MRR Snobs

[davekelly]

tpaulsen,

If you're smiling doing things your way and you like seeing others smile when they do things their way (and it is pretty obvious that you fit both descriptions) you sound like a non-snob model railroader to me!

[hminky]

There is also the other snobbery. Correcting one of the resident Poobah's on a forum and being ignored by that group from that point on. Facts always being irrelevant to a discussion.

Just a thought
Harold

[railroadyoshi]

Evolution
just a thought

[Anonymous]

Granted, there are indeed MR snobs, but there is a larger group of us that can be refered to as MR slobs. Mr Koester has always tended to be on the extreme end of detail, realistic operation, duplicating the real thing and the like. If you follow his work you will find he is quite accomplished and very good at what he does. Others of us simply enjoy the hobby. I model a railroad that supposedly links the Camas Prairie (UP, NP) with the Milwaukee Road. My operating rules come from the Chicago & Northwestern, My locomotives represent a leased fleet (anything I want to run). The car roster does reflect the markings of the type cars that would appear in the part of the country I model, but the cars are not all super detailed, exact models of a given prototype. I still run a few old Varney paper sided cars, some old metal Globe cars, some Silver Streak, some Central Valley, even some old Athearn (both metal and plastic). The bulk of my car fleet has been rebuilt asdetail specific freight cars along with some high end resin kits. My layout is not an absolute representation of any real railroad, but it looks like a railroad to me. It operates like the real boys do including following all the rules of operation put forth in the Chicago & Northwestern operating handbook. It is good enough for me and those that come to help operate it. The overall effect is pleasing to me, no other opinion matters. My train control is the forerunner of the current DCC stuff, it is the CTC-16e system described in a series of how-to articles in MR some years back. I have added aftermarket sound to most of my locomotives just because I like the noise. Those that want to spend the big bucks on the very top of the line high zoot equipment have the absolute right, those of us that rebuild old stuff, junk kits and the like, have the right as well. It is a hobby! There is no absolutely right way to approach our hobby with one exception, you must (MUST!) have fun. Time to put the soap box away.

Steam will rise like the Fenix from the ashes, diesels will be put into city parks.

Tom

[oleirish]

[:)]This hobby is no different than any other hobby(train,planes,boats)There are those who are never happy,those who have lots of money,those like me who get by with what we can afford,[:)]Snobbs yup we got them but you find them everyware[^]
OLE'IRISH

[davekelly]

So I guess we have one vote for "yes there are folks that put down the way others desire to pursue the hobby because they are not pursuing it in the correct way."

[Anonymous]

I was in this hobby for 31 years.Even worked at a few hobbyshops. Now I have stopped with just about everything dealing with it. It seems that there are too many people who are lazy that they cant or dont want to put something together,or make something using their imagination,and hands,let alone what nature may have for a person to use.Now its all about ready to run products,DCC stuff,and who knows what else.It use to be fun "modeling" anything and everything associated with the hobby,though now it isnt that way anymore. Yes times have changed and that,but who the hell wants a RTR locomotive that has stuff on it,or in it,that someone else may NOT want . Why should I pay $100.00 for something that I feel is not even worth it.I've said this time and time again the key word is "modeling",and this IS what the hobby is suppose to be about.

[Anonymous]

I know I'm not the friendlist on the forum & I'm sorry. Have a great night .

[ksax73]

I think valid points are made in the initial post. I personally never go by the standards that are set. I simply go by what I see and decide just how closely I would like to match the prototype. This is basically determined by my time, resources and money.

If it were up to me, one would not be able to tell the difference between the prototype and my layout but that's not the case now so I work with what I have.

My advice to beginners is to go at your own pace and constantly educate yourself. Before you know it, you'll be up to those "high standards" that are set.

[jacon12]

Not around here, none that I've encountered at any rate. I'm probably the newest newbie of them all, having just started my first layout about a month or two ago, so you know I've got a million and one questions. Each one has been patiently answered, sometimes with brevity, other times with long, detailed explanations. You know, it takes a lot for experienced people to give of themselves day after day, sometimes repeating the same answers over and over. But, around here they do it. Not the same ones ALL the time, I think ya'll swap out turns or something.
My other hobby/vocation has been photography and in the last few years digital photography in particular. Now depending on the forum you go to (some very good, others bad) you can run into some REAL snobs in that hobby. Camera bodies can cost over $4'000.00, over a thousand is quite common. A first class 300mm lens will set you back another Three grand. A really good carbon fiber tripod with ball head.. oh.. $300 to $500. And some of these people buy the newest body everytime one comes out.. like once a year. But, then there are some absolutely great people in it that know its not the equipment its the person using it and thankfully they way outnumber the snobs. So, it's everywhere, cars motorcycles boats planes and trains. This place, come to think of it is really special in its lack of them.
Jarrell

[Anonymous]

A lot of water has passed beneath the bridge since I first started to read MRR magazines and arm chair my lay out. The cost of the hobby is small in terms of the amount of enjoyment it provides, and how well you can budget toward your goal. I think John Allen equated the cost of his layout, motive power and rolling stock as close to that of a luxury automobile. He however spread that cost over a number of years, and a tail fin, bumper, door handle at a time.
The cost of anything worth while is always high, or it would worthless, Those who value what you have done may never let you know, and those who criticize do so for one of two reasons: 1) they offer constructive criticism, or 2) it is Thursday and you are their victim of choice. Learn from the first and put on the armor to stave off the second.
I am concerned with is the availability of inexpensive kits, both rolling stock and motive power, and the advent of the "perfect" RTR models. Perhaps I did not provide enough of a market for those items to be continued. Long live "Dino", the 0-4-0 Yard Goat from John Allen's whimsy. Didn't the Gorre start out as a 4X6 layout?

[scubaterry]

Well I will wade in here. I have been in the hobby for less than two years and it has been the most relaxing, self rewarding , FUN thing I have dedicated myself to in many years. My detail work leaves allot to be desired as my hands are as big as baseball mitts and my eyes are shot. But if someone wants to critique my work thats ok I have allot to learn. I need and appreciate constructive feedback. If that person is overly critical or snobby well then I doubt I would have another conversation with that individual. I love a challange and when I complete one of my "Bashes" I look at it fondly ugly or not because I built it myself. Personally I have not encountered any snobs since I started frequenting this forum in December of last year. I doubt I will meet any in person as I am the only MRR in the Florida Keys area. As a matter of fact I have had nothing less than very friendly, helpful responses to my questions even the very basic ones. I look forward to finishing up this tour down here so we can move back up to N FLorida and actually meet other MRR.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by whitman500

I've been back in the hobby now for about 6 months and am a fairly regular reader of these forums. One topic that keeps popping up is whether the hobby has gotten more expensive and, if so, whether this is driving people away.

One thought I have had is that many people are turned off from the hobby because of what they view as the impossible standards that the community seems to have set. I've detected in many places an attitude that says "a layout must have DCC, sound, be prototypically accurate with all the right equipment, buildings, etc."

A question I would pose to those who have been involved in the hobby longer than I have is whether this attitude has gotten worse over time. For example, I recently bought two books on realistic model railroad design: one by John Armstrong (originally published in ~1960) and one by Tony Koester (published recently). I was struck by how different their attitudes were. Armstrong had a very relaxed view of how realistic your layout had to be while Koester repeatedly disparaged layouts that didn't live up to a certain high standard of quality/accuracy.

. Thoughts?

Both men you talked about have done a lot for the hobby, but this is a hobby and not a living to us. If you enjoy your layout, large or small, simple or accurate, that is your business. I enjoy have a test track and running on a club now and then. I have never seen a layout that is perfect, and don't expect to soon.

Just enjoy the whole thing about being able to create an illusion that you can never see in One to One scale.

[Kurn]

Sure,we're snobs.Like any microcosm of society.I model a small unnamed city near Pittsburgh served by the B&O in 1957.To do anything else would be unthinkable.I don't have the latest gadgets or even rolling stock.I kitbash and approximate.But if anyone were to put down my layout they would be shown the door.I've been to train shows where if you don't have the latest wizardry you are somehow inferior........but then there are also those old guys that can't stand anything newer than a horn hook coupler.And the Lionel people...and the brass guys.All in all though,its better than my other hobby,motorcycles.REALLY some snobs there.

[a8wprl]

I know what you mean. It does not matter what hobby you have, there are always those who do it more and better. It seems to be a prerequisite to criticise someone elses work. I have modeled remote airplanes, remote ships, stactic airlanes, static ships, and now I am doing HO guage trains. I have discovered it is not important what anyone else does or thinks about my work. What is important is whether or not I am satisfied with the result. I model for the enjoyment not to set a standard. I have seen what I considered inferior modeling but the modeler never knew what I thought because he was doing his best. I can only hope others would feel the same about my work. Not everyone has the money or time to invest to make sure his model and/or layout is right on. To those that do, I say bravo, but don't look down on those that don't. Don't overlook them either. Maybe I am missing the point of your comments, I don't know. Do your modeling for yourself in the way you want to, and with the resources you have. Happy railroading.
Ray

[tsasala]

A local club near me recently had an open house (which they do every month). I listened intently to the members talk about the GP this, SD that, and all the 2-8-2 thingys (<- illustrative examples). However, what I found most interesting was the Thomas The Tank Engine scooting around the track, attracting the attention of all the 3,4,5 year olds in the crowd (and some of the adults). Clearly the club understands that operations has to be mixed with fun. I look forward to more interaction with them in the future.

I may not be interested in operations now, but as Bob points out, that's likely to change over time. It's only snobbery if you look down upon someone who just wants to watch the trains go around.

[MAbruce]

I think we've beated the "snob" out of this topic. [swg]

[cmrproducts]

Being a SNOB or having the appearance of being a Snob can come in many ways.

The Nube is overwhelmed when visiting a Club or a home layout that has been around for a few years.

This comes from the Nube’s newness to the hobby and relative lack of experience. I have been model railroading since 1978. I had the traditional Christmas train sets way back but in ’78 I wanted to start building a real layout. I visited as many Clubs and layouts as I could but I felt that they were way too advanced for me. I did finally join a club and I found that my ideas were as good as any of the other members. Although I believe my club was unique in this respect as we all got along in the social aspect and the (I’m better than you) never showed.

Now 20 years later I still am a member of the Club and we welcome Nube’s. Most of the membership, also have home layouts that are well along. We usually try and introduce the Nube’s to all of the home layouts. This is to show them as many different ways of doing things and to also show them that you can build any size of layout and have fun.

Now my layout is one of the larger layouts of the group and I probably overwhelm the Nube’s when they see this layout. But I also explain that I also started out with a 4 x 8 and have progressed up through a 9 by 12 room and now am working on a 25 x 75 room full.

Does that make me a snob just because I have this large of a layout? I hope not! It is just that I felt that I needed this big of a challenge! After building 20 plus layouts over the years at the Club and helping other members build theirs I felt that building a large layout, mostly by myself, would be the way to keep me challenged and it does!

But the members of our group also try and emphasize that building a layout, any size, is an important way to learn modeling skills.

But it seems that once the Nube has built his first layout (4 x 8) he soon looses interest. And this is where we seem to lose a lot of our club members as they find running around in a circle not much fun after a while. Some build another layout and others just move on to other interests. The club members have started operations on a number of their home layouts and this has helped the Nube’s find out what model railroading is all about. Some modelers feel that this might be a Snobbi***hing, as they feel I do not want to learn a bunch of rules just to run a train.

With operations the layout starts to concentrate on a specific era, year or railroad. Now the Nube’s may feel that this is Snobbery as there is no room to run anything they want. Some modelers can carry this to an extreme. Although the members of our group have not yet had this happen it may as we move further down the modeling experience.

And the work Nube is defined as those modelers that may have been onto the hobby for less than 5 years, or only have a passing interest in the hobby.

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[JohnT14808]

One thing I have discovered about people who may be classified as snobs, is that nothing that I can say will probably change their mind or attitude. Like SpaceMouse, I just kinda sit back and keep my trap shut and listen.....I learn more that way.

[jimrice4449]

There's a lot of talk lately, in the political field, about "The Big Tent" (or its absence). Let's apply it to MRRing. I have something approaching awe for somebody who wants to model the Yosemite Valley RR as it appeared on a particular June day in 1940 or 30 miles of the NKP St. Louis line in 1950 or the SP/ATSF line from Bakersield to Tehachapi. We're fortunate in having the resources available that we can do that if we choose. The "snobbery" problem arises when we apply our own (or THEY apply THEIR own) criteria of what's desirable to somebody else's work.
Case in point. At the present time on the psgr portion of my RR there sits on the staging tracks, a 1950 Golden State, and a 1937 Denver Zephyr. In the depot there is a 6 car train of Southern heavywieghts with an Ms-2 Mountain on the head end and a 1942 Afternoon Hiawatha train w/o an engine. There are those who, applying THEIR criteria would be appoplectic at this mix of geography and eras. By my criteria everything's cool since I want (among other critera) to model every non-commuter train I've ever ridden on and I've ridden on three of those trains. (The other one's there because it's just so purdy...another criterion).
Basically each of us is the best judge of what constitutes a "good" model railroad.
As for Model Railroader being too "basic", let's not forget that, at any given time, there are those of us who"ve just started and other old phartz like me that started in the forties with a Varney box car kit w/ embossed paper sides. The magazine has to have appeal to beginners or before long there won't be any old phartz like me or any manufacurers supplying goodies for a no longer existing MRR market

[davekelly]

selector,

You have nothing to worry about as do 99.999999999999 percent of the folks on this forum. Sometimes we get passionate and type something without thinking and hit the "enter" button. Most often the post is later edited or a "I didn't mean it to sound the way it did" is posted later. Let's all have fun!!

[selector]

I agree with you largely, Tom. I must say that I find the 'regulars' on these forums to be gentle, genial, and generous. You can see clearly that their personalities and experience vary by their tone and syntax, but virtually everyone I have had the pleasure of dealing with has been respectful and helpful. May it always be thus. [:)][tup]

Oh, and if I have been less so, I invite anyone to send me an e-mail privately and let me know. I can stand correction or guidance, and will respect tremendously any person who has the courage to contact me and tell me that I have been a snob, snooty, patronizing, and so on. I say this with sincerity because this forum, and you fine people, are important to me, and I would gladly accept any criticism in order to keep in good standing.

[Anonymous]

I wiil tell you of my limitations, and one of them is artistic ablitity which is very poor. I model present day and have couple of cars that are out of place, and engines lacking the finer details. If some one snobbs my layout, I do not care, I get alot of ENJOYMENT and I bulit it with my own two hands.

[tsasala]

In some cases there is a "right" way to do things; however, there are very few instances where there is only 1 way to do something. If you can't accept alternate approaches along with your own, you have some growing to do as a person.

QUOTE: No offense is intended to the author of the above, but I think this exemplifies the perception gap at work. Big, complicated layouts deserve coverage if they're well executed, and a lot of the modelers who have the ambition to build them also have a similar ambition to pursue other areas of the hobby, such as writing articles and taking photos. It seems natural to me that such big projects will get disproportionate coverage based on the above, and from the fact that a huge layout logically would have a lot more going on that its builder can milk for articles than can a smaller layout (even given that both are of equal quality).

I'm a big boy, I can take it. For me, it's all about balance. I really like looking at the big layouts and they do deserve their coverage. However, I was reading in MR about how one author hand-laid 1800 bricks on a bridge. That's a little intimidating and a little crazy IMHO. That level of super details should be showcased for those who aspire to that level. However, basic track work should also be covered to encourage people to state a layout the "right" way.

Funny, there is another thread about how MR has become too basic. My position is that it is not basic enough *at times*. My other hobby is quite expensive and riddled with snake oil salesman. An extremely popular online magazine, which is dedicated to advanced hobbiest (some border on professionals), started a column on the basics to help encourage people of all skill levels to get involved. In that hobby I have a good deal of experience and consider myself very advanced. However, I like reading the basic articles for refreshers and looking for new trends. However, I also find myself disagreeing with the article and grumbling under my breath about how I would never do it that way. What goes around comes around.

When you boil it all down, it seems that eveyone here is in basic agreement with everyone else. So, where are those snobs ;)

Peace.

-Tom

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by whitman500

I've been back in the hobby now for about 6 months and am a fairly regular reader of these forums. One topic that keeps popping up is whether the hobby has gotten more expensive and, if so, whether this is driving people away.

One thought I have had is that many people are turned off from the hobby because of what they view as the impossible standards that the community seems to have set. I've detected in many places an attitude that says "a layout must have DCC, sound, be prototypically accurate with all the right equipment, buildings, etc."

A question I would pose to those who have been involved in the hobby longer than I have is whether this attitude has gotten worse over time. For example, I recently bought two books on realistic model railroad design: one by John Armstrong (originally published in ~1960) and one by Tony Koester (published recently). I was struck by how different their attitudes were. Armstrong had a very relaxed view of how realistic your layout had to be while Koester repeatedly disparaged layouts that didn't live up to a certain high standard of quality/accuracy.

Anyway, my point is that there has been a lot of handwringing in this forum about the hobby becoming too expensive. However, I think that argument only covers part of the problem. If the standards are too high for the average hobbyist to meet in terms of their resources of time, talent and money, then the hobby won't attract and keep new people. Thoughts?

I've found there are "snobs" with higher standards in almost everything there is anymore... Some of them are that way on purpose while some are that way by nature.

Aside of model railroading, I belong to a cowboy action shooting club, and we have more snobs out there than anywhere I've ever seen. They actually stand around with their noses up in the air waiting for someone to attempt to be friendly with them so they can be rude to that person. They don't like me because I'm a nobody that out shoots the crap out of them-and because my cowboy outfits look good and fit me better than theirs do. I listen in on their conversations and 99.% of the time it's about "what they've got"... They make me sick. They're the same kind of people that have to drive expensive status symbol vehicles and be out in front on the road, live in expensive houses in subdivisions built especially for their kind by their kind. I was told one time that when you have a college degree and make the kind of money that the upper class do, then you have the right to be a snob. I wish I could have slapped the person that told me that...
I say to hell with them. Enjoy your hobbies your way. If DCC isn't your thing, never mind it. If layout scenery isn't your thing, don't worry about it. Just do the best you can and have fun. That applies to model railroading and life in general...

trainluver1

[steveblackledge]

You will always get the crackpot who mocks and turns up his nose at other peoples hard work, i don't give the one's with the snobby attitude the time of day.
if you make something and you like it, to hell with the critics and snobs

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: triple stack auto racks on a 0-6-0 Mogul

See, this is the kind of thing that a model railroading snob finds funny.

Dragging triple-stack auto racks behind a Mogul is fine. Heck, I watch 1930s era diesel locomotives pull modern lumber spine cars at the CSRM every week. But the only time you'd find an 0-6-0 Mogul is if the pilot wheels got torn off by something!

Snobby? Maybe. Funny? Well, maybe a snob would think so!

[SpaceMouse]

I'm a snob. I think we all may be to a certain extent.

I can go to someone's layout and see all the beautiful work done and think "He really should weather that tower. It is just too clean for this area. See if it is something I know how to do then everyone should do it. This completly ignores the fact that although I have some 20 structures on my layout, I've only gotten around to weathering 3.

Mostly though, I know how to keep my mouth shut. I follow Bambi's friend thumper's advce: "Iffn ya can't say sumthin nice, doant say nuthin tatall."

When I find the inner snob cropping up, I look around and usually I find something that puts me in my place.

[Anonymous]

I'd say they're in every hobby - there will always be some who insist that to be a "real" hobbyist you have to have the latest kit (usually the most expensive brands). Personally I feel that you can achieve superb results with cheap equipment and skill - I've seen steam locos ruined with an appalling brush paint job but described as "great" when they could have done it quicker, neater and cheaper with an aerosol can. I've also seen articles moaning about a new RTR model but accepting gaping problems with a kit such as poor fit of parts (neither was in MR by the way).

I do think that some take it far too seriously. While I admire their dedication, I can't follow it - it would be too much like writing essays. I'd rather do enough research to allow me to figure out what's still out there and what can operate together, as with a fictional museum line I'm free to run anything I like within reason - For example, I have C&NW Bilevels because the IRM has a set, and they do make sense - can move a lot of people in comfort and load/unload quickly, as well as not needing to run round at the end of the line. Still trying to explain how a German diesel-hydraulic loco and cab car have turned up though...