All Hail John Allen!

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton
I build just about everything from scratch now, so having no RTR Big Boys wouldn't bother me one bit.

I think you missed the bigger picture, I used Big Boys as the extreme example. The GP market would dry up too as well as the track market to run them on etc.... And beside when I think of things I try to think of other people too not just my own personal situation.

QUOTE: You reckon a train every 30 minutes is busy? Jeez, where I come from that'd be the frequency in middle of the night on a public holiday.

I don't reckon I know. I've spent hours by the tracks before with ZERO trains.

QUOTE: Still, just because you're easily bored doesn't make my choices about what I model any less valid.

I didn't say it was invalid, and I don't think anyone else really has either. They were surprised by it and maybe even incredulous. I was just responding to your question. You always seem to take peoples responses to your questions as a person affront, when many of those same people have said that your style just wasn't right for them. And also, I am NOT easily bored. I was saying that if I choose a prototypical place to model in the manner you have suggested it would be boring for anyone. Assuming one could be intersted in light-rail, even our local light rail system only has a train each direction every 20 minutes. Get a train from staging, run it through the staging. Stop, pick up passengers, return to station. Repeat 20 minutes later. Woud that keep you interested in operating?

[SpaceMouse]

Andre,

I understand why a person like Allen could get notoriety. Of Whit Towers, Paul Larson, Jack Work, Gib Kennedy, Doug Smith, Mel Thornburgh and even Linn Westcott, Wescott is the only name I recognize and I've seen some of his work. The others are just names.

Can anyone post example of their work or at least explain their claim to fame?

[BRAKIE]

Chip,You research to LEARN about the way the hobby was..All you need to do is some simple research and you will see many other greats that was in the hobby long before you and some before me.
Do you know who A.C.kalmbach was? and what is named in his honor?

Those "just names" did more to influence the hobby then John did.
HINT..IF you use car card and waybills you need to thank Doug Smith for that and not Tony Koester or Bruce Chubb.JA used car tabs.[xx(] You do know what a car tab is right?

Then how about the unknowns that help form the NMRA Standards and RPs?

No,JA was a small player made famous by Lynn Westcott and MR just like several of the new hobby "leaders" is made famous by RMC and MR.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Andre,

I understand why a person like Allen could get notoriety. Of Whit Towers, Paul Larson, Jack Work, Gib Kennedy, Doug Smith, Mel Thornburgh and even Linn Westcott, Wescott is the only name I recognize and I've seen some of his work. The others are just names.

Can anyone post example of their work or at least explain their claim to fame?

Whit Towers at one time was NMRA president, IIRC. His freelanced railroad was called the Alturas & Lone Pine and was set in the Sierras. Again, IIRC, Towers was one of the early converts to operation.

Paul Larson's Mineral Point and Northern was a layout set in the early part of the 20th Century. Larson was an excellent scratch builder and many of his buildings were models of prototype structures (most notably the stone station at Mineral Point, WI). There was a retrospective article on the MP&N in the May, 1981, issue of MR. If memory serves, Larson died the same year as John Allen

Jack Work and Gib Kennedy were both Canadian modelers. Both were excellent scratch builders and I believe it was Work who came up with the first really good looking conifer trees using treated air fern to represent the foliage. The most memorable thing I remember about Kennedy was a series of articles on scratchbuilding CPR's Kettle Valley passenger train as it would have appeared around 1915 (all wooden cars).

Doug Smith was the guy who, IIRC, came up with the idea of using car cards for operation. To the best of my knowledge, most of the operational schemes used today are variations of Smith's early work on the subject. While Smith's layout was a 3 times around loop without staging, Smith attempted to emulate some of the operations of a real railroad.

Mel Thornburgh was a rather prolific locomotive scratchbuilder and used only the most basic of tools. Anybody who was around at the time will remember the series of MR articles "Thornburgh Builds A Wabash Mogul" (IIRC starting in 1959). The Mogul(s) in question were the two F-4 class Wabash Moguls that were the last Wabash steam locomotives in operation. They lasted longer than other Wabash steam as they were the only locomotives light enough to cross a bridge on a Wabash branch line the location of which escapes me at the moment.

Andre

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Andre,

I understand why a person like Allen could get notoriety. Of Whit Towers, Paul Larson, Jack Work, Gib Kennedy, Doug Smith, Mel Thornburgh and even Linn Westcott, Wescott is the only name I recognize and I've seen some of his work. The others are just names.

That, Chip, comes from being in the hobby for just one year and yet assuming you know a lot about how it got to be the way it is. All the individuals Andre named were truly major players - giants - in the hobby, several of whom contributed more to today's modeling concepts than JA ever did. Meaning no disrespect to John but he was often more flash than substance when it came to educational/instructional material in the magazines. The others taught you how to make and do things, create a layout, scenick it, populating it with realistic structures, and then operating it in a realistic manner. A listing of what they actually contributed in the way of truly advancing the hobby would take up almost as much space as this useless thread. Just Linn Westcott, alone, did more for the real nuts and bolts of model railroading than JA's thought of!

CNJ831

[cjcrescent]

QUOTE: Originally posted by sundayniagara

The John Allen book was published when Linn Westcott was the MR Editor and Al Kalmbach was still alive. Those of you who weren't yet born, or who aren't old enough to remember should purchase and read some of the MR's from that era. The doubting Thomases among you just might form a different opinion.
Mark

Mark; The book was started by Westcott during part of his time as editor. He had retired and then finished the book. He unfortunately passed away before it was published.

[mersenne6]

On the very last page of the book Model Railroading With John Allen by Linn Wescott we have the following statement - "Linn Wescott retired in 1978...Linn died in September 1980 while preparing the manuscript for this book about his friend John Allen." So he wasn't editor of MR and he wasn't alive when the book was printed.

As for article publications - John was a prolific writer and he was a professional photographer. It was the wise investment of an inheritance which made him financially independent so that by 1946 he "could spend his time as he wished". He was published in RMC, Model Trains, HO Monthly, and others. Obviously he send a lot to MR and his accepted output was such that MR had to give serious thought to the spacing of his articles. At the time there were plenty of model railroaders who thought his articles appeared too often. I can't find the reference but one of past editors of MR commented that once after publishing one of Allen's articles he received letters complaining of "too much John Allen" - the complaints were apparently due to the fact that while MR hadn't had one of his articles in awhile, some of the other model magazines had, in fact, just recently published some of his work.

My first issue of MR (February 1959) had an article on the G&D. In the following issues for 1959 I read articles by Thornburgh, Work, Armitage, Larson, and Clouser. All were excellent model builders and it was obvious they were recognized as such. While the Wescott book may have served to prolong John Allens exposure to later model railroaders I think it was the combination of consistently good photography and interesting articles over a long period of time (1946-1973) that put him in the front ranks when he was alive.

[sunsetbeachry]

Gentlemen:

....Years ago my dad had a chance to go to see and talk to JA about some design work for the company that he worked for. We had a herd time finding his house and were some hours late. My dad finally finshed his work with JA and was invited to his office space. After sitting for a while they broke off the work, and ddad heeded back to Anaheim but before he left Mr. Allen invited him to come back in a couple of weeks to see thefinished products that they were working on and to bring me back to see his " hobby " work. Upon returning later Mr. Allen invited us both downstairs and much to my suprise there was his "hobby"-" work " I was completly suprised as when you walked in all that you could see was mountains from floor to ceiling ,rafters in the ceiling and model trains [afterwords dad though that a grown man playing with trains was crazy] but all that I could see was a great deal of hard work. That was the beginning of my love of model railroading, I was invited back but had to go back to school in Chicago the next day. That was the most amazing model that I have ever seen and I have seen alot of MRR. since then. The size was not large but what was in there was so great that to this day I cannot forget it. I have tried all my life to try to duplicate what I saw and have not been able too. Mr. Allen was paid a great deal of money by my dads company to design products for them but I never got back. I followedall that was written and photoed about his MRR but that never could really show how great it was. I only spent about 2 hours there with him and never forget how good his work was, he was a great portrayer of a model area, but still you must remember that I was but 11 years old at the time, and my only RR was on the floor around the Christmass tree. For many years I have tried to copy what I saw and have not the skill to do that. Mr. Allen was so good at creating a scene then a break then another scene, Wescott said that he was a man that set up a showing like a scene for a play on stage with the trains as actors and the scenery as the background. But still remember that I was but 11 years old and had no background to go buy. Over the years I see that he started a revolation in MRR.

.....................Sunset Beach Ry.............Chuck

[SpaceMouse]

I found this picture of Whit Towers Layout.



CNJ,

I don't assume to know much about the history of the hobby and was why I asked for clarification. However, I will grant you that I may have overstepped my bounds as to JA contribution to the hobby. In fact, I don't know who JA borrowed from. I have only Linn Westcotts version of JA to go on and what I saw was impressive. I also see what effect JA has had on the hobby today. I can also compare contrast his style to that of the Koesters and Furlows.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Frank Lloyd Wright did not do anything new.

Whew Chip... you were just using it as an example. I was darned close to putting on my caps lock.

QUOTE: Again,Model railroading isn't a art form and never was and I'll like to hang the slob that started that crap.

Calm yourself Jerry… don’t do it man… it isn't worth it. Put your hands behind your head and walk slowly away from the keyboard…

[swg]

[BRAKIE]

Chip,There is a lot of history to this hobby and it involves several movers and shakers..You younger generation has no idea what us older modelers went through but,that's another topic in its self...Needless to we got here from there with the work of thousands some famous and some just a fleeing name n the annual of the history of the hobby while thousands went unknown but payed a important part forming the hobby as we know it today.
There are things left to do in the hobby.Its up to your generation to see it gets done..Like what? After all these years we still don't have a standard coupler design approved by the NMRA.[:0]

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

QUOTE: Frank Lloyd Wright did not do anything new.

Whew Chip... you were just using it as an example. I was darned close to putting on my caps lock.

And Shakespeare (I like to call him Wild Willy) was just a two-bit poet.

I love Frank Lloyd Wrights work. Falling Waters is about 50 miles from here. Totally cool.

[tstage]

Wow! Has this turned out to be quite a thread! [:O] Chip, you should have posted this just before your anniversary. You could have reached 4000 in time, for sure. [:P]

Tom

[selector]

Two more posts!! [:D][8D][8D] Who has the shampaggnee?

[roadrat]

Well I don't care what anybody say's in the next Presidential election I'm voting for SPACEMOUSE!
Spacemouse for prez!!![:D][}:)][:O][;)][bow][:-,]
This is a great topic I could read this for hours (and I have!)

bill

[marknewton]

rriperger wrote:

QUOTE: It seems rather tediously obvious at this point that John Allen
was well known because of MR - although the independent management of
Railroad Model Craftsman and the now-defunct HO Monthly and the NMRA all
promoted him, too. Why? Because people wanted it. Yes, there were
undoubtedly those who disliked him. We have ample evidence of that
here.

Again, you're attributing comments to me that I have never made. I don't
dislike John Allen. I think his modelling, influence and achievemnets
are over-rated. And yes, there were undoubtedly those who disliked him,
if the number of critical letters that appeared in MR over the years are
anything to judge by.

Ta-ta,

Mark.

[marknewton]

selector wrote:

QUOTE: All mimickry is art. Modeling is mimickry. Ergo...(must I spell
it out?)

And we need meaningless aphorisms like we need a hole in the head. [:-)]

Not all mimickry is art. The animals who use mimickry as a survival
strategy aren't looking to be hung in a gallery.

Not all modelling is mimickry. Fantasy modellers aren't mimicking
anything, they're inventing what they model.

Ergo most model railroading is not art.

But if we accept your premise, then only realistic models of an actual
prototype are art.

Ta-ta,

Mark.

[marknewton]

sundayniagara wrote:

QUOTE: The John Allen book was published when Linn Westcott was the MR
Editor and Al Kalmbach was still alive. Those of you who weren't yet
born, or who aren't old enough to remember should purchase and read some
of the MR's from that era. The doubting Thomases among you just might
form a different opinion.

This particular Doubting Thomas has all of the MRs from that era,
and has read the book, as well. That's why I formed the opinion I
have. I suppose you'll just chalk that up to chutzpah...

Ta-ta,

Mark.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

rriperger wrote:

QUOTE: It seems rather tediously obvious at this point that John Allen
was well known because of MR - although the independent management of
Railroad Model Craftsman and the now-defunct HO Monthly and the NMRA all
promoted him, too. Why? Because people wanted it. Yes, there were
undoubtedly those who disliked him. We have ample evidence of that
here.

Again, you're attributing comments to me that I have never made. I don't
dislike John Allen. I think his modelling, influence and achievemnets
are over-rated. And yes, there were undoubtedly those who disliked him,
if the number of critical letters that appeared in MR over the years are
anything to judge by.

Ta-ta,

Mark.

Given that Allen was rather a modest man, it's funny that there would be those that didn't like him. And you're right, there were critical letters to MR over the years, often complaining about too much John Allen even though months had gone by since an Allen article had appeared. I remember reading some of those letters.

I just chalked it up to envy, as I don't recall any of the complainers actually writing articles for MR themselves.

I've also heard complaints here about too much Eric Brooman.

Andre

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

selector wrote:

QUOTE: All mimickry is art. Modeling is mimickry. Ergo...(must I spell
it out?)

And we need meaningless aphorisms like we need a hole in the head. [:-)]

Not all mimickry is art. The animals who use mimickry as a survival
strategy aren't looking to be hung in a gallery.

Not all modelling is mimickry. Fantasy modellers aren't mimicking
anything, they're inventing what they model.

Ergo most model railroading is not art.

But if we accept your premise, then only realistic models of an actual
prototype are art.

Ta-ta,

Mark.

Do animals model railroads?

A fanstasy modeller, since you used the term, is a modeller still. The invention makes it art.

And if we accept your conclusion, then Allen was not an artist, nor for that matter was Picasso.

[Anonymous]

ZzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Someone kill this thread please, Aruging over what dead men did and did not do for this hobby is pointless.

[BRAKIE]

Andre,I don't think envy had anything to do with it no more then those that complain about Tony Koester,Allen McClelland ,Bruce Chubb and the other current "leaders" of the hobby.Some times enough is enough when it comes to seeing the same layout over and over and over and over and -well you get the picture..And thus it is with many of the greats and John Allen wasn't excluded from from those that complain about the repeat pictures of the same layouts found in MR and RMC..

[IRONROOSTER]

It's ironic how John Allen still polarizes this hobby over 30 years after his death. From all I have read about him, this is not a legacy he would have wanted.

From my perspective after 34 years in model railroading:

I think that Frank Ellison's series "The Art of Model Railroading" is the best description of what this hobby can be all about.

John Allen is the most inspiring model railroader. This is through a combination of his modeling and his photography and his articles.

Linn Westcott and Whit Towers are the best two editors we've had.

John Armstrong is the best trackplanning author both for his trackplans and his books.

The current trend is away from model railroading as painting and toward model railroading as photography in both design and operation. While this trend is supported in the press both ends of the continuim are valid as well as any mid point that you may chose.

Model Railroading is supposed to be fun, if it's not it's time to find another hobby.

These are my opinions of course and your mileage may vary.[2c]

Enjoy
Paul

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Chip,There is a lot of history to this hobby and it involves several movers and shakers..You younger generation has no idea what us older modelers went through but,that's another topic in its self...Needless to we got here from there with the work of thousands some famous and some just a fleeing name n the annual of the history of the hobby while thousands went unknown but payed a important part forming the hobby as we know it today.
There are things left to do in the hobby.Its up to your generation to see it gets done..Like what? After all these years we still don't have a standard coupler design approved by the NMRA.[:0]

I would not be surprized if the next movement in MR is the modeling of realistic ambient sounds. The trick will be get where it ads to the model rather than making it overbearing.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Andre,I don't think envy had anything to do with it no more then those that complain about Tony Koester,Allen McClelland ,Bruce Chubb and the other current "leaders" of the hobby.Some times enough is enough when it comes to seeing the same layout over and over and over and over and -well you get the picture..And thus it is with many of the greats and John Allen wasn't excluded from from those that complain about the repeat pictures of the same layouts found in MR and RMC..

MR and RMC staffers can only generate so much material on their own. After that, they're dependent on the articles written by non-staffers. If people aren't happy because Eric Brooman or Allen McClelland is showing up more often than these people deem appropriate, let them write their own material and submit it. If I get tired of seeing Pelle Soeberg's work (not bloody likely) in the pages of MR, then it's incumbent on me to provide some material of my own. If I'm not willing to step up to the plate, then I have no grounds for complaint. None. Zip diddley squat.

Andre

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse


I would not be surprized if the next movement in MR is the modeling of realistic ambient sounds. The trick will be get where it ads to the model rather than making it overbearing.

People have been playing with that for Years.. Crickets chirping, kids playing, car motors running in a service garage.. Or did I miss your point?

The attempt at total realizm I always got a real crack up out of was "Olefactory Airs".. Realistic (supposedly) smells for the layout.. Just stay away from the outhouse one [:(] Anybody ever buy any of That Stuff? And no, I didn't.

Jeff

[edkowal]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse


I would not be surprized if the next movement in MR is the modeling of realistic ambient sounds. The trick will be get where it ads to the model rather than making it overbearing.

People have been playing with that for Years.. Crickets chirping, kids playing, car motors running in a service garage.. Or did I miss your point?

The attempt at total realizm I always got a real crack up out of was "Olefactory Airs".. Realistic (supposedly) smells for the layout.. Just stay away from the outhouse one [:(] Anybody ever buy any of That Stuff? And no, I didn't.

Jeff

Ambient sound is already being done, and has been done for years. There have been at least five small companies that I know of that produced products in this genre. Of those five, three are still in existence.

One way to avoid ambient sound becoming overbearing is to be gentle on the volume. With a lot of sound cards and onboard sound systems, the owners love to crank up the volume. This can quickly produce headaches. If, however, the effects are only audible when you're within a few feet of the source of the sound, things are much more soothing. And in fact, the operators may quiet down themselves, to enjoy the sounds of the model world. So, paradoxically, adding ambient sound at low levels may actually produce a quieter environment !!

As far as Olfactory Airs is concerned, a departed friend of mine bought two of the featured scents produced by that company, and brought them to the club we were members of. One of them was a Pine Forest scent, the other was some sort of industrial essence that I can't remember exactly. Probably auto repair shop, or something like that. Well the Pine Forest smelled like one of those air fresheners for your car mirror, and the second was similarly nondescript. My friend was not pleased, and didn't use them for anything at all. The small vials were probably left on a shelf to slowly evaporate away.

If you combine the quality free essence of the odors with the fairly expensive prices being charged for them, their lack of success was fore-ordained. And I think that they were a one concept company, so when this product failed, there was nothing to fall back on.

-Ed

[SpaceMouse]

Ed and Jeff,

I've seen ads for a couple of those companies and the problem is that they are necessarily too limited. For ambient sound modling to be worth a darn, it will have to be recordable with accessible sound libraries and a generic open source sound format.

The other thing that must been worked out is accurate scaling of the sounds.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edkowal

Ambient sound is already being done, and has been done for years. There have been at least five small companies that I know of that produced products in this genre. Of those five, three are still in existence.

One way to avoid ambient sound becoming overbearing is to be gentle on the volume. With a lot of sound cards and onboard sound systems, the owners love to crank up the volume. This can quickly produce headaches. If, however, the effects are only audible when you're within a few feet of the source of the sound, things are much more soothing. And in fact, the operators may quiet down themselves, to enjoy the sounds of the model world. So, paradoxically, adding ambient sound at low levels may actually produce a quieter environment !!

As I pointed out just today in another thread, sound is only practical on either very large home or club layouts. Sound does not scale and in the typical room employed for relatively small home layouts, all the differing sounds will blend together, regardingless at what audible level they are played. The only way it can work therein is to have a single scene layout concept (all urban, all rural, etc.) and play a single sort of appropriate sound. Elsewise, all the sounds unavoidably reflect off the surrounding walls and all you get is a low, distracting din.

CNJ831

[BRAKIE]

I would like to seen industrial sounds made after all we have locomotive sounds.