Walthers purchases assets of Life-Like Products Toy and Hobby Division; Roco declares bankruptcy

[fbrand]

What strikes me is the overall pessimistic view on the buyout.
Change is normal. The last few years have been quite stable but I think changes are not necessarily a bad thing and often turn out for the better.

Does anyone remember the rubbish LL product of the 1970's and 80's? Before the Proto line?
As a European modeller who "went US" 20 years ago I think it's amusing to hear US modelers complain about high prices. 200-300 Euro's for a locomotive is normal here. I still think US model trains are quite cheap. Sure, the prices rise steadily, but you also get a lot more train for the dollar. There has been a tremendous increase in quality in the last 10 years or so.
I have collected a lot of old Model Railroaders over the years, going way back to the 1950's. Funny thing is, history keeps repeating itself in terms of crises and industry shakeups. In a 1974 editorial, with the energy crisis in full gear, the possible repercussions for the hobby were discussed. Reading that put things in perspective for me.
In the last 3 decades the industry pumped out an enormous amount of product, a lot of it still floating about on eBay. There are simply too many players on the market and they produce too much. A merger wave was bound to happen. I don't think we'll be any worse for it.
After all, WE are the buyers and those companies exist on OUR hard-earned money. So who says THEY decide what the future will look like?

[fbrand]

As for the Roco situation: I didn't like the news but it was not very surprising.

The European economy has been sluggish for the last few years. People have less money to spend on expensive hobbies, or are less willing to do so. Even with an understanding spouse it's increasingly difficult to justify the purchase of another $ 300 locomotive.
This price spiral has been putting me off for the last few years. And the "limited edition" ripoff really annoys me no end. You pay collector's prices for a model that is just a slight color/number variation of a mass-produced model. There is nothing exclusive about that. And why only make high-end models and not also a range of lesser detailed but more affordable models? Some manufacturers are finally catching on to this idea now. They had to, with Hornby and Bachmann invading the European market with made-in-China models that look and run just a good at a fraction of the price. I'm not saying that it's a good thing to outsource production to low wage countries, but I'm also a consumer who likes to get good value for money.

I've noticed in the German model press too a tendency to showcase layouts built by (or for) collectors in their 50s with fat salaries, but I don't think this is the majority of the hobbyists. We have mortgages and families to care for. Instead of adapting to a saturated market that is less willing to shell out a lot of money, Roco continued to pump out new products that nobody wants and the prices kept rising fast.

I have a lot of Roco myself and I always thought they made very good models that cost a lot less than other manufacturers, but not anymore. A nice Swiss electric locomotive I recently saw in a hobby shop would have set me back 230 Euro ($ 277). Steamers and the digital/sound locos cost a lot more. In the end I bought a similar Fleischmann model for 70 Euro ($ 84) on eBay.
Someone in this thread suggested making basic models that the modeler can later update with click-in digital and sound modules. That sounds like a good idea.

In the end, it's a matter of economics and good management. The big manufacturers have grown complacent and expect neverending profit growth. Who's going to buy all these trains anyway? They need to rethink their business model and adapt or else go under. I'd hate to see favorite brands go but on the other hand I don't have to sponsor bad business practices.

[selector]

I've been happy to sit on the sidelines to this point. There is not much left to say, except to add a personal statement.

I really like my LL 0-6-0, a supebly finished, if lightweight, locomotive. I would be dismayed to learn, in a few weeks, that the line had been revised and some models, particularly steam, were being discontinued. Happily, if I am to defer to those who have purchased them, Spectrum and Athearn products are doing well to improve their lines, and we are pretty much agreed that BLI is doing very well for the most part...minus a hiccup here and there. PCM and Overland are wooing us...big time!

I figure that if even one company stays in the ring and produces whatever we will buy to the extent that there is a living to be had, someone else will want a share of it. It has always been that way. Accordingly, I would expect the hobby to remain healthy in the long term due to competition for the surpisingly high numbers of dollars that so many of us are willing to spend (if the current thread on how many of X and Y you have is any indication).

Have fun and run trains, fellas. When they break, order a new one, or kitbash, just like we have done for the last 80 years. Whatever you get, whether bashed or bought, it is sure to be an imporvement over what you had.

[trolleyboy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Krasny Strela

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericboone

QUOTE: Originally posted by trolleyboy

This will likley be bad news for canadian modellers. LL licensed distribution to Canadian paint schemes and Canadian prototype locomotives to Hobbycraft Canada.With the aquisition all these models will be gone.It was good to get canadian specific locomotives with proper detail parts without having to go the brass route. Indeed a sad day. Rob

Why wouldn't Walthers simply distrubute these to Canada or does Canada have some law stating that only Canadian companies can sell model trains with Canadian paint schemes? If my assumption is true, couldn't Walthers set up a similar Canadian division or maybe Canada could get rid of the silly law, again, if my assumption is true.

What law?
Its simply that this segment of the market is quite small. The more unusual Canadia schemes (TH&B, ONR) wouldn't sell enough units to attract one of the US players, so a niche market has developed. One that may not interest Walthers any more.

Thought I would jump back in. The Canadian content / question has been well explained by a few other's. Indeed the canadian market is smaller, but hobbycraft has been able to keep the prices in line. I suppose my big fear is that many of the US based companies won't offer canadian roads otheer than CN / CP. Many of us do model the smaller less known roads TH&B ,ONR to name just a couple. Hobby craft has offered all the small roads where appropriate. One other tidbit when the proto C-linners came out that was first and foremost a Hoobycraft initiative. It wasn't even on LL's radar. When they sold so well up here and people saw the detail then LL bought up the dies and produced the US roadnames.I know that the Hobbycraft deal made them the exclusive seller of the CDN paint jobs and models , but this also has made them not readily available in the US. If American LHS's wanted them they had / have to order them from Hobbycraft.Walthers though a solid company has shown little want for CDN roadnames when they have produced models they just slap a CN or CP paint scheme on a US prototype which in most cases is no where near correct for those who want a properly detailed model. Yes detail parts are somewhat available but in the day and age of well detailed painted kits it's a shame to have to cut and repaint them. Hobbycraft recognized this and went so far as to make sure all the details were correct paint schemes were correct and the road numbers were in the right ranges for the years represented on the models. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that walther's see's this and continues to co-operate with Hobbycraft Canada.

[PNCROSE]

It appears that Walthers has a lot of PR work to do. I think most of the posts here have been negative, both on the fate of Life-Like products and the future of the hobby as a whole. Only time will tell. I have to wonder with others about which little fish will be swallowed next. If this acquisition trend continues, will Walther's and Horizon begin to demand that LHS only carry their individual product at line and exclude the other? This has the possibility of becoming extremely nasty down the road.

I hope that one advantage of this arrangement is that the listing of Life-Like equipment in the Walther's catalog increases from just one page. I always thought that was inadequate.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fbrand

I've noticed in the German model press too a tendency to showcase layouts built by (or for) collectors in their 50s with fat salaries, but I don't think this is the majority of the hobbyists.

Hey... I'm in my 50's and I worked VERY HARD for a VERY LONG TIME to get a Chubby Paycheck... don't you go putting it down!!

[;)][;)]

P.S. The old check will go on a major diet in a few years when I retire, so you don’t need to worry about it much.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fbrand

I've noticed in the German model press too a tendency to showcase layouts built by (or for) collectors in their 50s with fat salaries, but I don't think this is the majority of the hobbyists.

Hey... I'm in my 50's and I worked VERY HARD for a VERY LONG TIME to get a Chubby Paycheck... don't you go putting it down!!

[;)][;)]

P.S. The old check will go on a major diet in a few years when I retire, so you don’t need to worry about it much.

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

Lifelike was nothing but junk so if Walthers can improve the line, then more power to them. There's been rumors about MTH acquiring a small scale company but I don't think they considered Lifelike.

How much does Mike pay you? [V]

[fbrand]

QUOTE:

Hey... I'm in my 50's and I worked VERY HARD for a VERY LONG TIME to get a Chubby Paycheck... don't you go putting it down!!

P.S. The old check will go on a major diet in a few years when I retire, so you don’t need to worry about it much.

The remark wasn't meant as a put-down, so why interpret it as one?
I can afford the expensive models, but I'm still uncomfortable with the high prices for European trains.

My point is, that the big manufacturers seem to cater more and more to mature hobbyists with a large disposable income and ignore the people with less deep pockets. This seems a short-sighted strategy to me, as this market will dry up in 10-20 years and then what? And I don't believe that young people aren't interested because of Playstation et al. We've heard that story before, only then it was slot-car racing, transformers, etc. Young people can be drawn into the hobby. But we can do all the promoting we want but without availability of affordable models nothing will come of it.

I understand that high-end models generate more profit, but it still is wise to offer a choice. If you don't, you lose customers. This hobby has done so well because a LOT of people could afford to get involved. Catering only to a small market of affluent buyers is short sighted and will dimini***he hobby in the long run.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fbrand

QUOTE:

Hey... I'm in my 50's and I worked VERY HARD for a VERY LONG TIME to get a Chubby Paycheck... don't you go putting it down!!

P.S. The old check will go on a major diet in a few years when I retire, so you don’t need to worry about it much.

The remark wasn't meant as a put-down, so why interpret it as one?
I can afford the expensive models, but I'm still uncomfortable with the high prices for European trains.

My point is, that the big manufacturers seem to cater more and more to mature hobbyists with a large disposable income and ignore the people with less deep pockets. This seems a short-sighted strategy to me, as this market will dry up in 10-20 years and then what? And I don't believe that young people aren't interested because of Playstation et al. We've heard that story before, only then it was slot-car racing, transformers, etc. Young people can be drawn into the hobby. But we can do all the promoting we want but without availability of affordable models nothing will come of it.

I understand that high-end models generate more profit, but it still is wise to offer a choice. If you don't, you lose customers. This hobby has done so well because a LOT of people could afford to get involved. Catering only to a small market of affluent buyers is short sighted and will dimini***he hobby in the long run.

Fbrand, this and your previous post tend to contain both solid truths and some decided errors.

I'm afraid that there is absolutely no question that, at least in the U.S., HO model railroading is dominated by hobbyists with an average age in the mid-50's. Every study or survey taken in the past decade indicates this and that the figure is rising very steadily.

However, I agree completely with you where it concerns the current aim of manufacturers. They are purposely targeting the individuals in this age group because that is where the most disposable income is available. Since the current business strategy is to get the greatest return on investment in the shortest possible time and without stocking any product, the longterm retail availability of a given model is probably a thing of the past. As I've said in other posts, items aimed at the masses will sell steadily but will lack the panic buying aspect seen with limited runs. It requires large production runs and stocking to operate this way and the return on investment is slow. This was the Athearn sales model of years gone by and is unlikely to return.

The manufacturers are no fools and understand that, just as you say, in 10-20 years there likely won't be a viable market for them to operate in. Thus, now is the time to maximize profits. Once the Baby Boomers fade into history, hobbyist numbers will steadily decline. There is simply no follow-up generation with a widespread interest in model trains to take their place. The slot car situation occurred in a completely different era, one in which kids still recalled their Lionel and Flyer Christmastime train roots. As they aged, that interest and the fond memories returned. There is no such association with folks born in the 70's, 80's, or 90's. At the same time, exposure to real trains has been largely limited to wrecks covered on CNN. AMTRAK is all but dead and to the public freight trains are viewed as an obstruction or hazard to gradecrossing traffic! Like many hobbies, model railroading is largely based on an interest expressed by a certain generation. When they are no more, so essentially is the hobby.

Young people today also typically lack many of the practical skills necessary for building model railroads. Ours is a hand-on hobby, not one where the push of a button on a game paddle executes and completes the operation. These kids are used to a world where things can be had RIGHT NOW, not labored on for months or years. This is a completely different outlook from that of the majority of today's hobbyists and can not, in my mind, be overcome in the future.

So, you ask, what will the manufacturers do if the hobby disappears in the future? You saw that Life-Like trains was just a minor division of a much larger foam company. If the train division had started to loose money, it simply would have been cut. Other companies might well be able to shift to the importation (remember hardly anyone is "manufacturing" in the States today) of other small electronic devices. Most of the bigger companies are today run not by former hobbyists who love trains but by excellent businessmen who could easy switch from importing model trains to importing electric shavers!

We all want to see our hobby go on and on into the future, no one more than I, but we can't let that desire cloud our view of the realities of what is happening around us.

CNJ831

[starwardude]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
The manufacturers are no fools and understand that, just as you say, in 10-20 years there likely won't be a viable market for them to operate in. Thus, now is the time to maximize profits. Once the Baby Boomers fade into history, hobbyist numbers will steadily decline. There is simply no follow-up generation with a widespread interest in model trains to take their place. The slot car situation occurred in a completely different era, one in which kids still recalled their Lionel and Flyer Christmastime train roots. As they aged, that interest and the fond memories returned. There is no such association with folks born in the 70's, 80's, or 90's. At the same time, exposure to real trains has been largely limited to wrecks covered on CNN. AMTRAK is all but dead and to the public freight trains are viewed as an obstruction or hazard to gradecrossing traffic! Like many hobbies, model railroading is largely based on an interest expressed by a certain generation. When they are no more, so essentially is the hobby.

Young people today also typically lack many of the practical skills necessary for building model railroads. Ours is a hand-on hobby, not one where the push of a button on a game paddle executes and completes the operation. These kids are used to a world where things can be had RIGHT NOW, not labored on for months or years. This is a completely different outlook from that of the majority of today's hobbyists and can not, in my mind, be overcome in the future.

So, you ask, what will the manufacturers do if the hobby disappears in the future? You saw that Life-Like trains was just a minor division of a much larger foam company. If the train division had started to loose money, it simply would have been cut. Other companies might well be able to shift to the importation (remember hardly anyone is "manufacturing" in the States today) of other small electronic devices. Most of the bigger companies are today run not by former hobbyists who love trains but by excellent businessmen who could easy switch from importing model trains to importing electric shavers!

We all want to see our hobby go on and on into the future, no one more than I, but we can't let that desire cloud our view of the realities of what is happening around us.

CNJ831

The first paragraph is definately a true thing. The second paragraph is also partially true. There are young adults, like myself, who are what I beleive to be gifted patience, common sense, and an understanding that you can't just instantly make an object materialize in front of us. I say the part about being gifted because kids today do the stupidest things. A good part of the guys in my class broke either an arm or a leg skateboarding at some point in their lives up 'til now. Also, if you go to train shows, Amidst your piers, you will see some teenagers trundling around, looking at and buying trains. They are the ones who will follow in your footsteps. Myself included.
The last paragraph is what could happen, but there's no way of knowing. Hey, maybe Walthers will replace some of their junk with the higher quality Life-Like products. But the only person who knows that is normally inaccessable. You meet him when you become an [angel]. You know who he is. End of reply.

[fbrand]

CNJ831,

Let's say I am an uncurable optimist.
But I see your point about the newer generations. That has me worried a great deal. At school we learned to do complex calculations straight from the head. Only later were we allowed to use calculators. Try that one on the younger crowd. I don't think they are less able than we, they're probably superior to us in several skills. But I agree their outlook is totally different to ours, and I wonder wether old fashioned hobbies that require designing and building things that take a lot of time would appeal to them.

Also, I don't see the interest that modern trains (in Europe) have for them. Mind you, I like to ride on the snappy Eurostar and TGV in real life but they make a poor model train in my view. They just zip along and thats it. Container trains, hmmm. All modern European engines have that same CAD design look, only the colors are different.

I prefer trains from 1910-1960, wether it's in the UK, Germany or USA.
Steam engines, fascinating technology, the sense of history. I love studying period photo's and advertising and recreating that in miniature.
The history of German railroads of 1914-1950 alone makes fascinating reading, both in technology and the immense impact of two world wars.
But, you're right, it is unlikely that the younger generations are interested in this. History is just boring old stuff to most of them.

The situation in the US is worse. At least in Europe, people are accustomed to travel on trains. And goverments actively support railroading and rail public transport.
As you said, Amtrak is fading away and the only trains people see are anonymous freights that lumber by as they wait at a RR crossing. It is encouraging that a lot of big cities are building light rail systems, but overall the outlook is not very encouraging.

I think it's true that when the postwar generations disappear the market will shrink significantly. I just hope that somehow the hobby stays afloat.

Funny isn't it? The model train situation mimicks the real thing. In the old days the RR's were run by genuine railroaders with several generations on the job. Then modern management took over and they became just a business, and a lot of them not very profitable. So many were killed off and the rest merged into a few super companies.
The same thing now seems to happen within the model RR industry.

[Anonymous]

Hate to burst your bubble, but here in upstate NY, they both carry the low end of the LL trainsets. Toys -r-Us has it more often than Wal-mart (usually at X-mas for Wally World).
JP

[Martin4]

I think the Walthers move will be a good thing.

For the last few years LL Proto prices went up much faster than any of its competitors. They have incredible detail that was previously seen only on brass models but most of their issues were sold out before they reached the hobby shops. LL has a lot of annouced models that nobody has seen yet.

Walthers money will make them able to finally get all those models to the market and I would bet on new issues of previous short runs.

Martin
Québec City

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Martin4

I think the Walthers move will be a good thing.

For the last few years LL Proto prices went up much faster than any of its competitors. They have incredible detail that was previously seen only on brass models but most of their issues were sold out before they reached the hobby shops. LL has a lot of annouced models that nobody has seen yet.

Walthers money will make them able to finally get all those models to the market and I would bet on new issues of previous short runs.

Martin
Québec City

Walthers has more or less being doing the same thing with their own models - produce a batch and retire the molds. There have been many posts inquiring about the tug boat and other models in their waterfront series. Why should they be any different with LL models? They surely know that "limited run" models usually sell out, so they don't have to pay the cost of warehousing several thousand copies of the model, hoping they will eventually sell. Unsold models sitting on the shelves cost a firm money.

Bob Boudreau

[Darth Santa Fe]

This topic's been sticky for a while now. How much longer will it be that way?

[philnrunt]

I'm just waiting for them to bring out some engines and cars cut in half lengthways, call them Backround Trainyard Flats and charge way way too much for 'em.
One thing I will say is Walthers does have a good history of supporting the hobby, so I think we'll keep seeing P2K . But I bet the MSRP goes up a bit.
Just like everything else- KMart&Sears, UP&SP, etc, they still want our cash, so lets see how they go about parting us from it.

[Anonymous]

I contacted Mike at Walthers about running problems I was having with newly purchased proto 1000 c-liner and an RDC. He said they had not received the inventory of life like and to call back in about a month. He indicated that the warranty would be honored. I hope so. But I too feel that the prices for life like will start to be expensive. I saw almost no life like in and ad in model railroader from trainworld but then again they often rotate between two and four page ads and this was their two page ad. However I have always though Waltheres was over priced for all but the well heeled in the hobby. Just my opinion.

[Derailedtoosoon]

I re-entered model railroading in 2003 after too long of a break when my wife purchased an IHC light mountain dressed in Southern green along with a Walthers catalog. We began purchasing rolling stock slowly until I noticed a cost spiraling trend, eliminating kids and young people from the market in favor of the affluent.

I commented to my wife, "That's just great. The same thing happened after I built my first drag race car". That hobby went from shade tree mechanics need for speed to a hundred K $ in order to be nationally competitive according to Hot Rod Magazine.
The drag racing sport still exists, but so many small local drag strips went bankrupt that today’s teens use public streets rather than older adult supervised drag strips, killing many of themselves and citizens just driving home from the grocery store.

The same thing happened to the housing industry in the '70s after some get rich quick rich people caused home prices to spiral out of the grasp of younger couples for many years.

I really feel insecure about the model train industry. I wonder how long we baby boomers will keep supporting the spiraling prices.
I feel angry every time I pick up a boxcar costing more than $20 when I purchased similar kits for $8 to $12 two years ago. One of the larger local model train shops recently went out of business.

I assume everyone has noticed when Walthers puts sale prices on items; a lot of them disappear completely from the market. This also seems to be starting a lot of panic buying.

I heard about General Motors' iron fist hitting the HO and N scale vehicle market Saturday. Peachy, another door slammed in our faces. If you want any more Chevy’s on your layout, it's time to panic purchase again!

Thanks for gathering around the soapbox. [soapbox]

Roy

[Anonymous]

If you think that the hobby has become to expensive for the youth market, check out the price of an I-Pod. Even the least expensive, no display, random play unit is $100 . However no assembly is required of the unit, only seven trips to the store to find out how to get "something" loaded into it.
The good news is that the "baby boomers" in the hobby have grand kids to pass on the hobby to. The market palce will dictate whether the rocco's will go away or the Athearns and Life Likes will continue to manufacture product within a different corporate structure. Sounds like "Blue Boxes" are coming back into stock this fall as the product works its way through manufacturing packaging and distribution. May we "live in interesting times".
Will

[davekelly]

Not just I-Pods. I am constantly amazed that there are Jr. High School kids with cell phones that cost four or five times what mine cost. I can only imagine what the bills are (my son is only 11 and doesn't have one) when I see scores of kids on their phones are they walk out of the school!! Look at the cost of the video game players and the games.


fbrand,

You bring up some intersting points about today's kids. I think you will find this useful. Several years ago while working on my masters, I had to take a statistics class. Always having loved math I enjoyed estimating the answer before working the problem and working many of the problems long hand. The guy next to me would chuckle his butt off at me as he showed me his super calculator which did all the computations with only a few keystrokes. Of course it was quite humorous to watch him on the final when his calculator battery died!

starwardue

As you are part of the younger set of this hobby, I have to ask you this. Was their an adult in your life that showed you the way? I'm betting that somewhere along the way there was a parent, a teacher etc. that groomed and encouraged this.

[kathymillatt]

Hi Guys

I've heard that Walthers only produces paint schemes in its set 13 (?) rail roads.

If this is the case will those of us that rely on Life-Like to fill out our rostas for the other roads be left with nothing?

Kathy

[Anonymous]

I realize that I am coming into this thread near it's conclusion, however, I feel compelled to add my own two cents worth here.
If, as stated in an earlier message, Life Like was purchased by an investment group sometime back, to me this all makes perfect sense. One of the things that aquisition groups do, is buy up multi pronged companies with an eye to selling off the lesser lights of the prong. These company divisions may be profitable in there own right, just not profitable enough for the purchaser. Buy selling off these arms of the company, the purchaser has in fact paid for his aquisition of the whole. If not in full, then certainly more than half way. If that arm of the company is profitable, the more the seller can ask as a selling price. I believe Life Like to be just such a company.
Enter Walthers. With the loss of the Athearn and MDC lines of product over the last couple of years, their bottom line is probably suffering somewhat. Not enough to put them out of business, but enough to make them notice. Along comes Life Like's toy division. What better way to try and recoup that loss to the bottom line than purchase a company that offers a line of product which is basically an exact match to the product line you have lost? When you think about it, Walthers is in a better position with this purchase than they would be dealing with an independant producer. All costs are controlled by them from manufacture to sale with no middle men to worry about.
Again, to me, makes perfect sense. Obviously Walthers thought so too!
What this means to the purchasing hobbiest remains to be seen. I recall when Horizon bought out Athearn. The threads of doom and gloom ran rampant. Price increases, lack of availability and on and on. I have noticed while reading the various hobby forums, that for every person willing to offer a positive viewpoint about a subject, there are just as many people taking the negative position. Classic glass half empty, half full type stuff.
As I own quite a number of Proto locomotives and freight car products and would buy more with no reservations, I am interested to see how this all shakes down. The days are too early yet to formulate an opinion based on Walthers actual marketing plans. It hasn't been seen yet.
A good move by Walthers? Handled properly, you bet! Good for hobbiest's? We'll have to wait and see!!

[grayfox1119]

Life-Like was bought for $72M by the "investment group a couple of years ago. Walthers has just purchased the model train division, by taking out a bank loan. I think it is save to assume that the investment company did not take a loss on this deal, meaning that Walthers paid over $72M for Life-Like, which included all their warehouse inventory. That is how they can deliver to Wal-Mart on-time for Christmas.
We don't know the exact figures of this deal because Walthers is a PRIVATELY HELD company....they are not on the stock market ticket. I feel it is a good move by Walthers, because as more hobby shops in rural areas "go under' (sob) , with gas prices where they are, people will not drive 100's of miles to a big city area to a HS, when they can go on-line and order from Walthers who has a great selection of just about everything, and growing even larger with these types of buyouts.
Yes, time will tell as it always does, but on the surface, this looks like a good financial move to me, and, before loan rates go any higher.

[Anonymous]

I was really sorry to hear about Roco, I hope someone will help them out. Since I do not model any particular railroad, I have several Roco steamers and in fact, all my passenger rolling stock are Roco. I found that the Roco models are about the most detailed on the market. I hope they survive.