Basic question:HO or N?

[Anonymous]

Hello, I kinda (well, make that "very") new to model railroading, something I've been wanting to do for a long time, but now that I'm retired (kinda), I have the time and a few extra dollars that I can spend to do it right. Before I get too involved, my first question to those here is: Which do you prefer, HO or N, and why?

I can definitely see the space advantage of N over HO, but fooling around with N scale appears that it might be a little tedious. I've got some HO stock and a few accessories, but not too much that I can't switch to N if that's my descision, but I would appreciate some direction and some suggestions.

I've got some room in the garage for at least a 4' x 8' layout, but the space is adjacent to my workshop that can get messy from time to time. I also have a wife that is extremely tolerant and understanding...:-)

Don

[BRAKIE]

Don,Both scales have much to offer a modeler.I would not recommend putting your layout in the garage due to the many problems you will have there.
Now,if you don't have room for your 4'x8' in the house,then may I recommend a 36"x72" hollow core door? One can make a fine N scale layout on a door.The best part is it doesn't take much room.In N scale you could go as small as a 30"x 72" door also.

[dknelson]

Well if your wife is extremely tolerant and understanding, if I was you I'd put model railroading on the back burner and spend more time with the wife. (that's a JOKE, son).
If 4x8 is all the space you will ever have then i think you would find HO a bit confining as far as a layout goes. my own preference is for HO but only because I have the space to do what I really want to do.
Dave Nelson

[emdgp92]

I have a small L-shaped switching layout that runs along two walls in my basement. Since it's only about 2 feet wide, it doesn't take up too much space. Eventually, I plan on putting some bookshelves under it...to keep all those issues of MR off the floor :)

[Anonymous]

I Partical am to HO as the older I get the less my can see detail and my hands are not as steady and agial.

I would like to suggest putting in the house or partion the layout from the workshop witha wall.

At the present time I am updating a 4' X 6' layout for nickel-silver flex track with DCC control. I built the layout 30+ years ago when we were living in a mobile home. Iam using it to learn scenery. I may able build a 6' X 10' layout in the future.
John W.Ennis
[e-mail]

[cprted]

The other option you might want to explore is joining a modular club. This takes the space issue right out of the equation. Joining a club will put you in contact with other, more experienced modeless that can give you help and advice along the way, as well being able to operate on a large layout.

[Anonymous]

Thank you all for your answers and suggestions. I'm kind of partial to going in the N direction because of the limited space available, but have been concerned about working with that small of a scale. The closest modeling clubs I can find are about an hour's drive away and they have no permanent home. Besides, I like the idea of being able to work on it when I want to whenever I want to. We live in Wickenburg Arizona, about 50 miles NW of the Phoenix metro area, and the only hobby shop here closed about two years ago so I'm short on advice from that angle as well.

And as far as spending more time with my wife, well, we worked together in our own business for over 20 years, and we really need to spend some time apart from each other. (and that ain't no joke)...:-D She did say though that her undersanding and tolerance was limited to my not setting up trains in the living area of our house.

Don

[Anonymous]

Go to http://www.arizonarails.com/az_rail_links.html
for information on clubs and modular groups in the Phoenix area.

The best place in Phoenix for model railroad advice / equipment is An Affair With Trains, just off I-17 on West Bethany Home Road.

As for HO vs. N, besides available space, a lot depends on your interests and your level of modeling skill. Besides being a lot easier on your eyesight, HO offers the potential for a much higher degree of detail. I've also found it to be a lot less finicky than N when it comes to
things like installing couplers, replacing grab irons, installing decoders, soldering joints, repairing switches, etc.

Archie

[Anonymous]

I model in both scales and would like to add to your thread. N scale is great for running long trains and having a wonderful "kingdom". HO is best for a lot of switching like a yard or industrial complex. In N scale I would avoid the cheap brands and stay with Atlas, Kato, Micro-trains. Their stuff is wonderful and reliable.

[Anonymous]

Hi Don,

I know where you are... lived in Phoenix and was stationed at Luke AFB, used to go through there when I went so So. Calif., where I lived growing up. If you have room for a 4x8, and HO has the locos and rolling stock, I'd say go for it, if you want to model a small town on the main... let's see, Wickenburg was a ATSF from Phoenix, a line next to Grand Ave.... I lived there, and Los Angeles, now in Illinois, not far from the ATSF line BNSF line now. I'm fond of N scale, layouts can be smaller, nearly half, but 66% is more real... I'd go for a door size with loop and removeable staging or 3-6 tracks. But, really, what do you want... I want to see trains run, and I like buildings... towns, farms... - tom

[BRAKIE]

Dan,I understand what you are saying about switching cars.I am sorry to disagree.

I have switch more the my share of HO and N scale cars-I model both. I see no difference in switching cars in either scale.
Durning the 80s when I frist went into N scale I used the old repedo coupler,back long cuts of cuts through my yard ladder and had no problems doing so.I used the Atlas standard switch that came in the yellow box.Sooo,yes,one can switch cars in N scale just like HO.

There is so much falsehood about N scale,I find myself replying to comments like you made.Nothing against you,understand,but,trying to get the facts straight no more no less.

[Anonymous]

I agree, but Red Caboose's products rival any scale's bests. N scale has come a long way. Every scale has its advantages and shortcomings. If I had more space, I would model HO--it's easier on the eyes but much more unforgiving in the details.

[Anonymous]

Say Don I've check out what others been saying and maybe n scale may be your best bet.Me myself I'am a ho scaler just seem that to pay a lot for n scale loco's & rolling stock that I really can't see it just hurt my eyes at times.It does has it advantages far as space goes whatever you decide is allright by me.

[BRAKIE]

The biggest problem with HO you need alot of room for a nice layout.A 4'x8' is nice if it is plan right from the start.The very second one starts to add unneeded space eating mountains and grades on that 4'x8' he has lost the chance of building a great little layout...

[Anonymous]

Hello Tom,

You are right. It is BNSF. There is some sort of repair facility here in Wickenburg. The original passenger depot still stands but houses the Chanber of Commerce and visitor's center. I've often wished that they would move out and restore it back to the way it should be.

I can see the advantages of both scales and value the opinions of those that have done either or both. I have found a club in the north Phoenix area that appearently has a home in a RR park. They seem to have N, HO and G scale layouts, and have weekly work meetings, so I'm going to contact them and stop by.

From what I see here and on other forums, I've not met a more passionate group of people about a hobby, nor one more dedicated to realism than model railroaders. I can see where my control systems background will finally pay off doing something that is just a lot of fun and is something I want to do rather than something I have to do. Not that I've not enjoyed my career, just that I can now pick and choose what I want to do, rather than doing what my customers wanted and I can do it on my own schedule, not their's.

Take care,

Don

[Anonymous]

Hi Don, I was in HO before I retired and we bought a smaller house, no room fo a large layout and I got tired of setting up the HO for a week or so and then taking it down. I live on the west central coast of Florida no way could I have a layout in the garage to hot, wood workshop dust, truck, boat.etc. I got into N scale last year after I attended a train show and there were several nice layouts on display and I thought that's for me. I built one coffee table size 2ft. x 4ft.4in. with two tracks so I can run 2 trains at the same time and you would be suprised at how much you can do in that little space. I am 69 yrs. old and recently underwent open heart surgery so I kept it simple. I have built a few N scale roundhouse cars and a few structures, one of which was the Miller Engineering Co. Gazebo without to much of a problem and engine repair is not all that bad but I do have a magnifier with a light. All of my HO now resides in a curio cabinet in the den plus a closet full. If you post your email address I could send you a few photos if your interested, or if I could help in anyway. It's a great hobby no matter which way you go, Good Luck
Andrew ( Beeline )

[Anonymous]

Andrew,

I would love to see them. I guess on this forum your email address does not get posted. A good Idea for sure; helps minimize getting on a spammer's list. Anyway, you can send me the pictures at [e-mail].

I really appreciate the input from you and the others. I guess I'd realy like to go N scale because of the space limitations, but I also have to weigh the downsides of that scale as well. And thanks to the comment that several people have made, I also have to rethink the area I have set aside in the garage. Either that, or I'll have to give up woodworking.

Don

[Anonymous]

Hello Larry; as you know, I usually agree with you, but, as Yogi Berra once said, "When you come to a fork in the road, take it !"
I would generally agree with your statement on minimum size for a nice H0 layout, BUT, the first Gorre & Daphetid was 3'7" by 6'8", and had an over-under grade.This layout was incorporated into John Allen's second[1948-53] and third, final G & D.
That little original layout, from 1946-47, was John's 'training module', where he learned a great many of the techniques he perfected later.
Someone who wanted to learn hand laying track, scratchbuilding, and other old-time techniques could do well with a very small H0 layout.
Best regards for 2003 / Mike

[Anonymous]

Well, to each their own.

[Anonymous]

They do now, for sure. However they had some marginal stuff a while back.

[Anonymous]

i would go N . I am ho myself but i have always wanted to change to n scale but i dont n e dough to buy some n scale track

[BRAKIE]

Mike,Indeed that G&D layout was a master piece of its day.There is no doubts or questions about that concidering the era that layout was built in-not exactly the best of days in the hobby in those early years..

I have wondered over the last 4-5 years how John would have built that layout today..

Mike,I really doubt if you will see that much hand laid track in the years to come..After all some have stated they have no time to build a simple Athearn or MDC car kit and perfer their cars come RTR.Deep sigh here.Oh well!

[Anonymous]

Larry...my comment on handlaid track and scratchbuilding was 'tongue-in-cheek', strictly wishful thinking.
I still fear that high cost/RTR will mean the gradual decline of the hobby.
regards / Mike

[Anonymous]

Hi Andrew,
I was curious if you could also email an image or two of your coffee table layout. I am contemplating N scale because of space limitations.

Thank you,
Kid
[e-mail]

[Anonymous]

Don,

Sounds like you have pretty much made up your mind about going N scale, but I had to drop my two cents worth anyway.

My interest in HO scale started when I was a teenager so when the interest in model railroading resurfaced and when my son came of age to appreciate the hobby, I naturally resumed HO scale.

I have looked at N scale from time to time and I keep seeing (barely) the difficulties with detail work. I believe you are a mechanically inclined person and would have a tendency toward detail work given the time. I would think that with slipping eye sight, as most of us experience, a level of detail work in N scale would not satisfy your technical urges as much as HO scale would.

I think I read a suggestion in this thread to get involved in a local club to help you get into the hobby deep enough to find which scale you would be most satisfied with. Its kinda hard to switch scales on a retirement budget after you have been collecting for a while.

Ken, D&J Railroad, Stafford, VA

[Anonymous]

Ken,

Thanks for your input. You are right, it is hard to switch after making a large investment in time, space and money in another scale. That's why I wanted to do my homework before committing to one or the other.

I agree that one does give up something in detail with N scale, but I think I'm willing to give up that slight edge after seeing how much more I can do in the available space. I bought some HO scale building kits and put them together. I did the same for N scale. I found that the N scale wasn't that much more difficult to work with, and boy, I was really amazed at the level of detail that there was. I have yet to try my had a building scenery but I'm taking it one step at a time.

You are also right regarding eyesight, but coming out of the electronic industry, I'm use to working under magifier lamps with small parts and trying to get parts to fit within a few mils. Half the size is probably four times more difficut to work with in terms of accuracy, and I can see where a slight error in HO becomes a huge error in N; but I guess I like the challenge. Besides, I need a few lessons in patience that I forgot in the "gotta ship it now" world that I just left. :-)

The bottom line is that I have not made a large investment in either scale yet and I am planning on going to a club that has both HO and N scale layouts to see first hand what up to now I have only read about. The club is a bit over an hour's drive away, but I have been told that there are a few guys that live close to me that are members, so I'm going to get in touch with them first.

Thanks to everyone that have replied here and by email.

Don, Wickenburg, AZ

[Anonymous]

Well, it seems the older I get, the clumsier I get. That means, HO is about as small as I can go. If I can afford a larger place, I might go with O scale. You know the old story. Build the ultimate layout, then put a house over it to keep the rain off.

[Anonymous]

I disagree with you that the hobby will decline. If you compare today's RTR with the high-end "brass" of 35 years ago, RTR is several orders of magnitude better than the old "brass" both in appearance and performance at about half the price. That doesn't even account for the devaluation of the dollar since then. Taking that into account, today's equipment if a terrific bargain.

[Anonymous]

Norm,

>>Build the ultimate layout, then put a house over it to keep the rain off.

I like that philosophy. I should have know that a model railroader would have a logical approach to solve the problem. Now if we can only sell my wife on the idea.

Don

[Anonymous]

Norm, I don't disagree that today's R-T-R is better than the brass of 35 years ago, in many ways. but I remember the brass of 35 years was just a dream for a majority of modelers, due to it's cost.
I could , and DID, buy a good used automobile in 1963, for the price of a brass articulated at that time.
I was just an apprentice at that time, and I could only afford to set aside about 2 bucks a week, at most, for my hobby.That,however, was about 4.5% of what I earned...a lot of people can't set aside 4.5% of their earnings for a hobby these days....I know I sure couldn't have, when I retired a couple of years ago. Due to the rising costs of life's necessities, there are, and will continue to be, less and less people who can afford to enter and stay in the hobby...especially if the lower cost kits disappear, and the old scratchbuilding skills become obsolete.The folks I see over at the Atlas forum who are accumulating dozens and dozens of high cost diesels as such models are released, do these folks now represent the modeling majority ? To me, they seem to have little or nothing in common with most model railroaders of yesteryear.
regards / Mike