All Hail John Allen!

[SpaceMouse]

John Allen is probably the most celebrated, imitated and honored model railroader in history. Many great model railroaders have paid homage to him including George Selios.

I have added my name to that list. No not to the great modelers, but to the list of people who have paid homage on their layout.

I now have the G&D spread and of course they have their own private drover's caboose.



The G&D spread, Al Gorre and Ben Daphetid, have the largest spread in the country. For you history buffs, this is before Al Gorre invented the telegraph.

One of the top hands, GW is known for his extraordinary abilities as a wrangler.



Have you paid tribute to John Allen. IF so, how?

[ARTHILL]

My floor to ceiling gorge with double water fall and high bridge is inspired by him. The hunting scene was influenced by his imagination though he never did such a scene. I just donated a copy of MR with pics of his first layout to the club for their fund raiser. Someone else can now see how it all began. Everytime I work on scenery of concoct an unussual scene I think of his influence on me decades ago. Only now do I have opportunity to allow that influence to do something. I hope to try some sway back cars someday.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ARTHILL

My floor to ceiling gorge with double water fall and high bridge is inspired by him. The hunting scene was influenced by his imagination though he never did such a scene. I just donated a copy of MR with pics of his first layout to the club for their fund raiser. Someone else can now see how it all began. Everytime I work on scenery of concoct an unussual scene I think of his influence on me decades ago. Only now do I have opportunity to allow that influence to do something. I hope to try some sway back cars someday.

The pictures of your layout are great. I would love a floor to ceiling layout, but my having a pike is contigent upon me creating storage.

[claycts]

For a treat find the BOOK Railroading with John Allen OR the VHS on the G&D both are a must if you are into the man and his masterful way of bring things to life. When you see his figures it is hard to belive they are WAX.
Chip I agree the man was a true artiest in more ways than one.

[hminky]

I believe his goal was operating a model railroad as a railroad. Most people miss that aspect of the John Allen experience. His articles in the mid-60's about operating were really great.

Just a thought
Harold

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse


John Allen is probably the most celebrated, imitated and honored model railroader in history.

He is undoubtedly the "most celebrated, imitated and honored model railroader" in the United States, but that's as far as it goes. In the rest of the world, there are many railway modellers who have never even heard of him. His fame is not as widespread as you seem to believe.

QUOTE: Have you paid tribute to John Allen. IF so, how?

No, I haven't, nor would I want to. I've never been impressed by Allen's modelling, nor that of his followers like Furlow and Sellios. I prefer realistic modelling.

All the best for the New Year,

Mark.

[hminky]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

I've never been impressed by Allen's modelling, nor that of his followers like Furlow and Sellios. I prefer realistic modelling.

Unfortunately for poor old John his work is taken out of the context of when it was being built. He introduced "realistic modeling" in the 1950's. The overall layout looks like a fantasy. The individual scenes show his move toward realism. His article's in the mid-1950's about weathering were ground breaking. The use of smaller rail was revolutionary, code 70 in a world of standard 100. The structures that he built that had a super realistic look like his engine house.

John Allen should not be judged by "the followers" who are merely characature modelers but by his work in relation to the time period in which he was working. It is a shame some of those "followers" never looked outside and modeled real life and instead poorly counterfeited his work.

He is my inspiration to model realistically and not just build "model trains".



Just a thought
Harold

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

No, I haven't, nor would I want to. I've never been impressed by Allen's modelling, nor that of his followers like Furlow and Sellios. I prefer realistic modelling.

All the best for the New Year,

Mark.

So let's see yours..

Jeff

[twhite]

Well, Wagon Wheel Gap and Yuba Summit (east approach) on my Yuba River Sub are close to becoming floor-to-ceiling scenery (I'm waiting until I've got everything else just about finished so that I don't start rockslides moving stuff in and out of the layout).
And I'm looking in toy stores to see if I can find an appropriate "Gertie" for my yard (Allen's famous Stegosaur switching dinosaur). I think I'll pass on the trestle-lynching scene, though. He was a remarkable model railroader--I've just about worn out the videocassette made of his layout.
Tom

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

No, I haven't, nor would I want to. I've never been impressed by Allen's modelling, nor that of his followers like Furlow and Sellios. I prefer realistic modelling.

All the best for the New Year,

Mark.

So let's see yours..

Why, Jeff? Am I not permitted to express an opinion in a forum? Do I have to have a layout that meets your approval before I post?

But that's OK, I'll play your way. I'll post some photos of my work. Just to be fair and consistent, you post some of yours.

All the best,

Mark.

[NevinW]

Ho boy! Now you've done it!. This exact thread went on for 200 posts on the Bachmann website. Soon there will be discussions about Furlow and Sellios and how dirty and unrealistic their modeling is. - Nevin

[hminky]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NevinW

Furlow and Sellios and how dirty and unrealistic their modeling is. - Nevin

Neither Furlow nor Sellios are realistic modelers. They do charicatures. That seems to be the present trend in modeling. If you go to meets the dioramas that win the awards are not the most realistic but the most cluttered, over weathered and fanciful. We are seeing a trend away form realism. On the MR DVD most of the layouts are fanciful.
Not that there is any thing wrong with that point of view, but it would be nice to see a Jack Burgess style layout once and a while in the magazines. See my first layout tour on my Santa Clara convention page:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/santa_clara/

Realism is harder than charicature so it seems to be losing out.

Just a thought
Harold

[BRAKIE]

I grew up seeing John's work..I was not impress and I was not the only one.You see Allen,Furlow and Sellios are all overrated by those that are easily impress.Sellios layout looks like the movie set out of the "Popeye" movie and has no real bases for major east coast cities in the 30s.Furlow is another John Allen wanna be.

[roadrat]

QUOTE:

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

No, I haven't, nor would I want to. I've never been impressed by Allen's modelling, nor that of his followers like Furlow and Sellios. I prefer realistic modelling.

All the best for the New Year,

Mark.

QUOTE:

I must disagree about Sellios his work may be cluttered and have a depression era look to it but it is still fantastic on all levels, that being said to each his own this is a hobby not a job.

bill

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

I grew up seeing John's work..I was not impress and I was not the only one.You see Allen,Furlow and Sellios are all overrated by those that are easily impress.Sellios layout looks like the movie set out of the "Popeye" movie and has no real bases for major east coast cities in the 30s.Furlow is another John Allen wanna be.

AMEN!

CNJ831

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by roadrat

I must disagree about Sellios his work may be cluttered and have a depression era look to it but it is still fantastic on all levels, that being said to each his own this is a hobby not a job.

bill

During the Great Depression major New England cities looked nothing like the F&SM. Nor did the American Southwest ever look like any of Furlow's layouts. Great modelers? Yes, absolutely! But should one really be revered for building a Disney-like layout?

And, yes, everyone has the right to model as they please. But the observer should never be so naive as to take absolute fantasy for reality...as so many do today in the cases of the three modelers (see the discussion of Allen, Sellios, Furlow, and 1940's film noir's influence on the hobby a year or so ago here).

CNJ831

[SpaceMouse]

Brakie,

I disagree. Furlow is pretty much a law unto himself. Although there are characatures, that is where the similarities stop. Furlow's work is a 3d expression of his art--his real life profession. Allen had a sense of humor, sure, but Furlow carried his work to a world all to itself.

[MidlandPacific]

I don't know that I buy the "caricatures" argument. All art involves some degree of abstraction, and no image is ever a perfect representation of reality. People enjoy the GD Line not because it was a perfectly rendered version of reality, but because it was an effective work of art. It's hard to define just what that is, because everyone takes something different away from it, but I'll hang my hat on the empirical hook, and note the sheer number of people who came away from either personal visits or magazine viewings with an impression of a fantastic achievement. I know a guy at my LHS who's made it a point to collect every single article ever written about JA, and there's a Yahoo group devoted (and devoted is the word) to the GD Line. Similarly, I've met people from time to time who operated on the GD when stationed in Monterey or who paid it a visit, and with one exception their reaction was essentially the same: "I've never seen anything like it before or since." They felt it was memorable and beautiful, and even inspirational.

His work defends itself by surviving, just like anyone else's. Like it or not, it will be discussed as long as the hobby is around, and that endurance alone is a sign that there really is something there. I'm less familiar with George Sellios' work, but he's making a living by doing it, so there must be some demand for it.

[ereimer]

yes , i have a G&D ventilated boxcar

allen , furlow and sellios should be admired for their artistic vision , and the work they've done to create that vision in model form . like any work of art their modeling appeals to some viewers and not to others

[hminky]

Not to sound negative, unless you present pictures of your work you shouldn't criticize others. Most people who object to Sellios, Furlow, etc. usually pour their scenery out of a Woodland Scenics box, and air brush everything roof brown and grimy black.
If you have an objection show that your work is better before tearing down others. Personally I find their work over cluttered and cartoonish.


Click image to enlarge

My California in the 1870's, with the soon to be replaced On30 tunnel portal

Just a thought
Harold

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Brakie,

I disagree. Furlow is pretty much a law unto himself. Although there are characatures, that is where the similarities stop. Furlow's work is a 3d expression of his art--his real life profession. Allen had a sense of humor, sure, but Furlow carried his work to a world all to itself.

Chip,You being new to the hobby and still in the wow stage I can fully understand and respect your views..However,as you grow in the hobby you will understand my thoughts far better...I recall 2 other modelers bursting into the modeling scene in the 60s that will go far beyond Farlow,Allen and Sellios.These two man has change the course of the hobby in the way we model and build our layouts.Those men Allen McClellan and Tony Koester has done more to inspire the hobby then Allen,Furlow and Sellios will ever do.Then lets not forget the father of car card/waybills Doug Smith that change our ways of handling cars.Another ground shaker was Lynn Westcott that lead the way as editor of MR..
So,you see Allen,Furlow and Sellios are good modelers but not ground shakers.There is no doubt about that.[:D]

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by roadrat

I must disagree about Sellios his work may be cluttered and have a depression era look to it but it is still fantastic on all levels, that being said to each his own this is a hobby not a job.

bill

During the Great Depression major New England cities looked nothing like the F&SM. Nor did the American Southwest ever look like any of Furlow's layouts. Great modelers? Yes, absolutely! But should one really be revered for building a Disney-like layout?

And, yes, everyone has the right to model as they please. But the observer should never be so naive as to take absolute fantasy for reality...as so many do today in the cases of the three modelers (see the discussion of Allen, Sellios, Furlow, and 1940's film noir's influence on the hobby a year or so ago here).

CNJ831

Ditto on all counts. I've never been impressed by Allen, Sellios, Furlow. or those who copy them, no matter how skilled their modeling may be. I hold Bill Darnaby's work to be the most realistic in print today, and he's a freelancer.

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: You being new to the hobby and still in the wow stage I can fully understand and respect your views..However,as you grow in the hobby you will understand my thoughts far better...

As argument, this is a fallacy known as a solipsism, and the essence of it is "only I (or someone like me) can understand my point of view."

That aside, I agree that Linn Westcott is important, as is Allen McClellan. But all I see here is the unproven assertion that "other people are greater" and that they've done "more" to inspire than JA. Which may be true, for you - but is it true for the population of modelers at large? And if so, how do we know?

[BRAKIE]

Rob,I suppose you could start with asking older modelers (above 55) that was around in John's day..Be prepared to hear answers you may not like.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE


Chip,You being new to the hobby and still in the wow stage I can fully understand and respect your views..

I'm not an artist either but I know that there is a difference between a landscape and abstract expressionism.

If you look at layout design theory a s a continum, you can place Furlow at one end and Koester at the other. But either one one has a layout that holds the integrety for what they were trying to accomplish. There couldn't have been a Koester or Furchow without Allen's work and there will be others that follow that will build on Furlow and Koester.

If you look at layouts as an art form, and they are, then layout art is a progression of building upon the discoveries of others. Koester went one direction Furlow went another.

And like art is determined by muesums, layout art is determined by the publications. Every once in a while someone comes along and breaks the mole. Furlow is one. Koester is another, though I would argue, not so much. Koester is a mentalist, who sees the layout in the form of art imitating nature. Furlow sees the layout as art flowing from within.

There will be a steady flow of Koesters that "move the hobby forward." It's the Furlows and Selioses that keep them honest.

[ARTHILL]

I am one of those "Older Modelers" and "THE" influence was JA. Wescott conviced me I could do it and taught me new skills. Sassi is important on this round. All the other people mentioned added much, but JA was the first to show me humor, artistry, and mountains as I thought they ought to be. His Varney adds were in inspiration then and still are as I read the old MRs. I still look at them and say, I can do that, not as well, but it will be fun. I am glad there are others who equally inspire others, and the new generation is looking up to you guys as well they ought.

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: Rob,I suppose you could start with asking older modelers (above 55) that was around in John's day..Be prepared to hear answers you may not like.

I have. I have either been in or around the Army for most of my adult life, and so I've come across a lot of people who passed through Monterey when Allen was modeling. If there's some personal issue involved, well and good - the one man I knew who disliked him was himself a pretty cranky fellow, and he objected to what he saw as JA's crankiness. But I know and know of a lot more people who knew him personally who praise his ability, his personality, and his sense of humor - and they're people like Andy Sperandeo, John Armstrong's son, and the late Linn Westcott, whose praises ran to book length. If you have a definitive critique, I'm prepared to hear it - but "be prepared to hear answers you won't like" isn't it.

[SpaceMouse]

Probably one body of work that influenced me, or should I say inspired me, was the work of Paul Templar.



He has his own distinct style that is often imitated. But although his work is excellent, an artist in anyone's book, I don't place him with Furlow or Selios or Allen. Clearly, he has little in common with Koester. He does have a following, perhaps greater than Furlow or even Koester. But I wonder 20 years from now, what his contribution will be to layout art. I also wonder how much that will be determined by MR.

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

No, I haven't, nor would I want to. I've never been impressed by Allen's modelling, nor that of his followers like Furlow and Sellios. I prefer realistic modelling.

All the best for the New Year,

Mark.

So let's see yours..

Why, Jeff? Am I not permitted to express an opinion in a forum? Do I have to have a layout that meets your approval before I post?

But that's OK, I'll play your way. I'll post some photos of my work. Just to be fair and consistent, you post some of yours.

All the best,

Mark.

Certainly, I don't think I suggested you don't.. The reason I Ask is Because I would like to see what your version of "realistic" is.. You clearly had nothing positive to add to this particular thread but yet you chose to bash it. As for being "fair and consistent", My web page and email are and always have been linked at the bottom of every one of my posts where it says EMAIL and WEB, Just to the right of where it says Profile. Anyone who wants to is free to look and if they so choose, write.

Best back at ya, Jeff.

[vsmith]

Wow isnt it funny how we can still have Rivet Counters dissing other layouts that dont fit into thier predefined notion of what constitutes a "Real" layout?

Funny but i always thought this was a "Hobby" where the individual modeler was allowed to created his own version of reality thru the lense of there layout, hence we get George Sellios magnificent layout and Furlows layouts that are very much works of art more so than an exact layout, But based on some of these posts I guess its supposed to be a precise science where anything resembling FUN or a SENSE OF HUMOR was to be cast into the abiss. God forbid you actually ENJOY making things up!

Maybe I've just been stuck in my garage too long but to me this entire hobby has always been about having fun, fun as in creating my own world and not slaveishly replicating a piece real world. If someone wants Dinosaurs pushing cars onto sidings and can do it convincingly, terrific!.

Some of you guys need to loosen up a little, have some fun, and buy a dinosuar!