MRR Snobs

[brothaslide]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Just because a person is overly committed to the hobby does not make them a snob. I'm sure I am seen as over committed by some and under committed by others. It depends on where you stand on the spectrum. A snob, in my opinion, is one that feels everyone should do things their way as it is the only way to do it. Thus an "overly committed" person can be a snob as can the "underly committed person." As an example: These are snobs: "If you were really a MRR you'd use XYZ locos with sound decoders." These are also snobs: "I don't have as much time as you to spend on the hobby as you don't have as many really important things that need to get done." A non-snob? The guy that has spent 2000 hours scratchbuilding a totally accurate HO 2-8-2 locomotive down to individual bolt heads that visits your layout spies the Atlas structure kit you just finished and placed on the layout and says "hey - you added a coal mine - cool!"

Dave, I have to agree with you. When I said "overly committed" I wasn't refering to time spent on the hobby but rather attitude. "You must model this way or that or you're not a true model railroader!" "All we do is talk about trains and nothing else!" Just look at how some people respond to off-topic posts here on the forum. So we are in aggrement.

However, some people do spend too much time on hobbies at the exclusion of family friends, and their own health. I knew a guy who would go out RC Car racing almost every weekend and would not spend any time with his wife and kids on the weekend. That's over comittment; it's totally selfish and not healthy.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Just because a person is overly committed to the hobby does not make them a snob. I'm sure I am seen as over committed by some and under committed by others. It depends on where you stand on the spectrum. A snob, in my opinion, is one that feels everyone should do things their way as it is the only way to do it. Thus an "overly committed" person can be a snob as can the "underly committed person." As an example: These are snobs: "If you were really a MRR you'd use XYZ locos with sound decoders." These are also snobs: "I don't have as much time as you to spend on the hobby as you don't have as many really important things that need to get done."

Well put.

QUOTE:
A non-snob? The guy that has spent 2000 hours scratchbuilding a totally accurate HO 2-8-2 locomotive down to individual bolt heads that visits your layout spies the Atlas structure kit you just finished and placed on the layout and says "hey - you added a coal mine - cool!"

And offers advice or criticism only when asked to do so, and then starts with..."What I do is...." or " A technique that has worked for me is...", instead of "You should have done it this way..."


Dan

[davekelly]

Just because a person is overly committed to the hobby does not make them a snob. I'm sure I am seen as over committed by some and under committed by others. It depends on where you stand on the spectrum. A snob, in my opinion, is one that feels everyone should do things their way as it is the only way to do it. Thus an "overly committed" person can be a snob as can the "underly committed person." As an example: These are snobs: "If you were really a MRR you'd use XYZ locos with sound decoders." These are also snobs: "I don't have as much time as you to spend on the hobby as you don't have as many really important things that need to get done." A non-snob? The guy that has spent 2000 hours scratchbuilding a totally accurate HO 2-8-2 locomotive down to individual bolt heads that visits your layout spies the Atlas structure kit you just finished and placed on the layout and says "hey - you added a coal mine - cool!"

[brothaslide]

It's interesting to look back at the recent past. Athearn produced models such as the SD45, GP35, etc. which had a scale 6" too wide hood and there were two radiator grills instead of 3 for the SD45. Nobody paid too much attention or cared that much. Today it's much different but I don't think this has resulted in being a snob. I find the snob attitude with people who take this hobby so seriously. You'll always find the overly committed folks in every group. It just seems like this group is growing amongst model railroaders.

[davekelly]

Isn't bashing rivit counters a form of snobbery? I don't consider myself a rivit counter, but have no problems with those that do. If that's what makes them happy that's cool. To say "there are a few people that are rivit counting snobs with more money than sense" or "those that want the most prototypically correct boxcar better stay away from my railroad" is just as bashing as saying "those that run bachmann are running junk."

Just my opinion.

[RMax1]

One of the things I do is look at the polls on this forum. If you take a look the majoriy of the people are middle of the road. They freelance and use prototype as a guide. There are a few people that are rivit counting snobs with more money than sense. Those are a smaller number and a minority. Some of them are a good source of historical information. They are also the kind of people that eat their peas one at a time in left to right order with the proper fork. People you don't really want to hang around all day with and keep your hair. If they are happy, well ok take it with a grain of salt. The cost of this hobby is expensive. Way too much in some cases. There is a limited market out there. Just not that many Model Railroaders to make cost effective. Example look at Railroad book prices. They are out of sight! I splurged a while back and reserved a Proto 2000 UP E8 A/B set. Sound,DCC the whole 9 yards. That is a very rare thing. Most of the time I bargain hunt like a big dog. If you run across the snobs just be polite go uh huh yeah ok that's nice and move on. Otherwise an arguement will develope and arguing with rocket scientist is irratating. Takes dynamite or a cutting torch to be effective.

RMax1

[dknelson]

sometimes Tony Koester has an offputting way of phrasing things. While he acknowledges that there are different valid approaches, he tends to say that those who take a position different than his own simply "inadequately understand" what prototype modeling is. Patronizing is the word for it.
Curiously, he now seems to snear somewhat at freelancing but whenever he has a point to prove he runs a photo of his old -- freelanced! -- layout.
Dave Nelson

[rogerhensley]

"...the bar may be set too high..."

Sorry. Why is there a bar at all? If you want to detail exactly as the prototype, feel free, but don't try to others that they must do as you do. I used to enjoy Tony Koester's column, but now feel that he has 'gone off the deep end' with the notion that everything must be realistic as he sees realism.

I don't think so.

Nit pickers and rivet counters have always been with us, but I see it as being far worse today than it has ever been. I have absolutely no intention of spending $30 to $50US for a boxcar because someone thinks that it better matches a prototype somewhere. Perhaps it does, perhaps not, but if it's THAT important to you, don't come to my railroad.

As for detailing and scratchbuilding, they aren't lost arts but they certainly have become endangered species.

Model as you will and buy it all ready-made if you wish. Enjoy the hobby your way, but don't tell others what they are expected to do. It just drives folks away from starting what is a great hobby.

[ClinchValleySD40]

No, I don't think the attitude is any worse now than ever. The internet gives people access to more and they'll probably see/hear it more, but it's always been there. Some people that consider themselves "experts" like to throw statements like this out to show everyone how much they know.

Main thing to remember - it's a hobby and there is absolutely no right or wrong way to do it as long as you enjoy yourself and have fun.

Do NOT criticize or give advice to anyone unless they ask for it.

[Adelie]

There are snobs everywhere, both inside and outside of the hobby. There are an awful lot of everyday decisions made by people today that are based largely on what somebody else is doing, so they can "one up" them. And we have largely lost the ability to disagree, somebody has to be "wrong," even on the many list of things where there is no definite right or wrong.

In MRR, part of the perception of this may start at the top. Years ago, John Allen, John Armstrong and Linn Wescott were among the leaders of the hobby. They knew their stuff, took their modeling seriously, but also had fun with it. That fun showed up in their layouts and in their writing. There was a definite human side to what they wrote. If one of their articles was the first thing you read entering the hobby, you might feel both overwhelmed and at ease at the same time. The harshest criticisms I remember reading were about poor trackwork and "banging together" more kits than a layout could possibly hold. These were your friends giving you advice and tips.

Imagine coming back to the hobby or coming in the for the first time (maybe with your 8-year-old son, like many of our dads did), and your first exposure today is one of Tony Koester's columns. My guess is that you would not get the "at ease" feeling. You'd probably feel more like you were getting a lecture from your doctor about your bad eating habits than being talked with about a hobby. I'm certain Tony is a great modeler, too. I'm certain he is passionate about his work, and gets a feeling of satisfaction from his many successes. But I'm not sure "fun" enters the picture, at least from what I read in his writing. Some folks are just like that, and maybe Tony is one of them. I don't mean to single him out, but his column comes to mind in this discussion.

In our "Loyal Order of the Yard Goats" lodge called model railroading, there is room for rivet counters, those who will be challenged to their limits by building and maintaining a rough rendition of the Turtle Creek, and every level of perfection and interest in between. I think we have that balance, judging by the conversations I have with people at train shows and the LHS. But, this is a hobby, and it should be fun. If it does not give that impression, recruiting new participants will become more difficult.

Maybe our problem is just that we have the rivet counters at the table by the front door! Whose on the welcoming committee, anyway?
[#welcome][:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly
But if you like running a Conrail 0-6-0 hauling a 36 foot wood box car followed by a couple of modern husky stacks on an oval of snap code 100 track and spend time seeing how fast it will go that's your decision. It's not the way I'd do it - but if it puts a smile on your face - then I would consider you a successful model railroader!! After all - even though we often times forget it - isn't that what it's all about?

Well said Dave. I agree whole heartedly with your entire response, but in particular the final paragraph which I quoted above. At the end of the day, the only person you have to please is yourself. If you like blue mountains and purple sky and running 85' triple stack auto racks on a 0-6-0 Mogul, then knock yourself out. You're not wrong in doing so. You're not accurate in a prototypical sense, but your not wrong.

I think people get to caught up in realism sometimes. Personally I like realism, and am striving for a high quality, realistic looking layout. I don't think wanting to do your best makes you a snob.

That said I think there are times when people get their panties in a bunch over their opinions on what's right and wrong in the hobby. Hopefully the forum readers will look at those answers and take them with a grain of salt. I've heard people on here espousing all sorts of snobbery and then when you actually see pics of their layout it's not exactly "expert" quality work. I knew this guy who used to maintain my mainframe computers at the office years ago. That was a high tech job back then and I knew he made a lot of money. He used to brag about how he drove a BMW. I was impressed. Then I saw the rusted out, 20 years old, bald tired, hunk of junk. Yes it was a BMW, but not the sleek, shiny, chromed out dream machine my mind had lead me to believe it was.

So make yourself happy. Do what you want. Be proud of your work. And always remember...it's a hobby, not brain surgery!

Much Love,
Trevor[:)]

[wp8thsub]

QUOTE: Jetrock sez:

Part of it is more intimidation perceived rather than expressed: I really don't see many posts saying "Your model railroad is NO GOOD if you don't have components X Y and Z", but I think when they read posts from folks who say "I do X Y and Z and my model railroad is cool" they might get intimidated and assume that if you don't do it that way, you aren't a real model railroader.

Jetrock hit one out of the park with this commentary. I've seen flame wars ignite when a beginner asks for advice on whether his idea will work, gets feedback from experienced modelers that it might not, then an anti-"snob" backlash ensues from people who seem to think the advice somehow put the newbie down. Most of the time, the attacks are unwarranted, and speak to a certain insecurity; it relates less to the hobby itself than to a natural human tendency to go on the defensive prematurely.

QUOTE: For example, MRM showcasing pikes with 300 ft of mainline, taking 20 years to build, and needing 10 people to operate is a little absurd. The current assumption that you need a house sized layout to "effectively" model is ludicris. The pervasion of that concept is definately keeping people out of the hobby IMHO.

No offense is intended to the author of the above, but I think this exemplifies the perception gap at work. Big, complicated layouts deserve coverage if they're well executed, and a lot of the modelers who have the ambition to build them also have a similar ambition to pursue other areas of the hobby, such as writing articles and taking photos. It seems natural to me that such big projects will get disproportionate coverage based on the above, and from the fact that a huge layout logically would have a lot more going on that its builder can milk for articles than can a smaller layout (even given that both are of equal quality).

The "current assumption" that you need a huge layout is, in my estimation, a case of perception trumping reality. The hobby press regularly begs for articles on small layouts, and when a nice one shows up in print the magazines usually talk it up as much as they can. Most editorials that mention layout size go out of their way to emphasize that size matters not, yet the perception persists that the magazines advocate big layouts. Seems to me the "pervasion of that concept" comes not from the magazines, but from the average modeler who simply doesn't have the space or money for a basement empire (for the record, I don't have the money for that right now either). If we're of the mind to do so, we can easily look at the layout coverage in MR and assume that coverage somehow equals advocacy.

Look again at what Jetrock wrote, and think how it applies here. Does the publishing of an article on a 30' X 50' layout, mean a.) that a layout any smaller is inferior, or b.) that the guy who built the big layout submitted a feature the magazine decided to use? If you answered a.), you're probably putting too much pressure on yourself to measure up to a standard you think somebody else is setting. Set the bar where YOU want it, and maybe take the chip off your shoulder that's just waiting for the next "dream layout" feature to take aim at it again.

[willy6]

I don't think it's a matter of being a "snob", but it might be a person proud of their accomplishments in a layout they created which allows them "bragging rights".

[jwar]

There are snobs in every field and and activity, try wine tasting for some serious snobbery, The neat thing about knowing a real snob is that you can pick his brain and learn things as hes sure to tell you, if not then hes just another wana be with an attitude, no matter what the subject is. LOL John

[Anonymous]

Welcoming new comers depends on those already there. The two most enjoyable organizations I belonged to included all of interest and never excluded in any manner those without means. The first was a local rose club. The person with the one rose saved from a ditch or purchased at the local supermarket was just as welcome as the fellow with a doctorate in botany, 15 acres of roses, and did such arcane things as cloning. The other was a draft horse club which more properly should have been known as a driving club as all were welcome that were interested in driving carts pulled by animal. This included chickens, dogs, goats, ox, as well as donkey, mule, light horse, and draft horse. Folks who welcome all interested comers will help spread the hobby. Discrimination shuts people out. Leave that to where it make sense such as choir or band. (only those that can carry tune need apply)

[bikerraypa]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BruntonThere seem to be fewer people willing to help out a newcomer without judging them than there used to be. Fortunately, that's still a small percentage of modelers, but it's not as small as it used to be.

I deal with the snobbery by just ignoring the snobs. It works great.

Right you are, Brunton. But as far as snobbery and looking down one's nose at the beginners and the less-prototypical, it's not just model railroading. Or rather, it doesn't originate in model railroading, it has simply infected MRR as it has infected other hobbies.

I also fly RC airplanes, and that hobby is really starting to take on an "us against them" mentality. On the one hand, you have the traditional "master modeler" types who believe that anything not scratchbuilt is junk and worthy only of derision. These are the guys who would rather moan and gna***eeth over "the sorry state of the hobby" than actually help someone get involved, or participate in something different. So, the new guys, unable to find guidance about kit building, glow engines, etc, gravitate towards electrics (guys like me). Now, after a few years of this system, electrics are becoming as big a part of the hobby as glow flight, and also becoming every bit as powerful and prototypical.

The reaction from the traditionalists, rather than complimenting the advances made by the "other" side of the hobby, is to deride the electric flyers for flying independently, without a club or instructor, and for doing things on their own. Meanwhile, these are the same people who refused to help the new guys in the first place, and drove them from the clubs and into situations where the only way to enjoy the hobby was independently. Go figure.

I see some of that in MRR, but not as much as in the RC world. For the most part, I've found MRRs to be great folks, always willing to help a new guy and never rushing to deride a layout of which someone else is proud.

Sure, there are blowhards and in-your-face prototypers and "mine is bigger than yours" mentalities in every hobby . And there are some people who just suck. But those folks are very few and very far in between. Most MRRs, like most RCers, are great folks. The bad ones just tend to stick out.

Next time you lament the seemingly-large and ever-expanding rift among model railroaders, just be glad you don't fly RC airplanes. Then you'll feel better. [:D]


Ray out

[davekelly]

wrumbel,
Isn't it interesting to see how our perception and interests change over time?

[wrumbel]

This is my first post. I've been out of the hobby since 1986. I know this since i wrapped a lot to stuff in newspapers. I had lost intrest when Mr was doing alot of CTC 16 articles. The hobby seemed to be getting too out of reach. Well in January of this year I started to read the magazines again. I had drawn a layout plan for a 12 x 20 room in 1986. When I showed it to a non railroader he said it looked too complicated and would take forever to build. Well now I'm into DCC and running trains on a 1 x 6 shelf and having fun. I guess it's all in what makes us happy.

Wayne

[Pruitt]

I agree, Duce.

Higher standards are more easily achieved than in the past, but in the 35 years or so I've been messing with model trains, I've never seen more people looking down their noses at those who are happy without engaging in what one might call the more sophisticated aspects of the hobby than I see now.

Model magazines are responsible for part of this - look at an MR from the 1950s and one from the last year or two. Today's better layouts are farther from the mainstream, and certainly from the beginners, than they were in past times. Result - the magazines appear more elitist without meaning to do so.

And take a look at the NMRAs Achievement program. (I may get stomped for treading here, but remember I'm not trying to attack the program). This program is there to help modelers enhance their own skills by laying out a set of requirements which, when met, gives an Achievement Award to the modeler. Accumulate enough of these and you win the title "Master Model Railroader." A good program, and an effective one for those who desire to pursue the citations. There is the unfortunate, unintended, and probably unavoidable intimidation effect that goes along with it, however. A relative novice modeler who happens to be introduced to "Joe Blow, an NMRA Master Model Railroader" might very well feel a bit unworthy at that point.

There seem to be fewer people willing to help out a newcomer without judging them than there used to be. Fortunately, that's still a small percentage of modelers, but it's not as small as it used to be.

I deal with the snobbery by just ignoring the snobs. It works great.

[Anonymous]

It is theraputic to build something new. A new building; a new siding; a new little pile of trackside junk. I like to read what Tony K has to say about building a layout. He holds the bar high. I try and make my layout look like a circa 1958 scene and endevour to get the details right. Mr K has a high degree of skill and lots of experience and I'm very happy he shares his knowledge. My layout is protypical in era but not location. It satisfies my fantasies and old memories of the late '50s. I am a newbie in modelling HO having done it for only 3 yrs and I am nearing retirement time. I take critiques as encouragement not as deterement. As a request, can anyone direct me to a www that shows detailed stockyard or any other late steam era yard details. d

[selector]

Duce, you are right, some of us are snobs because of our personality. But, as others point out, some of that is merely perception, and it lies within the limited frame of reference of those who have a limited interest or exposure to the hobby, and that is often an observer (or, what a snob would characterize as a 'dilettante').

Another analogy: Richard Petty is an affable person, but he is in the elite of his vocation. Some rail modelers are also elitist, but more because of their devotion and compulsion, and not so much because they are jerks, for want of a better word. And, who puts them there? We do, the dilettantes. We are the ones who fawn over them when we meet them, gush here on line over their mighty works, and so-on. We set the standard for what is difficult, when they merely achieve it.

Some people get a thrill just sitting in a NASCAR racer and doing the imagining, and others do the 'doing'. Life is ever thus.

Dave, I hear you. I remember my soccer coach ar college in the early 70's telling me that he was on the floor behind the seat in front of him because he found the shower scene in Hitchcock's "Psycho" so frightening. Sheeeeessshh!!

[Duce]

I know Im just a newbie to MRR. I thing I might have to disagree with some of you guys on this.

You cant blame the advances in technology or the changes to the hobby for being a "Snobb". That is something that is within the person. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in you layout. But making someone feel less because they dont or cant run all the bells and whistles is just wrong.

Just my thoughts

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: For example, MRM showcasing pikes with 300 ft of mainline, taking 20 years to build, and needing 10 people to operate is a little absurd. The current assumption that you need a house sized layout to "effectively" model is ludicrous. The pervasiveness of that concept is definately keeping people out of the hobby IMHO.

There are reasons why those big layouts are in the magazines--largely the same reason that you normally read about major-league players in Sports Illustrated, not the local Little League teams. But I have noted quite a few small layouts in recent issues of MR, as well as in Model Railroad Planning--little shelf layouts, medium-sized 4x8s, and other compact layouts are featured and plans are shown. The big, impressive layouts get page space because they ARE, by and large, big and impressive--but a good photographer can make a 1x3 shelf layout look gigantic.

QUOTE: What's the best way to model the real world? Make the model big enough to actually model the prototype at some particular scale.

Or, model portions of the real world that are small enough to model effectively. You can't build an EXACT model of Horseshoe Curve on a 4x8 in HO, but you could get a fair representation of it. As SpaceMouse mentioned earlier, it certainly LOOKED like 18" radius to him! Would such a model be exact? No. But it could look pretty good with a few simple modeler's tricks.

[tsasala]

Having been out of the hobby for a large number of years, and just recently getting back into it, the landscape has changed considerably (no pun intended). I don't think the change is due to technology directly. I think davekelly has it right - it's a lot easier to model accurately today than it was 20 years ago. When I was 12, Hydrocol was hard to come by (at least for me), so I had to make do with what I had (and it showed). Hopefully my latest reincarnation will look better. I know it will operate better, as I have far more resources to dedicate to better locos, better power systems, etc..

Availability alone does not dismiss the snob factor though. Anyone insisting that I can't put a steam loco on my modern period layout needs to take a time out. People need to realize that this IS a hobby and it IS meant for enjoyment. Moreover, each person gets enjoyment for different reasons.

I personnally have little interest in modeling a prototype to the n-th detail. I do, however, want to make sure my pike has elements are that are not too far out of reality. Why? Probably because I don't want other MRR's looking at my pike say and saying "WTF is that?" ;)

I believe anyone who insists you need BLI consist to "make" your pike run "properly" do a larger disservice to the hobby than anything they can contribute. Everyone should be encouraged, regardless of ability, resources, or size.

For example, MRM showcasing pikes with 300 ft of mainline, taking 20 years to build, and needing 10 people to operate is a little absurd. The current assumption that you need a house sized layout to "effectively" model is ludicris. The pervasion of that concept is definately keeping people out of the hobby IMHO. However, it is the natural evolution of the hobby. What is model railroading? It is modeling the real world. What's the best way to model the real world? Make the model big enough to actually model the prototype at some particular scale. You just can't model horseshoe curve on a 4x8 sheet to plywood (well, not in HO anyway).

One final point - generally speaking, MRRs as a group seem to be far more friendly, welcoming, and accepting that most other groups I've been involved with. In that regard, there is little snobbish-ness.

Jetrock's on the money. As long as your think you're cool, you will be ;)

0.02.

[nickinwestwales]

If it works for you,it works-end of story.........

[davekelly]

Ted,

Hit the nail right on the head!

verse,

So very true. Glad to see you didn't stay the kid looking in forever. We should always remember that if you wait and wait and wait - it might be too late.

selector,

Great analogy using Star Wars. I don't know if you ever saw the original King Kong movie - but when I first saw it (late 70's/early 80's) I practically laughed through the whole thing. My dad said when he first saw it he couldn't sleep for a week. Time does change things.

[selector]

I can see how those who have been away from the hobby for a while might find that they are much further (ugh) 'behind' than they ever thought when they try to get back into it ,and quickly see how much their 15-20 year-old world-view is sadly, even frighteningly, dated.

The new Star Wars Movie (no, haven't yet) must be a real eye-bugger, making the first one of 1979/80 nearly laughable. Who wouldn't pan the first one if it were released as the latest blockbuster today?

Not so much snobbery, as later in time. "Later' meaning 'changed'.

[Anonymous]

I must admit that I almost fell victim to this ‘snobbery’. I'm a toddler to the physical side of this hobby even though I've known and loved it from as far as I can remember (some twenty odd years).
Initially I felt that if a loco is not of a particular brand that it's a waste of time and money so I'll just hold out until I could afford a better one. Well guess what? Years went by and I was like the kid on the outside looking in. Eventually I got tired of waiting and I got one from tyco, I enjoyed every second running it, especially at christmas when visitors came over.
Age took its toll and then the problems kicked in, instantly I became a repair man (through hours and hours of anguish of course) but in the end I came to understand what makes this little engine tick and today I don't have to send off none of my engines to be fixed. I still have this ‘little-ho-Geep’ even though I now model in n-scale (due to limited space). Maybe if I had succumbed to the notion, I wouldn't have figured out the true reason why I love Model RRing, and remained he kid on the outside looking in.

[Anonymous]

There is always a level of vehemence (forceful passion) among a "strata" of just about any endeavor. Some of you may have seen this in a irate music conductor when things aren't perfect. Maybe a tirade coming from a drama coach over "mouthed" lines? How about a head chef when an apprentice forgot the marinade? Even impatient admonitions echoing-off the hallowed halls of worship may be heard from time to time. Any where there is "passion," there will be "impatients". All of that seems terribly out of place in the context of a hobby that, by definition, is an enjoyable "pass time."

Then there is the over-the-top "compulsive consumer," who can't imagine why everyone hasn't bought the latest "touted" gee-gah for whatever purpose. The perfection that so many desire has gone from attained "perfection" to acquired 'perfection'. The Artisans of yore are now the Patrons of today. So, what ever road you choose to take, realize that all "endeavors" are elected by the individual, right? And, we should all respect the rights of the "individual" which is definately a two way road.

[Jetrock]

Part of the change in attitude is, perhaps, due to technology. Other hobbies have changed even more radically--thirty years ago, "computer games" meant either a text-based adventure game on a primitive home PC or a blocky "Pong" game, replaced by the then-mindblowing 4-bit graphics of the Atari 2600. Compare ADVENT.EXE to DOOM 3 and you'll see how far computer games have come in that time--then the difference in model railroading doesn't seem so great!

Part of it is more intimidation perceived rather than expressed: I really don't see many posts saying "Your model railroad is NO GOOD if you don't have components X Y and Z", but I think when they read posts from folks who say "I do X Y and Z and my model railroad is cool" they might get intimidated and assume that if you don't do it that way, you aren't a real model railroader.

Another factor is, perhaps, frustration at the different ways that people perceive hobbies. I'm not an old, old hobbyist but I have been around long enough to be very familiar with the idea of making things from scratch.

When someone comes to the forum and asks for a cheap, easy way to achieve spectacular results, very often there isn't an answer--either you can spend a lot of money, do a lot of work, or have a less-spectacular layout.

There's nothing wrong with spending money, doing work or having a less-spectacular layout--but for folks who want everything NOW, it can be a hard pill to swallow to encounter a hobby based on ideas like craftsmanship and attention to detail.

People are becoming more used to paying people to do stuff for their entertainment than doing it themselves--people these days watch sports instead of playing them, listen to music instead of making their own, etcetera. Craft-based hobbies are somewhat still around, but they aren't as widespread or as popular. People have learned to assume that only Special People can do these things. If you can't hit baseballs like Mark McGwire, if you can't play guitar like Eddie Van Halen, why even bother picking up a baseball bat or a guitar? In terms of model railroading, maybe people figure if they can't build scenery like John Allen, why not just watch TV instead?

The answer, of course, is that playing baseball, or playing guitar, or playing with trains, can still be a lot of fun even if you're not particularly good at it. And in time, you can get better at it. But a lot of folks aren't used to the idea of taking that time.

Maybe a few folks get intimidated by these ideas. And maybe model railroading just isn't for them. But we also get a lot of new folks talking about how nice and friendly these forums are--in abundance.