Dangers of Second Hand Smoke and Noise at Shows and Clubs?

[Isambard]

At a recent trains show the O gauge layout next door to our layout featured several steam and diesel locomotives putting out generous volumes of smoke and noise.

Despite the room being large and air conditioned, the air in the room stank of smoke. The level of noise from the locos combined with that of the crowds made normal level of conversation between our operators difficult such that we're planning to go to headphones next showtime.

What is this stuff that's used in those smoke generators and has it been analysed for toxicity? Surely the anti-smoking lobby or the California government must have had a look at it? [:)].

Do any clubs or shows have regulations or standards for use of smoke and/or sound?

(Thinks to himself--the responses to this thread should generate a lot of sound and warmth, if not smoke)[:D]

[Anonymous]

Hey according to George there is no global warming, second hand smoke, or noise polution; however, my guess would be that the "oil" based smoke from those O Gauge locos is not good for you, but unless you are going to be exposed constantly to it for half a millenium or longer, you probably will not be adversely affected.
I have "Flamed"!!
Will

[Anonymous]

Who want's to live forever?

[Anonymous]

We've had a similar problem in our club, as the smoke from the Lionel and MTh engines irritates those with allergies. It causes throat irriitation in one fellow and another who wears contact lenses says it irritates his eyes. It's bad enough to visit a show for a while, but for those who have displays or sales tables at a train show, they are exposed to this smoke the whole day. Our locations do not have air conditioning or other mechanical ways to circulate the air. The only circulation is from the main doors opening and closing.

Our main club proponent of the smoke is very touchy about the subject, feels its his right to demonstrate the "latest technology" - steam and diesel engines with fans that spew out smoke continuously. He's threatened to leave his stuff home if he cannot operate the smoke units. Way overboard.

One of our members did some online research and came up with this:

"Second-hand smoke

Is this toy train pseudo-smoke harmful to your health?

Well, a jar of pure meta-terphenyl is labeled an “irritant,” meaning that chronic exposure can irritate the eyes, skin, and mucous membranes. Some chemical substances in smoke fluid can also be moderate eye irritants and slight irritants to mucous membranes.

Common sense suggests that hobbyists provide themselves with at least some ventilation in their train rooms and that they find some fresh air if they experience headaches, sore throats, eye irritation, or itching skin after standing in a cloud of toy train “smoke.”

Our next show is in November, and we have yet to make a decision - Lionel & MTH trains with smoke or none at all.

No one has even brought up the loudness of the electronic bells, whistles and horns yet! I personally inquired if these sounds can be turned down, and found out they indeed can. I can just imagine what the reply would be if we also asked for them to be softened.

Bob Boudreau

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

Who want's to live forever?

You know I hear that a lot in the health business. It's not a matter of dying sooner, it's a matter of being alive longer and being really sick the whole time.

[Anonymous]

I assume that meta-terphenyl is the active ingredient in the smoke? I don't know, but here is a link to a page about it in the "Pocket guide to Chemcical Hazards" from the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0592.html

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

Who want's to live forever?

You know I hear that a lot in the health business. It's not a matter of dying sooner, it's a matter of being alive longer and being really sick the whole time.

Or it is a matter of perspective. 4 or 5 hours exposure one or two times a year is not something worth worrying about. If we were talking about a restaurant wait person who is exposed 8+ hours a day 5+ days a week, week in week out, that could be a problem.

Life is to short to worry about an old age that none of us are guaranteed. I would not let the possibility that I could be exposed to a few parts per million of a carcinogen stop me from spending the day at a train show or touring a museum with real trains (and of course nasty chemicals).

Just my opinion. I don't mean to disparage the health industry. Yosarean worried to much.

[Isambard]

[
Or it is a matter of perspective. 4 or 5 hours exposure one or two times a year is not something worth worrying about. If we were talking about a restaurant wait person who is exposed 8+ hours a day 5+ days a week, week in week out, that could be a problem.

Life is to short to worry about an old age that none of us are guaranteed. I would not let the possibility that I could be exposed to a few parts per million of a carcinogen stop me from spending the day at a train show or touring a museum with real trains (and of course nasty chemicals).

Just my opinion. I don't mean to disparage the health industry. Yosarean worried to much.

[Tracklayer]

I have a friend that loves to see his HO engines smoke, and will sometimes have his train room so smoke filled that I can hardly stand to stay in there for more than a few minutes, but then, I have asthma and allergies to any kind of smoke really bad. Maybe if it were better vented it wouldn't be so bad.

Tracklayer

[JohnT14808]

I hadn't really thought about it that much. None of the members at our club use smoke units....I'm not even certain that any of the members have "smokin' " locos!! Sound, now...that's another story. The DCC sound units are going full bore most of the time. Sometimes it gets so loud you can't hear yourself think. But most members keep the levels down to the minimum. It is bad only when the younger members have the throttles...then it's like dueling horns and slashing whistles.

[Anonymous]

The health hazard most guys face at a train show is themself, not the small amount of smoke. I see many people who seriously need to see a doctor and stop smoking, loose weight, exercise, eat better and in some cases get a shower. I see too many obituaries in Train Magazines of young guys and I don't think train show smoke is the leading cause.

As for global warming, I love the people who say it is real and 'somebody' better do 'something' about it, while they sit in air conditioned comfort using an electrically powered computer, on a train board about electrically powered models of diesel powered real engines?![banghead]

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard
Do any clubs or shows have regulations or standards for use of smoke and/or sound?

Due to the large number of sound equipped locomotives showing up at the club, we just implemented a sound standard. At a distance of 4 ft. (normal operational/viewing distance) the locomotive engine sounds are limited to a certain db level. I don't remember what the number is. As I recall it ends up being a main volume setting of about 40 on a QSI sound unit.

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm
Who want's to live forever?

I'm not so worried about the quantity of life I have; but the quality.

I have been working in a nursing home for the last 15+ years. I have seen the suffering patients endure when they have lost any quality of life. I, for one, do not want to live to age 95 if I have to be a vegetable. If I am lucky, I will die quickly and painlessly, without a long, lingering death.

My mother (a retired registered nurse) has often said there are worse things than death. And she is right. Personally, I don't fear death. Its the transition part that I am concerned about.

[Pruitt]

Ooooo! A "Chicken Little" thread!

I have what my doctor calls "reactive airways," stemming from asthma as a kid and growing up with a parent who was a smoker. It's bad enough that I wear a respirator when mowing the lawn, to avoid inhaling the dust. Things that don't bother most people at all make my bronchial passages cringe! A lot of perfumes do that, for example.

I've attended train shows with smoking locos (most of them were even supposed to be smoking!), and my lungs have protested on occasion. I just move ten feet or so back from the table and the level of smoke decreases to a tolerable level for me. Wandering through the buildings all day hasn't posed a problem for me.

Regarding the noise - if it's too much, get a set of those noise-cancelling headphones. If the noise level isn't painful, short-term exposure isn't damaging. The noise level in the car you probably took to the show, if you traveled at highway speeds at all, and unless it's a Caddy or other luxury-type vehicle, is probably a lot higher than what you ran into at the show.

[jrbernier]

Health issues aside, I have been to at least one large train show where a modular club with smoking engines and sound(including moo'ing cattle cars) has been told to turn it off. A modular club 'down wind' found that their trains had a soft 'film' on them the next day.
At our local club we might have set some 'noise' standards as when there are 6 or so QSI engines running, it is hard to hold a conversation. I have turned down the volume to about 50% of the default at home. I have found that the sound is best when you just hear it - sort of like outdoor night sounds.
On the 'plus' side, I have found that switching with a sound equipped engines(P2K GP9) is really nice. Having to crank up the throttle to pull a 20 car train out of a yard track seems so real as the engine starts to really work(just like the prototype). The intesity of the sound really matches the the power applied - nice!

Jim Bernier

Jim Bernier

[Anonymous]

One thing about sound equipped models - many don't take into consideration that if you were watching a prototype engine from a few hundred feet away, the sound wouldn't be all that loud. That's the way we often view operating models, from a scale hundred feet or more away. So the sound should really be to scale too - not too loud to be distracting, but loud enough so you are aware of it.

I've been in large school gyms with train shows and if you can hear the large scale whistles and bells very clearly at the opposite end of the gym - some 100 feet away, then in my opinion the sound is too loud!

Bob Boudreau

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tracklayer

I have a friend that loves to see his HO engines smoke, and will sometimes have his train room so smoke filled that I can hardly stand to stay in there for more than a few minutes, but then, I have asthma and allergies to any kind of smoke really bad. Maybe if it were better vented it wouldn't be so bad.

Tracklayer

One thing for promoters of the shows, as well as train clubs to consider is people with respiratory problems, allergies, etc, that might be adversely affected by the model smoke. I believe most smoke fluids are a form of mineral oil which will trigger adverse reactions in people with these problems. They may be missing out on visitors, and the attendant revenue from them, because of this.

The noise question is a whole other story.

[hoscalelarry]

One thing for promoters of the shows, as well as train clubs to consider is people with respiratory problems, allergies, etc, that might be adversely affected by the model smoke. I believe most smoke fluids are a form of mineral oil which will trigger adverse reactions in people with these problems. They may be missing out on visitors, and the attendant revenue from them, because of this.

The noise question is a whole other story.