why does everyone hate 4X8 layouts?

[jeffers_mz]

Man....

....it happens everytime.

You try to keep it light, stick to the positive, live and let live, and along comes a generalizer. You let them slide at first, maintaining civility, and they just get bolder, taking bigger and bigger bites out of you till they finally cross the line and start DISSIN A MAN'S CARPENTRY SKILZ.

Jeeze, why don't you just go ahead and shoot his dog?

Oh, no, we're NOT having any of that.

Not after 20 years running framing crews, a tap to set 'em, one whack to sink 'em, eights, sixteens, makes no difference. Not after gymnasiums, and churches and multi-million dollar houses for the likes of Adolph Coors and Lamar Hunt. Not after pushing convicts and drug dealers year round, 115 in the summer, minus 22 in the winter, ice so hard on the second floor ceiling joists that a 32 ounce framing hammer barely stars it, a mixed pitch 10/12-12/12 cut up puzzle of a hip roof needing set whether the wind takes your cigarette out of clenched teeth or not.

Not after an additional seven years of interior trim. Okay, I've finished out a few that ran under a mill but I don't brag about those. The biggest to date was 14,000 square feet of living space and 21k under roof. I suppose if someone wants to keep spraying when they have yet to wear out their first table saw, I'll debate "carpentry skills" them till cows turn blue, but until they so indicate, I'm willing to be generous and let it slide.

It's Christmas, you know?

Operations?

Maybe yes, maybe no. My four by eight allows only seven spurs, two of which are hidden and represent staging and an imaginary feeder city to my branchline. But two amounts to a lot when you run a freight down to Durango and it takes several hours to get unloaded, re-loaded and return.

Meantime the new train's up from Durango, needs broken down, reformed and most of it run on up to the mines. You know how those miner's are, always short on groceries and coal, I swear they eat both, and long on ore. Not just any ore, mind you, the RICHEST ore ever, and you'd think it was already burning a hole in their pockets the way they keep hollering over the telygraf. "Trains, we need trains." Got empties need deadheaded back down too ,both legs, the next load ain't going to WALK up there.

Burning daylight here, not moving any freight jacking jaws, dollar waiting on a dime, let's GO, people, whaddya waitin' on, CHRISTMAS?".

Yep, I reckon it'll keep my 11 year old busy for a couple years at least, and my six year old daughter ought to get close to a decade out of it if I can keep her mind off clothes and boys.

Now for my favorite...."round the walls takes WAY less space than a four by eight".

You know....


...talk's cheap.

A case of choice against my good friend James Beam says a four by eight is the largest option available, anyone feeling bold enough to back up some of that talk?

Here's the room:



Please note, oh ye of minimal faith, the sub nominal grade terrain visible in the image above. You're looking at twelve bucks fifty worth of lumber there, three studs, an eight foot two by two, and the rest scraps. The foam was scrap too.

Here's another view, from the far left corner of the pic above:



Yup, I had to really suck it in to squeeze back in there with a tripod to get that second pic.

Everything there either stays or gets parked in the snow, which, last time I looked outside, was about three feet deep.

(Heh, you didn't think it was going to be THAT easy, now didja?)

In a room not shown, you have an 11 year old boy sharing a pair of bunk beds with his six year old sister. Need I remind you of some pretty basic chemistry? Within a year, if luck holds, less if not, this same room ALSO has to absorb a kid, some clothes, and some toys.

Nope, still not done.

Come Sunday morning, ohhhh....'bout six thirty aye em, the room also has to find a spot for these guys too:



No cheatin', maintain access to all equipment and areas as shown or you lose.

That's me, I'm all in, knock yourselves out. The last raise is in, bets are called, it's time to show 'em if you got 'em, and fold if you don't, wafflers will be prosecuted. If you think you can find a way to squeeze more railroad into that room, in HO, without screwing up an already delicate status quo, your next buzz is on me. Any takers?

(Rubbing my hands, come to papa, Jimmy, my boy,.....daddy's gettin.....THIRS-teeee.)


;-)

[Don Gibson]

Ocalicreek:

A 10X12 room (such as a bedroom) can be illuminated by a single 100 watt bulb (and most are). IDEAL lighting is an overhead Valance illuminating the SCENE. Anything in-between is the builder's choice.

A 4X8 layout with train's running around every 12 second's is simply SIMPLER to build - it's main attraction - Plywood board's already come in that size. Cutting a Ply sheet into 4 1X8 board's add's $1 to the cost, takes up the same SPACE, and extend's the runing time by 4x - to 48 second's. 4 smaller support's instead of 1 large one, and as for entry - hinged gates were invented thousand's of year's ago. They also can swing UP as well as back & forth.

A layout along a wall using a corner is also a more efficient use of space - however it is supported.

The 4X8 is a holdover from the 'TOY TRAIN' era of Lionel with Table Tennis sized curves and plug-together track, for boy's and father's to enjoy together. Weve gone from 3 rail to 2 rail, and AC to DC - and now DCC, but in an era of realistic $250 engines with sound and $50 passenger cars, one can still elect to build a layout designed 60 year's ago. Problem is getting TODAY'S modern equipment to run on it.

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by UPFEF

Is a 4 x 8 "Z"scale layout to small and constrining?

Ohhh, yeah!

Why? Because if it is hard to fiddle with HO sized things reaching across a 4X8, I'd sure hate to be fiddling with Z-scale things in the same circumstances. At 53, I don't need the hassle.

[SpaceMouse]

Brakie,

I have said over and over in this thread that if you are informed and you have a specific reason for building a 4 x8 layout, then you should do so. Harold's 1870's 00 is a case in point--although he is expanding it. Where you got that I thought only newbees build 4 x 8's I don't know. I will add however, if a veteran chooses to build a 4 x8, you can be sure he's explored the alternatives.

[BRAKIE]

Chip,Again you are ASSUMING only newbies use 4x8 layouts..I know several veteran modelers that has built super nice 4x8s..
Would you rather have a newbie to jump into building a layout that might be way over his head and hobby budget? That leads to newbies throwing their hands up in disgust and finding a different hobby...[:(]

Sorry Chip,but,you need to rethink your bias against 4x8s.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by UPFEF

Is a 4 x 8 "Z"scale layout to small and constrining?

IT still takes up 8 x 10 feet of space and is harder to work than an 8 x 10 U shaped layout that can be controlled from the center.

[SpaceMouse]

OC,

While you have point, the biggest problem I have with the 4 x 8 is that the newbee jumps into them without planning. If they took the time to explore options, then they might go with a different route. Without logging onto a site like this, they are apt to buy a beginner's book which almost without exception steer them to a 4 x 8.

My contention is that if they look at small layout as a year or more project. (My 4 x 8 is about half-way done and a year old.) Then a day or two in the benchwork phase is negligible. If they tale the time to create a plan that takes into account their givens and druthers, (which assumes they take the time to figure their givens and druthers out) they will have a much higher level of satisfaction than if they choose plan 1 in the Atlas book and get up and running in one day. The planner will undoubtedly save hundreds if not thousands of dollars over the the person who built the get-it-up-and running-disposable layout.

And the planner might well choose to build a 4 x 8.

BTW. I just got the material for my backdrop on my 4 x 8. It will be on 3 sides and hinged to allow access to the tunnels.

[UPFEF]

Is a 4 x 8 "Z"scale layout to small and constrining?

[ocalicreek]

QUOTE: I'm not sure what your argument against the Yugo analogy is. However, the only difference is skills between the the 4 x 8 and the around the room is the ability to cut a piece of plywood and the lumber yard will do that for 25 cents a cut. I guess another skill would be getting the thing level, but now they make those cool lasers.

Yes, those lasers are cool indeed. Was looking at one in Sears the other day, and they're not all that expensive either.

Other considerations related to skill:

4x8 - no backdrop (unless down the center, along one or more sides, but then attached to the layout itself)

around the walls - would everyone agree that it works to create a better looking scene with a well done backdrop? Sure, this can be attached to modules around the room, but now we're looking at many more feet of whatever material used (masonite, styrene, vinyl, etc.) and a framework of sorts to attach it to...more serious carpentry.

4x8 - properly framed, only 4 legs needed, using 1x4 and 1x3s in an L shape.

around the walls - well, you could always mount it on a shelving system, but then that means mounting it to the walls (and eventually filling holes when moving) and if you're able to attach shelving brackets to the walls then the backdrop might as well go there too.) If you go the modular route, how many legs do you need? What sort of bracing do they require?

NOW there is an alternative for support for BOTH 4x8 and round the walls - freestanding shelving (like gorilla rack or other hammer together metal shelving with wood shelves). But ONE 7 foot hight shelving unit breaks down into three foot high and four foot high units, or two three foot units using the 4 foot lenght risers on each unit. These are 4' long by 18" deep. Using this or similar product:

4x8 - only one shelving unit required as "legs", broken down into two 3' high units, one under each end, and I'd inset these from the short ends by a foot so stubbed toes are kept at a minimum, perhaps.

around the walls - at LEAST one required. Let's be generous and say one 4' long by 18" deep and 3' high unit per wall, assuming the shelf layout above has adequate lengthwise bracing, you'd need two units for the room. Better to have at least three spaced out to provide good support. But then you also gain much more storage for all those unbuilt kits most of us seem to collect.

[Granted, a layout at 3 feet may not be ideal for someadults, but its perfect for alot of kids and many modular setups agree on a standard of 40" rail height above the floor, about where you'd end up with a 36" high shelving unit, 1x3 bracing under a 3/4" ply base, a strip of cork roadbed and track.]

4x8 - Day One - frame the plywood, set up shelving or sawhorses or legs, set the base on the supports, buy track componants listed in the plan book, lay track, wire it, run trains.

around the walls - Day One - prep room, install backdrop, let paint dry
Day Two - build modules or add framing to the strips the lumber yard cut for you, add legs (or use shelving), build a gate or at least a duckunder,
Day Three - then, if you haven't already while the paint was drying, determine where the track is going to go, because you'll need alot more than what the train set came with and it's up to you to determine what you'll need and where it goes. Lay track, wire it, run trains.

So I think there's alot more effort required to build an around the walls layout than to set up a 4x8.

OH, and then there's LIGHTING! (assuming the room lighting isn't adequate)

4x8 - set up a shop light (or two) with daylight flourescents and hang it from a PVC or wood frame attached to the short ends of the layout, or if possible, hang it from two eye hooks screwed into a beam in the ceiling. Most of these kits come with chain.

around the walls - shop lights provide great light directly beneath them. So at least one for each wall is needed, maybe more to avoid dark patches. Or, a more expensive alternative would be track lighting.

I'm not angry or frustrated here, just want to share a few ideas and learn from what others think. I really am enjoying this discussion, and don't feel like any horses have had to suffer in the process. I'm glad we have a forum to discuss these things. You reap what you sow.

Remember, it's better to walk a mile in a man's shoes before criticizing him. That way, you're a mile away AND you've got his shoes.
Ocalicreek

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson


It's the 'CHIA PET' of layout's.

I hope I can quote that.

ROFLMAO!

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: A 4x8 can be carried relatively easily from one area to another. It screams out portability. You can bring it to your audience. With a wall layout you have to bring your audience to the layout. -Tandem42

Sorry Bill, but a 4X8 is ANYTHING but small.

It won't fit into a car or around corners. D**n difficult to reach across, and takes up an entire room. Moving Van's have trouble with them since they stack everything. Since usage requires standing on the outside, like a dinning table, it requires a lot more room than just the table size. Modeler's that want portability build 2x4's.

It is a BEGINNER'S layout, requiring minimum time and Carpentry, which is it's main attraction, but for one to say it take's up "minimal space" amount's to a cover up.

It's the 'CHIA PET' of layout's. So what's wrong with that?

[selector]

Bottom line for me is that it is too constraining. With modifications, it can be less so. Most modelers graduate to something different...not necessarily bigger, just different. When you ask them if they would return to a 4X8, they empathically say no.

That said, I do understand the allure of the 4X8. It is sometimes the only way a person can introduce themselves to the hobby. It is, indeed, a good learning tool. If it serves that purpose, most learn that they need something else if they want the most out of the hobby.

-Crandell

[Anonymous]

How about a layout that is constructed and stored in one area and used and displayed on a temporary basis in another area? Or when you don't have a dedicated area to use for a layout?

A 4x8 can be carried relatively easily from one area to another. It screams out portability. You can bring it to your audience. With a wall layout you have to bring your audience to the layout.

You can work on it in the garage, bring it into the house when the kids, friends, etc. come over and then back out when they leave.

It's ideal for a Christmas tree layout where you don't want to spend a lot of time constructing it in place. Bring it in and put it down, set up the tree on it and you're good to go.

Bill

[talon104]

Dont know about this thread but, if i can add my two cents since this is still going on . I think it is really the persons choice on what they want out of there layout , the area they have to work with ( or in) skills etc.
Take me for instance i'm a rookie at this i guess and so i started out with a 4x8 as a starter layout. hopefully this will give me the opportunity to learn things that i need to learn and experiment with different ideas that all these great guys have to offer.if it doestn look that great in my opinion the oh well i can trash it and restart. Also, it way benificial for the space i have right now since i'm doing it on one side of my garage with is 2 car garage at that.
Also, the way i feel by some of the info i have read about from some guys is unless it really becomes a flop [:(] i can add on to it in a "L" shape or something . which i can kick myself in the Ar$$ cause i didnt leave myself the option with out pulling up some track on a turn and putting in a switch or something but, oh well i can deal with it for now.
So, in all the 4x8 i think has benifits to some and not to others .some guys are lucky and have whole rooms and such to build it ,and others have to figure moer out in a 4x8
That is just my [2c]
chris

[jecorbett]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

So much for "Everyone" hating 4x8's, for every layout larger than 4x8 there must be 500,000 4x8 layouts, so on it goes: 4x8= not big enough, 8x18= not big enough, 24x48=not big enough, when does it end? when you run out of money??(according to some layouts this will never happen) have you actually read of the size of some of theses monster layouts, guys are actually building their houses to accomodate the train stuff, Hooray for 4x8.

I plead guilty. I built a 48X28 basement and designed the house to go over the top of it.

[BRAKIE]

Chip,You conceded to soon..I was about to mark this up as a lost cause due to the bias against the 4x8 layout and those veteran modelers that chooses to design and operate a 4x8 layout due to space reasons and didn't want to attach bracing to their walls or build modulars.Like you I guess my points was misinterpreted as well.Now over the years I have built 4 4x8 layouts and tons of my favorite type of layout-the industrial switching layout.I have even built a N Scale layout on a 36"x 72" hollow core door.Believe it or not I also built a rather interesting industrial switching layout complete with a short run around track on this door when I returned to HO.

BTW..A duck under is not a evil thing in some cases..Our club layout has 4 duck unders that is needed to get to the yard operator pits.

[SpaceMouse]

Brakie,

The duck-under is your asumption. I go to great lengths not to have them.

Again with the Yugo thing--you missed the point entirely.

Since, I can't seem seem to say things in a way that is not misinterpreted, I'll conceed. You've worn me down. I'll start collecting a bunch of loops & spurs to email to newbees when they ask for a good layout.

[BRAKIE]

Chip,I have built several round the walls layouts and know for a fact those modulars you mention takes up space that may not be available for a layout and will NOT work across a door way unless you want to enter the layout room by a ducking under a modular.
BTW..A 4x8 is not a Yugo by any means. and a poor comparison seeing that a Yogo takes up more space then a 4X8 would..[;)]

[tatans]

So much for "Everyone" hating 4x8's, for every layout larger than 4x8 there must be 500,000 4x8 layouts, so on it goes: 4x8= not big enough, 8x18= not big enough, 24x48=not big enough, when does it end? when you run out of money??(according to some layouts this will never happen) have you actually read of the size of some of theses monster layouts, guys are actually building their houses to accomodate the train stuff, Hooray for 4x8.

[BRAKIE]

Don,You're still fishing and still way off the fish.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ocalicreek

A couple more thoughts...apparantly nothing in my first response wasn't controversial enough for a reply...or maybe it's because I only have 7 posts. Or maybe because my situation (read my previous post) is an actual scenario where a 4x8 trumps an around the walls layout. Anyway,

You can't take the fact that no one responded personally. Maybe it is so easy for someone to respond to a previous thread and side step yours a couple times untill it gets buried. IT's very easy to get your comment lost. Happens to me all the time. It is frustrating sometimes, but part of the nature of this type of forum.

QUOTE: An advantage a 4x8 has over a round the walls layout in a comparably sized room (say 10x12 - one large, deep scene can be viewed all at once, allowing for interesting flexibility in scenic composition. Think F&SM style city scenery with a Belt Line running around/through/under buildings, over murky rivers and down streets. Small steam or diesel switchers and 40' cars could do well in such a setting and the tight curves would look right at home. No need for half buildings or shallow relief flats squeezed between the wall and the tracks.

Maybe a great misconception or false assumption when planning a 4x8 is trying to make it a collection of linked linear scenes. Admittedly, we modelers do use selective compression in turning often long, straight railroads into curving railroads. And, I agree with an above post that one can put a divider down the middle lengthwise to get two distinct scenes. But again this is linear thinking applied to a loop setting. Not bad or wrong, but limited if it's the only option considered.

All along I've tried to distingish betwen the sophisticated modeler who choses a 4 x 8 to acheive a specific result with the newbee who chooses a 4 x 8 because he has 6 Atlas Track Plans and the "easy" one is a 4 x 8.

QUOTE:
Now - to bat for the other team, around the walls designs may be better for folks in wheelchairs or with mobility restrictions. Would a gate or duckunder be a problem? I don't know. But folks who aren't in a wheel chair seem to either love them or hate them, depending on how well they're constructed. I've seen some that are flawless, and others quite flawed - gates, that is.

IMHO, if a person at all has an inkling that maybe, just maybe they'd enjoy just sitting back and watching a train run, or using it as a test track or break-in course for locos, then what's the harm in building a 4x8 primarily as a point to point with a staging tracks and a destination with a large industry, and yes, even an interchange with ALSO a link to allow continuous running - or maybe a line heading off to that other railroad which might make an appearance to spot its interchange traffic?

I agree with the above posters that it's up to the folks in this hobby with some experience to kindly share when asked or write good articles for the various magazines (like Don Spiro's recent series in RMC - what sounds like a great around the walls layout).

However, I have to disagree with this:

>Saying athat having a 4 x 8 layout is better than no layout is like selling someone a >Yugo because they don't have a lot of room in their garage when they can have an Mini->cooper. It's simply a better option for the space.

My first car was an old Volvo that my folks bought new and had hung onto. The tires were nearly bald, it had no AC, it was a faded mustard yellow, with 4 on the floor. It was a tank and a great first car for a teenager. I graduated to a Honda Accord, again, a used car but definately nicer. Will I ever own a really nice luxury car? Probably not on my salary.

Space isn't the only consideration. Skill level, patience, the influence of other modelers (or lack thereof), being able to follow a plan in MR or some other planning book and arrive at a successful first layout, all these and more come into play.

I'm not sure what your argument against the Yugo analogy is. However, the only difference is skills between the the 4 x 8 and the around the room is the ability to cut a piece of plywood and the lumber yard will do that for 25 cents a cut. I guess another skill would be getting the thing level, but now they make those cool lasers.

QUOTE: When my son is old enough to have his own HO (or N if he chooses...I guess) trains then will I rush out and buy the latest highly detailed steamer with sound, or a nice, forgive me, train set with a loco, a few cars, and a loop of track? Will I let him play with his Dad's trains (er, run his Dad's model railroad, sorry) or will he get his own layout?

My first layout was a loop...not sure if it was 4x8, probably was...on a tabletop painted green and a few plasticville structures. I never got bored watching the trains go around. I'd hunker down next to the track and watch them at eye level, from different vantage points around the layout. It was even more fun at night, especially when we got a tunnel. Then the anticipation of watching the headlight of that Athearn Pennsy F7 light up all in its path until it came around to where I was at was just thrilling. I hope I never lose that sense of joy just watching a train, no matter how much I learn about operations, or how many rivets to count, or the correct door and ends for certain types of box cars. That's where so many start out. Can they experience that on an around the walls layout? Sure. Is it always as practical or realistic an option as a 4x8, No.

Ocalicreek

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

4X8 layouts will always be around, if for no other reason than that's the most commonly available size of plywood sheets.

That's exactly why I have one. I wanted a place for my son to run trains while I figured out what I wanted in a basement layout so I grabbed a 4x8 sheet of plywood, built a table and I'm still building on it--a two year side track.

[Pruitt]

This horse has not only been beaten to death, it's been pummeled past the point of even being hamburger!!!! [:o)]

4X8 layouts will always be around, if for no other reason than that's the most commonly available size of plywood sheets.

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cuyama

Let me say first that I don't actually hate the 4X8 -- but I wi***he commercial press would discuss the alternatives.

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER
If you put one 4 ft end against the wall the 12 feet reduces to 10 feet while leaving adequate access from the sides.
<snip>
This means that you can make it work with an 8x10 ft room.

You can also make a more interesting alternative work in an 8X10 room. This one needs a little work on access, but just for consideration.



'nuff said

I wasn't trying to make a value judgement. My point was that a 10x12 space is not required for a 4x8 layout, you can make it work in an 8x10 space.

For the two you drew I would chose the 4x8, because the other one has serious access problems in the two lobes - making it very difficult to build and maintain. It also allows no access to any closet that you might have.

Enjoy
Paul

[ocalicreek]

A couple more thoughts...apparantly nothing in my first response wasn't controversial enough for a reply...or maybe it's because I only have 7 posts. Or maybe because my situation (read my previous post) is an actual scenario where a 4x8 trumps an around the walls layout. Anyway,

An advantage a 4x8 has over a round the walls layout in a comparably sized room (say 10x12 - one large, deep scene can be viewed all at once, allowing for interesting flexibility in scenic composition. Think F&SM style city scenery with a Belt Line running around/through/under buildings, over murky rivers and down streets. Small steam or diesel switchers and 40' cars could do well in such a setting and the tight curves would look right at home. No need for half buildings or shallow relief flats squeezed between the wall and the tracks.

Maybe a great misconception or false assumption when planning a 4x8 is trying to make it a collection of linked linear scenes. Admittedly, we modelers do use selective compression in turning often long, straight railroads into curving railroads. And, I agree with an above post that one can put a divider down the middle lengthwise to get two distinct scenes. But again this is linear thinking applied to a loop setting. Not bad or wrong, but limited if it's the only option considered.

Now - to bat for the other team, around the walls designs may be better for folks in wheelchairs or with mobility restrictions. Would a gate or duckunder be a problem? I don't know. But folks who aren't in a wheel chair seem to either love them or hate them, depending on how well they're constructed. I've seen some that are flawless, and others quite flawed - gates, that is.

IMHO, if a person at all has an inkling that maybe, just maybe they'd enjoy just sitting back and watching a train run, or using it as a test track or break-in course for locos, then what's the harm in building a 4x8 primarily as a point to point with a staging tracks and a destination with a large industry, and yes, even an interchange with ALSO a link to allow continuous running - or maybe a line heading off to that other railroad which might make an appearance to spot its interchange traffic?

I agree with the above posters that it's up to the folks in this hobby with some experience to kindly share when asked or write good articles for the various magazines (like Don Spiro's recent series in RMC - what sounds like a great around the walls layout).

However, I have to disagree with this:

>Saying athat having a 4 x 8 layout is better than no layout is like selling someone a >Yugo because they don't have a lot of room in their garage when they can have an Mini->cooper. It's simply a better option for the space.

My first car was an old Volvo that my folks bought new and had hung onto. The tires were nearly bald, it had no AC, it was a faded mustard yellow, with 4 on the floor. It was a tank and a great first car for a teenager. I graduated to a Honda Accord, again, a used car but definately nicer. Will I ever own a really nice luxury car? Probably not on my salary.

Space isn't the only consideration. Skill level, patience, the influence of other modelers (or lack thereof), being able to follow a plan in MR or some other planning book and arrive at a successful first layout, all these and more come into play. When my son is old enough to have his own HO (or N if he chooses...I guess) trains then will I rush out and buy the latest highly detailed steamer with sound, or a nice, forgive me, train set with a loco, a few cars, and a loop of track? Will I let him play with his Dad's trains (er, run his Dad's model railroad, sorry) or will he get his own layout?

My first layout was a loop...not sure if it was 4x8, probably was...on a tabletop painted green and a few plasticville structures. I never got bored watching the trains go around. I'd hunker down next to the track and watch them at eye level, from different vantage points around the layout. It was even more fun at night, especially when we got a tunnel. Then the anticipation of watching the headlight of that Athearn Pennsy F7 light up all in its path until it came around to where I was at was just thrilling. I hope I never lose that sense of joy just watching a train, no matter how much I learn about operations, or how many rivets to count, or the correct door and ends for certain types of box cars. That's where so many start out. Can they experience that on an around the walls layout? Sure. Is it always as practical or realistic an option as a 4x8, No.

Ocalicreek

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Good morning Chip..Again you didn't understand this part of my reply:I feel there is probably less round the walls layouts as well as many people doesn't want to attach bracing to the walls of their homes in the event they would need to sell the house..What part of that don't you understand? I didn't mention those that can't because they rent.I thought we was discussing the evils of 4x8s not advocating round the walls layouts which I also advocate if possible.After all you 4x8 bashers just had to start bashing 4x8s in order to get your closed mind ideas across while not understanding the need for 4x8s layouts by unknown thousands of modelers for many reasons.
Again a 4x8 layout BEATS NO LAYOUT! What is so hard to understand that?

Reread my post above and you'll see that I addressed all this before.

I don't hate 4 x 8's--I have one.

Around the walls layouts do not have to be attatched to the walls. They can be free-standing. They can be built in modules for easy moving.

They can have return loops for continuous running.

Saying athat having a 4 x 8 layout is better than no layout is like selling someone a Yugo because they don't have a lot of room in their garage when they can have an Mini-cooper. It's simply a better option for the space.

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: "Again a 4x8 layout BEATS NO LAYOUT! What is so hard to understand that?"

I understand, and the same anolgogy hold's true for a 1'X2' board - which is really a pretty POOR excuse for building ANYTHING! I suppose that a house that leaks is better than NO house at all, but by how much?

LARRY: A few questiones ...
1. Have you ever BUILT a 4X8?
2. Do you still OPERATE on it?
3.How much SPACE does it take up?

NEWS FLASH: A 4X8 requires access 'aisles', and 3' is barely enough for two people to 'squeeze' by (try it on a doorway).

If using the 'Aisleway's for the layout, with 4X8 for PEOPLE, takes up identical space, WHY do people REALLY build 4X8'S? (You know the answer).


Larry, EVERY layout has limitation's - but then so does it's owner. Do I really need to expound?


CARRfan:: get some graph paper and draw your 10X12 space then fit a 3X8 yard with 2 staggered dog bones (long/short) for 22" loop return's ; OR 1X8 sides and rear with 4' 'Gate.

As I remember, A SET OF DRUMS occupy's 10X12 on a bandstand. You may have to do what OUR drummer's did - keep them packed in the car.

[BRAKIE]

Good morning Chip..Again you didn't understand this part of my reply:I feel there is probably less round the walls layouts as well as many people doesn't want to attach bracing to the walls of their homes in the event they would need to sell the house..What part of that don't you understand? I didn't mention those that can't because they rent.I thought we was discussing the evils of 4x8s not advocating round the walls layouts which I also advocate if possible.After all you 4x8 bashers just had to start bashing 4x8s in order to get your closed mind ideas across while not understanding the need for 4x8s layouts by unknown thousands of modelers for many reasons.
Again a 4x8 layout BEATS NO LAYOUT! What is so hard to understand that?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Guys,I have advocated for years that a 4x8 layout beats no layout and I will continue to pu***hat thought as long as I live. I fully believe there are far more 4x8s in this hobby then the basement or room size empires we all dream about and see in magazines.I feel there is probably less round the walls layouts as well as many people doesn't want to attach bracing to the walls of their homes in the event they would need to sell the house.
Many of you may recall I prefer a industrial switching layout above all other types.However ask yourself this..Would you be contended switching cars for 1-11/2 hours remembering that switching cars can become boring after awhile and not being able to set back and watch a train roll? It takes deep dedication to the industrial switching layout far more then the majority of the modelers have for the switching types of layouts so,for many its a 4x8 or no layout..

Why do you associate non-4 x8 with non-continous running? Ceratinly a non-4x8 can run continuously. Look at Byron's example above.

[BRAKIE]

Guys,I have advocated for years that a 4x8 layout beats no layout and I will continue to pu***hat thought as long as I live. I fully believe there are far more 4x8s in this hobby then the basement or room size empires we all dream about and see in magazines.I feel there is probably less round the walls layouts as well as many people doesn't want to attach bracing to the walls of their homes in the event they would need to sell the house.
Many of you may recall I prefer a industrial switching layout above all other types.However ask yourself this..Would you be contended switching cars for 1-11/2 hours remembering that switching cars can become boring after awhile and not being able to set back and watch a train roll? It takes deep dedication to the industrial switching layout far more then the majority of the modelers have for the switching types of layouts so,for many its a 4x8 or no layout..