REQUEST! Lobby for a classic topics section in this forum?

[Grubby]

Great idea Joe

The reality of this forum is that there are so many levels of interest here that something of your calibre is largely wasted in this environment especially with the number of self-appointed guardians and moderators. It is a shame because your posts are one of the very few things on the forum that are actually in-depth enough to be of any real value to the modeller.

If only the blinkers could come off for a few minutes and a few more egos held in check, this forum would be a lot better place. Good manners and forum ettique prevent me from posting much of the time in response to the "champions" but the responses of a few forumers to this thread have left me not only shaking my head, but questioning why someone like you would bother with people like this.

It seems the consistent "polling" and chitchat threads are what people want, so let them have it. It is embarrassing IMO to have to bump quality threads on a continual basis whilst the same kinds of questions get asked everyday.

I look forward to visiting your site everyday to check for updates to your clinics.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

I can see that this forum's probably not the best place for content that's less-than-transient.

The forum clinics were an experiment to see if meaty content on a forum like this would work.

I'm coming around to the conclusion that trying to do these forum clinics on here is like trying to do seminar on a busy street sidewalk. Too much din and traffic, and actually counterproductive. And we've asked for better forum alternatives to MR and nothing's come of it ... so I can see MR prefers the status quo.

So be it.

I'm moving to my own web site with the clinics, where I can control the content, presentation, etc. I'll be doing new and improved versions of theses clinics, with lots more photos here: http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains/forum/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=14

... starting with a new and improved version of the scenery clinic.

I for one hope you don't withdraw support for your clinics for two reasons.

1) I enjoy your insight into the various aspects of the hobby. I immediatley bookmark clinics so I can refer to them when I start a project. Just recently I rethought how I would handle some aspects of scenery because I reread one of your earlier posts. Our club is trying to regroup and start op sessions. This is a big step since the group have been circle running railfans for 15 years. I will be reareading your OPs forum sometime in the near future.

2) Things become clearer and you yourself are forced to restate and clarify your position in response to input from people like Randy, Harold and others. This makes what you have to say even more valuable.

The forum is fluid and people will post useless polls that drive your forums down and off the page. But there is always a crowd waiting on the street corner for when they come back around. IF that aspect of it bothers you, I'll bet a volunteer would watch your forum and bounce it back up every time it hit page 4.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Grubby

Great idea John

The reality of this forum is that there are so many levels of interest here that something of your calibre is largely wasted in this environment especially with the number of self-appointed guardians and moderators. It is a shame because your posts are one of the very few things on the forum that are actually in-depth enough to be of any real value to the modeller.

If only the blinkers could come off for a few minutes and a few more egos held in check, this forum would be a lot better place. Good manners and forum ettique prevent me from posting much of the time in response to the "champions" but the responses of a few forumers to this thread have left me not only shaking my head, but questioning why someone like you would bother with people like this.

It seems the consistent "polling" and chitchat threads are what people want, so let them have it. It is embarrassing IMO to have to bump quality threads on a continual basis whilst the same kinds of questions get asked everyday.

I look forward to visiting your site everyday to check for updates to your clinics.

A little hero worship going on here, it appears - as well as some slamming of anyone who has an opinion that differs from John's. By the way, Grubby, who is "John," anyway?

There are a lot of people on these forums who clearly are sure of themselves and know what they are doing. One has parlayed that into a video series about their layout (gee, who might I be talking about? [^]). Good for that person. I'm a subscriber to the video series.

But disagreeing with something they say doesn't make the person doing the disagreeing egotistical. It just means that they still think for themselves, and don't adopt anyone's opinion without question, regardless of how much they might respect the person.

I'm curious, Grubby, with such an obvious low opinion of most of the forum members, why are you here?

[CNJ831]

Are posters here so truly naive that they do not see that creating a "classics" forum - likely to include mostly instructional clinics and detailed discussions on trackwork, scenery, DCC, operations, etc. - would be offering for free that which Kalmbach gains considerable revenue from through the sale of its magazines, instructional books, PDFs, and now DVDs? Kalmbach offer us these free forums. Briefly appearing "clinics" do them no harm, often dropping to the back pages in short order...a permanent listing surely could. They would be absolute fools to cut deeply into their own bottom line in such a manner, so is there any wonder that there has been no comment from management's side? Wake up fellas!

CNJ831

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Are posters here so truly naive that they do not see that creating a "classics" forum - likely to include mostly instructional clinics and detailed discussions on trackwork, scenery, DCC, operations, etc. - would be offering for free that which Kalmbach gains considerable revenue from through the sale of its magazines, instructional books, PDFs, and now DVDs? Kalmbach offer us these free forums. Breifly appearing "clinics" do them no harm...a permanent listing surely could. They would be absolute fools to cut deeply into their own bottom line in such a manner, so is there any wonder that there has been no comment from management's side? Wake up fellas!

CNJ831

With all due resepct, if that's the way they think they don't understand Internet culture. On the other hand print media businesses are usually slower to catch on to the information age paradigm.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Are posters here so truly naive that they do not see that creating a "classics" forum - likely to include mostly instructional clinics and detailed discussions on trackwork, scenery, DCC, operations, etc. - would be offering for free that which Kalmbach gains considerable revenue from through the sale of its magazines, instructional books, PDFs, and now DVDs? Kalmbach offer us these free forums. Breifly appearing "clinics" do them no harm...a permanent listing surely could. They would be absolute fools to cut deeply into their own bottom line in such a manner, so is there any wonder that there has been no comment from management's side? Wake up fellas!

CNJ831

With all due resepct, if that's the way they think they don't understand Internet culture. On the other hand print media businesses are usually slower to catch on to the information age paradigm.

Well, Chip, while I don't have any idea of your occupation, I have to ask if you would offer a space at the front door of your business for someone to set up shop and give away their version of the identical products you sell to make a living and feed your family?

CNJ831

[SpaceMouse]

I'm a vitamin store guy. But in a previous incarnation I was an academic studying the sociology and implications of the information age on business and literacy. In 1993 I put my money where my mouth was and opened a mail order vitamin business. In 1996 we hit the Internet at a point where we had to write our own shopping cart because none were commercially available. I designed a just-in-time distribution system that was unique at the time but is now an cross industry standard practice. During the Internet boom of the late 1990's our company was making a profit while others were playing the operate-at-a-loss-for market-share-IPO game and we sold out in 2000 just before the crash.

If I were Klambach I would encourage these forums and advertise them--and in case you didn't notice the last Model Railroader email update mentioned one of Joe's clinics as an enticement to visit the forum.

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Are posters here so truly naive that they do not see that creating a "classics" forum - likely to include mostly instructional clinics and detailed discussions on trackwork, scenery, DCC, operations, etc. - would be offering for free that which Kalmbach gains considerable revenue from through the sale of its magazines, instructional books, PDFs, and now DVDs? Kalmbach offer us these free forums. Breifly appearing "clinics" do them no harm...a permanent listing surely could. They would be absolute fools to cut deeply into their own bottom line in such a manner, so is there any wonder that there has been no comment from management's side? Wake up fellas!

CNJ831

With all due resepct, if that's the way they think they don't understand Internet culture. On the other hand print media businesses are usually slower to catch on to the information age paradigm.

Well, Chip, while I don't have any idea of your occupation, I have to ask if you would offer a space at the front door of your business for someone to set up shop and give away their version of the identical products you sell to make a living and feed your family?

CNJ831

May I suggest you all go up tp the top of this page and click on the link called Model Railroader or go to this link http://www.trains.com/maghomepage/maghomepage.asp?idMagazine=3
on the right you'lll see a set of topics under a heading called Modeling. Each one of those leads to a set of article links for that topic. These are all free and include Scenery, Layout Planning, ABC's of Model Railroading etc. There are dozens of articles.

Far from fighting this idea MR has already embraced it.

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

The heat has gotten some what intense on this, but to offer a possible suggestion to address the "main problem" might be a summary of useful topics like "clinics" and other valuable "information" as a sticky topic in what ever existing forum catagory is appropriate. I believe Aggro Jones had such a topic at one time with links to the topics of general interest and other consolidated useful information. As new topics are created they could be added to the topic post with a general discription, and a link to the specific subject topic. This might be a useful way to "catalog" classic posts and an easier way to "bump" a group of useful posts to the top of the forum. I have to admire the dedication to the hobby that has produced many of the "classic topics" being addressed here, and can understand the desire to have some of the cost of production in time and product by those who have invested in providing useful information both in clinic format and in topics that many of those present here have added to the enjoyment and education in the "Hobby" of Model Railroading.
Regards to those who I concider friends and mentors here and elsewhere in the hobby.
Will

[jfugate]

I don't have any intention of abandoning this forum with regards to answering questions and that sort of thing. I'm just questioning the value of the FORUM CLINICS since the effort I put into them is based on the notion they will be something that will hang around somehow.

But regardless of what happens here, I'll make accommodation for them via my web site (link in my signature), and keep updating, refining and improving them there.

Frankly, I think this forum could use some reorganization into a few more sections, but I don't think any of us wants the forum dividing to "go to seed" and end up at the opposite extreme of a forum with so many sections you don't know where to begin posting or reading.

I feel those who disagree have valid points, but I was hoping there might be some middle ground somewhere?

[oleirish]

QUOTE: Originally posted by novicerr

I will vote yes on it, and maybe suggest the topic on the 70th anniversory boxcar can now be dropped, allowing more space.

[:)]I think you have the right idea,do away W/70th anniversory and drop it in that slot,that would be great my.002 cents worth
JIM

[cuyama]

As someone who has recently been presenting some ideas in the context of a forum clinic, I know how frustrating it is for the time spent answering a question to be "wasted" when the topic is quickly buried by "my halloween costume" threads.

The forum is an ephemeral (and fickle) medium. In the future, I'll probably just try to do something on my website or a blog and refer to it here.

The idea of a permanent place for clinics of this type is intriguing, but the big question is "Who would edit and choose?" The "thread of useful threads" that was tried on this forum (and others have referred to) soon collapsed under it own weight. Some of the "useful" threads being suggested seemed much better than others. To me, that is. And that's my point.

So who would choose and what would the criteria be?

Should people like Joe and me who have model railroad-related side jobs be excluded? Otherwise, many suppliers will be creating and submitting "clinics" that are thinly-disguised ads.

On the other hand, because Joe and I are just generally helpful individuals and all-around great guys and some poster with 8000 posts and 6 cerulean stars thinks we're cool, should whatever we write be included? Or because we've both been authors in Kalmbach publications, should we get a free pass to make anything we write a "sticky"?

I'm not much for conspiracy theories, so I think our hosts at Kalmbach simply recognize that trying to choose between posts to make something "sticky" is a losing proposition. They'll only make people mad at what's been included or excluded. It seems unlikely that Kalmbach would willing to spend a lot of editor's time on the project (not only to pick the winners but to spend hours molifying the losers).

On "the other leading brand" forum, a decision has been made that some threads will be given a place of prominence. Selecting Joe Fugate's scenery clinic as the first one is an easy choice, of course. But what about the next one? Or the fourth one? Or the twenty-thrid one? As and when that forum gets more populous, the same challenges will be seen as over here. Who chooses -- and how do they justify the choice?

Well, I've now wasted most of my daily forum time allotment on replying to this thread. I hope someone will read it before it's followed by twenty-eight well-intentioned "Joe F. is a genius!" threads. Hey, he's a friend, I know he's terrific. I had to follow him in a magazine editor's job -- how big were those shoes to fill? But it's not the obviously useful threads by thoughtful people that would be a problem in this "sticky nirvana". It's the non-deserving threads and the challenge of choosing between them and justifying those choices.

regards,

Byron

[jfugate]

As usual, Byron, great words of wisdom. Thanks for taking the time to write up your thoughts.

Having your own web site and putting most of the content you think would be of permanent value there probably makes the most sense. That's why I capitulated rather quickly after seeing the nay-sayer posts on this thread.

As long as there's a permanent place on the web to point people at for the info, doesn't much matter where it ends up on this forum, does it?

[Attaboy]

I don't see the problem, I already have an easily accessible list of important forum threads, they're called bookmarks. I have general folder for all my train stuff and a sub folder in it for forum threads that contain useful information. There is not problem with "who decides what qualifies" because I do. And one click takes me right to the thread. If it's a large form thread like the Coffee Shop here, I can even bookmark the specific page. So what's the problem here people?

[SpaceMouse]

I'm not a groupie (I hope) and I don't have 6 stars, but I feel that there does need to be a place for these forums, if for no other reason than you guys are feeling discouraged by the venue.

That is not to say that the Halloween Costume tread doesn't have a place. This place is would not be as successful if there wasn't as social aspect to it.

I would support a separate forum. But I don't have a problem with discrimination of topics. I think it should be a case by case petition of Bergie to get accepted. But I would also predict this. A lot fewer people would see them in a separate forum. Which in turn means you'll get less response--and less productive response, than you would in the general forum.

Unless you get in on the clinics at the beginning, reading the clinics ac be very daunting. How many people will read Joe's DCC clinic from start to finish now that it is up to, what, 16 pages. So while I support your desire to have a separate forum, I believe there will be trade offs.

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Are posters here so truly naive ? ...
CNJ831

I don't consider myself naive. I just like things the way they are...minus the wretched polls.

It would be helpful if our host's search feature were considerably more adept at retrieving requested topics...an improvement there might make all the difference for those who are not particularly keen on wading through all the daily fluff. I also wonder how many surfers get impatient and leave before they get a good appreciation for the strengths of this forum because of that weakness...they don't get meaningful results from their subject searches.

But, and I speak only for myself, I come here to enjoy what I enjoy, be that fluff, polls ([%-)], clinics, or reports from earnest members about their experiences. If I had to jump between four other pages to get a quarter of the posts on each, it would detract from the flavour implied by the word "general".

Joe posts his clinics here because the greater exposure is here. He would get less exposure in the Layouts forum due to the restricted range of viewers there. I don't find fault; he got a warm and enthusiastic response, and so he should...he has earned his stripes. I would feel badly if he withdrew is well-intentioned efforts here, but he does have a show to run, and must find the audience that will keep him solvent. I would do the same.

So, CNJ, I am not naive, just as YOU are not naive. We merely have different things that appeal to us.

-Respectfully...

[selector]

By the way, Joe, there is always middle ground. Throw my name in for supporting the establishment of a forum dealing with How-to's...or Clinics. [:)]

[Anonymous]

Joe, respectfully, I think I've been called a "nay-sayer" due to my post above, but I do enjoy your material.

I also recommended you put your material on your website over on the scenery thread a few days ago. (Apparently, the words out of one persons mouth makes them a nay-sayer - the same words out of another's are "words of wisdom"). [:D] This is said tongue-in-cheek, in a good humored way - I hope it reads properly - humor/sarcasm are hard to judge in written form...


Now that it's on your website, I actually re-visted your scenery material, and it was much easier to view without all the posts in between! I got more out of it this time!

Here's one person that will actually view the material now, instead of scrolling past the "Forum Clinic" threads along with the "coffee shop" because the threads are so long I just won't bother.

I'll also point people to your website to check them out now.

Thanks for the info, but also thanks for respecting the fact that this is MR's forum. If it's setup this way, it's obviously how they want it. I respect them for that.

(This is not directed specifically at Joe...)
MR is probably getting annoyed by the pleas for change, possibly making them question whether they should keep this forum here or not. Terry posted a couple weeks about the thin ice the forum is already on. Slamming MR on the way they run their forum probably won't help any.

Again, Joe, keep up the good work, and I'll be checking out your site for the info... I'm glad we can give this a rest...

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate


Having your own web site and putting most of the content you think would be of permanent value there probably makes the most sense. That's why I capitulated rather quickly after seeing the nay-sayer posts on this thread.

Being the first of the nay-sayers, I'll just add that I'm not a hard case on it. I think the current arrangement, inconvenient as it may be at times, is the best one - the clinics get maximum exposure in the General Discussion forum. But if Kalmbach decides to go with your request, Joe, good for them and you. I'll still be floating around the forum just as I am now (darn! still can't get rid of me![:p]).

And right now, I know when something has been added to the clinics because they pop up on the first few pages again. I don't have to go look for them - they sort of come to me!

Anyway, my nay-saying was just my own opinion, not an indignant

"NO!"

[:o)]

[jxtrrx]

Hey Joe. Another "nay-sayer" here. Like some of the others, please know that my comments in NO way were a criticism of your material. You are a huge asset to our group, and I will click on a topic I don't even care about if I see you've posted to it. Plus, I've read and enjoyed all three of your clinics more than once... and will go through them all again, I'm sure. I just don't think creating a new "Classics" area would work in the long term (for all the reasons now beaten to death in this thread).

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan


Now that it's on your website, I actually re-visted your scenery material, and it was much easier to view without all the posts in between! I got more out of it this time!

Here's one person that will actually view the material now, instead of scrolling past the "Forum Clinic" threads along with the "coffee shop" because the threads are so long I just won't bother.

I have to agree the "new-and-improved" scenery clinic over here: http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=157

... is now mostly meat and very little chaff. Many of the posts between topics were, "good stuff, Joe, looking forward to more" sort of attaboys, and while reassuring, just added bulk to the thread.

The new and improved scenery clinic is now lean and mean, plus has a lot more photos illustrating the points.

But I don't want to discourage questions and comments ... those can be most helpful and enlightening as well. However, you don't really need to post any "attaboy" comments in the thread ... you can send those to me directly if you feel you must comment along that line.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan


Now that it's on your website, I actually re-visted your scenery material, and it was much easier to view without all the posts in between! I got more out of it this time!

Here's one person that will actually view the material now, instead of scrolling past the "Forum Clinic" threads along with the "coffee shop" because the threads are so long I just won't bother.

I have to agree the "new-and-improved" scenery clinic over here: http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=157

... is now mostly meat and very little chaff. Many of the posts between topics were, "good stuff, Joe, looking forward to more" sort of attaboys, and while reassuring, just added bulk to the thread.

The new and improved scenery clinic is now lean and mean, plus has a lot more photos illustrating the points.

But I don't want to discourage questions and comments ... those can be most helpful and enlightening as well. However, you don't really need to post any "attaboy" comments in the thread ... you can send those to me directly if you feel you must comment along that line.

Often "attaboys" here are more meant to bump the thread rather than to pat your back, Joe. Still a compliment, but not as groupyish.

[ereimer]

i agree , it would be great to be able to find some of the more useful topics without looking through a ton of old threads , or trying to get the search to co-operate (never seems to work for me anyway hehe)

[Grubby]

QUOTE: I'm curious, Grubby, with such an obvious low opinion of most of the forum members, why are you here?

Because for every 10 try-hard amateur moderators and every 10 random pollsters and one Mark B, there are people with genuine passion and ideas that I can learn from. Thats why I can here in the first place, not to protect MR's interests (they can look after themselves), not to hero worship anyone , not to engage in forum warfare but to sit back and learn. You seem to have another agenda, thats fine, I'll accomodate you if necessary.

Whilst I don't feel the continual need to boost my post count by polling the forum on whether they prefer boxers or briefs whilst operating, I read and learn, and comment or question when I need to. I am sorry if a desire to learn confuses you Mark, perhaps you may care to review the trite and smug comments you post along the way and recognise that you are an annoying little twerp.

GFY.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse
Often "attaboys" here are more meant to bump the thread rather than to pat your back, Joe. Still a compliment, but not as groupyish.

Good point, Chip.

Attaboy. [swg]

[jwr_1986]

I'll back the classics forum but I'd like to see some more divisions other than the four that we have now. Not alot like I have seen on other forums but just a few more would be nice.

Jesse

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Grubby

GFY.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Grubby

GFY.

Grubby, I hope gfy is your initials or something.

If it means what I think it means, It's time to flag the moderators to come clean house.

There are kids here, and we don't need that.

[Grubby]

If it is what you think it is, and it is somehow wrong, why would you quote it?

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Grubby

QUOTE: I'm curious, Grubby, with such an obvious low opinion of most of the forum members, why are you here?

Because for every 10 try-hard amateur moderators and every 10 random pollsters and one Mark B, there are people with genuine passion and ideas that I can learn from. Thats why I can here in the first place, not to protect MR's interests (they can look after themselves), not to hero worship anyone , not to engage in forum warfare but to sit back and learn. You seem to have another agenda, thats fine, I'll accomodate you if necessary.

Whilst I don't feel the continual need to boost my post count by polling the forum on whether they prefer boxers or briefs whilst operating, I read and learn, and comment or question when I need to. I am sorry if a desire to learn confuses you Mark, perhaps you may care to review the trite and smug comments you post along the way and recognise that you are an annoying little twerp.

GFY.

Grubby -

It appears that, just as you consider most of us to be beneath you, you consider the rules of this board to be beneath you as well.Your personal attack and name calling, as well as your implied obscenities, are clear violations of those rules. Consider yourself complained about to the moderator.