REQUEST! Lobby for a classic topics section in this forum?

[cuyama]

As someone who has recently been presenting some ideas in the context of a forum clinic, I know how frustrating it is for the time spent answering a question to be "wasted" when the topic is quickly buried by "my halloween costume" threads.

The forum is an ephemeral (and fickle) medium. In the future, I'll probably just try to do something on my website or a blog and refer to it here.

The idea of a permanent place for clinics of this type is intriguing, but the big question is "Who would edit and choose?" The "thread of useful threads" that was tried on this forum (and others have referred to) soon collapsed under it own weight. Some of the "useful" threads being suggested seemed much better than others. To me, that is. And that's my point.

So who would choose and what would the criteria be?

Should people like Joe and me who have model railroad-related side jobs be excluded? Otherwise, many suppliers will be creating and submitting "clinics" that are thinly-disguised ads.

On the other hand, because Joe and I are just generally helpful individuals and all-around great guys and some poster with 8000 posts and 6 cerulean stars thinks we're cool, should whatever we write be included? Or because we've both been authors in Kalmbach publications, should we get a free pass to make anything we write a "sticky"?

I'm not much for conspiracy theories, so I think our hosts at Kalmbach simply recognize that trying to choose between posts to make something "sticky" is a losing proposition. They'll only make people mad at what's been included or excluded. It seems unlikely that Kalmbach would willing to spend a lot of editor's time on the project (not only to pick the winners but to spend hours molifying the losers).

On "the other leading brand" forum, a decision has been made that some threads will be given a place of prominence. Selecting Joe Fugate's scenery clinic as the first one is an easy choice, of course. But what about the next one? Or the fourth one? Or the twenty-thrid one? As and when that forum gets more populous, the same challenges will be seen as over here. Who chooses -- and how do they justify the choice?

Well, I've now wasted most of my daily forum time allotment on replying to this thread. I hope someone will read it before it's followed by twenty-eight well-intentioned "Joe F. is a genius!" threads. Hey, he's a friend, I know he's terrific. I had to follow him in a magazine editor's job -- how big were those shoes to fill? But it's not the obviously useful threads by thoughtful people that would be a problem in this "sticky nirvana". It's the non-deserving threads and the challenge of choosing between them and justifying those choices.

regards,

Byron

[oleirish]

QUOTE: Originally posted by novicerr

I will vote yes on it, and maybe suggest the topic on the 70th anniversory boxcar can now be dropped, allowing more space.

[:)]I think you have the right idea,do away W/70th anniversory and drop it in that slot,that would be great my.002 cents worth
JIM

[jfugate]

I don't have any intention of abandoning this forum with regards to answering questions and that sort of thing. I'm just questioning the value of the FORUM CLINICS since the effort I put into them is based on the notion they will be something that will hang around somehow.

But regardless of what happens here, I'll make accommodation for them via my web site (link in my signature), and keep updating, refining and improving them there.

Frankly, I think this forum could use some reorganization into a few more sections, but I don't think any of us wants the forum dividing to "go to seed" and end up at the opposite extreme of a forum with so many sections you don't know where to begin posting or reading.

I feel those who disagree have valid points, but I was hoping there might be some middle ground somewhere?

[Anonymous]

The heat has gotten some what intense on this, but to offer a possible suggestion to address the "main problem" might be a summary of useful topics like "clinics" and other valuable "information" as a sticky topic in what ever existing forum catagory is appropriate. I believe Aggro Jones had such a topic at one time with links to the topics of general interest and other consolidated useful information. As new topics are created they could be added to the topic post with a general discription, and a link to the specific subject topic. This might be a useful way to "catalog" classic posts and an easier way to "bump" a group of useful posts to the top of the forum. I have to admire the dedication to the hobby that has produced many of the "classic topics" being addressed here, and can understand the desire to have some of the cost of production in time and product by those who have invested in providing useful information both in clinic format and in topics that many of those present here have added to the enjoyment and education in the "Hobby" of Model Railroading.
Regards to those who I concider friends and mentors here and elsewhere in the hobby.
Will

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Are posters here so truly naive that they do not see that creating a "classics" forum - likely to include mostly instructional clinics and detailed discussions on trackwork, scenery, DCC, operations, etc. - would be offering for free that which Kalmbach gains considerable revenue from through the sale of its magazines, instructional books, PDFs, and now DVDs? Kalmbach offer us these free forums. Breifly appearing "clinics" do them no harm...a permanent listing surely could. They would be absolute fools to cut deeply into their own bottom line in such a manner, so is there any wonder that there has been no comment from management's side? Wake up fellas!

CNJ831

With all due resepct, if that's the way they think they don't understand Internet culture. On the other hand print media businesses are usually slower to catch on to the information age paradigm.

Well, Chip, while I don't have any idea of your occupation, I have to ask if you would offer a space at the front door of your business for someone to set up shop and give away their version of the identical products you sell to make a living and feed your family?

CNJ831

May I suggest you all go up tp the top of this page and click on the link called Model Railroader or go to this link http://www.trains.com/maghomepage/maghomepage.asp?idMagazine=3
on the right you'lll see a set of topics under a heading called Modeling. Each one of those leads to a set of article links for that topic. These are all free and include Scenery, Layout Planning, ABC's of Model Railroading etc. There are dozens of articles.

Far from fighting this idea MR has already embraced it.

Enjoy
Paul

[SpaceMouse]

I'm a vitamin store guy. But in a previous incarnation I was an academic studying the sociology and implications of the information age on business and literacy. In 1993 I put my money where my mouth was and opened a mail order vitamin business. In 1996 we hit the Internet at a point where we had to write our own shopping cart because none were commercially available. I designed a just-in-time distribution system that was unique at the time but is now an cross industry standard practice. During the Internet boom of the late 1990's our company was making a profit while others were playing the operate-at-a-loss-for market-share-IPO game and we sold out in 2000 just before the crash.

If I were Klambach I would encourage these forums and advertise them--and in case you didn't notice the last Model Railroader email update mentioned one of Joe's clinics as an enticement to visit the forum.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Are posters here so truly naive that they do not see that creating a "classics" forum - likely to include mostly instructional clinics and detailed discussions on trackwork, scenery, DCC, operations, etc. - would be offering for free that which Kalmbach gains considerable revenue from through the sale of its magazines, instructional books, PDFs, and now DVDs? Kalmbach offer us these free forums. Breifly appearing "clinics" do them no harm...a permanent listing surely could. They would be absolute fools to cut deeply into their own bottom line in such a manner, so is there any wonder that there has been no comment from management's side? Wake up fellas!

CNJ831

With all due resepct, if that's the way they think they don't understand Internet culture. On the other hand print media businesses are usually slower to catch on to the information age paradigm.

Well, Chip, while I don't have any idea of your occupation, I have to ask if you would offer a space at the front door of your business for someone to set up shop and give away their version of the identical products you sell to make a living and feed your family?

CNJ831

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Are posters here so truly naive that they do not see that creating a "classics" forum - likely to include mostly instructional clinics and detailed discussions on trackwork, scenery, DCC, operations, etc. - would be offering for free that which Kalmbach gains considerable revenue from through the sale of its magazines, instructional books, PDFs, and now DVDs? Kalmbach offer us these free forums. Breifly appearing "clinics" do them no harm...a permanent listing surely could. They would be absolute fools to cut deeply into their own bottom line in such a manner, so is there any wonder that there has been no comment from management's side? Wake up fellas!

CNJ831

With all due resepct, if that's the way they think they don't understand Internet culture. On the other hand print media businesses are usually slower to catch on to the information age paradigm.

[CNJ831]

Are posters here so truly naive that they do not see that creating a "classics" forum - likely to include mostly instructional clinics and detailed discussions on trackwork, scenery, DCC, operations, etc. - would be offering for free that which Kalmbach gains considerable revenue from through the sale of its magazines, instructional books, PDFs, and now DVDs? Kalmbach offer us these free forums. Briefly appearing "clinics" do them no harm, often dropping to the back pages in short order...a permanent listing surely could. They would be absolute fools to cut deeply into their own bottom line in such a manner, so is there any wonder that there has been no comment from management's side? Wake up fellas!

CNJ831

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Grubby

Great idea John

The reality of this forum is that there are so many levels of interest here that something of your calibre is largely wasted in this environment especially with the number of self-appointed guardians and moderators. It is a shame because your posts are one of the very few things on the forum that are actually in-depth enough to be of any real value to the modeller.

If only the blinkers could come off for a few minutes and a few more egos held in check, this forum would be a lot better place. Good manners and forum ettique prevent me from posting much of the time in response to the "champions" but the responses of a few forumers to this thread have left me not only shaking my head, but questioning why someone like you would bother with people like this.

It seems the consistent "polling" and chitchat threads are what people want, so let them have it. It is embarrassing IMO to have to bump quality threads on a continual basis whilst the same kinds of questions get asked everyday.

I look forward to visiting your site everyday to check for updates to your clinics.

A little hero worship going on here, it appears - as well as some slamming of anyone who has an opinion that differs from John's. By the way, Grubby, who is "John," anyway?

There are a lot of people on these forums who clearly are sure of themselves and know what they are doing. One has parlayed that into a video series about their layout (gee, who might I be talking about? [^]). Good for that person. I'm a subscriber to the video series.

But disagreeing with something they say doesn't make the person doing the disagreeing egotistical. It just means that they still think for themselves, and don't adopt anyone's opinion without question, regardless of how much they might respect the person.

I'm curious, Grubby, with such an obvious low opinion of most of the forum members, why are you here?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

I can see that this forum's probably not the best place for content that's less-than-transient.

The forum clinics were an experiment to see if meaty content on a forum like this would work.

I'm coming around to the conclusion that trying to do these forum clinics on here is like trying to do seminar on a busy street sidewalk. Too much din and traffic, and actually counterproductive. And we've asked for better forum alternatives to MR and nothing's come of it ... so I can see MR prefers the status quo.

So be it.

I'm moving to my own web site with the clinics, where I can control the content, presentation, etc. I'll be doing new and improved versions of theses clinics, with lots more photos here: http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains/forum/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=14

... starting with a new and improved version of the scenery clinic.

I for one hope you don't withdraw support for your clinics for two reasons.

1) I enjoy your insight into the various aspects of the hobby. I immediatley bookmark clinics so I can refer to them when I start a project. Just recently I rethought how I would handle some aspects of scenery because I reread one of your earlier posts. Our club is trying to regroup and start op sessions. This is a big step since the group have been circle running railfans for 15 years. I will be reareading your OPs forum sometime in the near future.

2) Things become clearer and you yourself are forced to restate and clarify your position in response to input from people like Randy, Harold and others. This makes what you have to say even more valuable.

The forum is fluid and people will post useless polls that drive your forums down and off the page. But there is always a crowd waiting on the street corner for when they come back around. IF that aspect of it bothers you, I'll bet a volunteer would watch your forum and bounce it back up every time it hit page 4.

[Grubby]

Great idea Joe

The reality of this forum is that there are so many levels of interest here that something of your calibre is largely wasted in this environment especially with the number of self-appointed guardians and moderators. It is a shame because your posts are one of the very few things on the forum that are actually in-depth enough to be of any real value to the modeller.

If only the blinkers could come off for a few minutes and a few more egos held in check, this forum would be a lot better place. Good manners and forum ettique prevent me from posting much of the time in response to the "champions" but the responses of a few forumers to this thread have left me not only shaking my head, but questioning why someone like you would bother with people like this.

It seems the consistent "polling" and chitchat threads are what people want, so let them have it. It is embarrassing IMO to have to bump quality threads on a continual basis whilst the same kinds of questions get asked everyday.

I look forward to visiting your site everyday to check for updates to your clinics.

[jfugate]

I can see that this forum's probably not the best place for content that's less-than-transient.

The forum clinics were an experiment to see if meaty content on a forum like this would work.

I'm coming around to the conclusion that trying to do these forum clinics on here is like trying to do seminar on a busy street sidewalk. Too much din and traffic, and actually counterproductive. And we've asked for better forum alternatives to MR and nothing's come of it ... so I can see MR prefers the status quo.

So be it.

I'm moving to my own web site with the clinics, where I can control the content, presentation, etc. I'll be doing new and improved versions of theses clinics, with lots more photos here: http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains/forum/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=14

... starting with a new and improved version of the scenery clinic.

[Anonymous]

MR has heard the plea before. It seems obvious to me they've chosen not to do it.

I very much enjoy in depth posts, like Joe's posts on scenery, operation, etc.

I also don't mind if they die out after a while - because frankly, a 15 page post is also pretty annoying. It's great when it's a couple pages, but by the time it's 15, you have to practically use the search function just to find what you're looking for within the post!

Let's not forget this is a forum - it's meant to be fluid. It's not a static thing. Things come and go.

How the heck would MR really decide what threads deserve the gold star, and which don't? Do you really want to see a poll for that? I sure don't.

Is Bergie going to have that added to his job description? (Web site administrator, "Import Thread Designator"...


To me, this forum is like a bunch of Post-it notes. Trying to use sticky's, "classic threads", etc. is like organizing little post-it notes all over your desk into stacks of post-it notes. That becomes a mess.

If what you really want is a notebook, use a notebook, not post-it notes.

Maybe a web equivalent to a notebook is if you really want something documented in a specific way, create a website for it, rather than trying to control a forum, which is more like a bunch of post-it notes.


Consider also that in selecting certain threads over others, many will percieve this as "favoring". I could see it now...

Here's a future thread topic:

"Howcome My great thread on scratchbuilding wasn't added to the classics list".

Response:

"Because your thread didn't cut the mustard...."

Initial Author's response:

"That's it, I'm now upset at Model Railroader..."

I seriously, seriously doubt Model Railroader will go for this. I think it would be a very poor PR move on thier part.

[Anonymous]

But not too many. How many, I haven't a clue.

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

Guess I'll be the first real nay-sayer.

Most of the clinics should probably be in the Layout Construction forum and not here, anyway. While things do slide down the list there, it happens a lot slower than on this forum. So I suggest the forums on DCC, Scenery, etc. go where they really belong anyway.

Creating another forum for Bergie & Co. to monitor and manage won't help much - people will still come in here and post the same oft-asked questions they already do. Why? Because this one is first on the list, and this one has the most action.

So I say "no" to a new forum - let's just put the topics in the existing forums where they belong anyway.

[#ditto], as I have consistently said. Clean up the Gen Disc forum, (I agree that Joe's clinics, astoundingly successful though they be, would be even better in their rightful place: Layouts and Layout Building).

BUT...it 'might' prove useful, in the long run, to break down the forum into one other thread: Polls. (heh, heh...[}:)]

Oh, IMHO, stars should disappear. They're useless.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Part of the problem is definition. I finally figured out what you are talking about as "classics". You are refrerring to subject you think are important, not topics about "classic" railroading (i..e. 1930-1960 as in the "Classic Trains" maggazine).

So what happens when you get your 250th 'classic" thread and now EVERY new thread is buried behind 250 old, but by somebody's choice "important" threads?

Dave H.

Cross that bridge when we come to it. If every solution had to solve the next 50 problems that came about because of it, you can forget progress.

[bjdukert]

QUOTE: Part of the problem is definition. I finally figured out what you are talking about as "classics". You are refrerring to subject you think are important, not topics about "classic" railroading (i..e. 1930-1960 as in the "Classic Trains" maggazine).

Joe I agree with Dave that the title could be misleading as I was thinking the same thing until I read your first post. I think you have a better title in that post by calling it FORUM CLINICS or something else. Just my [2c]

Duke

[dehusman]

Part of the problem is definition. I finally figured out what you are talking about as "classics". You are refrerring to subject you think are important, not topics about "classic" railroading (i..e. 1930-1960 as in the "Classic Trains" maggazine).

So what happens when you get your 250th 'classic" thread and now EVERY new thread is buried behind 250 old, but by somebody's choice "important" threads?

Dave H.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Javern

I feel some of the other model railroad sites have too many sub forums, Im ok with adding one or too more here but lets not have a seperate forum for too many topics

As long as the forum software has an active topics option and the forum is structured properly to make that function work like you expect, then the number of subforums isn't really a problem.

The problem with this forum is all the Kamlbach train-related publications are all one huge forum, so when you do active tiopics on here you get Trains, Classic Trains, Garden Railroads, Model Railroader ... *way* more stuff than you want.

If each publication was its own forum, then when in the MR forum, active topics would pull a list that looks just like the general discussion today. With that sort of structure, you could have as many subforums as you like, and you would have the best of both worlds.

The point is, there are ways. As it is now, it's bordering on out of control, IMO. The only people you will keep are the ones who like conducting polls or asking yet again, "So how many locos do you have?" The serious modelers will tend to go elsewhere ... and when was the last time we had some great answers from the Kalmbach staff on here? The din level is getting so high that it's just too hard to keep up.

[Anonymous]

Even a single sticky with links to the "classics" would be an improvement. There are a few (maybe 5, 10?) threads that really are classics, and often referred to. It wouldn't/shouldn't be that hard to figure out. I'm not talking about threads that are a discussion of a question, in general. but threads where someone has gone to the trouble to prepare a large amount of coherent information that is useful to many of us. Joe has done several, and there are a few others. I search out the DCC Clinic every week or two. I could bookmark it, but I do it from several computers, and really don't want to. I don't know exactly how to administer it, but a poll submitted by someone who thinks something is worthy (and I hate polls) might do the trick. Then put the link in the sticky. I don't think we want to stifle the normal discussions, but it would be nice to keep a record of the really good ones, for those here now, and those who come later. So there.

[Javern]

I feel some of the other model railroad sites have too many sub forums, Im ok with adding one or too more here but lets not have a seperate forum for too many topics

[jfugate]

The reality with the Layout Construction forum is there's nobody there about 3/4 of the time, so if you post some question there, you may not get an answer for days.

With the general discussion forum, even the most off-the-wall question usually gets some good responses within an hour or two.

Until you change that dynamic, you can ask people until you are blue in the face to go over to the Layout Construction forum, but it won't do any good.

At least with a classics forum, the posts in there would form what amounts to an FAQ, and I see lots of value in that for new folks who are full of questions. Right now, it's like a needle in a haystack and I am finding it's just too darn much work to keep digging it out again.

If I feel this way, I suspect others who might otherwise post really good stuff on here feel the same way. Why bother?

Who knows how many good topics that never get posted because of the constant chatter on the general discussion forum just making it too much work to keep up with such a thread?

[novicerr]

I will vote yes on it, and maybe suggest the topic on the 70th anniversory boxcar can now be dropped, allowing more space.

[dehusman]

If you want to discuss something "classic" discuss it. Nothing's stopping you. You don't need another forum.

Creating a new category for every subject so your topic du jour won't get "lost" is an administrative nightmare.

If you want to limit the traffic, how about a forum for useless and off topic subjects. or a forum for just polls. Either of those would cut the malarky by 25-30%.

Dave H.

[Seamonster]

QUOTE: Create a sub-forum that does not allow us mere mortals to create new topics. We can post replies, but we can't start anything new. That keeps out the "my favorite beer" topics.

Who decides? This community. Once someone feels a given topic has reached classic status, they can nominate it to be moved to the classics sub-forum by the moderator. If there is a general concensus among the clientele on here that the topic is a classic, then it gets moved.

That's how I see it working.

That sounds like a workable idea. I'm all for it. It should have a catchy title that would encourage people with questions on those types of subjects to go there first.

QUOTE: Most of the clinics should probably be in the Layout Construction forum and not here, anyway. While things do slide down the list there, it happens a lot slower than on this forum. So I suggest the forums on DCC, Scenery, etc. go where they really belong anyway.

I agree. I often see topics here that really should be in the Construction forum and I've seen the same question posted in both forums. I suspect that the same people with answers haunt both forums, so that's wasting space. Nevertheless, all the generous people on these forums answer queries no matter where they're posted.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by Fergmiester

Do I have motion on the Floor?

Lest we forget, this is not a democracy.....all we can do is plead and beg!

[:)]

Not true. We could try bribery.

Andre

[jxtrrx]

I agree with Mark, Chip and Fergie. What's classic to me may not be to you. I can see thread after thread on whether (fill in the blank) deserves classic status. Leave it be.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Fergmiester

Do I have motion on the Floor?

Lest we forget, this is not a democracy.....all we can do is plead and beg!

[:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Create a sub-forum that does not allow us mere mortals to create new topics. We can post replies, but we can't start anything new. That keeps out the "my favorite beer" topics.

Who decides? This community. Once someone feels a given topic has reached classic status, they can nominate it to be moved to the classics sub-forum by the moderator. If there is a general concensus among the clientele on here that the topic is a classic, then it get's moved.

That's how I see it working.

Once again, Joe raises an interesting point. IF it could work that way, it'd be perfect.