$$$$$$$$

[Anonymous]

What you are not considering is that,in many cases, it is the "fancy stuff" found on the more higher priced locos that is attracting newbees to the hobby !

They WANT the detail, lights, sound, and DCC !!

Sorry - but I just don't "buy" the cost issue - it would be hard to find a real hobby now-a-days that doesn't have simular costs, be it golf, hunting, fishing, bike riding or whatever - all have "top end" prices for equipment, many of which make MRRing seem CHEAP !!!

[Train 284]

Being only 14, I have to save a lot of money for the hobby. But Bachmann usually has some inexpensive stuff so it works out pretty good.

[selector]

Agreed, George. How much is a quad ATV wth a 500 cc motor? $4K, maybe? Wait!...wife's gonnna come along, right? On her own machine? Now it's $8K.

How much is that P2K Big Boy with QSI, again? Mmmm, gee,...[:-^] And where's the wife?

[robengland]

see http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=38173 for more discussion on this

[BRAKIE]

George,I see with you neither a savvy hunter or fisherman..To hunt all you need is a trusty 16 gage shotgun ($124.95),a box of shells ($8.99),your hunting licenses,a orange vest and you're good to go.
As far as fishing what type are you fishing for?Catfi***he 3rd most popular)Then all you need is 2 medium action reels with medium action rods,a tackle box,several packs of #1,2 and #4 size hooks,sinkers,your fishing licenses, Coleman lanterns and some bait and you're good to go..Bass fishing does not require a 35,000 bass boat, or $12,000 in lures.
There is NO real proof that a $139.00 engine is drawing new hobbiest..If anything they run from the hobby shop with price sticker shock.


I still can't justify the Robber Baron prices.[:(!][}:)]

[Anonymous]

Actually, Larry, I use a 50 cal flintlock and black powder !!!

But my point is that a lot of folk WANT the top end line of any hobby.

Athearn BBs and Trainman will be there for those who want a cheaper entry into the hobby (that maintains at least SOME quality). But if BBs were really in such a demand, Athearn would be making them hand-over-fist and flooding the store shelves with them - but Athearn doesn't see this as a viable market.

It will be interesting to see the fate of the Trainman line ... and if there is REALLY a market for a cheaper and less features line.

[BRAKIE]

George said:It will be interesting to see the fate of the Trainman line ... and if there is REALLY a market for a cheaper and less features line.
=============================================================
George,I fully believe there is from my own observations based on my trips to the hobby shops in Toledo,Columbus and the greater Cleveland area before my heart attack on 29 March and base on my Train Show experience as a attendee and from being a part time dealer and visits to the local clubs.
I also fully believe Atlas would not gamble mega bucks on tooling for the Trainmen Line if there wasn't a market demand for low end engines and cars.The new GP38-2 won't be any better then a Athearn GP38-2 as far as grab irons and like Athearn the modeler will need to add them and I notice will be discounted the same price as the Athearn's 38-2..The cars will be discounted down to $6.99 according to the advanced price lists on my 2 favorite on line dealers.Did you happen to notice Athearn leans more toward their lower price RTR line then the Genesis line?
As far as the P2K GP38-2 well,in todays high cost of living world why buy one when one can buy 2 for a few bucks more or even 3 for the price of 2 P2K GP38-2s?To my mind that only makes good hobby dollar spending when gas is above $2.00 a gallon-its $2.24.9 for regular here and this is a small city..Also I notice the high dollar locomotives and cars is collecting dust while the so called low end engines and cars been moving quite well.
What killed me as a dealer I could no longer get Athearn locomotives and cars because I didn't have a brick and mortar hobby shop and Athearn accounted for 52% of my sales.

George my friend the hobby has always been lead by the masses and I fully believe they have spoken with their billfolds against the higher cost engines and cars.Of course this is impossible but,I would love to see the manufacturers sale figurers on the high end engines and cars..Now the question remains will Kato follow up with their line of low end cars and locomotives??
Time will surely tell.
[:D]

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: George,I see with you neither a savvy hunter or fisherman..To hunt all you need is a trusty 16 gage shotgun ($124.95),a box of shells ($8.99),your hunting licenses,a orange vest and you're good to go.

Yes, but if you go to a gun store, do you see the inexpensive Izmash single-shot shotgun prominently displayed? No, it's on a rack in the back, with the other inexpensive but perfectly suitable firearms! As always, the display case in front has all the sexy Benelli rare-wood custom-engraved 12-gauge shotguns, the Springfield Armory M21s with four-digit price tags, H&K and Glock and Sig autopistols (and maybe some stainless S&W Magnums) and other assorted shiny high-price-point items. If you ask to see a big shiny firearm, the clerks are more than happy to help, telling you all about it and what a great weapon it is. If you ask to see the .22 Marlin or the single-shot 16-gauge, you get a whole different reaction!

Sounds just a bit like the hobby shop--the shiny expensive brass is prominently displayed, and the inexpensive stuff is back in the shelves somewhere. This principle appears in stores all over--if you go to the supermarket, it's easy to find the most overpriced items--they're on the end caps, usually with a sign reading BIG SALE!!! above them--the best-priced food items are always buried in the aisles, above or below eye level.

Go to a car dealership. Do you see the moderately-priced but unexciting economy cars and midsizes prominently displayed in front? No!! What's in front? The gigantic monstro SUVs and full-sized pickups, and the sexy overpriced aerodynamic sports cars! If you tell the sales guy "Can you show me something in a subcompact" does he suddenly have something else to do?

Anyone who thinks such practices are only found at the hobby shop probably doesn't do much shopping!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TA462

If you want to pay for very accurate and detailed trains then you pay for them. I agree with the poster that said a lot of things are made in limited runs. I've got some drop end gondolas on order in ONR colours that are almost 40 bucks a piece. Huge amount of money and way over priced but the thing is only 50 of each road number are being produced. I either pay or I lose out. The Athearn Genesis 60' Gunderson TTX box cars is another example, the demand for these is great but the supply is dried up. Athearn should have made more. Same goes for the Bulkhead flats Athearn made in RTR with the pipe loads, second runs are now out but hard to find. I've been finding that in the hobby shops I go to all the new stuff that comes out is snapped up right away while sitting on the shelves is old stuff that has been there for years. I think thats why newer stuff is more expensive nowdays, less produced and greater demand.

Too expensive. Even if they did make them availible in a greater production run I would not want to purchase them. The best I can do is hope to secure a copy on ebay after about a year when they seem to flood the market on the web.

I appreciate the workmanship and nice quality of the makers' efforts to produce models in demand.

However..

The constant limited runs on everything except metal wheels and kaydee couplers has been going on way to long in HO. Enough I say. I do have one engine on order that probably is already sold out before it left the drawing board. But I see myself purchasing less and less pre-orders "On demand" from the makers while reading increasing volumes of data on new stock being released that requires a deadline for a purchase.

I'll wait for ebay to pick up the slack in the hobby.

[BRAKIE]

Jetrock,Absolutely! Even at gun shows the higher price guns is in the front..No CNN breaking news story here that is the oldest trick in the books..Put your high cost goods in front for eye candy and for suggestive sales.
Wantna make a gun store owner grit his teeth? Ask the simple question how does a $300.00 pump shotgun kill a rabbit or squirrel any better then that $99.00 single shot shotgun..[}:)][;)][:D]
At the next Train Show you attend check out the better deals that can be found UNDER the front of the dealer's table.I got my Atlas/Rocco Alco S4 for $30.00 by doing that plus several other good deals over the years.[:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: If you can't afford these newer models, and an ever increasing number of today's hobbyists can't, then whatever dramatic improvements in quality there might be becomes irrelevant, at least to them. In spite of what some nay sayers contend, ours was a very affordable hobby for decades. That aspect is rapidly vanishing...and many former hobbyist along with it.

CNJ831

Amen brother.

All I can say is that if I compare my W2 from 1990 to last year's, and then compare the prices in a 1990 MRR magazine to today's MSRPs, it's easy to see that my paycheck is not even coming close to keeping up, and that's been especially true over just the last three or four years.

The simple fact of the matter is, I buy a lot less stuff than I used to, because I'm just plain being priced out of the hobby...and I know I'm not the only one.

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GrayLoess

QUOTE: If you can't afford these newer models, and an ever increasing number of today's hobbyists can't, then whatever dramatic improvements in quality there might be becomes irrelevant, at least to them. In spite of what some nay sayers contend, ours was a very affordable hobby for decades. That aspect is rapidly vanishing...and many former hobbyist along with it.

CNJ831

Amen brother.

All I can say is that if I compare my W2 from 1990 to last year's, and then compare the prices in a 1990 MRR magazine to today's MSRPs, it's easy to see that my paycheck is not even coming close to keeping up, and that's been especially true over just the last three or four years.

The simple fact of the matter is, I buy a lot less stuff than I used to, because I'm just plain being priced out of the hobby...and I know I'm not the only one.

Absolutely! That's been my point for the last few years..
As far as W2s I went from a weekly paycheck to a monthly disability retirement check through the Company and Union retirement plan.Did I say I will be buying less? That's a sure win bet.I really don't need anything as I have enough engines and cars to last a life time.However,there are new models I been wanting for years such as the new C&O hack and 70 ton hoppers from Atlas Trainmen Series but,I will buy those cars at discount.

[davekelly]

Retirement plan? What's that?

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Retirement plan? What's that?

Something we had to fight for through negotiations and yes lengthly strikes to get..After all we are giving the company our blood,sweat and tears so they can make millions so the higher ranks can live high on the hog,fly in leer jets and piper cubs and retire at age 55.Nothing wrong with that but,we wanted our fair share for our hard work...[:D]
We finally got retirement at age 60 on our last contract ..Again a 42 day strike was used as well as giving back some other less important things like the first day of hunting season off,your birthday off(no kidding![:0]) and such like free goof off days that can be covered by personal days...

[davekelly]

Brakie,

Yes, I do know what a retirement plan is. My post was semi tongue in cheek reflecting the trend that retirement plans are disappearing throughout the country. I'm glad you were able to get your retirement plan as part of your negotiations.

Of course, even these aren't safe in today's world. I believe one of the airlines was allowed to discontinue it's plan as part of its bankruptcy.

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Brakie,

Yes, I do know what a retirement plan is. My post was semi tongue in cheek reflecting the trend that retirement plans are disappearing throughout the country. I'm glad you were able to get your retirement plan as part of your negotiations.

Of course, even these aren't safe in today's world. I believe one of the airlines was allowed to discontinue it's plan as part of its bankruptcy.

I knew you did my friend but,still wanted to post that..[:p][:D]

To tell the truth the company didn't want to give us retirement at age 60 and then re chanted and wanted far more in return but,we bulk at that idea..One was giving up our medical insurance at retirement and non company related medical retirements and that was what cause the last strike because the rank and file and the company was at logger heads over this issue.I tremble at what the company would do wasn't for the union as far as benefits for the both the white and blue collar workers. The white collar workers are not union but reaps some of the union benefits which IMHO is only fair.[:D]

[davekelly]

Brakie,

An interesting time indeed in which we live.

[robengland]

Brakie is right: the market will speak. manufacturers either produce what the market wants or they go out of business.

if people want $60 crap plastic locos like we used to put up with, someone will make them.