All Hail John Allen!

[palallin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton
I've clearly stated where I fudge and where I don't. Where am I contradicting myself? The compromises I "blithely accept" are no different to those that the majority of modellers accept. The question is, what part of my stating I don't fudge in certain areas don't you understand?

Cheers,

Mark.

Replication and fudging are incompatable, indeed mutually exclusive. In the fudging is the art. In deciding what to fudge and what to not, you determine the shape and nature of the art. Howsoever strongly you abjure art, by your very own admission you are engaged fully in it. What I do not understand is why you insist this is not the case. You seem to be quite offended that you might, even by accident, produce art. Your obvious disdain for art as model railroading is a mystery to me. It's more than a matter of taste, apparently, for your reaction is nearly hostile. You seem to believe that art is beneath you (or any other serious person), you refuse to recognize the manifest contributions of artists to the endeavor, and you balk at according respect to anyone whose views might not coincide completely with your own.

The irony is that, as a glance at your pics will demonstrate, you're a fair artist, reasonably competent in the techniques with a decent sense of how to translate reality into art. I think it a pity that you cannot (or will not) acknowledge your own strengths, rather insisting on something that not only is not, but cannot be.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon

I can't speak for others, but I'm interested in model rairoads/railways wherever they're found.
I may be an SP fan, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate an NSB, DB, SNCF, NZGR, NSWGR, NS, OeBB or FS based layout.

Good for you, Andre. You'd surely realise from my posts here and in other forums that my tastes in railways are at least as catholic as yours, if not more so. So I'll respond by asking which New South Wales or New Zealand modellers do you rate?

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dwRavenstar


Conclusion reached and verified: this newton character is nothing but a flamer who turns every general statement made into an attack upon himself.

Don't be disingenuous, DW. You posted comments that were specifically directed at me to attack me - so I responded in kind. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

QUOTE: I can already hear that squishing sound when he starts stomping his foot in that pair of urine soaked Dr. Denton's.

??? What nonsense are you on about now?

QUOTE: I've better things to do than provide this fool a stage for his egotistical rant.
Would like to see proof that he even has a pike though.

This fool's posted photos of his current modular project. I'd love to see proof of your work. [}:)]

Cheerio,

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger

QUOTE: But I'll hazard a guess that the only names you'd recognise are those from the US.

Snippy generalization about Americans once again noted.

Large chip on shoulder noted as well.[:)]

"Snippy generalization"? No. It's a simple statement of fact. Some of the modellers I hold in high regard are locals who have no web presence and haven't been published. So I'd hazard a guess that you and Dave Kelly wouldn't recognise their names. Others are only well known in UK finesale circles, again I doubt that many here would know of them. If you regard that as snippy generalization, your skin is far too thin.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Mark N.
How about posting some of your work?

Here is what I currently have on hand...




Chitetsu module, looking towards station building. Ex-Tobu Rly. and ex-Hokuriku Rly. multiple units.



Chitetsu module, looking towards depot. Ex-Seibu Rly. Baldwin steeplecab loco and ex-Hokuriku Rly. MU.



Chitetsu module,looking towards station from level crossing. Chitetsu MU and ex-Hokuriku Rly. MU.



Chitetsu module, looking down on depot. Roof is removable to show interior detail of engine shed and workshop.



Chitetsu module, street scene showing grocery store.



Chitetsu module, street side of station building.

The module is 1700mm by 235mm, and is built to HOj scale - 1/80th on 16.5mm gauge track. HOj is commonly used in Japan to represent 3'6" gauge prototypes. It has a reasonable amount of commercial support, so it isn't the sole preserve of scratchbuilders.

The module itself is constructed on a welded and riveted aluminium frame topped with ply. Blue extruded foam is used for landforms, closed cell foam for the roadbed. The track is handlaid, which I won't be doing again. The next module will use commercial track components. The catenary is still under construction, in these views there is no overhead installed. Powere and control is via NCE DCC, using a variety of decoders, including some ESU Loksound examples with electric loco sound files.

The rollingstock is a mixture of kitbashed, kitbuilt and scratchbuilt. The ex-Hokuriku Rly. multiple unit is scratchbuilt, it has a body made of acrylic sheet and ABS plastic instead of the more usual styrene. Most of the mu cars are powered by Australian-made "Black Beetle" power trucks, a more modern replacement for theold Tenshodo SPUD.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Mark,
Who do you consider to be the "greats" of model railroading?

QUOTE: I don't think there are "greats" in the sense that posters to this thread have intended. The whole idea is far too subjective, as this thread has shown. There are many modellers whose work I admire, and I am inspired by. But I'll hazard a guess that the only names you'd recognise are those from the US. I'll post a list when I've had a chance to think about who I'd include in it.

In no particular order, some US modellers whose work I think is impressive:

Bill Darnaby, Mont Switzer, Al Armitage, Bob Smaus, Jonathan Jones, Blair Koostra, Jack Ozanich, Ben King, John Nehrich, Richard Hendrickson, Ted Culotta, Fred Lagno, Bob Hegge.

There are others, but you get the idea.

Cheerio,

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by palallin

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

So for the record, I'm not claiming that I use scale thickness materials, or prototypical track fastenings, or any other similarly unfeasible methods or techniques. I happily accept compromises in these areas without question.

What I am doing is modelling a small location to scale in the sense that all of the distances, building dimensions and locations, track geometry, spacing and curve radius are scaled from the prototype, without condensation, selective compression or any other fudging. It can easily be done, and is frequently done. You may have seen mention in Model Railroader of a concept they call "Layout Design Elements"? That's basically what I'm doing.

All the best,

Mark.

You contradict yourself. You are most certainly "fudging," for that is exactly what those compromises your blithely accept are: fudging. The question is not whether to fudge but what sort of fudges to make.

I've clearly stated where I fudge and where I don't. Where am I contradicting myself? The compromises I "blithely accept" are no different to those that the majority of modellers accept. The question is, what part of my stating I don't fudge in certain areas don't you understand?

Cheers,

Mark.

[palallin]

"Regardless of your personal interests in railroading, I'll wager that you sense that there's an element of art in what we do as hobbyists. Whether you consider the Gorre and Daphetid as a remarkable, pioneering model railroad or a fanciful production that had too many bridges strung up the side of a canyon--I've heard both opinions--I'm sure you firmly grasp the obvious fact that John allen was an artist. Anyone who witnessed such a railroad would have to acknowledge the skill and talent of its creator.

"We'e not all artists of John's caliber. Fortunately, we don't need to be to create model railroads that are not only worthy hobby endeavors but clear indications of the way we've chosen to spend a significant portion of our leisure time."

Tony Koester
"Trains of Thought"
Model Railroader
September 1990
Page 109

[selector]

[B)], indeed, and point well taken. I sense that this thread has begun to slip into the night. Good while it lasted.

Thanks, Chip, and all contributors, whichever position you took.

-Crandell

[dwRavenstar]

Well stated and easily agreed with Sir Mouse. [B)]

[SpaceMouse]

Crandall and R Star

I think there are a lot of us that would qualify to be cra***est dummies.

[dwRavenstar]

Selector,

Indeed you did. But, just like I follow my personal path in deciding what gets done on the railroad model I need to follow it when finally ceasing to spar with certain folks.

In all he says and does, newton may well be right. So said of the flipside.

Ravenstar

[andrechapelon]

Mark Newton :

There are many modellers whose work I admire, and I am inspired by. But I'll hazard a guess that the only names you'd recognise are those from the US. I'll post a list when I've had a chance to think about who I'd include in it.

Ta-ta,

Mark.

You mean like Canadians Jack Work and W. Gibson Kennedy?

Or the late Rolf Ertmer in Germany whose layout "Altenbeken" appeared in MIBA many times?

Then of course there's that pair of great Danes. Pelle Soeborg and Carsten Lundsten.

Peter Denney, C.J. Freezer and Iain Rice in the UK.

Of course there are more, but those are the ones that come immediately to mind.

I can't speak for others, but I'm interested in model rairoads/railways wherever they're found.

Interestingly enough, this one http://www.lolkebijlsma.com/layout.html can now be found in San Jose, CA.

I may be an SP fan, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate an NSB, DB, SNCF, NZGR, NSWGR, NS, OeBB or FS based layout.

Andre

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dwRavenstar

Conclusion reached and verified: this newton character is nothing but a flamer who turns every general statement made into an attack upon himself.

I can already hear that squishing sound when he starts stomping his foot in that pair of urine soaked Dr. Denton's.

I've better things to do than provide this fool a stage for his egotistical rant.

Would like to see proof that he even has a pike though.

Ravenstar

I reached these conclusions long ago, and said as much.

[dwRavenstar]

Conclusion reached and verified: this newton character is nothing but a flamer who turns every general statement made into an attack upon himself.

I can already hear that squishing sound when he starts stomping his foot in that pair of urine soaked Dr. Denton's.

I've better things to do than provide this fool a stage for his egotistical rant.

Would like to see proof that he even has a pike though.

Ravenstar

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: But I'll hazard a guess that the only names you'd recognise are those from the US.

Snippy generalization about Americans once again noted.

[SpaceMouse]

Mark N.

How about posting some of your work?

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Mark,
Who do you consider to be the "greats" of model railroading?

I don't think there are "greats" in the sense that posters to this thread have intended. The whole idea is far too subjective, as this thread has shown.

There are many modellers whose work I admire, and I am inspired by. But I'll hazard a guess that the only names you'd recognise are those from the US. I'll post a list when I've had a chance to think about who I'd include in it.

Ta-ta,

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dwRavenstar

You've successfully raised the bar regarding extraordinary conceit by implying that since you are actively and solely involved in precise recreation of a specific scene and moment you are possessing stronger technical skills than some others.

Stop carrying on like a big girl's blouse, and settle down. You misunderstood what I meant when i used the word "conceit". Consult a dictionary and you'll see what I mean.

As for possessing stronger technical skills than some others, yes, I do. What of it?
Are there not areas where your skills are better or more developed than others?

QUOTE: I don't feel that I have the right to dictate methods to anyone but myself and I still believe that each of us does what makes us happy in the privacy of our own home.

Have I attempted to dictate methods to anyone else? No. So what are you on about?

QUOTE: The finished product is an expression of desire and not a yardstick to judge skills and techniques or the lack of same.

I'm not sure what you intended to convey with this florid phrase - "expression of desire"? I think you're talking rubbish. The finished product is primarily an expression of the skills and techniques of the builder. It's a perfectly valid yardstick to judge them by. How else would you judge a modeller? How else could people determine that, for example, John Allen was the greatest modeller of all time?

QUOTE: Often one attacks to keep the opponent from doing the same. Make them defensive in order to avoid the need to defend. It seems to be a display of insecurity.

Often one pretends to have some deep psychological insight into one's opponent, when all one has is a weak or invalid argument.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bcammack

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bcammack

"You don't have to be creative to have a realistic model railroad. There are techniques and you don't have to be an artist, just a technician."

I think that realism resonates with those who do not have a strong creative side. I think that creativity can be cultivated, however.

LOL! What an extraordinary conceit.

But that's okay - I often think that artistic modelling appeals to those who aren't strong on technique.

Mark.

Being a student of human nature, I just call 'em as I see 'em and that's how I see myself, frankly. Haven't an artistic bone in my body. That's why I appreciated Barrows' latest iteration of the Cat Mountain & Santa Fe when everyone else was spitting nails over it.

The minimalist, no ballast or scenery version? I very much liked it too. Like you, I'm not artistic. I'm firmly in the technician camp. The other thing that appeals to me about Barrow is his non-conformist attitude.

QUOTE: I think that art requires technique, personally, but it would be flawed logic to presume that because art requires technique that technicians must be artists.

Agreed.

[SpaceMouse]

Frank Ellison's the one that built the Delta Lines.

[cjcrescent]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman

Delta Lines (O scale) was Frank Ellison.. If I'm not mistaken, a theater set designer who was at least one of the first to put fourth the idea that the model railroad as a whole was a play.. He wrote a series of articles about his concepts methods and strategies in the early 1950s called, again if I remember correctly, "The Magic Of Model Railroading".. The series was later published in a book that can be had on ebay sometimes for less than $10. I heard John Armstrong state on the Allen Keller video of his Canandagua Southern that Frank Ellison didn't like HO scalers.. Just flat out didn't like the people.. Didn't say why though and it may just be O scale myth.. Frank's home was in New Orleans so even if the layout still existed, it would be likely gone now.

Jeff

Quite right about Frank in that he was a theatre designer. He was "famous" around NO for that. But as to not liking HO gaugers, I was told he was one of the friendliest men you could ever meet, by a friend of his I knew in Mobile, AL. Typical 'Nawlens resident'. Loved his food and his jazz. I was also told that after he passed, the layout was sold to an O scaler who made a commitment to rebuild the layout. The layout was taken apart and stored in 8-10 pieces in a small warehouse. Last I heard this man has also died and the family, not understanding his compulsion with what was stored in the warehouse, chopped it up and sent it to the landfill. I haven't heard what happened to the equipment. I do not know if this is correct or not. This was told to me over twenty years ago and Ellison had died in the early-mid 1960's.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon

And apparently there was one wag who followed Allen bowing and scraping while Allen muttered, "Get away, get away".

Andre

I don't care who you are. Now that's funny right there.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

This thread began with a question concerning anyone having a tribute to John Allen on their layouts. I don't have one, but the last several pages of this thread has given me a thought.

How about a huge street protest consisting of some folks trying to hang John Allen in effigy with an equally large crowd trying to "rescue" the target? It can be complete with various signs being carried by protestors of each side ("Hail the Wizard" "Down with Caricature" "Is it art?" "Realism over everything"). We can have a guy in the middle trying to make sure things don't get out of hand (perhaps he should look like Bergie).

From what I've read, this would be something along the lines of art imitating life. At NMRA regional meetings, some of Allen's friends would picket for and some against "The Great Poohbah". And apparently there was one wag who followed Allen bowing and scraping while Allen muttered, "Get away, get away".

Andre

[palallin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

So for the record, I'm not claiming that I use scale thickness materials, or prototypical track fastenings, or any other similarly unfeasible methods or techniques. I happily accept compromises in these areas without question.

What I am doing is modelling a small location to scale in the sense that all of the distances, building dimensions and locations, track geometry, spacing and curve radius are scaled from the prototype, without condensation, selective compression or any other fudging. It can easily be done, and is frequently done. You may have seen mention in Model Railroader of a concept they call "Layout Design Elements"? That's basically what I'm doing.

All the best,

Mark.

You contradict yourself. You are most certainly "fudging," for that is exactly what those compromises your blithely accept are: fudging. The question is not whether to fudge but what sort of fudges to make.

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Maybe I'm weird or wired differently or just don't get it. I admire the work of John Allen. I admire the work of Bruce Chubb (technical guru). I admire the work of Tony Koester. Allen McClernard (sp?), Jim Hediger, George Selios, Malcom Furlow, Art Curren (kitbashing god!), Bob Hayden, the guy with the Delta Lines (forget the name) and a host of others. What puts them in esteem in my mind is that each accomplished a heck of a lot in this hobby and each is/was willing to share their talent, experience and techniques. These guys didn't make a whole lot by writing their articles (probably less than minimum wage) but did so to help the rest of us. Isn't that worth something?

Delta Lines (O scale) was Frank Ellison.. If I'm not mistaken, a theater set designer who was at least one of the first to put fourth the idea that the model railroad as a whole was a play.. He wrote a series of articles about his concepts methods and strategies in the early 1950s called, again if I remember correctly, "The Magic Of Model Railroading".. The series was later published in a book that can be had on ebay sometimes for less than $10. I heard John Armstrong state on the Allen Keller video of his Canandagua Southern that Frank Ellison didn't like HO scalers.. Just flat out didn't like the people.. Didn't say why though and it may just be O scale myth.. Frank's home was in New Orleans so even if the layout still existed, it would be likely gone now.

Jeff

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock


Dave your so right some complain just to complain, had a guy one day say darn rain, sun came out the next day and then it was darn sun's too bright. Cant win I tells ya !Ya just cant win.

Sometimes I read so much complaining that it just plumb wears me out and I can't read any more. But so I don't have to get off the forum, I just hit the mute button and I can't hear it any more.

[route_rock]

Amen one and all! That HO scale rope aint going to work well but I will meet you in Effigy on the second tuesday of next week!

Dave your so right some complain just to complain, had a guy one day say darn rain, sun came out the next day and then it was darn sun's too bright. Cant win I tells ya !Ya just cant win.

[davekelly]

Space,

I agree. Although my style of modeling is not the same as some of the "greats" I mentioned above - that doesn't mean that I can't consider them one of the greats. Of course perhaps it is because we are exchanging thoughts on this faceless internet. We can say things about folks that we would never say in person. On the other hand maybe there are folks here that would walk up to a neighbor, look at their new automobile and say "I see you bought a piece of crap - you should have bought a Rolls."

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Maybe I'm weird or wired differently or just don't get it. I admire the work of John Allen. I admire the work of Bruce Chubb (technical guru). I admire the work of Tony Koester. Allen McClernard (sp?), Jim Hediger, George Selios, Malcom Furlow, Art Curren (kitbashing god!), Bob Hayden, the guy with the Delta Lines (forget the name) and a host of others. What puts them in esteem in my mind is that each accomplished a heck of a lot in this hobby and each is/was willing to share their talent, experience and techniques. These guys didn't make a whole lot by writing their articles (probably less than minimum wage) but did so to help the rest of us. Isn't that worth something?

Of course it is. There's those that are doers and there are critics. Now don't get me wrong critics are necessary. But one job is easier than the other and it's easy to forget that.