QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Wow isnt it funny how we can still have Rivet Counters dissing other layouts that dont fit into thier predefined notion of what constitutes a "Real" layout?
QUOTE: Originally posted by jnkbritz I certainly agree that John Allen and George Sellios were/are a tad lead-footed in filling their layouts with the unusual (and especially for Allen – exaggerated), as opposed to typical scenes. Call that a caricature if you want… but it definitely makes for a lot of WOW factor which is very important to attracting people to the hobby. Allen McClellan and Tony Koester are, of course excellent modelers, and have carried the Armstrong torch of operations-oriented railroading to new dimensions. However as I remember back to articles about their layouts… impressive – definitely; more than most of will ever dream of accomplishing in our lifetimes - absolutely; but big time WOW factor? Not really, and especially not to a potential newbie.
QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton "WOW factor" is entirely subjective - for me, it comes from realistic modeling of a believable scene. Even though though Koester and McClellan's layouts were both freelanced, they were grounded in reality. Allen and Sellios aren't, their layouts represent their individual fantasy worlds. There's nothing wrong with that, I just can't get into another man's fantasy. All the best, Mark.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse I would humbly suggest that your layout is your fantasy. While it more steeped in your version of reality than maybe someone else, you still choose what is included and what is excluded. Selios saw the depression as a dark time and represented it with darkly weathered buildings. It is too dark for my tastes, but then it has the effect he intended. Allen sprinkled his layout with the absurd. I suppose he saw life that way. Perhaps in the same way Koester's representation of reality, his fantasy, brings order to an otherwise chaotic life, and it is his way of making sense of things. A modeler's pike is a representation of who they are, an extension of how they see things and how they think. It can be an expression of how they wi***hings would be. (Koester) Or it can be interpretation of how they see things. (Furlow.)
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 Chip, IMO there's nothing very deep or philosophical about the hobby for most of us, nor about most of our model railroads. CNJ831
QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 Chip, IMO there's nothing very deep or philosophical about the hobby for most of us, nor about most of our model railroads. CNJ831 You don't have to intend to have your model a reflection of who you are. It is an expression of your choices. The choice to fix a mistake. A choice to continue or not continue to completion. A choice to model a pickle factory or a strip joint. Whether or not you choose to do so, your pike will reflect who you are.
QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse John Allen is probably the most celebrated, imitated and honored model railroader in history. He is undoubtedly the "most celebrated, imitated and honored model railroader" in the United States, but that's as far as it goes. In the rest of the world, there are many railway modellers who have never even heard of him. His fame is not as widespread as you seem to believe. QUOTE: Have you paid tribute to John Allen. IF so, how? No, I haven't, nor would I want to. I've never been impressed by Allen's modelling, nor that of his followers like Furlow and Sellios. I prefer realistic modelling. All the best for the New Year, Mark.
QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse John Allen is probably the most celebrated, imitated and honored model railroader in history.
QUOTE: Have you paid tribute to John Allen. IF so, how?
QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse So you are saying your layout style has nothing to do with who you are?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 Originally posted by SpaceMouse Originally posted by CNJ831 Chip, IMO there's nothing very deep or philosophical about the hobby for most of us, nor about most of our model railroads. CNJ831 You When you've been in the hobby far longer and grow to have more experience, you will find that most modelers tend to copy parts of other well known modeler's styles to create their own layouts...which is why sales of MR have been a success for so long. There's no mumbo jumbo involved in the building of most layouts. CNJ831 This is patronizing. There is too much learning that goes on in a person's life to consign them to neophyte (and therefore uneducated) status on a dimension such as the impressionistic value or attributes of a hobby such as ours. I know that Chip has taught at the college level, so he's no stoop, and the same can be said for me, if I may. While we may not know much about the integral technical requirements of the hobby, we are able to express our understanding of the expressiveness that we see in what others present to us. We are all heuristically programmed, so we 'make' our own discoveries based on what we sense and based upon our learning and preferences. As I said earlier, reality lies in singularity. Each of us creates our own, by definition, and where there is transferrence and generalizability, we encounter brief moments of 'recognition' of what others call their reality. It is this that generates the impetus of the hobby, the recognition that each of us gets, from time to time, in 'seeing' the reality of others. That means that some of us do not recognize our ourselves (our reality) in the works of those whom other modelers hold in high regard. -Crandell Reply SpaceMouse Member sinceDecember 2004 From: Rimrock, Arizona 11,251 posts Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 11:53 AM The examples you give fit my argument. You see the mines because that is a matter of survival. You don't see the mushroom next to it because it is not important. You see the differences in engines because that is important to you, but you don't see that the tree behind the engine is a fig tree. What is important is your reality, what is not is deleted, generalized or distorted. Let's put it another way. There are 12 buildings on a block that you want to model. 11 of them are easy to model, you can get close replicas of them at any LHS. The last building, the second from the end, is architecturally different and clashes with the rest of the block. Furthermore, it has awkward angles. You have room for 3 buildings on your layout. Do you choose 3 easy buildings? Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it at the end of the block. Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it in the center. Each of these clearly doesn't not represent the block. Your types of choices, made over and over, create a layout that is a personal reflection of your choice processes that is individual to you and how you think. Did you see the second the? Chip Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos. Reply andrechapelon Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: California & Maine 3,848 posts Posted by andrechapelon on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 11:55 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE Sorry,Chip I don't buy what you say about observation.IF that was true I would have been KIA in 'Nam by not seeing trip wires,ambushes and other surprises.. The power of observation is keen this is how we observe danger and how we survive in everyday life. Wasn't for keen observation we could not tell the difference between locomotive phases by just looking at the prototype and we would not see the finer details.Now add the the serious modelers that model right down to the tree stump by the track maintenance shed by doing what is called prototype modeling how are these modelers expressing their selves?. Brakie, You saw the trip wires, ambushes and other surprises because seeing them not only was important, it was vital. IOW, you paid attention to those details because it was important and you were trained to look out for them. Chip's right, the mind can't encompass all it sees. Unless something is important for some reason, we tend to tune things out or at most let them ride at the edge of conciousness. If we focus on observing something because it's important, we automatically lose focus on something else. Minor example: I was driving on I-40 westbound just west of Winslow, AZ. Since the BNSF tracks are close by, I was looking for trains. My wife, who wasn't paying attention to the tracks spotted a truck that had a small steam locomotive and a passenger car on the trailer. I completely missed it as I drove by. If it hadn't been for my wife mentioning it and my slowing down to let the truck pass, I never would have seen it. I was only paying sufficient attention to traffic to ensure that I didn't get into trouble. IOW, I saw the truck as just part of the traffic and paid no attention whatsoever to the load until my wife spoke up. Andre It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip. Reply bcammack Member sinceDecember 2002 From: US 403 posts Posted by bcammack on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 11:57 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse I would humbly suggest that your layout is your fantasy. While it more steeped in your version of reality than maybe someone else, you still choose what is included and what is excluded. Selios saw the depression as a dark time and represented it with darkly weathered buildings. It is too dark for my tastes, but then it has the effect he intended. Allen sprinkled his layout with the absurd. I suppose he saw life that way. Perhaps in the same way Koester's representation of reality, his fantasy, brings order to an otherwise chaotic life, and it is his way of making sense of things. A modeler's pike is a representation of who they are, an extension of how they see things and how they think. It can be an expression of how they wi***hings would be. (Koester) Or it can be interpretation of how they see things. (Furlow.) Nonsense. For the vast majority of model railroaders the hobby is not about deep personal philosophies or Freudian interpretations. It's about attempting to replicate the real world to the best our abilities...often today based on reseaching a prototype. While some layouts may be so far off the mark as to be considered "fantasy-based", this is more often a matter of lack of modeling talent than it is one of intention...or is perhaps to cover-up such shortcomings and make it look harmlessly "cute". CNJ831 While not specifically about deep personal philosophies or Freudian interpretations, the end result cannot be unaffected by those things, acknowledged or not. The "real world" is a slippery thing and subject to interpretation through the unique matrix constructed of our own personal life experiences. Sellios models his perception of the Depression. Allen interjected the whimsey that he perceived in life that others seemed to forget to appreciate. What it all boils down to is, "Do you prefer abstract art? Impressionism? Photo-realism?" If we all perceived the world the same way, there would be no reason for different forms of artistic, creative expression. As the philosopher/cartoonist B. Kliban once wrote, "One man's mate is another man's person." Happy New Year, ladies and gentlemen. Regards, Brett C. Cammack Holly Hill, FL Reply NevinW Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Nevada 825 posts Posted by NevinW on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 12:12 PM Yesterday I happened to pick up and old model Railroader from 1997-1998 that had a John Allen retrospective in it and I looked at those pictures again. I have to admit that this guy could do some serious modeling and photography. Those photos looked beautiful. When one considers that many of these photos were taken in the 1960's, I am very impressed. He was also doing real operations on that railroad when most modelers were just trying to get it around the track without derailing. Certainly, all one has to do is pick up any Shortline and Narrow Gauge Gazette to see modeling and photography that IMO is better than John Allen, but compared to what was the standard in the 1960's, John Allen had clearly talent. He set the standard and was ahead of his time. I have also read that he regretted some of his more whimsical components to his modeling such as the silly name and the dinosaurs as he got older and wished that he had taken the railroad in a more prototypical direction. Sometimes people forget that what we are talking about here is taste, and tastes vary and taste changes over time. Today's TK inspired prototypically exact duplicate of the real world maybe considered passe in 20 years (even though I fully admit that those are the kind of railroads I like best). Remember garden railroads are where much of the growth in the hobby is these days and most of those are not duplicates of a specific prototype. - Nevin Reply BRAKIE Member sinceOctober 2001 From: OH 17,574 posts Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 12:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse The examples you give fit my argument. You see the mines because that is a matter of survival. You don't see the mushroom next to it because it is not important. You see the differences in engines because that is important to you, but you don't see that the tree behind the engine is a fig tree. What is important is your reality, what is not is deleted, generalized or distorted. Let's put it another way. There are 12 buildings on a block that you want to model. 11 of them are easy to model, you can get close replicas of them at any LHS. The last building, the second from the end, is architecturally different and clashes with the rest of the block. Furthermore, it has awkward angles. You have room for 3 buildings on your layout. Do you choose 3 easy buildings? Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it at the end of the block. Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it in the center. Each of these clearly doesn't not represent the block. Your types of choices, made over and over, create a layout that is a personal reflection of your choice processes that is individual to you and how you think. Did you see the second the? Chip,You are dodging my question about prototypical correct modeling.Now due to my combat experience in 'Nam I will see that that fig tree and what lays beyond that.. Contrary to what Andre said I was not train for close obersevation..That came by the need to survive in a hostile environment...Observation of details is natural..You may not realize that but,try this..Every time you walk out of a store glance around and see what the eyes tells the brain.Your natural instincts will kick in if you will allow it to and sharpen what you are seeing..Even the American Indian knew that long before he met the white man . Larry Conductor. Summerset Ry. "Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!" Reply SpaceMouse Member sinceDecember 2004 From: Rimrock, Arizona 11,251 posts Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 12:42 PM Brakie, Could you repeat the question? Also, could you answer whether or not you saw the second the? A bird in the the hand. Chip Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos. Reply CNJ831 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 3,150 posts Posted by CNJ831 on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by selector There is too much learning that goes on in a person's life to consign them to neophyte (and therefore uneducated) status on a dimension such as the impressionistic value or attributes of a hobby such as ours. I know that Chip has taught at the college level, so he's no stoop, and the same can be said for me, if I may. While we may not know much about the integral technical requirements of the hobby, we are able to express our understanding of the expressiveness that we see in what others present to us. If indeed so astute, you would both be well aware that persons entering a new field of endeavor are typically overly enthusiastic concerning it, as well as bring full of misconceptions about it. As one becomes steadily more educated in that field, they begin to appreciate the realities of that particular pursuit and their zealot attitude and misconceptions are replaced with an understanding of facts that they were unaware of at first. The result is a final realization that they actually knew very little about how and why things work the way they do in that field at the outset. If you don't understand the hobby in detail first, then appreciating expressiveness as applied to it is not necessarily straight forward. CNJ831 Reply CNJ831 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 3,150 posts Posted by CNJ831 on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:42 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger CNJ831 - Are you Vic Roseman? Just curious. No. But I consider myself a longtime student of his. I long studied his methods, concepts and efforts in the area of model photography. During the early 1990's I also carried out a correspondence with him on subjects like scene composition, image blending and even optical design. I went on to create my own special extreme DOF lens systems and modeled my own ultra close-up, award winning work on his concepts. CNJ831 Reply Roadtrp Member sinceNovember 2003 760 posts Posted by Roadtrp on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:51 PM [bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow] -Jerry Reply BRAKIE Member sinceOctober 2001 From: OH 17,574 posts Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:59 PM Chip,One more time. Now add the the serious modelers that model right down to the tree stump by the track maintenance shed by doing what is called prototype modeling how are these modelers expressing their selves?. And yes I saw the second the..Stevie Wonder could see it.Terri Gibbs could see it as well as Ronnie Milsap.It sticks out like a sore thumb when you read the words..[:D] Larry Conductor. Summerset Ry. "Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!" Reply SpaceMouse Member sinceDecember 2004 From: Rimrock, Arizona 11,251 posts Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 3:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 If indeed so astute, you would both be well aware that persons entering a new field of endeavor are typically overly enthusiastic concerning it, as well as bring full of misconceptions about it. As one becomes steadily more educated in that field, they begin to appreciate the realities of that particular pursuit and their zealot attitude and misconceptions are replaced with an understanding of facts that they were unaware of at first. The result is a final realization that they actually knew very little about how and why things work the way they do in that field at the outset. If you don't understand the hobby in detail first, then appreciating expressiveness as applied to it is not necessarily straight forward. CNJ831 As Crandall pointed out, we are not talking about technical aspects of the hobby, rather we are talking about principles of expression which, by virtue of having toured the academic circuit lecturing, have a tad of knowledge there of. These principles apply whether you are doing abstract art or empirical studies. You bring to the table your mental outlook and you can't change that. You can't write something, paint something, build something without altering it to conform to your world view. Chip Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos. Reply SpaceMouse Member sinceDecember 2004 From: Rimrock, Arizona 11,251 posts Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 3:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE Chip,One more time. Now add the the serious modelers that model right down to the tree stump by the track maintenance shed by doing what is called prototype modeling how are these modelers expressing their selves?. And yes I saw the second the..Stevie Wonder could see it.Terri Gibbs could see it as well as Ronnie Milsap.It sticks out like a sore thumb when you read the words..[:D] I directly answered you by example. You express your self by the choices you make. Why do you choose the stump over the tree. Why do you paint the shed grey instead of silver? Do you choose a metal roof or shingles? QUOTE: There are 12 buildings on a block that you want to model. 11 of them are easy to model, you can get close replicas of them at any LHS. The last building, the second from the end, is architecturally different and clashes with the rest of the block. Furthermore, it has awkward angles. You have room for 3 buildings on your layout. Do you choose 3 easy buildings? Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it at the end of the block. Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it in the center. Each of these clearly doesn't not represent the block. Your types of choices, made over and over, create a layout that is a personal reflection of your choice processes that is individual to you and how you think. Clearly here, if you choose any of the options above and stick to that type of generalization, you are determining your style on what you choose to delete from reality as well as what you choose to show. Either way, your choices reflect who you are and you express yourself through those choices. Chip Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos. Reply 1234567»Last » Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online chatanuga see all » Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up
Originally posted by SpaceMouse Originally posted by CNJ831 Chip, IMO there's nothing very deep or philosophical about the hobby for most of us, nor about most of our model railroads. CNJ831 You When you've been in the hobby far longer and grow to have more experience, you will find that most modelers tend to copy parts of other well known modeler's styles to create their own layouts...which is why sales of MR have been a success for so long. There's no mumbo jumbo involved in the building of most layouts. CNJ831 This is patronizing. There is too much learning that goes on in a person's life to consign them to neophyte (and therefore uneducated) status on a dimension such as the impressionistic value or attributes of a hobby such as ours. I know that Chip has taught at the college level, so he's no stoop, and the same can be said for me, if I may. While we may not know much about the integral technical requirements of the hobby, we are able to express our understanding of the expressiveness that we see in what others present to us. We are all heuristically programmed, so we 'make' our own discoveries based on what we sense and based upon our learning and preferences. As I said earlier, reality lies in singularity. Each of us creates our own, by definition, and where there is transferrence and generalizability, we encounter brief moments of 'recognition' of what others call their reality. It is this that generates the impetus of the hobby, the recognition that each of us gets, from time to time, in 'seeing' the reality of others. That means that some of us do not recognize our ourselves (our reality) in the works of those whom other modelers hold in high regard. -Crandell Reply SpaceMouse Member sinceDecember 2004 From: Rimrock, Arizona 11,251 posts Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 11:53 AM The examples you give fit my argument. You see the mines because that is a matter of survival. You don't see the mushroom next to it because it is not important. You see the differences in engines because that is important to you, but you don't see that the tree behind the engine is a fig tree. What is important is your reality, what is not is deleted, generalized or distorted. Let's put it another way. There are 12 buildings on a block that you want to model. 11 of them are easy to model, you can get close replicas of them at any LHS. The last building, the second from the end, is architecturally different and clashes with the rest of the block. Furthermore, it has awkward angles. You have room for 3 buildings on your layout. Do you choose 3 easy buildings? Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it at the end of the block. Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it in the center. Each of these clearly doesn't not represent the block. Your types of choices, made over and over, create a layout that is a personal reflection of your choice processes that is individual to you and how you think. Did you see the second the? Chip Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos. Reply andrechapelon Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: California & Maine 3,848 posts Posted by andrechapelon on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 11:55 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE Sorry,Chip I don't buy what you say about observation.IF that was true I would have been KIA in 'Nam by not seeing trip wires,ambushes and other surprises.. The power of observation is keen this is how we observe danger and how we survive in everyday life. Wasn't for keen observation we could not tell the difference between locomotive phases by just looking at the prototype and we would not see the finer details.Now add the the serious modelers that model right down to the tree stump by the track maintenance shed by doing what is called prototype modeling how are these modelers expressing their selves?. Brakie, You saw the trip wires, ambushes and other surprises because seeing them not only was important, it was vital. IOW, you paid attention to those details because it was important and you were trained to look out for them. Chip's right, the mind can't encompass all it sees. Unless something is important for some reason, we tend to tune things out or at most let them ride at the edge of conciousness. If we focus on observing something because it's important, we automatically lose focus on something else. Minor example: I was driving on I-40 westbound just west of Winslow, AZ. Since the BNSF tracks are close by, I was looking for trains. My wife, who wasn't paying attention to the tracks spotted a truck that had a small steam locomotive and a passenger car on the trailer. I completely missed it as I drove by. If it hadn't been for my wife mentioning it and my slowing down to let the truck pass, I never would have seen it. I was only paying sufficient attention to traffic to ensure that I didn't get into trouble. IOW, I saw the truck as just part of the traffic and paid no attention whatsoever to the load until my wife spoke up. Andre It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip. Reply bcammack Member sinceDecember 2002 From: US 403 posts Posted by bcammack on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 11:57 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse I would humbly suggest that your layout is your fantasy. While it more steeped in your version of reality than maybe someone else, you still choose what is included and what is excluded. Selios saw the depression as a dark time and represented it with darkly weathered buildings. It is too dark for my tastes, but then it has the effect he intended. Allen sprinkled his layout with the absurd. I suppose he saw life that way. Perhaps in the same way Koester's representation of reality, his fantasy, brings order to an otherwise chaotic life, and it is his way of making sense of things. A modeler's pike is a representation of who they are, an extension of how they see things and how they think. It can be an expression of how they wi***hings would be. (Koester) Or it can be interpretation of how they see things. (Furlow.) Nonsense. For the vast majority of model railroaders the hobby is not about deep personal philosophies or Freudian interpretations. It's about attempting to replicate the real world to the best our abilities...often today based on reseaching a prototype. While some layouts may be so far off the mark as to be considered "fantasy-based", this is more often a matter of lack of modeling talent than it is one of intention...or is perhaps to cover-up such shortcomings and make it look harmlessly "cute". CNJ831 While not specifically about deep personal philosophies or Freudian interpretations, the end result cannot be unaffected by those things, acknowledged or not. The "real world" is a slippery thing and subject to interpretation through the unique matrix constructed of our own personal life experiences. Sellios models his perception of the Depression. Allen interjected the whimsey that he perceived in life that others seemed to forget to appreciate. What it all boils down to is, "Do you prefer abstract art? Impressionism? Photo-realism?" If we all perceived the world the same way, there would be no reason for different forms of artistic, creative expression. As the philosopher/cartoonist B. Kliban once wrote, "One man's mate is another man's person." Happy New Year, ladies and gentlemen. Regards, Brett C. Cammack Holly Hill, FL Reply NevinW Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Nevada 825 posts Posted by NevinW on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 12:12 PM Yesterday I happened to pick up and old model Railroader from 1997-1998 that had a John Allen retrospective in it and I looked at those pictures again. I have to admit that this guy could do some serious modeling and photography. Those photos looked beautiful. When one considers that many of these photos were taken in the 1960's, I am very impressed. He was also doing real operations on that railroad when most modelers were just trying to get it around the track without derailing. Certainly, all one has to do is pick up any Shortline and Narrow Gauge Gazette to see modeling and photography that IMO is better than John Allen, but compared to what was the standard in the 1960's, John Allen had clearly talent. He set the standard and was ahead of his time. I have also read that he regretted some of his more whimsical components to his modeling such as the silly name and the dinosaurs as he got older and wished that he had taken the railroad in a more prototypical direction. Sometimes people forget that what we are talking about here is taste, and tastes vary and taste changes over time. Today's TK inspired prototypically exact duplicate of the real world maybe considered passe in 20 years (even though I fully admit that those are the kind of railroads I like best). Remember garden railroads are where much of the growth in the hobby is these days and most of those are not duplicates of a specific prototype. - Nevin Reply BRAKIE Member sinceOctober 2001 From: OH 17,574 posts Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 12:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse The examples you give fit my argument. You see the mines because that is a matter of survival. You don't see the mushroom next to it because it is not important. You see the differences in engines because that is important to you, but you don't see that the tree behind the engine is a fig tree. What is important is your reality, what is not is deleted, generalized or distorted. Let's put it another way. There are 12 buildings on a block that you want to model. 11 of them are easy to model, you can get close replicas of them at any LHS. The last building, the second from the end, is architecturally different and clashes with the rest of the block. Furthermore, it has awkward angles. You have room for 3 buildings on your layout. Do you choose 3 easy buildings? Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it at the end of the block. Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it in the center. Each of these clearly doesn't not represent the block. Your types of choices, made over and over, create a layout that is a personal reflection of your choice processes that is individual to you and how you think. Did you see the second the? Chip,You are dodging my question about prototypical correct modeling.Now due to my combat experience in 'Nam I will see that that fig tree and what lays beyond that.. Contrary to what Andre said I was not train for close obersevation..That came by the need to survive in a hostile environment...Observation of details is natural..You may not realize that but,try this..Every time you walk out of a store glance around and see what the eyes tells the brain.Your natural instincts will kick in if you will allow it to and sharpen what you are seeing..Even the American Indian knew that long before he met the white man . Larry Conductor. Summerset Ry. "Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!" Reply SpaceMouse Member sinceDecember 2004 From: Rimrock, Arizona 11,251 posts Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 12:42 PM Brakie, Could you repeat the question? Also, could you answer whether or not you saw the second the? A bird in the the hand. Chip Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos. Reply CNJ831 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 3,150 posts Posted by CNJ831 on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by selector There is too much learning that goes on in a person's life to consign them to neophyte (and therefore uneducated) status on a dimension such as the impressionistic value or attributes of a hobby such as ours. I know that Chip has taught at the college level, so he's no stoop, and the same can be said for me, if I may. While we may not know much about the integral technical requirements of the hobby, we are able to express our understanding of the expressiveness that we see in what others present to us. If indeed so astute, you would both be well aware that persons entering a new field of endeavor are typically overly enthusiastic concerning it, as well as bring full of misconceptions about it. As one becomes steadily more educated in that field, they begin to appreciate the realities of that particular pursuit and their zealot attitude and misconceptions are replaced with an understanding of facts that they were unaware of at first. The result is a final realization that they actually knew very little about how and why things work the way they do in that field at the outset. If you don't understand the hobby in detail first, then appreciating expressiveness as applied to it is not necessarily straight forward. CNJ831 Reply CNJ831 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 3,150 posts Posted by CNJ831 on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:42 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger CNJ831 - Are you Vic Roseman? Just curious. No. But I consider myself a longtime student of his. I long studied his methods, concepts and efforts in the area of model photography. During the early 1990's I also carried out a correspondence with him on subjects like scene composition, image blending and even optical design. I went on to create my own special extreme DOF lens systems and modeled my own ultra close-up, award winning work on his concepts. CNJ831 Reply Roadtrp Member sinceNovember 2003 760 posts Posted by Roadtrp on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:51 PM [bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow] -Jerry Reply BRAKIE Member sinceOctober 2001 From: OH 17,574 posts Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:59 PM Chip,One more time. Now add the the serious modelers that model right down to the tree stump by the track maintenance shed by doing what is called prototype modeling how are these modelers expressing their selves?. And yes I saw the second the..Stevie Wonder could see it.Terri Gibbs could see it as well as Ronnie Milsap.It sticks out like a sore thumb when you read the words..[:D] Larry Conductor. Summerset Ry. "Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!" Reply SpaceMouse Member sinceDecember 2004 From: Rimrock, Arizona 11,251 posts Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 3:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 If indeed so astute, you would both be well aware that persons entering a new field of endeavor are typically overly enthusiastic concerning it, as well as bring full of misconceptions about it. As one becomes steadily more educated in that field, they begin to appreciate the realities of that particular pursuit and their zealot attitude and misconceptions are replaced with an understanding of facts that they were unaware of at first. The result is a final realization that they actually knew very little about how and why things work the way they do in that field at the outset. If you don't understand the hobby in detail first, then appreciating expressiveness as applied to it is not necessarily straight forward. CNJ831 As Crandall pointed out, we are not talking about technical aspects of the hobby, rather we are talking about principles of expression which, by virtue of having toured the academic circuit lecturing, have a tad of knowledge there of. These principles apply whether you are doing abstract art or empirical studies. You bring to the table your mental outlook and you can't change that. You can't write something, paint something, build something without altering it to conform to your world view. Chip Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos. Reply SpaceMouse Member sinceDecember 2004 From: Rimrock, Arizona 11,251 posts Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 3:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE Chip,One more time. Now add the the serious modelers that model right down to the tree stump by the track maintenance shed by doing what is called prototype modeling how are these modelers expressing their selves?. And yes I saw the second the..Stevie Wonder could see it.Terri Gibbs could see it as well as Ronnie Milsap.It sticks out like a sore thumb when you read the words..[:D] I directly answered you by example. You express your self by the choices you make. Why do you choose the stump over the tree. Why do you paint the shed grey instead of silver? Do you choose a metal roof or shingles? QUOTE: There are 12 buildings on a block that you want to model. 11 of them are easy to model, you can get close replicas of them at any LHS. The last building, the second from the end, is architecturally different and clashes with the rest of the block. Furthermore, it has awkward angles. You have room for 3 buildings on your layout. Do you choose 3 easy buildings? Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it at the end of the block. Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it in the center. Each of these clearly doesn't not represent the block. Your types of choices, made over and over, create a layout that is a personal reflection of your choice processes that is individual to you and how you think. Clearly here, if you choose any of the options above and stick to that type of generalization, you are determining your style on what you choose to delete from reality as well as what you choose to show. Either way, your choices reflect who you are and you express yourself through those choices. Chip Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos. Reply 1234567»Last » Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online chatanuga see all » Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up
Originally posted by CNJ831 Chip, IMO there's nothing very deep or philosophical about the hobby for most of us, nor about most of our model railroads. CNJ831 You When you've been in the hobby far longer and grow to have more experience, you will find that most modelers tend to copy parts of other well known modeler's styles to create their own layouts...which is why sales of MR have been a success for so long. There's no mumbo jumbo involved in the building of most layouts. CNJ831
QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE Sorry,Chip I don't buy what you say about observation.IF that was true I would have been KIA in 'Nam by not seeing trip wires,ambushes and other surprises.. The power of observation is keen this is how we observe danger and how we survive in everyday life. Wasn't for keen observation we could not tell the difference between locomotive phases by just looking at the prototype and we would not see the finer details.Now add the the serious modelers that model right down to the tree stump by the track maintenance shed by doing what is called prototype modeling how are these modelers expressing their selves?.
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse I would humbly suggest that your layout is your fantasy. While it more steeped in your version of reality than maybe someone else, you still choose what is included and what is excluded. Selios saw the depression as a dark time and represented it with darkly weathered buildings. It is too dark for my tastes, but then it has the effect he intended. Allen sprinkled his layout with the absurd. I suppose he saw life that way. Perhaps in the same way Koester's representation of reality, his fantasy, brings order to an otherwise chaotic life, and it is his way of making sense of things. A modeler's pike is a representation of who they are, an extension of how they see things and how they think. It can be an expression of how they wi***hings would be. (Koester) Or it can be interpretation of how they see things. (Furlow.) Nonsense. For the vast majority of model railroaders the hobby is not about deep personal philosophies or Freudian interpretations. It's about attempting to replicate the real world to the best our abilities...often today based on reseaching a prototype. While some layouts may be so far off the mark as to be considered "fantasy-based", this is more often a matter of lack of modeling talent than it is one of intention...or is perhaps to cover-up such shortcomings and make it look harmlessly "cute". CNJ831
QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse The examples you give fit my argument. You see the mines because that is a matter of survival. You don't see the mushroom next to it because it is not important. You see the differences in engines because that is important to you, but you don't see that the tree behind the engine is a fig tree. What is important is your reality, what is not is deleted, generalized or distorted. Let's put it another way. There are 12 buildings on a block that you want to model. 11 of them are easy to model, you can get close replicas of them at any LHS. The last building, the second from the end, is architecturally different and clashes with the rest of the block. Furthermore, it has awkward angles. You have room for 3 buildings on your layout. Do you choose 3 easy buildings? Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it at the end of the block. Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it in the center. Each of these clearly doesn't not represent the block. Your types of choices, made over and over, create a layout that is a personal reflection of your choice processes that is individual to you and how you think. Did you see the second the?
QUOTE: Originally posted by selector There is too much learning that goes on in a person's life to consign them to neophyte (and therefore uneducated) status on a dimension such as the impressionistic value or attributes of a hobby such as ours. I know that Chip has taught at the college level, so he's no stoop, and the same can be said for me, if I may. While we may not know much about the integral technical requirements of the hobby, we are able to express our understanding of the expressiveness that we see in what others present to us.
QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger CNJ831 - Are you Vic Roseman? Just curious.
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 If indeed so astute, you would both be well aware that persons entering a new field of endeavor are typically overly enthusiastic concerning it, as well as bring full of misconceptions about it. As one becomes steadily more educated in that field, they begin to appreciate the realities of that particular pursuit and their zealot attitude and misconceptions are replaced with an understanding of facts that they were unaware of at first. The result is a final realization that they actually knew very little about how and why things work the way they do in that field at the outset. If you don't understand the hobby in detail first, then appreciating expressiveness as applied to it is not necessarily straight forward. CNJ831
QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE Chip,One more time. Now add the the serious modelers that model right down to the tree stump by the track maintenance shed by doing what is called prototype modeling how are these modelers expressing their selves?. And yes I saw the second the..Stevie Wonder could see it.Terri Gibbs could see it as well as Ronnie Milsap.It sticks out like a sore thumb when you read the words..[:D]
QUOTE: There are 12 buildings on a block that you want to model. 11 of them are easy to model, you can get close replicas of them at any LHS. The last building, the second from the end, is architecturally different and clashes with the rest of the block. Furthermore, it has awkward angles. You have room for 3 buildings on your layout. Do you choose 3 easy buildings? Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it at the end of the block. Do you scratch-build the odd ball and put it in the center. Each of these clearly doesn't not represent the block. Your types of choices, made over and over, create a layout that is a personal reflection of your choice processes that is individual to you and how you think.