QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Ever seen a $500+ R/C plane take off on its maiden flight, get airborne, roll over and auger straight into the pavement completely disintegrating in a cloud of powered balsa wood? You'll never say this hobby is to expensive after looking at other hobbies.
Five out of four people have trouble with fractions. -AnonymousThree may keep a secret, if two of them are dead. -Benjamin Franklin "You don't have to be Jeeves to love butlers, but it helps." (Followers of Levi's Real Jewish Rye will get this one) -Ed K "A potted watch never boils." -Ed Kowal If it's not fun, why do it ? -Ben & Jerry
QUOTE: Originally posted by edkowal With all of the weeping and gnashing of teeth about modellers being priced out of the hobby, I think it might be relevant to ask the following: How many here in this discussion thread actually know of someone who has been priced OUT of the hobby? And by that I mean just that, someone who gave up and no longer participates in any way, as a result of prices being too high. I am assuming that everyone that has posted a response here is still an active model railroader.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue I don't think modelers are being priced out of the hobby. But they are definatly being "Ready to Runed" out of the hobby. Current Walthers Catalong. Almost Every Locomotive, half the freight cars and 1/3 the building kits were Simply open the box and set on the layout. Next thing you know pre made Model Rairlaod Modules where all you have to do is bolt them together will be sold will become main stream. By then we will have to stop calling it model rairlaoding and start calling it miniature railroading because no one will be left who actually knows how to build a model. James.
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 QUOTE: Originally posted by edkowal With all of the weeping and gnashing of teeth about modellers being priced out of the hobby, I think it might be relevant to ask the following: How many here in this discussion thread actually know of someone who has been priced OUT of the hobby? And by that I mean just that, someone who gave up and no longer participates in any way, as a result of prices being too high. I am assuming that everyone that has posted a response here is still an active model railroader. Yes, as an older hobbyist I can point to several colleagues of my generation who have totally withdrawn from the purchasing aspect of the hobby where new motive power and rolling stock are concerned...simply because of price considerations. I know that is not quite the same as leaving the hobby altogether but in an economic sense, they certainly have. I would not consider any of them "poor", yet they all express that over their long stints in the hobby they have never seen prices increase the way they have over the past decade and can not afford any new items. These guys are making do with their older Athearn or similar engines and cars and have no plans to make further purchases in the future. Likewise, I've been in the LHS twice now when individuals have come in asking about starting in the hobby and wanting to know the price of the materials necessary to construct a simple 4x8 project layout the like ones appearing in MR. After the store owner pointed out the need to purchase items of at least modest quality so that the newcomer won't be disappointed and gives a price, they left the store without comment! CNJ831
Have fun with your trains
QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Ever seen a $500+ R/C plane take off on its maiden flight, get airborne, roll over and auger straight into the pavement completely disintegrating in a cloud of powered balsa wood? You'll never say this hobby is to expensive after looking at other hobbies. Nope.. But I've seen a $500+ RC boat catch something in the prop and pull itself to the murky bottom of the lake... I really felt bad for the owner.. I'll bet that there's someone here who forgot to put his liftout bridge back in and ran his $500 brass loco off of the table and on to the floor.. It wasn't me though, Mine was a $30 Athearn GP35. It happens in all hobbies. Jeff
QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon As for those who have quit buying current production, that's their privilege, but they need some lessons in elementary manufacturing economics and a good overview of just how small the model railroad market is compared to the market for cell phones, computers, cars, etc.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon As for those who have quit buying current production, that's their privilege, but they need some lessons in elementary manufacturing economics and a good overview of just how small the model railroad market is compared to the market for cell phones, computers, cars, etc. Andre, it will be the manufacturers who need the lessons in economics in just a few years when they see their customer base dwindle to almost nil because the average hobbyists will be unable to afford their products. It happened with brass, falling from about 35% of the market share in the 1960's to probably less than 3% today (and resulting in the some brass importers transfering much of their energy into high-end plastic models to survive). You can most definitely price yourself right out of a market and that's just what will happen as more and more of the Boomers retire and drop out of the hobby because of high prices. CNJ831
QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon It's not the manufacturers who are to blame for whatever perceived wrongs are going on.
QUOTE: Mantua finally killed itself because it tried to make "collectors items" out of items where the basic tooling was in excess of 50 years old and bore (at best) only a vague resemblance to prototype. That's got to be one of the stupidest blunders in this hobby.
QUOTE: Blaming the manufacturers may make you feel better, but you're shooting at the wrong target with an obsolete weapon while wearing blinders in a dense fog. Andre
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
QUOTE: Originally posted by selector Well, I happen to agree with Andre. We ARE the market, and they provide what we tell them we'll buy. How? With our wallets. Some don't have the money, and they are the losers, but no one ever compelled a company to stay in business to satisfy customer demand at the expense of the corporation.
Jerry SP FOREVER http://photobucket.com/albums/f317/GAPPLEG/
QUOTE: Originally posted by MAbruce QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon It's not the manufacturers who are to blame for whatever perceived wrongs are going on. QUOTE: Mantua finally killed itself because it tried to make "collectors items" out of items where the basic tooling was in excess of 50 years old and bore (at best) only a vague resemblance to prototype. That's got to be one of the stupidest blunders in this hobby. So you first tell us it's not the manufactures fault for what's been going on in the industry, and then you turn around and give us an example of how a manufacturer committed one of the stupidest blunders in history???? May I suggest you re-read your posts before you hit the “post reply” button next time? QUOTE: Blaming the manufacturers may make you feel better, but you're shooting at the wrong target with an obsolete weapon while wearing blinders in a dense fog. Andre After reading your post(s), I wonder who's really in the dense fog wearing blinders firing away with a musket at an airplane?
QUOTE: Originally posted by whitman500 I think the manufacturers are caught between two opposing forces. On the one hand, there is a large number of baby boomer hobbyists that are in their peak earning years and so it makes perfect sense for the manufacturers to focus their efforts on selling expensive, high-end products liek sound-equipped locos, pre-weathered buildings, etc. The problem, however, is that catering to this market simultaneously limits the growth of the hobby since new, younger hobbyists don't have the money to buy these products. For the manufacturers the issue is that doing the right thing in the near-term could prove to be disastrous in the long-term since the big spending baby boomers will eventually grow old and pass on and there aren't enough new, younger hobbyists to replace them. I'm not trying to argue that the manufacturers are being irrational since on an NPV basis it may make sense to maximize profits for the next several years even if the result is long-term decline but for the hobby it is not a good thing in the long-term.
QUOTE: Originally posted by whitman500 I think the problem is not so much that hobby companies are gouging customers or making huge profits but rather that people's expectations about what their layout should look like has increased in recent years. With sound, DCC, photo realistic backdrops, etc., you can really make a top quality layout that looks like the real thing. Certainly that is the case with the layouts that are featured in MR. However, these layouts cost real money: tens of thousands of dollars. In the past, a rich man's layout probably didn't look a lot better than a poor man's but that gap has really widened, and I think that discourages newbies who see the layouts in the magazine and get excited and then realize to their dismay the vast financial resources that are required to meet their expectations.
QUOTE: Originally posted by whitman500 Separately, a number of people have mentioned how the startup costs for the hobby are daunting and this drives people away. One factor that may be contributing to this is the cost of tools. You see fewer and fewer people with home workshops these days and so while in the past a new hobbyist probably had a power drill, a couple of power saws, a soldering iron, etc., today many do not. I came into the hobby a year ago with nothing and had to spend probably $500-600 just to get equipped with the tools I needed to build benchwork.
QUOTE: Pendon Museum in England
QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon People get into this hobby because they're interested in trains. Nobody (and certainly not a kid) does a cost/benefit analysis comparing the relative merits of one hobby over another. If kids aren't interested in trains these days, the hobby is going to die. Period. Lower prices won't save it, nor will they bring in additional model railroaders. The Baby Boomers who now appear to be the financial backbone of the hobby were once on the poorer end of the economic spectrum and couldn't afford the higher end goodies the hobby offered at that time. When my late father was young, he was dirt poor. When he was the age I am now, he was much better off. That's the way it works for most people. You don't get to start off in the upper income brackets.
QUOTE: You're forgetting one thing. Us supposedly well heeled old codgers were once young puppies without a container in which to pass water. The hobby was just as expensive then as it is now relative to the overall cost of living and wage rates. Things weren't any better then. 35 cent a gallon gas in 1965 is roughly the equivalent of what gas sells for locally here in Monterey (about $2.21/gal at the cheapest places).There were people then at the peak of their earning years who could afford brass, just as there are people now who can afford the latest that BLI has to offer. Guess how many nice brass engines were offered as compared to new offerings of moderately priced plastic or cast metal engines.
QUOTE: Power tools are conveniences, not necessities. You can get a lot of good work done with files, razor saws, hand saws and screwdrivers while you are saving your money to buy those power tools. But you may take more time to get things done. Again, if you find it important to get it built in a hurry, then it's gonna cost ya.