I am dismayed that anyone would have the nerve to bad-mouth one of the most beautiful model train layouts ever built. I am still dazzled to this day. Chutzpah - - unmitigated gall.
Mark

I do not understand the hositility, but I do understand why the Allenesque way does not move them. For the same reason, you'll never see a Picasso in my home. Biberstein, yes, Picasso, no. However, if Picasso were to visit my home, knowing that others thought him great, I would make the effort to get to know him and to understand his approach to art...and their appreciation of it.

Very well said.

Of course there are times when some of my work resembles the style of Picasso. The problem is that it isn't meant to be!!!!!

[SpaceMouse]

Crandell,

How true. We can learn form all the masters. This month in MR we learn from Bruce Chubb. We can learn from Selios, Koester, Fugate, Templar, Armstrong, and Allen. It is an opportunity I choose not to pass up because say, I don't like the Nickle Plate Line or Selios chooses to weather using black where I prefer grey.

[slotracer]

The urge to slam others on the internet is everywhere not just here. This is a big reason why many of us don't do the demographics threads, don't introduce ourselves and don't fill out profiles. You guys have it easy, the Slot car boards and groups have had so many boards fail or close up from flaming it is amazing....these days they are far less active than say 5 years ago as so many are sick of the flaming and slamming and just stopped participating. The large scale guys hate the small scal guys, teh magnet races don't like the t-jet heads, teh scale hardbody racers despise the wing and glue lexan guys, the HOPRA guys ba***he UFHORA crowd, guys who race major events slam the hobbyist racer it goes on and on, this is mild stuff.

I wouldn't say JA was the greatest of all time but is definitely in the top 5. Lets take a step back though and realize where and how the train hobby evolved and take note of the general fact that it is hard to go back once you've been "here".
Here is the state we evolved into in the mid seventies to mid eighties, with theme based layouts, detailed, prototypical, walk around, track passing through the scene once type thinking that many wouldn't even consider not building a layout devised around these basic peramiters. I know I have thought about the possiblilty of a layout that is not 100% prototype based, that is as much for running as for prototype operation, something nicely sceniced and detailed but without the structured rigor we are mostly all acussomed to these days, but....as I noted , one you have been "here" it is hard to ever go back again.

John's layout is from a time before this kind of focus, his layout was THE ONE in the sixties, before the Durham and Southern and the Virginian and Ohio took us to the next step and layouts like the Utah Belt, Allegany Midland and NEB&W furthered during the seventies and eighties.

John's layout was great for what it was in it's times, a layout that mixed running trains with operation, art with some practicality that many would aspire to. A time before the proliferation of products and ready to run.

We have had many steps where the hobby advanced and everyone was inspired with the possibilities, the G&D was perhaps the greatest single leap.

In the hobby's earlier days, focus ws on brass kitbashing, scratchbuilding and the like, it's probable first major advancement was Frank Ellison who put forward the idea of designing, building and operating a layout with some purpose and organization.

I cannot think of a major and recognized layout until the G&D that expanded the artistic horizon and showed and inspired teh possibilities in teh hobby. The focus on a whimsical home road complete with homebreed steam power and the signature harbor, bridges, floor to ceiling mountains and grossely sway back cars sunk the hook that this thing was for real, not just an overgrown trainset.

Certainly layouts like The V&O and those that moved it's focused railraod, ralistic operation concepts further ahead and all the highly detailed and affordable cornacopia of products have changed us so much that many of us have lost sight of what teh G&D really represented at the time. It meant the crossing of the threshold and a view into a world of what model railroads could be when many were still of limited thoguth and experience and tossing about the concepts of moving 3 rail o gauge from center rail to outside third rail for realism, when a home paint job on a varney F3 was considered a high level modeler and just getting the track off the basement floor and on to purpose built table work was somewhat of an advanced set up. Te G&D took us light years ahead and showed ut teh possibilities of a purpose planned railroad and took away teh limits in many peoples mind in just how far one could dream to go in the hobby.

[slotracer]

Wow, several posted teh same time I did, popular thread. Sunday Niagara, there is only one thing I know of that could have possibly inspired that user name and it could only come from another ex Western New Yorker.

[Adelie]

I sort of equated dismissing Allen's work with denying that Lance Armstrong is an athlete on the basis that the critic does not follow competitive cycling. And I can hear the argument, "if Armstrong was a real athlete, he'd be a golfer like me."

This may come as a surprise, but I think there just might be room enough in this hobby for Allen and his admirers and Koester and his, along with anything in between or beyond. I don't think we've gotten so lousy with modelers that we need to be turning them away simply because they take a different approach than the one we choose.

[Texas Zepher]

Reading the last few posts I was somehow reminded of two other John Allen "things" I might include in a layout some day.

1. The box car with a ball bearing in it that lit up and beeped when someone bumped it too hard, slammed on the brakes, or accelerated too quickly.

2. The mechanized laugh that was wired to the yard so it started laughing at the yard operator when it got too congested.

Those sound like FUN.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

Reading the last few posts I was somehow reminded of two other John Allen "things" I might include in a layout some day.

1. The box car with a ball bearing in it that lit up and beeped when someone bumped it too hard, slammed on the brakes, or accelerated too quickly.

2. The mechanized laugh that was wired to the yard so it started laughing at the yard operator when it got too congested.

Those sound like FUN.

[:D][:D][:D]

I'd forgotten those.

[sundayniagara]

QUOTE: Originally posted by slotracer

Wow, several posted teh same time I did, popular thread. Sunday Niagara, there is only one thing I know of that could have possibly inspired that user name and it could only come from another ex Western New Yorker.

Exactomundo! Just click the link in my siggie.
Mark

[slotracer]

Small world ! Yep, I've been to the sundayniagara wbsite and even have a couple cd's of vintage Niagara photos. I was pretty young when they were operating but went a number of times, and still recall teh 1970 Gold Cup Championships and the Coca Cola Cavalcade of Funny Cars at the meet. On a god Sunday I could hear Niagara from my home in the Town of Tonawanda, a long ways away. Last time I saw the place was about 1980. We helped a friend build a super gas 64 GTO and we took it up to the old niagara to test in February, before lancaster opened. The trees and stuff were not all that big then and the pavement was still in pretty decent shape.