GM is ending HO/N licenses for scale vehicles

[bcawthon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Bill Cawthon,

RE: The GMC Fisbowl buses that Busch is producing. That body style came out in 1959 and lasted till the mid 1970s. So if Germany has the "30 year rule" as you stated then should not the Busch Model Company be able to produce that coach as well as other GM buses, cars and trucks from 1974 on back?

Possibly. Busch has been very careful to refer to the TDH-5301 model as an "American Fishbowl Bus", and avoid the use of the GM name. However, there are two problems:

First, because Busch has models of relatively recent GM vehicles in its product line (1995 Caprice, 1995-98 S-10 Blazer), GM required Busch to license all of its General Motors replicas. This included the bus. It may now be difficult to go back and claim exemption on the basis of abandonment after already having executed the licensing agreement.

Second, the "Fishbowl" series did not go out of production until 1977, meaning Busch would have to mothball all the work done to date for two more years and the company needs to start seeing some returns from a very large investment.

[willy6]

Choking hazards? I've yet to see a warning label on a box of toothpicks.

[tstage]

How far do you take this? Will thumb tacks and paper clips soon no longer be available because infants could swallow them? How about our currency? Should pennies, nickels and dimes be outlawed or redesigned? (They are all smaller than a 1:87.1 scale car?)

To bring it closer to MRR "home". What about ballast or rail joiners? Woodland Scenic figures? Do we toss out Z-scale cars and locomotives with the "bath water"? The list could go on and on.

With the legal responsibility "paranoia" looming over every aspect of our society these days, it's no wonder that this sort of action is being taken. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for "reasonable" actions being taken to protect toddlers from injuring themselves accidentally. But how far do you take this? What ever happened to parental interaction, responsibility, and involvement? How about common sense? Are we so much more educated now that we're actually becoming more stupid?

It's indeed a sad statement on society and our world as a whole. Everyone is no longer responsible for their own actions: It's always someone else's fault.

And, if you don't like or agree with my above statements, don't blame me...

Tom

[AntonioFP45]

Bill,

Thanks again for your response.

I had a chance to buy an HO Pirate Models Fisbowl bus a year ago. The thing was $65 though. I guess now I should have gone for it.

[DMNolan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bcawthon

Citing concerns about infant and toddler choking hazards, General Motors will no longer license any scale models of its vehicles smaller than 1:64 or S scale. This is not a rumor. This has been confirmed by the senior executive handling the GM account at EMI and by GM’s manager of licensing.Bill C.

Can anybody provide a link, copy, newsarticle or anything to support this statement? I think that would help the discussion, if we knew where the information came from.

[JohnT14808]

Ok, so here we have umpteen thousands of modelers in the world that currently have GM 1:87 vehicles on their layouts. Does this mean that all the modelers are in violation of GM licensing now? I suspect that there will be a rash of HO scenes and/or dioramas of wrecked vehicles, smashed and burned beyond GM recognition.... Has anyone modeled at 48 car pileup on a freeway??

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Bill,

Thanks again for your response.

I had a chance to buy an HO Pirate Models Fisbowl bus a year ago. The thing was $65 though. I guess now I should have gone for it.

I remember Pirate Models in the Walthers catalog. I always thought their name was appropiate.

[AntonioFP45]

EricSP,

What makes me want to wack myself in the head with a 2x4 is that the when the Pirate Models Fishbowl buses first appeared in the Walthers Catalog back in 1980 or 1981(?), they were only $13 !!!!!!!! Procrastination does hurt!! I had the money too! I should have bought 10 of those things!

I know to some of you I may sound corny getting worked up over a bus! It's that I rode the darn things as a kid, and repaired them as an adult. I find it so ironic that finally:

(1) A beautiful, low priced model is available....
(2) Busch and Walthers dangle it in front of our faces.......
(3) Now it looks like it's going to be yanked away for no really good reason by GM!

For modelers, life can be so strange at times!

[Anonymous]

Is this an absolute, DONE DEAL? I thought somebody mentioned earlier that they [GM]were still deliberating about this. I don't see how an HO bus could be a choking hazard(!?)...

[dknelson]

I suppose there is an argument -- a strained one, but strained arguments win lawsuits too sometimes (ouch this McDonald's coffee is hot) -- that if GM licenses the product and makes some money off of it, it might have some responsibility -- remember that the UP license program involves, to some degree, the UP having to "approve" the model. So the trial lawyer would get some poor guy from GM on the stand and get him or her to admit that yes GM made money off the model and yes they "approved it" (never allowing them to say what it was they approved) and yes the kid bit off some part and choked and so on and so on.
Frankly no matter what the size of the model if a part breaks off and someone decides to nibble on it choking is a hazard. I don't really see how smaller than S is the problem
Dave Nelson

[bcawthon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DMNolan

Can anybody provide a link, copy, newsarticle or anything to support this statement? I think that would help the discussion, if we knew where the information came from.

The information came from General Motor's manager of licensing and the senior vice president of the company that handles GM's licensing program. I do have the statements in writing, but they are in archived personal e-mails that I am holding until I know the results of some meetings that will take place in Detroit this week.

The reason I am holding them in confidence is that the GM statement allows for 1:87 models in certain circumstances, while the later statement from the licensing agency was a flat statement such models would not be allowed.

There is also another consideration: the upcoming Busch bus model is not the only one affected. There is another Busch American-prototype model in the works and another company has up to four American models in production for a fall announcement. So this action by GM could cost us up to six models. In addition, it has already cost us some models from another manufacturer.

[bluepuma]

Once GM was king.... there will be no GM vehicles on my 1:1 driveway either, I swore my Cameo was the last GM, purchased new in Jan '82, I'm more for Ford or Chrysler. Sure would like a N scale '49 VW or some Auto Union, and 64 Hondas, Morris Pickups, Volvos, and Datsuns or Toyotas.

[AntonioFP45]

Bill,

Can you tell us what the other proposed models in the works are? (If you have to keep it confidential, though, it's understandable.)

Would be neat if the Flxible "New Look" transit bus were one of them.

[bcawthon]

Sorry, Antonio, that information is strictly confidential (especially right now, as these models in limbo until we can get GM sorted out).

[AntonioFP45]

Fully understood Bill.

In the meantime I've got locomotives and freight cars to work on. I'll keep an eye on this thread for your post regarding how the meeting went.

I hope very much that the news you post will be positve.

Cheers, amigo!

[tjsmrinfo]

heres my pennies worth (2 cents and uncle sam taxed that) we all switch our ho scale layouts to the early 1900's when it was all ford. while driving around town i see all vehicle manufacterers represented- ford, gm, chrysler etc.
i have to agree with roger 38 what happened to the common sense?????????????
as far as lawsuits go heres a good 1 for all you parents/grandparents. in 03-04 a lady in austin tx went into a furniture store and looked around for new furnishings for her house. she then tripped fell and broke her ankle, she sued the store and was awarded i think $600,000. now heres the kicker she tripped over her own toddler. what parent in their right collective mind goes into a busy store and puts their toddler on the floor unsupervised??? good thing i wasnt on that jury the dumb***woman wouldnt have got a dime.
back to the thread i kinda like to have a variety of vehicles on my layout--even though i don't have 1 as of yet
but i will have to agree if a petition is proposed put my name on it.

tom
modelling the santa fe circa late 80's early 90's before the bn/sf merger

[pushnshove]

This is off-thread, but the link was in here for some reason.
Did anyone notice in the photos of the British railroad that this fellow had linked to this site how neat, clean and well maintained and landscaped the RR right of was was in those pictures?
Why are US RRs (and highways for that matter) so darned scummy looking?

[davekelly]

Yes there are some outrageous jury results out there - but before telling of the latest outrage - read these sites:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/jonathan/turley020105.asp

http://www.northwestern.edu/univ-relations/media_relations/releases/2003_09/juries_text.html

The article about the furniture store is supposedly from the Stella Awards (a website that looks for silly court cases). At that site it basically says the furniture story is fabricated.

http://www.stellaawards.com/bogus.html

But then when you get an email - from some official sounding person or agency (Lt. Hardcase from Metropolitan Police is my favorite) it is human nature to believe it. Especially when Bill Gates is going to give you $10,000 if you forward it to ten people.

Dave

P.S. Here from the Stella award site is what they have posted concerning the coffee incident. The stuff is pretty well laid out pro and con leaving it to the reader to decide:

http://www.stellaawards.com/stella.html

[csmincemoyer]

Maybe we should all go to our local GM dealers, talk to a salesman for an hour and when he's ready to close the deal explain to them how upset we are on GM's stance on this. I'd imagine in bigger cities, word would travel pretty quick amongst the dealers.

Also, how acitve is MRIA and NMRA in issues like this?

[bcawthon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tjsmrinfo

heres my pennies worth (2 cents and uncle sam taxed that) we all switch our ho scale layouts to the early 1900's when it was all ford.

Whoa! It was never "all Ford," even in the early 20th Century. Ford didn't even sell his first car until late 1903.

By the time the Model T appeared in 1907, many of the brands with which we are familiar were already on the market. In fact, General Motors was formed the year after the Tin Lizzie made its debut. At that time, the company consisted of Cadillac (1901), Buick (1904), Oldsmobile (1897) and Oakland (later Pontiac). Chevrolet was added in 1912, when Billy Durant took over GM again. Dodge came along in 1914 after John and Horace had a fight with Henry Ford. Lincoln appeared in 1920 after Henry Leland, who developed the first Cadillac for a bunch of investors who had gotten burned by Henry Ford, got mad at Billy Durant. Chrysler was built on the ashes of the Maxwell in 1924. The first Pontiac was built out of Chevrolet parts in 1926, to replace the failing Oakland brand.

Studebaker had been around for years, having gotten its start in the mid-nineteenth century building covered wagons for the westward migration. In fact, it was Studebaker engineers who helped Walter Chrysler design his first cars.

Of course, in the early 1900s, there was a bewildering assortment of other cars, now long vanished. Plus, there were the European cars, like Mercedes and Rolls-Royce, which were being built in the U.S. (Rolls in Massachusetts, Mercedes at a Steinway factory on Long Island).

[Anonymous]

The heck with GM - someone make a HONDA ACCORD !!!

[bcawthon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey

The heck with GM - someone make a HONDA ACCORD !!!

There is one problem with the Honda Accord you're probably thinking of - it's a North America-only car. The Accord sold elsewhere is a smaller version, meaning that European sales would be close to non-existent.

So, the question is: would North American model railroaders buy the thousands it would take to make it a sound business prospect?

Perhaps, but I would feel more comfortable making a 1963 Ford, 1964 Plymouth or 1965 Rambler. For that matter, I would be happier with a 1957 Ford. After all, we have a bunch of '57 Chevy Bel Airs and the Ford was a better-selling car that year.

As much as I would hate to see a GM-free HO catalog, there is a huge number of American cars that have never been offered in HO. Chryslers, Dodges, Fords, Lincolns, Mercurys, Packards, Plymouths, Ramblers and Studebakers, just to name a few. There have been some here and there, but imagine all the possibilities in just the '60s and '70s, when open auto racks were the rule.

[Anonymous]

Im still waiting for someone to come out with a niasson altima.

[bcawthon]

Nissan is handled by the same licensing company that handles GM. We'll see what happens tomorrow.

[bcawthon]

I don't have all the details yet, but it appears GM blinked. They will now license HO-scale models, provided the model is at least 2.25 inches long. [^]

While that does mean we will be able to have the new Busch bus and certain other existing models, it still cuts off a lot of prototypes. All Camaros, all Corvettes, all Corvairs, all Chevy II and Nova models before 1974, some of the short-wheelbase trucks and more.

We'll be girding up for the charge again. Heck, we haven't even mentioned N scale yet, and that's my scale!

[caboose63]

if all production of HO scale GM cars and vehicles ended there is not much anyone could do except stock up on them before the supplies at Walthers were exhausted. i myself would not be upset if that happened since i think GM is not so hot these days. they seem to produce the same kind of car with minor variations and call it a new model. GM's idiotic decision will mean just more publicity for Chrysler-Daimler, Ford and other auto makers that love to have their vehicles made in HO and other scales. besides way GM is going i doubt they will be in business ins say 15 years. i do plan to buy some of boley's HO scale fire fighting equipment and forest service equipment before its too late

[bcawthon]

Confirmed: GM has changed its mind and will allow 1:87 scale models as long as the model is 2.25 inches or longer!

Don't worry about the Boley models. If what I learned today is correct, they should be in no danger as they are well over 2.25 inches in length.

One interesting thing: The new Model Power Mini 1955 Chevy Bel Air, which is almost exactly right on compared to the prototype, squeaks by the new standards. However, the CMW model of the same car, which is not quite accurate, misses the minimum size standard. So, the Model Power can stay, the CMW will be gone after current inventories are depleted.

I checked 61 randomly selected current and classic GM cars and trucks. Out of the list, only 27 passed the minimum size standard, based on GM specs for the prototype. 28 were between 2.00 inches and 2.24 inches. The remaining six (Vega, Aveo, Solstice, Sky and Fiero) are all under 2 inches.

Next up is pressure to allow models 2 inches and larger. Then comes the real battle: N scale.

But for now, I need to get back to work getting the models we want produced.

[AntonioFP45]

Bill,

The service you provide is priceless and appreciated! Thanks very much for keeping us updated. I'm passing your information on to other modelers on a Yahoo forum. The more made aware, the better.

It does seem like a modern trend. General Motors, just like Union Pacific is a huge corporation that seems to wants to prevent getting a hangnail in it's little finger..........by completely tearing out the fingernail!

While I'm relieved that the Busch Buses have been spared, I'm dissappointed that other vehicles that I would like to have like the late 60s Cutlass 442 or early 70s Trans Ams are being excluded. I did see some HO GM cars and pickup trucks at my LHS. I'm going to pick up a few of them before they're gone

This situation is a hammer blow to N scale modelers! Especially since N scale is enjoying a strong growth in popularity.

[Leon Silverman]

The solution to the 2.25" minimum is to sell "stretched" versions of the smaller cars. The purchaser could then cut out the stretch section out of the middle of the model, glue the remaining halves together, and produce an authentically kitbashed (kit slashed?) model of the real vehicle.

[Anonymous]

If you believe the reports from latest business news about GM, they might not be making any size cars in the future. They have sold off everything in sight to raise money, but they are still going down in market share and will probably be forced to merge or be bankrupt.