Dangers of Second Hand Smoke and Noise at Shows and Clubs?

[BRAKIE]

As far as noise I would rather listen to on board sound then a video tape or DVD blaring away.[xx(] As far as choo-choo smoke no problem even though it stinks and I would prefer that over tobacco smoke.[xx(]
We have a no smoke rule at the club..However,since the majority of the membership smokes we are not a smoke free club.We do ask that one smokes in the crew/meeting room and not the layout room.

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ebriley

You know, guys, there's always a problem. I am extremely sensitve to glutin-the stuff that's in wheat, rye, barley, oats and a few other grains. If I eat anything with glutin in it (like Wonder Bread, etc) I have some intestinal problems the next day, sometimes severe problems. But you go on an NMRA layout tour that includes a box lunch and they hand me a sandwich made with commercial bread (read that -lot's of glutin) and commercial balona or salami (which often use glutin as flavor enhancers and don't say so on the lable)and I have to punt or remain very hungry. I'm probably the only guy on the tour with this problem and so I cannot resonable expect them to change the menu for me so I always bring something I can eat instead of the box lunch. If the smoke bothers you-move away from the source.

The fact that you can't eat the lunch in no way inhibits you from going on the tour. Since most trains shows take place in confined areas movng away as you suggest may mean leaving the train show - hardly the same thing.

While I haven't personally encountered a smoke problem, I have been to a few shows where the noise levels from someone's display have prevented me from looking at some dealers tables. My "favorite" was some guy selling replica crossing guards complete with sound that he had cranked up so loud that you could hear it throughout the hall and it was unbearable in about half the space. I'm sure his neighbors lost sales. Must have been a lot of complaints, because at the next show he was real quiet.
Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

With the advent of smoke units being offered in some recent BLI locomotives, our club had to add a rule & regulation that NO smoke units would be allowed to be in operation in the club, and that includes any that members were thinking of installing in buildings. It's cute but white smoke was the exception from steam locos. The main thing is the smoke STINKS and it leaves a film over everything, including the track---we certainly don't need to add to the cause of dirty track!
Dave
South Shore Model Railway Club (MA)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ebriley

You know, guys, there's always a problem. I am extremely sensitve to glutin-the stuff that's in wheat, rye, barley, oats and a few other grains. If I eat anything with glutin in it (like Wonder Bread, etc) I have some intestinal problems the next day, sometimes severe problems. But you go on an NMRA layout tour that includes a box lunch and they hand me a sandwich made with commercial bread (read that -lot's of glutin) and commercial balona or salami (which often use glutin as flavor enhancers and don't say so on the lable)and I have to punt or remain very hungry. I'm probably the only guy on the tour with this problem and so I cannot resonable expect them to change the menu for me so I always bring something I can eat instead of the box lunch. If the smoke bothers you-move away from the source.

Sorry to hear that, I was going to invite you over to see my empire but I have to warn you, I have a Gluten plant I am modleing [:)], I worked at one in my younger days and saw all the modeling possibilities.

Sorry had to reply to that one, not many people even know of Gluten. Again sorry to hear that. They do now make a lot of Gluten-Free products.

[Anonymous]

You know, guys, there's always a problem. I am extremely sensitve to glutin-the stuff that's in wheat, rye, barley, oats and a few other grains. If I eat anything with glutin in it (like Wonder Bread, etc) I have some intestinal problems the next day, sometimes severe problems. But you go on an NMRA layout tour that includes a box lunch and they hand me a sandwich made with commercial bread (read that -lot's of glutin) and commercial balona or salami (which often use glutin as flavor enhancers and don't say so on the lable)and I have to punt or remain very hungry. I'm probably the only guy on the tour with this problem and so I cannot resonable expect them to change the menu for me so I always bring something I can eat instead of the box lunch. If the smoke bothers you-move away from the source.

[Anonymous]

The older Lionel equipment was never a problem with smoke or sound, just little puffs of wispy smoke. The newer electronic Lionel and MTH models have as I mentioned, reservoirs for the smoke fluid and electric fans that blow it out in large quantities in both stream and diesel models.

They also have electronic/digital sound systems that include the diesel/steam engine sounds, bell, horns.whistles, conductor sounds and more. With fairly large speakers in the tenders and large diesel bodies, they can emit a fairly loud sound. If a bell is ringing in one of the models, you can cleary and distinctly hear it all through the train show venue, just as you would if it were a prototype bell.

To me the sounds are merely an irritation and I can live with them OK as long as I'm not displaying right next to them. The sounds can be turned down (I checked with Lionel) but the owners don't seem to want to. It's the smoke that affects people's ability to breathe that concerns me. The smoke can be turned down too, but again the owners see such a suggestion as an infringement of their rights to play with their toys.

I think I have photos of some of the modern stuff smoking, I'll try and see if I can find them and post them here.

Bob Boudreau

[Anonymous]

I have only seen the older Lionel steam engines putting out smoke at a train show, and even then it was pretty conservative on it's output. Does anyone have a picture of these newer engines putting out more smoke? Even a shot of a hall that these certian "polluters" are operating would maybe bring the issue to a better light. Seeing the Lionel stuff, I just have a hard time visualizing that much smoke from a small scale engine. Now sound I can only imagine the noise, added with the ambient crowd noise. I have a hearing problem in crowds as were I can't even hear normal conversation if there is a large amount of background noise, it all blends together, which can get rather frustrating when talking to someone about a price or a tip at the shows.

To chateauricher, I meant no insult, just almost everything now a days, whether my own doing or just because of the way things are effect healthcare costs, I think they almost operate in the same manner as the gas stations on fuel prices, any excuse to raise a costs, it's all about profit. Wish I could have gotton a raise on my paycheck because the cost of fuel or healthcare or better yet model train stuff costs more [;)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chateauricher
[Anyways, to get back on topic ... It is my understanding that a properly maintained steam engine shouldn't be belching much smoke at all. Certainly not in any quantities approaching those that some modelers re-create. If you're going to be modeling accurately, you should (as others on this thread have suggested) also scale down the smoke (and noise) to a more realistic prototypical level.

RIGHT! And what about one of the newest diesels, a VIA P42 passenger engine sitting there in the siding, not moving, with a copiuous amount of smoke continuously pouring out? No need for it whatsoever, even placing a smoke unit in such a model is a farce! If you're modeling an old ALCo diesel, then smoke would be appropriate, but it should be black.

Bob Boudreau

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dthurman

QUOTE: Originally posted by chateauricher

QUOTE: Originally posted by hoscalelarry
Just think -- if the 25% plus or minus quite smoking -- all you NON SMOKERS would have to pay more taxes to make up for what is lost by smokers paying taxes on their packsof smokes.

That is so far from the truth, its laughable.

If all smokers quit, just think of all the healthcare savings there'd be. The amount of money spent per year to treat people with smoking related diseases is surely greater than any tobacco taxes they pay.

Also, by living longer, healthier lives, they could be paying taxes instead of costing the healthcare system millions.

Well I am a smoker, but I respect others that don't smoke so I refrain when in public, and I will honor your rights, to my death (sooner as I am a smoker) BUT if we apply your logic that we would save millions if people quit smoking, then let's apply that rule to those that are overweight, as that also drives up health care costs, oops lets not forget if your company has a large female workforce your healthcare costs are also higher, oh and if there are older folks on the plan, we also pay more. To blame high healthcare costs on smokers is a little extreme when you add all the other items that also inflate the costs of healthcare.

First of all, I was refering to the costs associated only with smoking-related diseases.

Second: gender, age, and many forms of obesity are conditions none of us can control. Whereas smoking is a choice. A choice that affects not just the smoker himself; but those around him and society as a whole.

Generally speaking, I don't care what you do to yourself. That is up to you and I have no right to tell you what to do. However, when your choices and actions start to affect me, I draw the line. Your right to swing your fist stops at my nose.

Anyways, to get back on topic ... It is my understanding that a properly maintained steam engine shouldn't be belching much smoke at all. Certainly not in any quantities approaching those that some modelers re-create. If you're going to be modeling accurately, you should (as others on this thread have suggested) also scale down the smoke (and noise) to a more realistic prototypical level.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Everyone seems to be missing the simplest and most obvious solution to all of this argument about smoke and sound; and that is, if you don't like it, dont go there.

I can also argue the flip side. If what you're doing is irritating or bothering someone, then a CONSIDERATE person would do something to help the other person be more comfortable, personal values aside.

If my vices bother you, then I should at least say I'm sorry when I pass gas, belch, grunt, cough, spit, etc. If I can do something to make it less noticeable, then that's all the better. It's called being a member of a considerate and civilized society.

Same thing for noisey or smoking choo-choos. Turn the noise down a little, and maybe back off on the smoke some if you can tell it's bothering someone. Let face it, if a steamer is smoking TO SCALE, then it won't be making that much smoke. He ALSO won't be making that much noise TO SCALE.

Mark in Utah

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chateauricher

QUOTE: Originally posted by hoscalelarry
Just think -- if the 25% plus or minus quite smoking -- all you NON SMOKERS would have to pay more taxes to make up for what is lost by smokers paying taxes on their packsof smokes.

That is so far from the truth, its laughable.

If all smokers quit, just think of all the healthcare savings there'd be. The amount of money spent per year to treat people with smoking related diseases is surely greater than any tobacco taxes they pay.

Also, by living longer, healthier lives, they could be paying taxes instead of costing the healthcare system millions.

Well I am a smoker, but I respect others that don't smoke so I refrain when in public, and I will honor your rights, to my death (sooner as I am a smoker) BUT if we apply your logic that we would save millions if people quit smoking, then let's apply that rule to those that are overweight, as that also drives up health care costs, oops lets not forget if your company has a large female workforce your healthcare costs are also higher, oh and if there are older folks on the plan, we also pay more. To blame high healthcare costs on smokers is a little extreme when you add all the other items that also inflate the costs of healthcare.

As for smoking engines and loud sound equipped engines, I do think if they are going to cause health related issues, the hosts of these shows needs to place some type of notice at the door. That way those entering are doing so at their own risk. If some people start losing attendance then I would think this could be brought up at meetings or when policy is set to have a intelligent reason/discussion as to some new rules for items that have been abused or are harmful to others.

[Isambard]

Wow, I'm impressed with the response to this thread! You may recall that I commented in my kick-off "(Thinks to himself--the responses to this thread should generate a lot of sound and warmth, if not smoke)". Some of the responses have had my computer smoking!
[:D]

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Everyone seems to be missing the simplest and most obvious solution to all of this argument about smoke and sound; and that is, if you don't like it, dont go there.

So the choice is don't go to train shows or go and suffer. Seems a little unfair.

Maybe we should require show operators to post signs "WARNING this show is hazardous to your health". Bet folks would demand a change.

Enjoy
Paul

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Everyone seems to be missing the simplest and most obvious solution to all of this argument about smoke and sound; and that is, if you don't like it, dont go there.

And therein lies the problem I have with this -

Someone else will be there screaming that they have the RIGHT to pollute the air with noxious chemicals that bollix up my lungs, and that's just too bad for me - it's MY problem.

Bull!

As I said earlier - it isn't a matter of "like," it's a matter of health. Stuff a sock in your smokestack - you do NOT have the right to make me ill.

The most obvious solution that is fair is - Don't run smokers at a show.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Everyone seems to be missing the simplest and most obvious solution to all of this argument about smoke and sound; and that is, if you don't like it, dont go there.

Well if you're a part of the host model railroad club putting on the train show, and have to be there for the entire day, it is kind of difficult not to go there. The smoke (and the sound) from the large scale models CAN be turned down, but the owners don't seem to be interested. I'm betting at our next show they either won't be there or will be reducing their output.

Bob Boudreau

[cacole]

Everyone seems to be missing the simplest and most obvious solution to all of this argument about smoke and sound; and that is, if you don't like it, dont go there.

[wctransfer]

I like sound , dont have any in my engines yet, but they SOUND pretty cool to me. About the ozone topic, since Dubya doesnt want to clean stuff up , we up here in minnesota have had depleting winters for the last 6 years or so. No one cares about the future, because the ones that pass these laws will die before it gets bad, well for us younger people , we have to endure what people have brought to us. All of these factories are causing the ozone to deplete. Some things just **** me off, and no one seems to make things change. About the choo choo smoke, i had a skokey steamer, broke soon after i got it , but wow was that cool seeing that thing smoke, and it didnt bother me. One thing that i agree on, is that people say " i wont smoke because you dont LIKE it". i then say, i cant STAND it, people thing it is just a smell and it isnt.

Alec

[Anonymous]

Why do people always have to point at "the man", etc. with these problems.

People at trains shows causing other people to cough, have breathing problems, get sick, etc. is downright rude.

They should just knock it off.

I love our hobby, but it does contain more than its share of old-school "suck it up" type geezers.

I grew up in a house with smoke until about age 5 or 6. What a shame.

I currently have no friends or colleagues who smoke. I'm around it so seldom that when I am around it for any length of time (an hour or so), I get sick every time, guaranteed. Maybe I should just suck it up and enjoy being sick for a few days each time. All the green crap I cough up each time must be "in my head".

[howmus]

Hey, keep those locos pouring out as many decibels of sound as you can...... Whats the sense of having that power if you don't use it? State of the art hearing aids only cost $3500 each today. But, hey, they only have to be replaced every 5 or 6 years.... Go for it!!! And yes as little as 15 minutes of continuous sound at 120 decibels does permanent damage. I did live sound for rock groups for several years. That finished off what little hearing I still had after 35 years as a vocal music teacher and soloist. According to my audiologist, my own voice destroyed my hearing, and she has the research to prove it. It constantly amazes me that so many people are willing risk their own health and others health along with it for their own personal satisfaction refusing to believe the research that has been done. This goes for both sound and smoking. It sure is a good thing that so many industries have had their own junk science there to save us all from common sense. LOL

[BRAKIE]

Bob,Are these the same people that jogs every morning? If so,then they do have more worries then choo-choo smoke.Of course there are many puppets that believe the evil of smoking causes all ills..This of course is what the corporations want you to believe while they pollute the air.
Now,I always thought choo-choo smoke stinks far worst then any sickening cigar smoke.[xx(]
BTW..I am a anti smoker but feel as long as there is money to be made tobacco use will continue.So my worry is what Corporations of ALL counties is doing to the very air we breathe and the water we drink.[:(!]

[Anonymous]

Ah, hah! So, let's see....the healthcare system would save billions of dollars if people stopped smoking......hmmmm......gee, do you know any industry that really truly favors losing millions of dollars of business? It's all tangled up in money. Personally, I am also one who easily gets bronchitis from cigaret smoke, and being around smokers is digusting to me, too, but I don't see this problem ending soon. Tobacco and health care are both big businesses, with too much at stake.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Guys,Second hand choo-choo smoke is the very least of your worries..Of course Corporate America wants you to worry more about second hand choo-choo or tobacco smoke then the millions tons of the poisonous smoke they put out in a days time and not to mention the cars,trucks,buses and locomotives that pollute the air..Choo-choo smoke is the very least of your worries.

Smoke from model trains has caused difficulties with club members and the public who have breathing problems. Having to be in a closed room all day at a train show is a problem if you are those whom it bothers. This has nothing to do at all with "Corporate America" - it has to do with the health of fellow modelers. The smoke doesn't bother me personally, as I (currently) don't have breathing problems.

So unnecessary overwhelming constant sprewing out of a chemical smoke in a closed room IS a worry. We have laws in our area that forbid the smoking of tobbacco in public places. Why cannot those with breathing problems be free of this hobby generated smoke?

Bob Boudreau

[BRAKIE]

Guys,Second hand choo-choo smoke is the very least of your worries..Of course Corporate America wants you to worry more about second hand choo-choo or tobacco smoke then the millions tons of the poisonous smoke they put out in a days time and not to mention the cars,trucks,buses and locomotives that pollute the air..Choo-choo smoke is the very least of your worries.

[mrgstrain]

I think it is funny that everyone want's and trys to get thing's so close to scale so you can live in our little world's, but when it come's to sound ,(what did you say can't hear you). What about the ears of that poor little guy standing next to the train.
Larry

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chateauricher

QUOTE: Originally posted by hoscalelarry
Just think -- if the 25% plus or minus quite smoking -- all you NON SMOKERS would have to pay more taxes to make up for what is lost by smokers paying taxes on their packsof smokes.

That is so far from the truth, its laughable.

If all smokers quit, just think of all the healthcare savings there'd be. The amount of money spent per year to treat people with smoking related diseases is surely greater than any tobacco taxes they pay.

Also, by living longer, healthier lives, they could be paying taxes instead of costing the healthcare system millions.

Just one of the idiocies that smokers use to try and justify their addiction!

Had a funny/strange one too from one of our Lionel/MTH smokers - he said he heard that arcing brushes in electric motors can make ozone, so maybe the breathing irritation people get at train shows is caused by all of the motors in the trains! Talk about grasping at straws!

Another attempt at justifying the stream of endless smoke spewing out of their models is because the public comes to train shows to "see the latest technology". Meaning of course the ability for them to full everyone's lungs with smoke! I can just imagine a little five year old checking out non-smoking large scale trains and saying "I'm leaving because there is no latest technology being shown".

Gimme a break! And some fresh air too!

Bob Boudreau [8D]

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by hoscalelarry
Just think -- if the 25% plus or minus quite smoking -- all you NON SMOKERS would have to pay more taxes to make up for what is lost by smokers paying taxes on their packsof smokes.

That is so far from the truth, its laughable.

If all smokers quit, just think of all the healthcare savings there'd be. The amount of money spent per year to treat people with smoking related diseases is surely greater than any tobacco taxes they pay.

Also, by living longer, healthier lives, they could be paying taxes instead of costing the healthcare system millions.

[mcouvillion]

I just looked at the chemical composition of the meta-terphenyl used in the smoke liquid. Essentially three benzene rings connected together. Since respiration is one of the fastest ways to assimilate hazardous stuff, I think I will try to avoid places where there is an excess amount of trains smoke. Not good for your long-term health.

Concerning noise, the guys I operate with have all turned down the volume on their sound-equipped locos. We run at about 25% of the maximum, where the default from the factory is usually about 75%.

Mark C.

[Pruitt]

I wondered how long it would be before someone started whining about their right to smoke!

QUOTE: Being a pipe smoker for over 30 years -- and my health problems are NOT from smoking -- I am getting a little tired of everyong trying to "adjust" the level of smoke & noise to what they like. In other words -- our parents lived with noise & smoke - why do we try to 'FORCE" changes on everyone else. If I'm in a smokie place & don't like it -- I leave. When the music on the juke box [at my VFW Post] is to loud -- I leave. Just think -- if the 25% plus or minus quite smoking -- all you NON SMOKERS would have to pay more taxes to make up for what is lost by smokers paying taxes on their packsof smokes. [Just thinking here] I understand a Non Smokers "frustration" with this subject -- however, [off subject] when I ride my wheel chair down the street and a Non smoker tells me I am harming their health by smoking -- I get a "little" upset! I guess I want to say -- come on people -- we need to live together and find that "happy middle ground" for all of us to enjoy the lifestyle we chose. Maybe if you have to be at train show all day -- bring a small fan to blow smoke away from your tables. Just an idea [:)]

Larry -

It isn't a matter of what I "like," it's a matter of what won't irritate my lungs.

Smoke (cigarette, cigar, pipe, burning house, etc.) makes my bronchial passages spasm even if the concentration is relatively low. Suddenly feeling as if you can't breathe is not at all pleasant. Quite often an exposure of only a few hours is enough to give me a bad case of bronchitis. If all you have to do is not smoke for a few hours at a public place, then it's pretty darned self-centered and downright rude of you to insist on pursing your addiction and telling me that if I don't like it I should leave. Instead, you should learn some consideration. You do not have the right to make me ill with your filthy habit, any more than an alcoholic has a right to endanger me by drinking and driving, just because he (or she) has a craving for alcohol.

On the other hand, if you're outside smoking, that isn't a problem for me. You have a right to exercise and display your abject stupidity if you want, and outdoors the smoke dissipates fast enough that it doesn't affect my lungs, unless I'm directly downwind of you, and very close by. Then I'll move. The only real problem I have with smokers outdoors, which apparently doesn't apply to you, is seeing all the cigarette butts lying on the ground.

Sorry if this post is rude, but your "up yours, non-smokers!" attitude makes it very difficult to be otherwise.

[BRAKIE]

Guys,Allow me to say this..After having a major and near fatal heart attack on March 29 I no longer worry of what might,can or could happen..Life is way to short and fragile for worries.Enjoy life today because tomorrow just might be your last regardless of your age.