Why have manufacturers abandoned anybody modeling before WW1?

[rolleiman]

I believe F units were in use into the 1980s on some railroads.. A keen eye could even see some Alcos running around in industrial yards... As for pre-WW1 steamers, find yourself a copy of the Guide to North American Steam Locomitives, by kalmbach and I'm sure you'll be able to find matches somewhere.. This particular book only deals with post 1900 but there's a lot of information to give a jumping off point into research.. Just to flip open the book, page 278, New York Central, 2-8-0, Class G-96, Road #s 513-527 build by Brooks, 1905-1907.. The first 2-8-2s listed, and there were 122 of them, rebuilt in the Brooks shops in 1912...

So how far before WW1 do you want to go?? If you are trying to be true to some prototype, I can respect that but, why not write your own railroads history?? I've seen it done and to get the story off the ground, it's very effective..

Then of course there are Logging railroads.. One I would suggest looking at is the Little River Logging company.. It's Not narrow gauge, but standard gauge.. There is/was a book published "Whistles Over the Mountain" that gives a tie by tie description. It even describes where (near Gattlinberg TN) you can walk some of the route and get a feel of the terrain. Had shays, rodded locos, even mallets (2-4-4-2).. Pretty neat railroad to model... Or come up with your own.. Shays (1880-1944), Climax (1888-1923), Heisler (1891-1941) according the steam locomotive book.

I know you didn't ask this sort of question, I'm just tossing ideas to help get you your pre-WW1 layout.

As for me, I'm a WWII railfan, born in 1963. Outside of an amusement park, never saw a steam engine run, in person, but I still enjoy the models.

Jeff
[swg]

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

As far as I can tell, a switch engine from any time prior to WW1 (other than the out of production Mantua camelbacks) has never been made. Never.

Dave - Aristo-Craft Distinctive Miniatures made several different pre-WWI (actually pre-1900) switchers in Zamac for HO scale around 1960. Don't know if they could be re-motored, or if it would even be worth the trouble, but they certainly did once exist.

CNJ831

[andrechapelon]

I don't buy that. Steam engines stopped operating generally about 1956. Assuming "adulthood" means 18, that would mean that only 65+ year olds liked steam engines. There have been a dozen new steam models released in the last couple years, the manufacturers seem to think they have a market there.

You forget. The marketers go after the money and people over 50 are generally more affluent than those who are younger. We also generally had toy trains as kids. That's not all that common now. We have more money to spend on the hobby and we often buy more than one copy of the same locomotive. And you don't need to be 65+ to remember steam in regular service. Trust me on this. When you're 5 years old, a D&RGW C-48 standard gauge 2-8-0 makes a BIG impression as does a GS-4 powered Daylight when you're 8. Then there are those cab-forward helpers in Tehachapi.

Let me go back to your original question: Why have manufacturers abandoned anybody modeling before WW1? It seems unless you are narrow gauge, the model railroad suppliers think railroads were invented in 1945. The first 75 years of railroad history is completely ignored.

How many manufacturers make a reasonable quality (at least as good as an Accurail or Athearn) pre WW1 car in R-T-R or plastic kit? One, MDC and then only 2 or 3 body styles. Westerfield and LaBelle offer craftsman kits that can be used for post 1900 layout.


The manufacturers haven't "abandoned" the pre-WWI market because it wasn't really there to begin with. As for narrow gauge, most narrow gauge modelers model one of the Colorado narrow gauge lines (or free lance versions of same) the way they were in the 30's and 40's. There are a few who model earlier eras (Paul Scoles comes to mind), but most narrow gaugers stick roughly to the same time frame as their steam era standard gauge counterparts.

With what's currently available, it's quite possible to come up with a reasonable looking pre-WWI railroad (Bill Henderson's 1916 era Coal Belt comes to mind, not to mention Don Ball's 1899 era Moraga Springs Northern - http://home.jps.net/~dlball/msn/ ).

Why the insistence on plastic?

Andre

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon
Mantua used to make a kit for a 4-8-0. Occasionally you can find one on Ebay. Currently, there are 3 for sale. Who knows? Maybe Model Power will re-release the engine.

Andre

Point of information. The Mantua 4-8-0 and 4-6-0 oldtime locomotives (the former also referred to as the "Hooterville Cannonball") are both decidedly out of scale. They were actually designed as OO scale locomotives. Late 19th century and turn-of-the-century locomotives were physically quite small and even today it's difficult to produce a really good running example of these engines in HO scale because of the necessary small size of the motor/flywheel. To really see a contrast, compare one of the late Mantuas with their 1940's Belle of the 80's American or Eight-Ball Mogul to see the true size difference.

In the late 1950's through the 1960's quite a number of 1880's-1900's HO locomotives were produced in brass - and surprising number even in Zamac (see Aristo-Craft, et al.) - but all were poor runners. Some tender-drive examples were tried but they weren't altogether successful either. I think the manufacturers learned their lesson from that and have rarely ventured back to those engines.

CNJ831

[rrinker]

Ah but Dave, look at the HUGE popularity of the WWII era - how many movies now, and computer games, and everything else. That era has been so in the forefront over the past 5 years or so that practically EVERYONE knows something about it. So I think that's skewing the statistics a bit. Otherwise, the idea of the average modeller modelling their childhood is about right on. I'm a few years early, I wasn't born in 1956, but I REALLY dislike the green and yellow.
Take a look at the old magazines from the 50's - LOTS of people then doing turn of the century stuff. Look at all those old Binkley and Central Valley kits - all turn of the century stuff! Now to duplicate stuff like that you have people like Craig Bisgeier making custom resin molds so he can get the freight cars he needs.

--Randy

[andrechapelon]

When Athearn gets more of the ex-MDC stuff back in production, there should be more equipment available.

MDC had a 2-8-0, 2-6-0 and 4-4-0 which would be perfect for a pre-WWI layout (not to mention the Shay, which Bachmann also has).

MDC had a pretty full line of old time freight cars (box, tank, reefer, caboose - which pretty much covers it except for gons and flats) and also had some nice 80' passenger cars from the turn of the century, not to mention the 1870/1880's passenger cars.

The Spectrum 4-6-0 can be backdated by removing the Walschaert valve gear. The undec version also comes with 2 different cabs IIRC (1 wood). Go to the Bachmann site, go to Ask The Bach-Man and click on the picture gallery at the top of the page. The picture of V&T #27 is on page 14 of the gallery. For some reason, I can't give you a direct link. Start at: http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/

Labelle Woodworking has a complete line of late 1800's to turn of the century passenger car kits: http://www.labellemodels.com/dhop.htm#top

And freight car kits: http://www.labellemodels.com/dhof.htm#top

You might want to go to http://markschutzer.com/index.htm and look at the superb job he did detailing an MDC 2-8-0 to resemble SP #2500 as it appeared around 1915. Go down to the picture marked "MDC Old TIme Consolidation".

Model Power also offers an old time 2-8-0 and 4-6-0.

Mantua used to make a kit for a 4-8-0. Occasionally you can find one on Ebay. Currently, there are 3 for sale. Who knows? Maybe Model Power will re-release the engine.

If you want to model the pre-WWI period, you're going to have to "make do" with craftsman kits. There's just not the same kind of market as for later periods.

Andre

[dehusman]

jeffschultz said:
"Because they realize that people tend to model eras related to when they grew up or reached adulthood."

I don't buy that. Steam engines stopped operating generally about 1956. Assuming "adulthood" means 18, that would mean that only 65+ year olds liked steam engines. There have been a dozen new steam models released in the last couple years, the manufacturers seem to think they have a market there.

Probably 50% of modelers NEVER saw a F unit in regular freight service. But there are a gazillion F units out there.

cacole said:
"It would be too much of a niche market and sales would not pay for the design and production costs."

I also don't buy that. Look at the steam locos that have been offered in the last several years.
PRR 2-10-4 : there were only 125 EVER built and they were used by only ONE railroad and only on a small part of their system.
UP 4-8-8-4 : There were less than 30 EVER built and they were used by only ONE railroad and were only used on a small part of their system. They lasted for less than 20 years in service.
4-6-6-4: There were less than 100 built for three railroads. They lasted for less than 20 years in service.
2-6-6-4: There were less than 100 built for one railroad.

Talk about your niche markets. Except for the 2-10-4, NONE of those chassis are useable under another design boiler shell, they were all unique wheel arrangements used just once. Yet those were all considered to be valid "business cases". Making a good quality small 2-8-0 that was used by virtually every railroad in the US for decades is a bad business case? That's like saying it would be a bad bet to make a GP-7.

cacole said:
"I have a set of Civil War era cars that were made by IHC, and USRA designs came about during the War to End All Wars, so in a way we do have post-WWI era models, but nothing between the Civil War and WWI."

Think about that, 1865 to 1918. 53 years. That's like the model manufacturers skipped every single engine between the FT and the SD70.

The gondola was used like a hopper car in the 1880-1910 era. MDC could have cast one, one piece shell and provided a gondola car on their existing truss rod underframe. They already had 2 varieties of trucks, they already had all the underframe parts, they already had the underbody details.

Dave H.

[selector]

That is correct, Jeff. Let's face it, this hobby is deeply rooted in nostalgia. Any one person's ability to enjoy the nostalgia is anchored in their past, a personal experience. As fewer modelers buy fewer models of that era, it becomes increasingly less profitable to manufacture them. Bottom line - the business case.

[ereimer]

agree 100% . i'm planing a 1900-1905 era layout and loco's and rolling stock aren't easy to come by . thank bachmann for their 4-6-0 as that's the most common loco used by my prototype (Santa Fe , Prescott and Phoenix . became part of ATSF in 1903 ) . i'll probably get a couple of their 2-8-0s as well since other railroads in the area used them . i think i can do a convincing conversion by adding a diamond stack and a big cow-catcher type pilot to the 4-6-0s . craftsman kits will provide most of the rolling stock , kitbashing and <gulp> scratchbuilding will be required for some items like water cars .

[cacole]

It would be too much of a niche market and sales would not pay for the design and production costs. I have a set of Civil War era cars that were made by IHC, and USRA designs came about during the War to End All Wars, so in a way we do have post-WWI era models, but nothing between the Civil War and WWI. The USRA was formed in 1917, when the US entered World War I, and there are still many USRA models being made, particularly of steam locomotives.

[jeffshultz]

Because they realize that people tend to model eras related to when they grew up or reached adulthood.

And, well, unfortunately most of the people who would remember the Pre-WWII era have passed on.

I suspect they believe they'd never get the volume needed to make back the investment.

[SpaceMouse]

YEAH, Dang it.

[dehusman]

Why have manufacturers abandoned anybody modeling before WW1? It seems unless you are narrow gauge, the model railroad suppliers think railroads were invented in 1945. The first 75 years of railroad history is completely ignored.

How many manufacturers make a reasonable quality (at least as good as an Accurail or Athearn) pre WW1 car in R-T-R or plastic kit? One, MDC and then only 2 or 3 body styles. Westerfield and LaBelle offer craftsman kits that can be used for post 1900 layout.

How many manufactures make a good running 1890-1910 era engine? One. The IHC NYO&W camelback 2-6-0, about as obscure a choice for an engine as can be had. There are several that can be backdated and several out of production models can be tuned up, but nothing is available off the shelf. Think about it. F units were only in production from 1939 to about 1959. 20 years. And we have literally dozens upon dozens of variations of F units from every concievable manufacturer. Yet an entire nation's production for 75 years is more or less ignored. We have at least 5 versions of USRA 2-8-2's, two or three versions of USRA 4-6-2's. Only one manufacturer makes a decent 2-8-0 and that, along with the 4-4-0, were the most common engines ever built. Instead we have models of 4-6-6-4's, streamlined 4-8-4's, etc. All of which were only every used on maybe 5% of the US railroad system by a handfull of railroads. The entire, all time production of those engines probably wouldn't equal one month's production of 4-4-0's, 4-6-0's and 2-8-0's in late 1800's.

As far as I can tell, a switch engine from any time prior to WW1 (other than the out of production Mantua camelbacks) has never been made. Never.

Its like as if model airplane manufacturers decided that they would just never make another biplane or ship model makers decided that they would never make another sailing ship.

Its a small market now of course, the only way to model it is to scratchbuild or kitbash everything and there are fewer and fewer modelers willing to do that.
The sad thing is it offeres so many advantages. Cars and locomotives were smaller (30, 34 and 36 ft were most common), trains were shorter (a 40 car train was huge) and speed were slower (25 mph was tops for a freight in most places, passenger trains went 45-60). All the things that HELP make a small layout seem bigger.

I think that the manufacturers are missing a huge opportunity here.

Dave H.