why does everyone hate 4X8 layouts?

[SimRacin40]

If anything,when you build a 4x8,you can always have a track leading off for if you ever decide to expand on your layout,which could always happen. Personally if someone wants to do a 4x8,let them.

[Anonymous]

to resolve this issue. take a really large saw. cut out the centre/right four sqaure feet and add it to the side.... dog bone with an industial district....works for me

[Anonymous]

The mother in law example was totally random (but hey, you never know... I actually like my mother in law, and there's actually zero chance of that happening, but you catch my drift - 4 x 8's are easy to move around).

I'm currently working on an L-shaped design. Trying to fit it into an 8 x 8 space. It's not easy so far...

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan
I think shelf and non-4x8 style layouts require more dedication to the hobby. For example, with a 4 x 8, your garage "workspace" could be turned into your "model railroad space".
<snip>
As for cuyama's pics above - I think it's obvious which is more fun to operate. But I'll ask you this: which is more practical if your mother in law needs to stay at your house for 6 months?

Dude, if you make your Mother-in-law stay in the garage for six months, I'll think you'll have bigger problems than where to put the layout.

BH

[Anonymous]

This is a fascinating topic to me, because I'm planning my first layout since I was a kid. As a kid, my Dad and I started 3 4 x 8 HO layouts, and I started one N scale 2 x 4 layout.

What they lack in interest, they make up for in simplicity. Not just simplicity of construction (which isn't a big deal to me - I love going hog-wild with the table saw), but also in simplicity of handling.

I think shelf and non-4x8 style layouts require more dedication to the hobby. For example, with a 4 x 8, your garage "workspace" could be turned into your "model railroad space". If you have to build a bookshelf that your wife asks you to build, you say, "no problem - it will take me 5 minutes to shove this 4 x 8 layout outside...", etc.

Or, say you need to lube up your mountain bike - no problem, give the 4 x 8 a shove out the garage door, and you're all over the bike.

4 x 8's, being one solid "unit", are very easily movable. Although the solid piece may be more "bulky" than a modular shelf layout, shoving it from here to there in the garage is much easier.

I'm sort of prejudiced in that I look at 4 x 8 layouts and think "unsophisticated", etc. But I wish I didn't think that way. Because they are practical as heck. Maybe I've just read one too many Tony Koester articles, so I have a bias against them.

I will most likely build a 2 x 8 foot shelf layout, with anunscenicked return loop, because then I'll have the "look" and ease of reach, etc. that a shelf layout has, but then my unscecking return loop (one oval that goes around my back as I operate) will have the "shove it around-ability" that a 4 x 8 has.

As for cuyama's pics above - I think it's obvious which is more fun to operate. But I'll ask you this: which is more practical if your mother in law needs to stay at your house for 6 months?

(with all due respect, I love Cuyama's website, his designs, etc.).

I really think the difference between a 4 x 8 and a non-4x8 is in the amount of dedication you must have to the hobby, in terms of your living space, and carpentry. (I love the carpentry aspect, it's the living space aspect I wrestle with).

For some background, I get 1/2 of the garage to use "as I please". My wife gets the other half, which she uses to park the "family car" i.e., the nicer vehicle (my pickup gets the driveway).

So I have about a 10 x 20ft space in the garage. My drums are often set up in there, and I always want to have the space to do that. I also don't want to duck under a train track to get to the drums, or to set them up / tear them down, etc.

So this leaves me with about 10 x 12 for model railroad space, as well as workbench, table saw, shop vac, yadda yadda yadda....

I'm contemplating a 4 x 8 in the "shop" area. It could nicely divide the "shop" area from the "non-shop" area.

(keep in mind I've been anti- 4 x 8 since about high school - the last time I had a layout). But man, they're practical in so many ways!

(EDIT: If I ever were to build a 4 x 8, I would definately have a "backdrop divider" down the center of the layout, or more towards one side, with the other side used for staging, or a scenicked yard).

And another thing, does anyone remember pictures of Aggrojones old layout? I think it was a 4 x 8, or something similar, and it was georgeous!

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

QUOTE: I find that most if not a good portion of the newbees that get on this board jump into a 4 x 8 not because they thought about it, but because they got an Atlas book for $3.95 or so and the track plan looked easy.

But that's all the thought they put into it. This type of person will get the track layed, start running trains, make 6 laps a minute until they get bored and say, "Now what?"

Chip Mouse, May I quote you?

I think you just did.

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIESorry Guys..I still maintain...a 4x8 layout is far better then no layout ...and dreaming of that dream layout that may never materialized.

There is alway's the missed opportunity of running train's on the carpet, but I agree, 'SOMETHING' is better than nothing.

QUOTE: Again I find the need to challenge .. the 4x8 bashers feel they must bash ...on how "bad" a 4x8 is and ... and look down their long self righteous noses on those that chose to build a 4x8 layout. http://www.gatewaynmra.org/project.htm

'DISPLAY' layout's - such as was referrenced seem to have a goal of seeng how much can be crammed into a minimum of space - good for a temporary audience with short attention span's -and has a basic Department Store 'toylike' appeal, which may be it's charm.

QUOTE: What if modelers doesn't have a basement or large spare room and can only work with a 4x8 foot layout space?

OK, Larry, How much space does a 4X8 take up? (Can you put it in a 4X8 room?)

QUOTE: There are many things you guys are over looking including carpenter skills of the new modeler... How about not having the mega $$$ needed to build that super size layout? What if the modeler rents and can't anchor into the walls for that round the walls king size loop?? So,I guess and according to your thoughts these modelers should not build a 4x8 foot layout???

Larry, EVERY layout has limitation's - but then so does it's owner.

QUOTE: I find that most if not a good portion of the newbees that get on this board jump into a 4 x 8 not because they thought about it, but because they got an Atlas book for $3.95 or so and the track plan looked easy.

But that's all the thought they put into it. This type of person will get the track layed, start running trains, make 6 laps a minute until they get bored and say, "Now what?"

Chip Mouse, May I quote you?

QUOTE: FACT: People build 4X8's because they think it's simpler to do. - DG

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Ok Guys,Tell me this..Name a layout that doesn't have limitions? A round the walls has limitions,a basement size layout has limitions as does the biggest of club layouts.I think we all can agree that 90% or more of the layouts built is built with loops for continuous running just like a 4x8..Why? Limitations.

Now Chip and selector please tell me whats wrong with those layout that I linked to? I bet you didn't bother to look because of your mind is set against 4x8 foot or less layouts or are they proof positive what a good small layout design can look like and above all very operational..

There are many things you guys are over looking including carpenter skills of the new modeler..What if modelers doesn't have a basement or large spare room and can only work with a 4x8 foot layout space? Have you forgotten the other inhabitants of the house that might need space as well? How about not having the mega $$$ needed to build that super size layout? What if the modeler rents and can't anchor into the walls for that round the walls king size loop?? So,I guess and according to your thoughts these modelers should not build a 4x8 foot layout???

You are right, on all counts. [:D]

What I was attempting to say is that when a newcomer bursts on the scene saying they want to build a 4X8, we KNOW the provenance of the idea...a simple shape on a readily available piece of plywood. It takes no imagination to come up with that one...we all do. What I meant to say is that we should ask the questioner, who is after all asking for advice, if she/he is aware of some of the more obvious limitations. If we surprise them by naming one or two that they had not considered, and they wholeheartedly agree to take another look, have we not provided a service?

By all means, folks, build that 4x8. It is a great way to start, as I said before. So is getting curves that don't fit the loco you dream about. And you'd probably thank me for pointing out that it won't take the 18" curves.

Yes, every one has limitations, but as we go up the food chain, there are fewer of them. Someone who "thinks bigger" will probably do well...in the long run.

Just my two cents.

[Duce]

I have never heard anyone say they hate 4X8 layouts. The reason I didnt go with one is because the space issue. I have a 12X12 room I didnt want it etting in the middle. I have a shelf layout that goes all the way around the room. If the space is not an issue I dont see anything wrong with a 4X8

[cuyama]

Let me say first that I don't actually hate the 4X8 -- but I wi***he commercial press would discuss the alternatives.

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER
If you put one 4 ft end against the wall the 12 feet reduces to 10 feet while leaving adequate access from the sides.
<snip>
This means that you can make it work with an 8x10 ft room.

You can also make a much more interesting HO alternative work in an 8X10 room. This one needs  access hatches.

This HO 8X10 around-the room layout offers 24" radius curves, impossible on an HO 4X8

'nuff said

[IRONROOSTER]

I would like to disagree on a couple of points:

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Unless the 4 x 8 folds into a closet or can be raised to the ceiling it is going to take 10 x 12 no matter how you look at it.

This seems to be based on the assumption that space is needed on all 4 sides and that the amount of space needed is 3 ft on each long side and 2 ft at each end.

If you put one 4 ft end against the wall the 12 feet reduces to 10 feet while leaving adequate access from the sides. One of the side aisles can be 18" for construction and maintenance and the other aisle can be 30" for operating. This means that you can make it work with an 8x10 ft room. This is about the size of many small bedrooms and will leave room for the door and access to the closet.

QUOTE: The difference between the skills for a 4 x 8 and shelf layout is the ability to cut a piece of plywood. Everything else is the same. The lumber yards will cut the plywood for 25 cents a cut.

Not exactly, you either have to build a removable bridge/gate across the doorway or rehang the door so it swings outward. Making the first reliable can be a problem. The second leaves you with a duck under into the room not to mention which rehanging a door may not be allowed if you're renting; and it requires a little more skill to get it right than building a train table.

Enjoy
Paul

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Ok Guys,Tell me this..Name a layout that doesn't have limitions? A round the walls has limitions,a basement size layout has limitions as does the biggest of club layouts.I think we all can agree that 90% or more of the layouts built is built with loops for continuous running just like a 4x8..Why? Limitations.

Certainly all layouts have limitations. I'm not trying to be argumentative. But I believe that a 4 x 8 is not a one-size-fits-all condom for newbees.

QUOTE: Now Chip and selector please tell me whats wrong with those layout that I linked to? I bet you didn't bother to look because of your mind is set against 4x8 foot or less layouts or are they proof positive what a good small layout design can look like and above all very operational.

Yes, I did look at them and they are good designs. I posted a couple 4 x 8 with good designs. As I mentioned. I think my 4 x 8 layout is a good design. So?

QUOTE: There are many things you guys are over looking including carpenter skills of the new modeler..

The difference between the skills for a 4 x 8 and shelf layout is the ability to cut a piece of plywood. Everything else is the same. The lumber yards will cut the plywood for 25 cents a cut.

QUOTE: What if modelers doesn't have a basement or large spare room and can only work with a 4x8 foot layout space?

Unless the 4 x 8 folds into a closet or can be raised to the ceiling it is going to take 10 x 12 no matter how you look at it.

QUOTE: Have you forgotten the other inhabitants of the house that might need space as well? How about not having the mega $$$ needed to build that super size layout? What if the modeler rents and can't anchor into the walls for that round the walls king size loop??

Loops can be free standing and even break down into modules.

QUOTE: So,I guess and according to your thoughts these modelers should not build a 4x8 foot layout???

I don't know where you get the idea that I think no one should have a 4 x 8 layout. They are warrented in certain circumstances. But just as I say this, for most people there are better alternatives. I cannot herald them as greatest model railroad concept since the Kaydee coupler. The 4x8 is not inherently a model railroading design, it is a toy train design, an extention of the train set loop concept that gets it off the floor. The fact that competent model railroders can make something of it is more of testiment to an individuals skill at working within a limitation than maximizing use of a spacial environment.

[CMSTPP]

Small, not alot of space to build a yard. not enough track there to even handle what I have. That pretty much answers it.
James

[jecorbett]

I doubt that many modelers who end up staying in the hobby build their first layout as a keeper. A few might end up incorporating their early effort into a larger layout ala John Allen whose original 3X6 Gorre and Daphetid was included in both his second and final G&D layouts. Most of us end up building more than one layout in our lifetimes so why not start on a 4X8. It's a great learning platform and there are numerous track plans already published for that size. My first layout was a 4X8 and I loved it and those memories I had as a youth got me back into the hobby as an adult.

[BRAKIE]

Ok Guys,Tell me this..Name a layout that doesn't have limitions? A round the walls has limitions,a basement size layout has limitions as does the biggest of club layouts.I think we all can agree that 90% or more of the layouts built is built with loops for continuous running just like a 4x8..Why? Limitations.

Now Chip and selector please tell me whats wrong with those layout that I linked to? I bet you didn't bother to look because of your mind is set against 4x8 foot or less layouts or are they proof positive what a good small layout design can look like and above all very operational..

There are many things you guys are over looking including carpenter skills of the new modeler..What if modelers doesn't have a basement or large spare room and can only work with a 4x8 foot layout space? Have you forgotten the other inhabitants of the house that might need space as well? How about not having the mega $$$ needed to build that super size layout? What if the modeler rents and can't anchor into the walls for that round the walls king size loop?? So,I guess and according to your thoughts these modelers should not build a 4x8 foot layout???

[Anonymous]

I'm just getting back into the hobby.I've been looking at all information I can get my hands on.Threads such as this one make me laugh.Everyone has a valid reason or opinion as to what they prefer.That makes everyone "right" for his or her own application.If it's not fun or relaxing to YOU,why bother? I'm seriously considering N scale T-Trak modules just for kicks.I saw plans for a timesaver switching layout built on three modules in addition to the continuous loops.Best of both worlds!That sent me over the edge.But that's what seems right for my space situation.I love all nice layouts regardless of size or scale.Keep the arguments and the pictures coming!

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Actually, I think they do need to hear it, or at least a reasonable discussion of it. There are options besides the 4 x 8 for beginners, as Don and Byron have pointed out, that give greater chance for operations and using properly spaced blobs can still provide contiuous operation if that is a desire.

Frankly, although it is warranted in certain circumstances, when you fully embrace your givens and druthers, there are almost always better options than a 4 x 8. It is just not a practical layout form.

I left this thread some time ago as it was getting repetitious...no finger-pointing, just saying that I had thought that it had all been said. Anyway, I took a quick peek due to its longetivity, and find that I tend to agree with you, Chip. We have a "civic" duty here, as pseudo-stewards of our hobby, to make sure we educate newcomers to spare them hardship, heartache, and unecessary expense considering the complaints elsewhere about how costly this hobby is (aren't they all?).

If we all learn, eventually, that a 4X8 has limits for advanced levels of the modeling, we should point that out to the newer folks. We should tell them that a 4X8 is a wonderful way to learn about MR in a hurry, especially if one's pockets are reasonably deep. On the other hand, especially for the younger keeners, and especially if they take the time to come into the light and ask us, we should tell them what we know and understand about their intended path. Just as we don't steer vacationers two miles out of their way to the closest hotel, we should direct the beginners to the shortest path to success...as we define it ourselves...something that is everyone's purview here.

-Crandell

Edit- Of course, some people need to learn the hard way...

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jecorbett


It seems to me that if your structures and scenery weren't too tall, you could fold it into the wall like a Murphy bed. Has anyone ever seen this done?

John Armstrong has one in his Creative Layout Designs book.

[jecorbett]

QUOTE: Originally posted by alexander13

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Just to bring the argument back into the conversation. The biggest reason why people don't like a 4 x 8 is that they take up 9 x 11 space when you count walkarounds and a 9 x 11 shelf, U-shaped layout is much more versatile and easier to reach and operate. People gravitate toward the 4 x 8 because they don't think in term of space and cutting a piece of plywood.

The "I only have space for a 4 x 8" argument doesn't hold up.

Actullay if you have it on wheels it can be pushed against the walls wnen not in use. then you can pull it out when it is in use.

It seems to me that if your structures and scenery weren't too tall, you could fold it into the wall like a Murphy bed. Has anyone ever seen this done?

[SpaceMouse]

Actually, I think they do need to hear it, or at least a reasonable discussion of it. There are options besides the 4 x 8 for beginners, as Don and Byron have pointed out, that give greater chance for operations and using properly spaced blobs can still provide contiuous operation if that is a desire.

Frankly, although it is warranted in certain circumstances, when you fully embrace your givens and druthers, there are almost always better options than a 4 x 8. It is just not a practical layout form.

[BRAKIE]

Chip,I agree with the 4x8 book layouts and some of MR's project 4x8 layouts as being down right boring and the main cause of "Newbie 4 x 8 Disease". However with proper guidance on designing a well thought out 4x8 foot layout can be a joy to operate beyond just running laps.
On the other hand newbies doesn't need 4x8 bashing from experience modelers but,they need to be coach in proper 4x8 layout design by experience modelers and 4x8 layout designers that design 4x8 layouts beyond the Lionel mentality of the more common 4x8 layout designs...And that my friend is where the problem lies.
BTW If you think all the layouts I linked to are 4x8s guess again..You see some are 4x6s! [:0]

[SpaceMouse]

Brakie,

For me, 4 x 8 bashing is a relative term. There are good well-thought out 4 x 8's and there are 4 x8 that show all the imagination of a turnip. I lucked out and got a decent one. I say lucked out because of the advice of a few people on this board that kept me from making some newbee mistakes.

However, even though I'm still a rookie here (I graduate to sophmore next week) I find that most if not a good portion of the newbees that get on this board jump into a 4 x 8 not because they thought about it, but because they got an Atlas book for $3.95 or so and the track plan looked easy.

But that's all the thought they put into it. This type of person will get the track layed, start running trains, make 6 laps a minute until they get bored and say, "Now what?"

So there is a great deal of difference between a well thought out 4 x 8 where all options have been thought out. The designer has thoroughly examined his givens and druthers and sets about making his 4 x 8 empire.

This contrasts greatly to "Newbee 4 x 8 Disease."

[BRAKIE]

Sorry Guys..I still maintain that a industrial switching layout is not everybody's cup of tea nor is building a round the walls layout with its limitations..I still think a 4x8 layout is far better then no layout or arm chairing and dreaming of that dream layout that may never materialized.
Again I find the need to challenge anybody that has a open mind to find faults with these layouts.There was no takers the first time I ask and yet like a broken record the 4x8 bashers feel they must bash on and hasn't proven anything except they know how to use a keyboard to pu***heir own closed minds on how "bad" a 4x8 is and how perfect for everybody their layout ideas and look down their long self righteous noses on those that chose to build a 4x8 layout.

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/project.htm

[ocalicreek]

Perhaps the greatest drawback I can see to a 4x8 is the flat top. One of the AP award criteria for tracklaying is to demonstrate an understanding of proper railroad grading including drainage, balast depth, etc. Granted, on many industrial lines the ties are long gone beneath a layer of dirt, grime, oil drippings, weeds (ooh, I'm getting excited just thinking about it!) and any balast that may have been there at one time is now long buried as well. Laying track on a strip of roadbed gives some semblance of reality, but when the rest of the world (read 'tabletop') is flat the effort produces little effect.

Also, a 4x8 sheet of 2" extruded insulation isn't that much more than a sheet of ply and can offer a beginner (who may not be old enough to use power tools alone safely, or may not have them at all, regardless of age) an opportunity to cut drainage ditches, etc, or even better, cookie cutter a second sheet with the track layout including any track level elements and apply this to the first sheet. Now any fills can be taken care of easily, or bridges for that matter, and the rest can go up from there.

That said, I should mention that I am planning on building a 4x8 soon (no, really I am) and here's why. It'll be on a porch where three sides are windows from about 40" up and I like the view so an around the walls design is out. The fourth wall includes a double door and a large window that I'd like to avoid blocking as well. Also, how long we'll be here is uncertain; could be months or years.

I'll be building it with lauan ply seriously braced because foam sheets are hard to get around here (not impossible, just hard to find) and I've been wanting to experiment with lightweight framework. The plus here is portability. We move mattresses in and out of homes - why not layouts that size?

I like 'railfanning' a layout, regardless of size. But that implies that it's a place I'd go and sit next to the tracks. I like to find interesting places to look for trains, not just anywhere there's a train. For me, that's one of the perks of modeling. I get to recreate a place I like to be (or can't be but would rather be) where trains run, the kind of trains I like to see (or wish I could see more often). On a 4x8 I get to experience that run-by as often as I like, and depending on the speed, that can be every few seconds or few minutes. Slower trains can look longer, invite the viewer to study them, and can appear more massive if they run smoothly.

I'll be using gorilla rack freestanding steel shelving for support. It's 7 feet high when fully assembled, or can be assembled as 3' and 4' high sections. I have three sets of shelving so I'll be breaking down two of them into 4' high sections for the supports and storage beneath the layout. Each unit is 4' long by 18" deep. Would make great support for an around the walls layout someday too.

The goal - a high (eye level) track level, scenery that extends well below track level, mountainous scenery to divide the layout into scenes, smooth running equipment, the ability to run one train for a while then another after that and maybe do a little switching, opportunities to do some nice scenery well (what I enjoy most).

I already have a scenicked timesaver (5'x14") that I thoroughly enjoy. Hand laid code 70 trackwork, a river landing setting, and a nice little MDC Critter to shove cars around. Much fun for many hours. But I miss being able to just sit back and watch a train roll by. I have had to come to terms with the limitations of being able to run mostly 40' equipment, four axle diesels and smaller steam. But it has forced me to be creative in the planning process. It will be fun to build, that's for sure.

Ocalicreek

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Just to bring the argument back into the conversation. The biggest reason why people don't like a 4 x 8 is that they take up 9 x 11 space when you count walkarounds and a 9 x 11 shelf, U-shaped layout is much more versatile and easier to reach and operate. People gravitate toward the 4 x 8 because they don't think in term of space and cutting a piece of plywood.

The "I only have space for a 4 x 8" argument doesn't hold up.

Actullay if you have it on wheels it can be pushed against the walls wnen not in use. then you can pull it out when it is in use.

[Don Gibson]

To each his own - but let's keep it simple :

FACT: People build 4X8's because they think 4X8's take up less room.
FALSE: They require 'walk around' room to operate, like table-tennis.Try 10X11'.

FACT: People build 4X8's because they think it's simpler to do?
TRUE: Building material ply is readily available in 4X8. (It used to be avail. in 5 x10), so a 4x8 is a piece of wood that limit's our imagination and worse what will run on it.

Let's get some BS out of the way: I've built a 4X8. I presently have a 18"X24' along 2 walls - taking up very little space. I Can add another 'L' out into the room and still have 3 ft. aisleway.

PEOPLE on average have 32" long arm's so a 3' wide layout seems logical. Instead of a 4X8 WHY NOT a 9'X9' square,with 1' wide sides and backstretch,and operated from the inside? One can still run in circles, and It takes up less room.

COST'S: No increase in engines or building's, 12 pieces of flextrack, one power pack, and can be done with as little as 2 pieces of $16 ply by using 1' wide ply for the sides and backstretch. Is there a catch? YES!. 3 More supprt's to saw, screw, & glue together. I also like to 45degree-angle the inside corners to provide wider curves (Extra ply). Benefit: wider assortment of equipment - including 4-8-8-2's and neat passenger cars will run on THIS layout - using (key word) less space to do it in. Even a 9'X12' against a wall uses less floor space than a 4X8.

So skip the excuses. Get out the Saw & Hammer. The wood will be the cheapest part of your RR.

[Anonymous]

Not everyone hates a 4x8 layout.

[Jetrock]

I always liked the Brit idea of slicing that 4x8 sheet of lumber into two 1x8 sheets and two 2x4 sheets, then putting them together to make an 8x8 layout with a 4x4 foot operator hole in the center. Comfortable reach from any point on the layout, wider curves, doesn't take any more space than a 4x8, and you get to look at the trains from the inside of the curve instead of the outside. I understand it is common in the UK but kind of unknown here.

[aloco]

I have a 3.5 by 6 foot oval layout with only two sidings. It's analog, I run my painted and detailed locos on it, and I just do idiot loops. I've had it for eight years and I've grown accustomed to it. It didn't take long to finish either.

If I want to do yard switching, wayfreight operations, and all that razzmatazz I've got a fleet of factory-painted DCC-equipped locos to run on the model railroad club layout.

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainfreek92

QUOTE: Originally posted by ondrek

I forgot to mention that the 0-4-0 will do the radi that leads into the building too, and that radi is well, not really sure, but 6" is my guess. with that radi, the tender will not work though so if you have a dockside 0-4-0 you can do anything really. that was my plan, two trains on this, the 0-6-0 ran around bringing goods in, and a 0-4-0 would pick up the car, pull it to the siding and push it into the bulding, then get the empty from the other line in the samebuilding and put it back on the main line for the 0-6-0 to take off to the rest of the world. If you have doubts of this working, I do have a 10meg 40sec video that shows the 0-4-0 going from the main up to the siding and into the two lines that go into the building.
I also have vids of the two trains running the main line loop no tenders attached, in the vids though, but i did do tenders no on video.

Kevin

6????? this is Ho we are talking about

yup, HO Atlas code 100 to be exact is what is in those pics. I would guess the radi is 6" for those two into the building lines.

Kevin