Are modellers be priced out the hobby?

[railroadyoshi]

There are lots of things I want for my rr. I want a DCC w/sound F2A and a Digitrax Super Empire Builder and lots of rolling stock because it is slim in comparison to my locos. But , I need to buy track for my changing layout, details and decoder for my RDC, etc. Its a matter of prioritization, I buy what my rr needs, wait if I don't have enough to buy something yet, and hold off on the extras before work is complete on others. I recognize I can't have everything.

[Anonymous]

I do have to admit that the hobby has changed drastically over the last 20 years or so. I am now 28. I started into it all when i was like 10. Granted, my whole fleet was composed of birthday presents and christmas presents. But when you look at the technology incorporated into todays product i can see the need for increased prices. That is for certain goods. part of what drew me into the hobby was knowing that i built what was running. I had loads of athearn rolling stock and engines. I loved to put it all together and say i made that! Now, kits, besides becomming tromendously difficult to find, are very much overpriced! Lets take Walthers rolling stock for example. Now not too many order directly from walthers direct, so i won't focus on SRP's! But even then.....
45 dollars for one passenger car? I remember when i could get the same style in kit form, super detail it, paint it, and still save money! Maybe the walthers example is a bad one. So lets look at athearn. The engines from the genesis line run wonderfully. Sure they are more expensive, but the quality has improved and the incerase in out of the box details is much better. That is a price increase that is justified. But lets look at the rollling stock. 25 dollars for rolling stock? 10 years ago i was able to buy the same thing in kit form, have fun building it, and pay only 7 bucks! And honestly, i think it looked better back then also. I have such a hard time finding kits today. I would pick up a branchline kit, but they are expensive. I used to be able to walk into a hobby store with 100 dollars and walk out with a whole crapload of goodies. I would have been able to get 5 cars, an engine, and a building kit or two. Now i am lucky if i can get an engine and one passenger car. Forget about the building.
Bottom line, the price increases have pushed me from the hobby. I still enjoy working with what i have, and i do enjoy new items rolling down the main line, but all i can say is that it is just not the same. I don't feel the same pride i felt a few years ago. Now, with the new stuff, all i can say is that i pulled it out of the box all by myself instead of being able to say i built that and added all the details myself! All of the kits that are available, (still severely hard to find) are way too overpriced to enjoy! ....And i am not talking about the old stock athearn kits that places like trainworld still have. I am talking about new release items!
I am not bashing r.t.r. equiptment, i am just bashing the abandonment of kit form equiptment. ......And the rediculous pricing.

[trainfreek92]

how much do you think the LHS make when threy sell you a $$60 doller engine?? 20 30? but sometimes that engine just sits there for 7 months because it is not right on top if you think about what gos into it its fair plus the middleman my LHS buys from walthers and give a 10% percent discount for ordering from them so if they had the engine they might sell it to you for 60 but if you have to order it then it is maybe 50 so. as others have stated you can spend as little or as much $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ as you want Tim

[Anonymous]

I agree with Cox 47 and many others. Couple all the above witht he fact that many items are made in China, it does seem to me that there is a degree of Greed with someone in the supply chain.

If a NEW or RETURNING hobbyist cannot afford to get into the hobby IT WILL DIE, that's simple economics.

I myself am a returning MRR and it is VERY difficult now I am disability retired and have the time but the money is proportionally far greater then when I was younger. I don't want to start a spamming result here but that is reality.

I'm sure those of you that are established or can afford what this hobby has become are Greatful - right? I have read a posting here today that refer to elitist posters - I sure hope we don't have any here, I'd rather hope those that can afford bigger etc are busy helping train others.

I'm stuck out here in BFE and have no other MRR fans to trade with etc. and the nearest club of hobby shop is well over 100 miles away. There was a local shop that couldn't make it 50 miles away I discovered it the day it was closing its doors).

So I as many will dream and acquire/trade etc best I can but it really isn't enough to do anything much.

FWIW

[Leon Silverman]

Much as people complaint about the high price of this hobby, as long as the brass manufacturers can come out with models made in minute quantities and exorbitant prices ($2,000.00 + dollars for a fifty copy run), there will be probably little incentive for manufacturers to hold their prices down (clearance and going out of business sales, notwithstanding).

[Anonymous]

As long as people keep buying the high priced stuff... the builders will keep making it. Personally, I don't have a layout right now so, I can take the time to kitbash or detail cheaper models and make them look good (at least that is my hope :D ). Since the locomotives will not be running I do not need to waste the money on converting to DCC yet either. Once I get a place for a layout I'll be in the same boat as everyone else and buying up as much R-T-R as I can while I build and detail the layout.

What I am trying to say is that we as modelers have many options still available to us. I have seen some guys take 40 dollar locomotives and make them look like the 200 dollar R-T-R engines, it just means you have to take the time to do it. The choice for modellers right now is simple... cheap and slow (like a GE locomotive) or fast and pricey (like an EMD). I say find you niche and be happy.

As for new comers to the hobby I feel that their are plenty of options out there for them. I consider myself a new comer but, being 27 I am thinking more of the kids. Bachmann and Life Like still make the low end sets and Bachmann even makes low end locos with DCC. I think I even saw a GP50 for 50 bucks that was DCC ready. Of course it looked like crap but, it's just like everything else in life, you have to give up something to gain something else.

All in all HO modelling is probably still one of the cheaper hobbies out there. Golf? Ok.. 500 for a low end set of clubs and a bag. 20 dollars for balls per month (at least for newbies), 30 to 40 dollars or more in green's fee and tee time reservations EVERY time you play (at 4 times a month with 2 rounds comes to 300 dollars), God knows what for gas to drive to the club, 100 bucks for shoes, driving range fees, pants, shirts, hats, and beer... that can add up very quickly. Meanwhile you can buy a 50 dollar locomotive, 5 passenger cars, 50 bucks in detail parts and paints and hae a whole month's worth of fun ahead of you.

[Anonymous]

I think any hobby that you get into is expensive. But as long as peaople are willing to pay the prices set the companies will continue to charge that amount. If peaople stopped buying the stuff the prices would go down. Its like gas or heating oil or any other thing that prices fluctuate. You can never get everyone together to stop the priceing increases. As long as there a buyer theres going to be a seller that can get any price they want.

[RMax1]

I've reserved a Proto 2000 UP E8 set with DCC and sound. It's the most expensive thing I have ever bought for my railroad. It will be a very rare case. Spending over $225 at first stunned me. I spent $149 for my Proto Amtrak E8 set and was stunned when it came out. I got to thinking that if I were to put a decoder and sound in the other unit it would run about the same price. When my Amtrak set came out both were powered. This time I think they are going to sneek a dummy in but with sound. Even still the single A unit was around $100 and the new one with DCC and Sound is around $180. Seems the pricing is still level and the difference is DCC decoder. There are a few price increases but $200 locos price kids out of the market. You can say XBox and games all you want but $200 is still a lot of money.

Rmax

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vbaglivio
But even then.....
45 dollars for one passenger car? I remember when i could get the same style in kit form, super detail it, paint it, and still save money!
...
That is a price increase that is justified. But lets look at the rollling stock. 25 dollars for rolling stock? 10 years ago i was able to buy the same thing in kit form, have fun building it, and pay only 7 bucks! And honestly, i think it looked better back then also. I have such a hard time finding kits today. I would pick up a branchline kit, but they are expensive.

Huh?
An online source (InternetTrains) has Branchline freight car kits for less than $10 to less than $14. Ten years ago, with inflation, they would be the equivalent of less than $8 to less than $11. And the branchline kits are much better than Blue Box kits in terms of detail, decoration, etc., IMHO.
Most fo the passenger car kits are shown at less than $34.

And I didn't shop, I just picked an on-line store at random. I think their shipping is about 8 bucks, but if you ordered more than a few cars, it wouldn't add much to each.

The hobby is not free, but all this nostalgia for the "good old days" when "freight cars were a nickel and engines two bits" is not completely accurate. Reminds me of my Dad who used to lecture me when i asked for more allowance by saying his family of four lived one whole winter on a five-dollar bill my grandfather found on the sidewalk. Yeah, yeah ... and tell me again how you walked uphill to school -- both ways.

Jon

[Anonymous]

I am just starting back in the hobby after some 23 years or so. (mid 70's to 82 or so when I was a kid) I dont remeber all the prices I paid for things back then with my very limited fund, but seems to me that cost of items are a mixed bag.
When adjusted for inflation: Track prices seems cheaper now, engines are more expensive but are of higher quality and certainly have options that were not available back in the 70's. (Cheaper engines are still available tho' ) Model prices seem consistent with more "high end" models available. Scratch building can lower this cost alot. I dont remember premade trees ever being cheap. Since I didn't have anything when coming back in to the hobby I expected to spend a few bucks to get started. The layout while be a father/son project that while last for years and I cant put a price on that.

[WickhamMan]

I think there is a basic misunderstanding of economics and free markets when someone suggests that vendors are purposefully ignoring the "low end" market to get higher profits on "high end" RTR items or models. This is saying that there are profits out there that nobody wants. It is nonesense.

If there was a profitable market for low end items within the hobby, somebody would be making that money by selling to those hobbyists. If every vendor is selling at the "high end" then that end of the market is, by definition, the most competitive. That means that there are marginal players at that point in the market who are only breaking even. That is not to say that all manufacturers are just breaking even but it does indicate that the market is not profitable to new entrants.

The opposite is also competitive at the margins. However, the market size is much smaller so there are less (or no) players willing to sell products at those prices because and there are no profits to be made.

[RMax1]

Ok so why is the market so much smaller??? I think because some people cannot afford things. You also have a lot of things competing for the leasure dollar. But like any other recreational type activity. If you do not grow the youth market you will not have any market in a few years. Eventually the market will pass on and then you have nothing. Are kids buying $250 locos in any kind of quantity? Unless you get some youth involved and at a price they can afford say good bye to the "World's Greatest Hobby". It may be hard to do but only selling high priced items and not making lower priced items is like a tick eating at it's dog host until it is dead.

RMax1

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RMax1
Are kids buying $250 locos in any kind of quantity?

Maybe not, but why would they have to? On-line retailers are taking reservations for the Atlas Trainman GP-38-2s at 55 bucks. Other decent standard Atlas locos on-line now are $65-80. Again, that's without shopping at all ... there are many better deals out there.

Just for perspective, inflation-adjusting those prices back to 1980:
Atals Trainman at $55 in 1980 would be $21.66
Standard Atlas at $65 in 1980 would be $25.59
And these are for much better-quality locos than 1980

By the way, a mail-order sale ad in the Dec 1980 MR shows an Atlas FA1 (no choice of roadnames) for $21.99.

On the other hand, an ad in the same 1980 issue for an early command control system (pre-DCC of course) from Hornby with an MSRP of $175 for the controller and one decoder. Inflation adjusted to today that would be $444.44. This system had considerably fewer features than today's entry-level DCC sytems that list for half that price or less.

Atlas Nickle-Silver flex in 1980? 77 cents a section in bulk. Inflation-adjusted, $1.96. Today on-line, without shopping around? $2.12

I'm not saying the hobby is cheap, just that we might keep things in perspective.

Jon

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RMax1

Ok so why is the market so much smaller??? I think because some people cannot afford things. You also have a lot of things competing for the leasure dollar. But like any other recreational type activity. If you do not grow the youth market you will not have any market in a few years. Eventually the market will pass on and then you have nothing. Are kids buying $250 locos in any kind of quantity? Unless you get some youth involved and at a price they can afford say good bye to the "World's Greatest Hobby". It may be hard to do but only selling high priced items and not making lower priced items is like a tick eating at it's dog host until it is dead.

RMax1

No they're not. Not any more than they were buying $30 locomotive kits from Mantua in the late 50's (roughly $200+ in today's dollars). Fer cryin' out loud, get some perspective. The model railroad hobby has NEVER been cheap and it never will be because it's a niche hobby (and a micro sized business) and does not lend itself to economies of scale when it comes to manufacturing.

You think things are expensive here? Price a DJH kit (e.g. http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/prodloco.asp?ProdID=3057 )from the UK. For the most part, they don't include wheels, motor or gearsets because there are 3 common gauges (16.5, 18 and 18.83 - also known as P4) used in the UK with OO scale (1:76) and the choice is left to the modeler. By the time you assemble all you need just to build the thing, you're talking upwards of $350 or more.

DJH also does a few HO scale models (sample: http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/prodloco.asp?ProdID=3073 ) . These do include motor, gears and wheels. Notice the price? Wanna know what the dollar equivalent is at today's exchange rate? $460!!! And then you have to assemble and paint the thing.

DJH made some US prototype locos (USRA light 2-8-2 and 4-6-2, NYC J1e 4-6-4 and a Santa Fe 2-8-2) in the late 80's and finally gave up on them because they weren't selling. It's not that they weren't good kits, it's that apparently everyone wanted RTR plastic engines with brass quality at Wal-Mart prices. It ain't gonna happen.

Why is it that so many people people seem to want to have a fleet of locos and rolling stock rivalling the UP and they want it NOW. And all that stuff better be cheap, too, because if it isn't, there's going to be another whine at trains.com about greedy manufacturers and suppliers pricing everyone out of the market.

News flash, people. Ivan Boesky was greedy. If you want to get filthy rich, you're going to have to take up a line of business that will actually provide the revenue to support the 50,000 sq ft mansion, the yacht and the personal 747. The model railroad biz won't do it.

As I've stated before, a Varney Super Pacific sold for $57.50 in 1950, the same year my dad was making $175.00/month.

Things are better now.

Andre

[Anonymous]

the concept of cheaper prices drawing younger people into the hobby's not going to work.you HAVE to like trains and models to be drawn into this hobby.if bli's and kato's sold like athearn bb's, more guys with money would buy more stuff. todays" gotta have instant gratification" now feelings are why train modeling is less attractive, fewer trains and more railtrails don't help either. how many young can afford an rc car or airplane or boat?you priced rockets lately? how about an x-box and the games that go with it? hobbys are NO more expensive now than forty years ago when i was 12.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BXCARMIKE

the concept of cheaper prices drawing younger people into the hobby's not going to work.you HAVE to like trains and models to be drawn into this hobby.if bli's and kato's sold like athearn bb's, more guys with money would buy more stuff. todays" gotta have instant gratification" now feelings are why train modeling is less attractive, fewer trains and more railtrails don't help either. how many young can afford an rc car or airplane or boat?you priced rockets lately? how about an x-box and the games that go with it? hobbys are NO more expensive now than forty years ago when i was 12.

That's what I like to see. Another old codger with a long memory. [:D]

You're right. Price isn't the problem. If you're already interested, you'll find a way. If not.....

It ain't green fees and the cost of clubs that keeps me from playing golf.

It's the fact that golf is about as interesting to me as listening to grass grow or watching paint dry.

Andre

[RedGrey62]

I don't think I'm being "priced" out of the hobby, but I am spending my money more judiciously. Each time I pick up MR, there is always something I want, whether its a new loco, rolling stock, scenery, electonics, etc. I now have to budget my money into a couple of categories; what limited production items will I want and items that are continuously run. Then I further look at the limited production stuff to see if I really "must" have it, I am finding now that I don't. I will be starting a new layout in the near future, benchwork, track, wiring, and a DCC system will be the focus at first. If something not in those catergories pops us, I will either do without, or negotiate with the family financial officer [:D].

I think Sheryl Crow sang it best, "It's not having what you want
It's wanting what you've got"

Rick

[andrechapelon]

While we're on the subject, MR currently has a newstand price of $5.50. That's 11 times what I paid for my first issue of MR back in 1957.

'Course MR is a much better publication than it was nearly 50 years ago. Back then it was mostly text with some scattered B&W (that's black and white for you youngsters) photos. MR now is highly colorful and has become more of a graphics oriented rag.

I like it.

Even if they are charging me 11 times what I once paid.[;)]

Andre

[fwright]

I'm an admirer of Iain Rice's track plans and writing. In both his two recent books, he writes about constraints on how large a layout a model railroader should bite off on. The constraint on layout size we think and talk about the most is time. The amount of hobby time available is a huge constraint on how big a layout one should plan or attempt to build. We all know of folks who are trying to do too much with the time they have available to them; we also know folks - the ones whose layouts get featured in MR - who seem to have to have no constraints on their time, or manage to accomplish much more with their time than I do.

The other constraint, much less talked about, on layout size is money. As many in this thread have pointed out, prices relative to inflation are not all that much different in the long term, and the quality for the price has gone up. There are specific periods - the '90s for example - where prices dropped relative to inflation, thus making the catch-up increases of the last five years seem inordinately high. But I digress.

Because of our dedication to the hobby, culturally-encouraged free-spending habits, and for many of us, decent incomes, we have mostly ignored the money constraint on our layout or collection size.

And while money can be traded for time to realize a larger layout, this means buying RTR and various other services. The reverse is also possible - you can use time as a substitute for money to a certain extent by scratchbuilding and kitbashing. The $ model series in MR used to encourage that.

Faced with a very limited income in the '70s, I was able to carve $10/month for model railroading. So I emphasized aspects of the hobby that had a high time to $$ spent ratio - my $$/hour would be low. I handlaid my track; I bought a couple of used locomotives from garage sales to start with; I built from low-to-medium end kits because building from kits decreased my $$/hour cost of fun. I kept my layout size small - never bigger than 4x8. Even then the initial cost of the benchwork was the biggest budget buster - just as it is today!

At present, my modeling budget is $50/month (includes books, magazines, and budget augmentation by eating fast food during business trips). But I have agreed with my wife on limitations. My total number of locomotives will not exceed 8 (3 narrow gauge, 5 standard). If I buy another locomotive, I have to sell one. To satisfy my need to watch trains run, at least one of each is RTR. With small layouts, I just don't need that many cars or structures.

Other ways to keep the cost of the hobby down are picking a specific era and location to model. I too drool over the latest stuff in the LHS, but keep reminding myself of 2 simple questions: would this piece fit in or on my layout with its theme and location? If the answer to the 1st is yes, then what will the piece replace, and do I like it better than the existing; or is there space to add it as an addition?

Except for the initial benchwork costs, I firmly believe the hobby can be enjoyed on a modest scale for $25 per month in today's world and $$. You may only have 1 or 2 used locomotives, you won't have DCC (I still don't have), and you may have to wait a month or two to buy a certain item you want - but you can have fun!

I can remember when my wife gave my AHM Heisler as a Christmas gift - that was the most expensive locomotive I owned - and still is.

The last portion of my rant is that nearly everyone forgets the small manufacturers that support our hobby with kits and supplies. Our LHS shelves and magazines prominently display the high-end plastic locomotives and passenger cars. The small guys who are usually MRs themselves still exist - it just takes some seeking to find them. But for $$/hour of modeling fun, it's hard to beat a Labelle or Ye Old Huff'n Puff or similar kit. True, the kits cost $20-$25 and you might need another $10 for trucks and couplers. But you are going to spend enough pleasurable hours assembling, painting, detailing, and weathering that the total cost is well under $8 per hour of entertainment. Beats the cost per hour of watching a movie by far after you add in gas and popcorn!

Now I've spent too much time on the forum - sorry guys and gals, it may be free but you just aren't as much fun as trying to build my Keystone Shay! Read or ignore, but in either case, I'm going to go have fun.

yours in training
Fred
jack of all trades....you know the rest
for
Picture Gorge and Western Railway - "None more picturesque!"
Tillamook Head and Bethel Railway - "To Heaven and back!"

[selector]

Economics is pretty straighforward, both in the macro and micro scales. If there is a buck to be made, someone will earn it. This is no less true in the hobby industries. If companies like BLI make a dreadful mistake they will likely recover. If they make several in a row, their producst disappear. So far, so good. So, someone MUST be providing them a market. It that excludes a lot of people from BLI loco ownership, that's just the way it it...for all of us. We all can't have everything, or the US dollar would be worth exaclty one red cent. For some of us to earn $40K per year, a whole bunch of others have to earn $20K. The Government can't print money...believe it or not. So the wealth has to be dug out of the ground or grown. Our trains are the residuals after the mining, the smelting, the metal transportation, the milling, the distribution, and only then the retail, each level taking a rather large profit for their purposes. If we disagree with any of this, no one is holding our feet to the fire to make us spend our hard-earned dollars on, of all darned important things in life, toy trains.

if you want fancy highly detailed box cars for $6.00, make your own.

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by alco_fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by RMax1
Are kids buying $250 locos in any kind of quantity?

Maybe not, but why would they have to? On-line retailers are taking reservations for the Atlas Trainman GP-38-2s at 55 bucks. Other decent standard Atlas locos on-line now are $65-80. Again, that's without shopping at all ... there are many better deals out there.

Just for perspective, inflation-adjusting those prices back to 1980:
Atals Trainman at $55 in 1980 would be $21.66

Which is the price I paid for an Athearn F unit in 1983, retail, at the LHS, tax included.. And by the way, they still run fine.

[mitrainman]

trying to start a layout in garage
to young(14) to get a job, to old for finacial support from family
dont want to blow life savings on benchwork
no transportation to swap meets or places to buy used items. Ask for 2x4s for Xmas?
To scratch build you first need to buy paint, tools, glue and other equipment
waiting to be able to get a job

Daniel

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mitrainman

trying to start a layout in garage
to young(14) to get a job, to old for finacial support from family
dont want to blow life savings on benchwork
no transportation to swap meets or places to buy used items. Ask for 2x4s for Xmas?
To scratch build you first need to buy paint, tools, glue and other equipment
waiting to be able to get a job

Daniel

Daniel, Have you ever considered junk picking?? I know that may sound like a joke but you might be suprised at the quantity and even sometimes quality of building materials that people throw away.. Home construction sites are another source sometimes.. I don't mean to walk in and steal the stuff, I mean to ask the job forman if you can have the scraps.. Which are very often, very usable for some sections of benchwork.. Get enterprising.. Your folks might find it impressive enough to throw some financial support your way. Then again, they may consider your wood collection junk and demand you get rid of it (I don't know your folks so I can't make that call [;)]..

Good luck,
Jefff

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon
No they're not. Not any more than they were buying $30 locomotive kits from Mantua in the late 50's (roughly $200+ in today's dollars). Fer cryin' out loud, get some perspective. The model railroad hobby has NEVER been cheap and it never will be because it's a niche hobby (and a micro sized business) and does not lend itself to economies of scale when it comes to manufacturing.

DJH made some US prototype locos (USRA light 2-8-2 and 4-6-2, NYC J1e 4-6-4 and a Santa Fe 2-8-2) in the late 80's and finally gave up on them because they weren't selling. It's not that they weren't good kits, it's that apparently everyone wanted RTR plastic engines with brass quality at Wal-Mart prices. It ain't gonna happen.

Why is it that so many people people seem to want to have a fleet of locos and rolling stock rivalling the UP and they want it NOW. And all that stuff better be cheap, too, because if it isn't, there's going to be another whine at trains.com about greedy manufacturers and suppliers pricing everyone out of the market.

As I've stated before, a Varney Super Pacific sold for $57.50 in 1950, the same year my dad was making $175.00/month.

Things are better now.

Andre - you need to study your model railroading history a little more closely! First off, those expensive Varney Super Pacifics, Mantua Craftsmen Series, Iken locomotives and their ilk, were exactly what keep the hobby from growing back in the 1930's and 40's. Once inexpensive (plastic, diecast and reliable) equipment became available in the early 1950's, model railroading exploded! From the 1960's until the 1980's the hobby was cheap and prices rose only very slowly for fully 25-30 years. It was not until the 1990's that we saw typical prices of better quality model railroad equipment start to take off. Over the past decade this has grown to the level of being outrageous.

Incidentally, I remember the DJH models very well and they failed in the U.S.A. because, while they were very complex, difficult, kits whose prices approached low end brass! They never had any chance for success here.

The hobby today is composed of about 1/2 to 2/3 guys who remember the prices of the 70's, 80's and early 1990's and are stunned seeing where the hobby is going. I find it interesting that some here love to invoke CPI increases to justify current prices, but don't appreciate that they really can't be applied to hobby items bought with discretionary funds. The CPI certainly never guided the market pricing in the past. Likewise, some folks seem to see what would be normally be viewed as product evolution (better detail, controls, etc.) as some amazing development fully justify dramatic price increases. Did TV's skyrocket in price over the past 50 years? They evolved enormously. Did washing machines or computers? Everyone needs to pause a moment and actually look around to see how prices in other hobbies have evolved. You'll find few examples of runaway pricing, except in those hobbies that are currently shrinking dramatically.

CNJ831

[vsmith]

Ever seen a $500+ R/C plane take off on its maiden flight, get airborne, roll over and auger straight into the pavement completely disintegrating in a cloud of powered balsa wood?

You'll never say this hobby is to expensive after looking at other hobbies.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon
No they're not. Not any more than they were buying $30 locomotive kits from Mantua in the late 50's (roughly $200+ in today's dollars). Fer cryin' out loud, get some perspective. The model railroad hobby has NEVER been cheap and it never will be because it's a niche hobby (and a micro sized business) and does not lend itself to economies of scale when it comes to manufacturing.

DJH made some US prototype locos (USRA light 2-8-2 and 4-6-2, NYC J1e 4-6-4 and a Santa Fe 2-8-2) in the late 80's and finally gave up on them because they weren't selling. It's not that they weren't good kits, it's that apparently everyone wanted RTR plastic engines with brass quality at Wal-Mart prices. It ain't gonna happen.

Why is it that so many people people seem to want to have a fleet of locos and rolling stock rivalling the UP and they want it NOW. And all that stuff better be cheap, too, because if it isn't, there's going to be another whine at trains.com about greedy manufacturers and suppliers pricing everyone out of the market.

As I've stated before, a Varney Super Pacific sold for $57.50 in 1950, the same year my dad was making $175.00/month.

Things are better now.

Andre - you need to study your model railroading history a little more closely! First off, those expensive Varney Super Pacifics, Mantua Craftsmen Series, Iken locomotives and their ilk, were exactly what keep the hobby from growing back in the 1930's and 40's. Once inexpensive (plastic, diecast and reliable) equipment became available in the early 1950's, model railroading exploded! From the 1960's until the 1980's the hobby was cheap and prices rose only very slowly for fully 25-30 years. It was not until the 1990's that we saw typical prices of better quality model railroad equipment start to take off. Over the past decade this has grown to the level of being outrageous.

Incidentally, I remember the DJH models very well and they failed in the U.S.A. because, while they were very complex, difficult, kits whose prices approached low end brass! They never had any chance for success here.

The hobby today is composed of about 1/2 to 2/3 guys who remember the prices of the 70's, 80's and early 1990's and are stunned seeing where the hobby is going. I find it interesting that some here love to invoke CPI increases to justify current prices, but don't appreciate that they really can't be applied to hobby items bought with discretionary funds. The CPI certainly never guided the market pricing in the past. Likewise, some folks seem to see what would be normally be viewed as product evolution (better detail, controls, etc.) as some amazing development fully justify dramatic price increases. Did TV's skyrocket in price over the past 50 years? They evolved enormously. Did washing machines or computers? Everyone needs to pause a moment and actually look around to see how prices in other hobbies have evolved. You'll find few examples of runaway pricing, except in those hobbies that are currently shrinking dramatically.

CNJ831

There are several things wrong with your analysis. First of all, it wasn't low prices of ready to run in the 50's that powered the hobby, it was the rapid growth of disposable income (partly as a result of the fact that the U.S. was the only one in the game for quite a while after WWII). I was there in the 1950's. There just wasn't that much ready to run and what there was wasn't that good. My first locomotive was a Mantua Little Six and my first car was a Silver Streak Caboose.

Washing machines and other appliances certainly haven't risen in price in part because they're types of products that can take advantage of returns to scale. IOW, the more you make (up to a point), the less each additional unit costs to produce. Model Railroading is not a mass hobby. It never has and never will be.

As for computers, the reason they've come done so much in price are the returns to scale available with a combination of falling prices due ti shrinking geometries (Moore's Law) which allow more devices which allows more people to afford computers.

If you compare the price of a BLI sound equipped steam locomotive with, say a similar brass locomotive of the early 60's and adjust for inflation, you'll find it's pretty much a wash pricewise.

And I'm sorry, but paying roughly $50 (adjusted roughly back to 1963 price levels) for a BLI ATSF 3751 with all that detail is much better than the deal 40+ years ago where you paid about $30 for a Mantua Mike and then another $30-40 for parts to detail it. There's no real price difference.

Andre

[fwright]

Daniel

I sympathize. But, we all have to start somewhere. I have helped my son scavenge lumber from pallets that were no longer needed by a business. Enough dimensional lumber in a couple of them to frame an open grid 4x6 layout or sectional shelf layout to get started with.

As Jeff said, also ask at construction sites - may be able to scavenge some plywood (and maybe even some foam) there.

As for tools, start with paint brushes, needle nose pliers, tweezers, and an NMRA gauge. Look to garge sales for some cheap rolling stock and track.

Have fun and good luck!

[Anonymous]

About a zillion years ago as a teenage model railroaders, I made do with what I could afford, which wasn't very much. My parents didn't have much money, so I had to get what I wanted on my own. Weekly allowance, birthday money, and I had a newspaper route. I made many of my structures from cardboard and balsa wood, not being able to afford kits of the day. I'd haunt local department stores for bargains, broken models that I would repair and use. I started with an 027 layout with used Louis Marx equipment that I traded from a friend. Later on I sold off my 027 stuff and switched to HO scale, again all on a budget. My layout table was an old kitchen table onto which I'd added a piece of plywood.

So I was able to accomplish a decent amount without a great outlay of money.

Just because many of the new models are coming out with DCC and sound, there's nothing that says you need to have the latest and more expensive equipment. Used models are a great way to get started and to have a decent hobby.

Bob Boudreau

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

About a zillion years ago as a teenage model railroaders, I made do with what I could afford, which wasn't very much. My parents didn't have much money, so I had to get what I wanted on my own. Weekly allowance, birthday money, and I had a newspaper route. I made many of my structures from cardboard and balsa wood, not being able to afford kits of the day. I'd haunt local department stores for bargains, broken models that I would repair and use. I started with an 027 layout with used Louis Marx equipment that I traded from a friend. Later on I sold off my 027 stuff and switched to HO scale, again all on a budget. My layout table was an old kitchen table onto which I'd added a piece of plywood.

So I was able to accomplish a decent amount without a great outlay of money.

Just because many of the new models are coming out with DCC and sound, there's nothing that says you need to have the latest and more expensive equipment. Used models are a great way to get started and to have a decent hobby.

Bob Boudreau

Bob I think you hit the nail on the head.

The hobby is only as expensive as you make it, there are cheap ways to do great things, afterall how many locomotives do you really need, John Allen only started with 3 lokies if I remember right, a Varney Casey Jones 4-6-0, a Varney 0-6-0 and I believe a dismal of some sort and he started with a 4x6 [:0] layout and John Allen was a man of Modest income!

He scratchbuilt every structure from balsa and scrap wood, he built cars from scratch or kits, and built his scenery from paper mache, plaster of paris , in general he took cr*p and made gold out of it. I always thought his biggest allie was Patience. He was willing to work slowly and build up his experience and knowledge from what he had started with as time and money allowed, and I dont beleive that when he started he was any more or less talented than most modelers here, its just he gave himself the time to evolve and learn.

SO if you only have room for a 4 x 6 like Allen, cheap ways to build it are work to a plan, buy track as you can afford it (buy good track and stick with it), keep the control system simple ( If you can afford entry level DCC like bachmanns system go for it, but I still use DC and Atlas controllers, cheap and they do work) once your track layout is complete and operational, scenery can easily be done with scrap cardboard support, paper towels dipped in starch or a thinned plaster solution, then add sculptamold detailing (or wet newspaper ground into a pulp and mixed with starch or thinned plaster, same thing) aluminum foil makes great rock molds, trees can be twigs and ground up foam, or even from any source that fits the bill, dont be affraid to be creative. Buildings can be build from balsa or cardstock even.

Search train shows and swap meets for cars, buy only as many as you can effectily use, for engines buy new....and get the warrenty, but like John Allem maybe you only need 2 or 3 (OK maybe 4) really good engines and there is a great selection of stuff out there today, I remember when my LHS only had 2 choices Blue Box or Tyco, hard choice eh? $60 today is like $20 in 1980, and there are good choices for low priced lokies out there. $20 doesnt even fill my gas tank so no whinning about "I cant buy an engine for $20 so I'm dumping the hobby" ...ever hear of putting your spare money in a jar over a few months? [;)]

To me its really up to the enterprise of the modeler, if you have deep pockets then you can afford to by everything from the lokies, to the buildings to the entire layout as RTR out of the box but somehow I really doubt if they will have the same satifaction that comes with investing the time actually building your own layout. It just seams to me too many people are unwilling to invest the effort, to much emphisis on the Faruka Salt Syndrome "I want it now daddy I want it NOW" that drives the demand for RTR and prebuilt stuff and given that demand drives the market and is why kits are going away.[:(]

Its not THAT hard to do it on the cheap, John Allen did it, so can you.[:D]

[Anonymous]

I have tried to stay out of this debate. But anyways here goes nothing:

Child hood Trainset, perhaps a few cars with horn and hook couplers. Forget operation and anything fancy. Just a loop of track and a constant itch and desire to run "Dad" trains which were never run unsupervised.

Teenage years. Girls, Video games and crushing loads of school work demanded by teachers with a few dollars now and again to spend on something. Athearn rolling stock at 2.00 each was a god send and so was Kaydee Couplers.

Early adult with a job and perhaps a few dollars. So busy with work did not have time to spend money on hobby. Housing, utilities and other responsibilites (Vehicle, gas and insurance etc) ate up the rest.

fast forward 30 years.

Finally settled down with a home and a wife. I STILL dont have much to spend on the hobby BUT... what I DO spend is on stuff that is really well done. Non-Performing engines are sold on ebay. Surviving engines are very well taken care of and expected to last 10 years or more.

I am happy. But instead of buying a fist ful of rolling stock, pocket ful of detail parts and structure kits years ago, I make one trip a month to the LHS that is usually planned months in advance. I usually purchase a new engine once or twice a year usually when today's production runs are sold out before the product sees the LHS.

But talk to today's children who drool over very powerful computers and broadband connections, cell phones, high performance cars and all kinds of goodies before they get out of high school... it's a wonder the hobby is still around.

There will always be people who enjoy playing trains (Operating etc) as long humans are around to make a dollar for a day's work and able to spend some of it at the store.