$$$$$$$$

[robengland]

Brakie is right: the market will speak. manufacturers either produce what the market wants or they go out of business.

if people want $60 crap plastic locos like we used to put up with, someone will make them.

[davekelly]

Brakie,

An interesting time indeed in which we live.

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Brakie,

Yes, I do know what a retirement plan is. My post was semi tongue in cheek reflecting the trend that retirement plans are disappearing throughout the country. I'm glad you were able to get your retirement plan as part of your negotiations.

Of course, even these aren't safe in today's world. I believe one of the airlines was allowed to discontinue it's plan as part of its bankruptcy.

I knew you did my friend but,still wanted to post that..[:p][:D]

To tell the truth the company didn't want to give us retirement at age 60 and then re chanted and wanted far more in return but,we bulk at that idea..One was giving up our medical insurance at retirement and non company related medical retirements and that was what cause the last strike because the rank and file and the company was at logger heads over this issue.I tremble at what the company would do wasn't for the union as far as benefits for the both the white and blue collar workers. The white collar workers are not union but reaps some of the union benefits which IMHO is only fair.[:D]

[davekelly]

Brakie,

Yes, I do know what a retirement plan is. My post was semi tongue in cheek reflecting the trend that retirement plans are disappearing throughout the country. I'm glad you were able to get your retirement plan as part of your negotiations.

Of course, even these aren't safe in today's world. I believe one of the airlines was allowed to discontinue it's plan as part of its bankruptcy.

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Retirement plan? What's that?

Something we had to fight for through negotiations and yes lengthly strikes to get..After all we are giving the company our blood,sweat and tears so they can make millions so the higher ranks can live high on the hog,fly in leer jets and piper cubs and retire at age 55.Nothing wrong with that but,we wanted our fair share for our hard work...[:D]
We finally got retirement at age 60 on our last contract ..Again a 42 day strike was used as well as giving back some other less important things like the first day of hunting season off,your birthday off(no kidding![:0]) and such like free goof off days that can be covered by personal days...

[davekelly]

Retirement plan? What's that?

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GrayLoess

QUOTE: If you can't afford these newer models, and an ever increasing number of today's hobbyists can't, then whatever dramatic improvements in quality there might be becomes irrelevant, at least to them. In spite of what some nay sayers contend, ours was a very affordable hobby for decades. That aspect is rapidly vanishing...and many former hobbyist along with it.

CNJ831

Amen brother.

All I can say is that if I compare my W2 from 1990 to last year's, and then compare the prices in a 1990 MRR magazine to today's MSRPs, it's easy to see that my paycheck is not even coming close to keeping up, and that's been especially true over just the last three or four years.

The simple fact of the matter is, I buy a lot less stuff than I used to, because I'm just plain being priced out of the hobby...and I know I'm not the only one.

Absolutely! That's been my point for the last few years..
As far as W2s I went from a weekly paycheck to a monthly disability retirement check through the Company and Union retirement plan.Did I say I will be buying less? That's a sure win bet.I really don't need anything as I have enough engines and cars to last a life time.However,there are new models I been wanting for years such as the new C&O hack and 70 ton hoppers from Atlas Trainmen Series but,I will buy those cars at discount.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: If you can't afford these newer models, and an ever increasing number of today's hobbyists can't, then whatever dramatic improvements in quality there might be becomes irrelevant, at least to them. In spite of what some nay sayers contend, ours was a very affordable hobby for decades. That aspect is rapidly vanishing...and many former hobbyist along with it.

CNJ831

Amen brother.

All I can say is that if I compare my W2 from 1990 to last year's, and then compare the prices in a 1990 MRR magazine to today's MSRPs, it's easy to see that my paycheck is not even coming close to keeping up, and that's been especially true over just the last three or four years.

The simple fact of the matter is, I buy a lot less stuff than I used to, because I'm just plain being priced out of the hobby...and I know I'm not the only one.

[BRAKIE]

Jetrock,Absolutely! Even at gun shows the higher price guns is in the front..No CNN breaking news story here that is the oldest trick in the books..Put your high cost goods in front for eye candy and for suggestive sales.
Wantna make a gun store owner grit his teeth? Ask the simple question how does a $300.00 pump shotgun kill a rabbit or squirrel any better then that $99.00 single shot shotgun..[}:)][;)][:D]
At the next Train Show you attend check out the better deals that can be found UNDER the front of the dealer's table.I got my Atlas/Rocco Alco S4 for $30.00 by doing that plus several other good deals over the years.[:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TA462

If you want to pay for very accurate and detailed trains then you pay for them. I agree with the poster that said a lot of things are made in limited runs. I've got some drop end gondolas on order in ONR colours that are almost 40 bucks a piece. Huge amount of money and way over priced but the thing is only 50 of each road number are being produced. I either pay or I lose out. The Athearn Genesis 60' Gunderson TTX box cars is another example, the demand for these is great but the supply is dried up. Athearn should have made more. Same goes for the Bulkhead flats Athearn made in RTR with the pipe loads, second runs are now out but hard to find. I've been finding that in the hobby shops I go to all the new stuff that comes out is snapped up right away while sitting on the shelves is old stuff that has been there for years. I think thats why newer stuff is more expensive nowdays, less produced and greater demand.

Too expensive. Even if they did make them availible in a greater production run I would not want to purchase them. The best I can do is hope to secure a copy on ebay after about a year when they seem to flood the market on the web.

I appreciate the workmanship and nice quality of the makers' efforts to produce models in demand.

However..

The constant limited runs on everything except metal wheels and kaydee couplers has been going on way to long in HO. Enough I say. I do have one engine on order that probably is already sold out before it left the drawing board. But I see myself purchasing less and less pre-orders "On demand" from the makers while reading increasing volumes of data on new stock being released that requires a deadline for a purchase.

I'll wait for ebay to pick up the slack in the hobby.

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: George,I see with you neither a savvy hunter or fisherman..To hunt all you need is a trusty 16 gage shotgun ($124.95),a box of shells ($8.99),your hunting licenses,a orange vest and you're good to go.

Yes, but if you go to a gun store, do you see the inexpensive Izmash single-shot shotgun prominently displayed? No, it's on a rack in the back, with the other inexpensive but perfectly suitable firearms! As always, the display case in front has all the sexy Benelli rare-wood custom-engraved 12-gauge shotguns, the Springfield Armory M21s with four-digit price tags, H&K and Glock and Sig autopistols (and maybe some stainless S&W Magnums) and other assorted shiny high-price-point items. If you ask to see a big shiny firearm, the clerks are more than happy to help, telling you all about it and what a great weapon it is. If you ask to see the .22 Marlin or the single-shot 16-gauge, you get a whole different reaction!

Sounds just a bit like the hobby shop--the shiny expensive brass is prominently displayed, and the inexpensive stuff is back in the shelves somewhere. This principle appears in stores all over--if you go to the supermarket, it's easy to find the most overpriced items--they're on the end caps, usually with a sign reading BIG SALE!!! above them--the best-priced food items are always buried in the aisles, above or below eye level.

Go to a car dealership. Do you see the moderately-priced but unexciting economy cars and midsizes prominently displayed in front? No!! What's in front? The gigantic monstro SUVs and full-sized pickups, and the sexy overpriced aerodynamic sports cars! If you tell the sales guy "Can you show me something in a subcompact" does he suddenly have something else to do?

Anyone who thinks such practices are only found at the hobby shop probably doesn't do much shopping!

[BRAKIE]

George said:It will be interesting to see the fate of the Trainman line ... and if there is REALLY a market for a cheaper and less features line.
=============================================================
George,I fully believe there is from my own observations based on my trips to the hobby shops in Toledo,Columbus and the greater Cleveland area before my heart attack on 29 March and base on my Train Show experience as a attendee and from being a part time dealer and visits to the local clubs.
I also fully believe Atlas would not gamble mega bucks on tooling for the Trainmen Line if there wasn't a market demand for low end engines and cars.The new GP38-2 won't be any better then a Athearn GP38-2 as far as grab irons and like Athearn the modeler will need to add them and I notice will be discounted the same price as the Athearn's 38-2..The cars will be discounted down to $6.99 according to the advanced price lists on my 2 favorite on line dealers.Did you happen to notice Athearn leans more toward their lower price RTR line then the Genesis line?
As far as the P2K GP38-2 well,in todays high cost of living world why buy one when one can buy 2 for a few bucks more or even 3 for the price of 2 P2K GP38-2s?To my mind that only makes good hobby dollar spending when gas is above $2.00 a gallon-its $2.24.9 for regular here and this is a small city..Also I notice the high dollar locomotives and cars is collecting dust while the so called low end engines and cars been moving quite well.
What killed me as a dealer I could no longer get Athearn locomotives and cars because I didn't have a brick and mortar hobby shop and Athearn accounted for 52% of my sales.

George my friend the hobby has always been lead by the masses and I fully believe they have spoken with their billfolds against the higher cost engines and cars.Of course this is impossible but,I would love to see the manufacturers sale figurers on the high end engines and cars..Now the question remains will Kato follow up with their line of low end cars and locomotives??
Time will surely tell.
[:D]

[Anonymous]

Actually, Larry, I use a 50 cal flintlock and black powder !!!

But my point is that a lot of folk WANT the top end line of any hobby.

Athearn BBs and Trainman will be there for those who want a cheaper entry into the hobby (that maintains at least SOME quality). But if BBs were really in such a demand, Athearn would be making them hand-over-fist and flooding the store shelves with them - but Athearn doesn't see this as a viable market.

It will be interesting to see the fate of the Trainman line ... and if there is REALLY a market for a cheaper and less features line.

[BRAKIE]

George,I see with you neither a savvy hunter or fisherman..To hunt all you need is a trusty 16 gage shotgun ($124.95),a box of shells ($8.99),your hunting licenses,a orange vest and you're good to go.
As far as fishing what type are you fishing for?Catfi***he 3rd most popular)Then all you need is 2 medium action reels with medium action rods,a tackle box,several packs of #1,2 and #4 size hooks,sinkers,your fishing licenses, Coleman lanterns and some bait and you're good to go..Bass fishing does not require a 35,000 bass boat, or $12,000 in lures.
There is NO real proof that a $139.00 engine is drawing new hobbiest..If anything they run from the hobby shop with price sticker shock.


I still can't justify the Robber Baron prices.[:(!][}:)]

[robengland]

see http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=38173 for more discussion on this

[selector]

Agreed, George. How much is a quad ATV wth a 500 cc motor? $4K, maybe? Wait!...wife's gonnna come along, right? On her own machine? Now it's $8K.

How much is that P2K Big Boy with QSI, again? Mmmm, gee,...[:-^] And where's the wife?

[Train 284]

Being only 14, I have to save a lot of money for the hobby. But Bachmann usually has some inexpensive stuff so it works out pretty good.

[Anonymous]

What you are not considering is that,in many cases, it is the "fancy stuff" found on the more higher priced locos that is attracting newbees to the hobby !

They WANT the detail, lights, sound, and DCC !!

Sorry - but I just don't "buy" the cost issue - it would be hard to find a real hobby now-a-days that doesn't have simular costs, be it golf, hunting, fishing, bike riding or whatever - all have "top end" prices for equipment, many of which make MRRing seem CHEAP !!!

[MisterBeasley]

My first car, purchased in 1968, cost me $2100 brand new. I could fill the tank for under 3 bucks. The tuition at MIT that year was $1900 for the year. And I still had to save a long, long time before I could buy anything new for my trains.

Relative to inflation, things like track have gotten cheaper. Sure, the high-end stuff like sound-equipped locomotives costs a lot. It always did, and it always will. The LHS was never a cheap place to shop, even 40 years ago. The good news is, most of the stuff I bought 40 years ago is still functional, if a bit outdated.

Think of it this way - a round of golf at a premium course is now well over a hundred dollars. Spend that, and what have you got at the end of the day but a sunburn? Put the money into a nice locomotive, treat it well and it will last a lifetime.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dano99a

QUOTE: Originally posted by lesterperry

I have been in this hobby since I was 2 years old I am now 50. But seriously for 15 +- years. It seems to me that the manufacturers are pricing the hobby into the wealthy people only allowed. I used to be able to purchase an Athearn GP unit for $25 and it ran smooth, had lots of power and ran forever. (blue box) Now I don't even think I can find these unless dust covered on back of shelf somewhere. I know about inflation but 400%, come on. Am I looking at this wrong? I don't think I could afford to enter this hobby at todays prices.

Right you are that this hobby is being priced something ridiculous, for example there is an ad in the latest MR that the headlne says "That's a lot of Locomotive for $899.99" Now, granted it's a garden railway engine so it's large but HOLY COW!!! $900 BUCKS?
The Headline should read "That's a lot of locomotive, complete with financing options!" or maybe "Skip your mortgage payment and buy this! You don't need a house anyway if your railroad is outside!"


Cheers!

Hehehe I'm doing largescale, i know what you mean, Luckily for me all my engines were less than $70 (small industrial critters) but if you want a GP9 fork over $200, DASH in large scale, cough up about $350 (thats on the cheap end of the food chain) a GG1? try about $1600 big ones, and finally the new USA trains 4-8-8-4 die cast Big Boy! your first born and about $2200 should do it, also a couple of acres to run it would help[:0][:p]

[davekelly]

Excellent point Tom that I think we oftentimes forget. It's great when a new guy finds this forum and asks questions. Most of the time they are guided to Athearn BB or Proto 1000. But then there is always someone who says "To really enjoy this hobby you should get a good running smooth locomotive like a BLI and a DCC system to fully enjoy what that loco has. Of course don't get a beginner DCC system as you will outgrow it, try one of the radio equipped NCE or the Digitrax Empire Builder." Look at the bashing going on over the Bachmann DCC system. Many folks seem to think if it is a "beginner" item - it is junk. How many posts are here in answer to the "is the Bachmann Spectrum whatever" a good first engine get responses like "Botchmann is junk - bought a bunch in the 70's and they don't run for ____."

While it's easy to point the finger at the manufacturers, dealers, media etc as the enemy, sometime it is accurate to say "we've met the enemy and they are us."

[tstage]

I'll restate it again: You DON'T have to break the bank buying a locomotive. For newbies, we shouldn't expect them to know where to look for a good locomotive...or even good, inexpensive ones. That comes with experience and time.

That's why we should be looking out for the newcomers who show up on the forum EVERY DAY: To help them get off the ground and into the hobby...To give them the tips and helpful hints they need to avaoid getting frustrated...To point them in the direction where to find good product...To get them established so that they, in turn, can help alll those newbies who come behind them. And the cycle goes on....

Tom

[BRAKIE]

Again its voodoo in disguise..How? The Robber Baron MSRP that the manufacturers stick on their products.. Then you have a $139.99 locomotive that is discounted down to $99.00 or less or a $99.00 locomotive discounted down to $64.99 or less.So,you can see the voo doo in the high Robber Baron MSRP.
Then you have those poor souls that cheer on these Robber Baron prices by trying to justify the high MSRP buy saying what wonderful models they are..Some of these same folk then trashes each new product that comes out that doesn't fit their modeling style or because a minor detail is missing that can be easily added or the paint isn't correct according to my trusty book written by a so called expert based on copied and printed pictures.But,still can't justify how these Robber Baron price locomotive can be sold at such discounts if the manufacture sets the Robber Baron prices.And we know the dealer is not loosing money.
So its all Voo Doo in the MSRP.[:(!]

[lesterperry]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey

You fail to notice the vast improvements in the models - an Athearn BB is only middle level quality now days. The better, more expensive, models have far better and more accurate detail and paint, directional lights instead of the "fire in the cab" Athearn BB look, are DCC ready (or come with DCC and/or sound), and have quality drives (if you really think Athearn drives are "smooth", you must not have Katos or Atlas Masters!).

You get what you pay for - and I think I am getting my moneys worth.

I can't argue that you are getting your moneys worth. I have several high end Locos. But what I am talking about is the newbie as they are called. He is thinking about entering the hobby, goes to LHS all that is availible is $150 Athern Genesis or $200 - $300 BL. They for the most part don't have BB and if they do it is hidden in a corner.
If you knew nothing about MRR and was interested in trying it out $50 for loco is easier to handle than $150.
Also I do have Katos, Atlas, BL, Heritage, PK2, ect. But for the beginner any thing that wil actually run consistantly and semi smooth is a winner.

[twhite]

About 80% of my steam roster (and I only run steam) is brass, collected over a 40 year period. One of the reasons for brass, of course, is that the primary road I model (Rio Grande) has very few loco prototypes available in plastic. Over the years, I've found that by careful shopping (train shows, estate sales, swap meets, LHS consignments), I can usually find good brass at relatively affordable prices. Looking back on it, I don't think I've ever paid more for a brass loco than I have my several BLI's, and with a little patient tinkering, my brass runs just as well as the new sound equipped steam from BLI or Genesis (certainly better than the P2K's I've bought).
To answer your question, I think the hobby has gotten more expensive, and yes, I think the ads in the magazines are aiming at the 'higher-end' modeler, however there ARE bargains in motive power and rolling stock still out there, but a lot of times you have to ignore the ads and just start searching.
I notice that you model C&O, which is a favorite eastern railroad of mine, but like my Rio Grande, finding C&O steam that is affordable, is a chancy proposition--except for Rivarossi (2-6-6-6), P2K (2-8-4), Spectrum (4-8-2, 2-6-6-2) and BLI (2-10-4) which are all 'high-end' plastic, your only other option seems to be IHC, which makes a pretty presentable plastic C&O Mountain (runs nice, too). Other than that, you're like me--either kitbash or go with brass. I've had to do a little kit-bashing when a loco I wanted was either unavailable or so far out of my financial reach that I had no other option. One of them, an F-1 2-10-2 worked out pretty well (though I'd hate to have it viewed by a 'rivet-counter').
So there is another option for those of us starved for prototypes--low end locos--steam or diesel-- that run well, and a visit to the super-detail department of your LHS.
And, of course, doing a lot of detective work and a lot of bargaining. It can be done, it just takes a little time and a LOT of patience.
Tom [:D]

[Anonymous]

I think the hobby has gone through the same inflation as everything else. Athearn Genesis are alittle pricey for plastic but all the detail work is done for you and Athearn has always had one of the most accurate models of the F7. The old Athearns may need alittle help running smooth but they can be tinkered with and run pretty well. I actually prefer the old metal sideframe units. Maybe that's because I have yet to buy any of the Genesis units.
P2K's look good and run nice but their detail parts are very fragile. I have some P2K PA's and the plastic is so thin that the bodies have warped.
There are still alot of Stewart F's out there but it looks to me like the newer ones belong in the same category as BB Athearn but with a higher price. They look better but the drive system isn't so great.
Track has become rather ridiculous in price and I have been buying old Tru Scale whenever I can find it. I bought some ME code 83 flextrack and it strikes me as the cheapest made track I've ever had and cost over $1 a foot. It won't even sit flat because of mold nubs on the bottom of the ties.
Most of my rolling stock is old metal or wood and some brass that I bought as kits or built models. Nice clean ones can be $20 or so apiece but as long as I can keep them from rusting, I expect them to continue to rise in value as they are already 50 years old or so. The paint jobs on them are better than most being made today and usually many road numbers were made of each model. The color and graphics are probably as good as anything ever made. Lucky for me, I model the 50's.
When I was a kid, my dad had some rubber band drive Athearns, some old metal Varney locos, etc. I remember looking at brass models that were $80 or so and drooling over them. $80 seemed outrageous. Have you priced a new brass passenger train lately? 4 or 5k for some real nice ones. I have since bought some older brass models at fairly reasonable prices. Good enough for me.
A new car in the 50's and 60's could be bought for under 2k. Now, a nice used car can be 20 to 30k. Things change and it's hard for us older guys to change our old values. We remember working for $1 an hour or mowing a lawn for 25 cents. Makes it hard to shell out $100 for a plastic model even if we can afford it.
Bill

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey

You fail to notice the vast improvements in the models - an Athearn BB is only middle level quality now days. The better, more expensive, models have far better and more accurate detail and paint, directional lights instead of the "fire in the cab" Athearn BB look, are DCC ready (or come with DCC and/or sound), and have quality drives (if you really think Athearn drives are "smooth", you must not have Katos or Atlas Masters!).

You get what you pay for - and I think I am getting my moneys worth.

It's a wonderful lfe, George [:D] but...you're missing Lester's point. If you can't afford these newer models, and an ever increasing number of today's hobbyists can't, then whatever dramatic improvements in quality there might be becomes irrelevant, at least to them. In spite of what some nay sayers contend, ours was a very affordable hobby for decades. That aspect is rapidly vanishing...and many former hobbyist along with it.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

You fail to notice the vast improvements in the models - an Athearn BB is only middle level quality now days. The better, more expensive, models have far better and more accurate detail and paint, directional lights instead of the "fire in the cab" Athearn BB look, are DCC ready (or come with DCC and/or sound), and have quality drives (if you really think Athearn drives are "smooth", you must not have Katos or Atlas Masters!).

You get what you pay for - and I think I am getting my moneys worth.

[Anonymous]

I think the most interesting part of this is exchange rates - stores over here seem very quick to put prices up when the $ is stronger but they take far longer to cut them back when the £ is up. I would agree that prices seem to have gone up, often without a noticable increase in quality - in the past 10 years the price of some locos has doubled but the build quality and detailing is much the same. Interestingly Lifelike seem intent on charging prices not much higher than BB for their P1K locos - my LHS had a bunch of their new RS11s for little more than what I paid for a BB SD9 a couple of years ago, and the higher price was more than justified by the extra detailing and lighting (would cost more to buy the parts and upgrade a BB loco). Compared to the prices for some UK market locos the US brands are still inexpensive - list price on some of Bachmann's big steamers is over $200, you won't find much below £80 new even at discounters. That $900 large scale loco sounds pretty much the standard for big locos in that scale - RhB electrics go for between £400 and £800 ($800 and $1600). I regard this as expensive but reasonable value considering they have a useful life of over 20 years assuming no accidents or damage and all proper maintainance is done. However, it doesn't have to be that expensive - a start set will set you back far less and if you're interested in traditional narrow gauge lines (as opposed to the Swiss metre gauge) your most expensive loco will probably be around the $400 area for a "pride of the line" big tank loco. The same goes in HO - building and stocking something like the "Turtle Creek" will not cost you a horrendous sum while building a large basement layout will cost more. I think it's still possible to build a good layout on a budget.