Poor Athearn! I like them, but they keep missing the knocks of opportunity!

[Anonymous]

In my years of growing up (now 35) with the Athearn line,I was very fascinated with everything Irv Athearn had to offer. Everything was in a kit form,which I had liked. I was always on the look-out for something new,that Athearn would put out. I particularly liked assembling the diesel locomotives and putting on the metal handrails,then going back to the hobby shop and buying extensive quantities of diesel parts from Details West and Details Associates. It "WAS" a great hobby to be in,.....................until now at present day and time.When Irv Athearn passed on,I was afraid that Athearn would go out of business. Many past years of having the Walthers catalog,showed that about 40% of what was supposed to be made was not even being produced...mostly parts and some locomotives and freight cars,that were seen in the catalog as being blue colored -"unknown if production will resume". Now...Athearn is a waste of my time. I have lived in many places across this U.S. of A,and have made alot of friends and knew of great places to get great model railroad equipment, WHEN it was in kit form. Now we as a society have gotten quite lazy,among not having the time and patience to build kits. Now everything (except structures),is already built. it makes me sick to see model railroad equipment that is suppose to be "prototypical ",yet I find that some,if not all of the new stuff is'"way out of scale". Look at the heavy-duty flat cars with the loads on them,they're as big as the boxcars!!!,and this is suppose to "fit in" on the layouts?!!! Not mine it won't. And now Athearn is making semi trucks and freight cars with loads.Yes the stuff is nice to look at,but where the hell is the "modeling" part of these products for the hobby,and a "rare breed veteran" as myself to build? Athearn may think that they are on to something great,though in my book,its ruining the hobby in general.What is it,$10-15.00 dollars for a semi truck,when I can build on myself with "everything" on it,that Athearn doesn't put on it,and if i wanted to sell one of my trucks,it would be in a price brackett of $100.00. Yes that is a hefty price tag,but what you get is a semi that has MORE detail on it than what Athearn can't put on it,like a company,chains,antennas,a person in the driver seat,small operating bulbs for the lights,doors that open,a detailed engine that is also painted,and the air lines on the back of the truck. This IS a model. Yes it is a shame that Horizon does not have a catalog,and that Walthers doesn't have the line in their catalog,but look at the other businesses that are hurting as well. The detail parts people who make the extras to put on the locomotives,the people who make the spare parts to sell,to replace parts that get broke,not to mention the hobby shops that take the brunt of loosing great and frequent customers that come to buy kits. I am one of many people who like to build kits,but what is the use when you have so much garbage on the market that is useless and unattractive to some modelers. The locomotives now with detail parts on them and the plastic handrails.I'm sorry,but this stuff is garbage. You can have your DCC and what not in the locomotive,...........but is it worth it? Is a model railroad club going to change their layout to fit people who have DCC trains? At the "Trainfest" here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin,Athearn is always there. I stopped and looked at their products,and the guy there asked me what I thought of the "new" line. I flat out told him that is was[censored]. He was surprised by that statement,and I told him to bring back the kits,and put "nothing"extra on the locomotives,except the basics-horn,lenses,and the metal handrails. I also told him to go back to the company and make model train equipment the way Irv Athearn wanted and produced them. I'm sure that Horizon is loosing alot of money,but who would want to buy something from them,when you cant even see what it looks like first,and to see if you actually want it,and to make sure that the number on that freight car is not the same as what you may have already.i'm sure that there are a few people who I may have peeved a bit,but if you ARE a modeler of trains,then what are YOU doing buying something that is already put together. These are the reasons why I have stopped with model railroading. There is not a *** thing that is "catching my eyes" to purchase. The keyword is "MODELER", and this is what we all should be. If you "don't have the time" to build a kit,then how can you be called a model railroader? The heading may say that Athearn is missing the opportunity,but what they are really missing is what us modelers really want,and they are not even listening to us.If they are I certainly have not seen it. ........think about it.[sigh]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwfan11
Now we as a society have gotten quite lazy,among not having the time and patience to build kits. Now everything (except structures),is already built.

Guess you haven't seen the built up structures offered by Walthers and Design Preservation - all packaged in a bubble of clear plastic, ready to plop on the layout. Modeling it ain't! [V]

Bob Boudreau

[simon1966]

cnwfan11

Thanks for expressing some of the sentiments that I feel. I am in no way a rivet counting modeller. But, I get an enormous degree of pleasure from the modelling aspect of the hobby. I own 1 RTR freight car and will never buy another. If something is sold as RTR, I should not have to take it apart to add weight to get it to NMRA standard. But what is lost by the move to RTR is the ability for Dads like me to sit at the work bench with the kids and create something. This is why I still buy Athearn BB freight car kits. A couple of hours spent at a table helping little engineers understand basic plans and directions, teaching them about the use of basic tools and glues. Helping them develop fine motor skills and pride in a job well done, is worth every penny of the $5 to $7 for a Blue box kit. My concern with Athearn, is that the BB kits are so simple that my boys are growing beyond them and so we will likely move on to Accurail kits. I think that Athearn could well learn from the plastic aircraft kit makers and make kits for different skill levels. This way new modellers could develop with the product line, rather than move beyond it, as so many see to have done.

[Paul3]

AntonioFP45 wrote:

QUOTE: For years many of us, myself included purchased Athearn cars and locos. Tough and rugged, Blue Boxes still run on many layouts. However, since I was very loyal it saddened me that Athearn, as a company, has always seemed to be slow to act on opportunities as technology advanced and standards in model railroading were rising steadily.

Your knowledge is incomplete. Athearn has been on the leading edge of model railroading...they just aren't on the leading edge all the time. For example, wasn't Athearn the first to have all plastic kits instead of metal or wood? Didn't Athearn invent the center motor, twin gear tower drive that everyone uses today? Didn't Athearn create the most accurate HO Blomberg truck ever made in any material? Didn't Athearn release the first ever model of an Genesis AMD-103 model? I could go on, but I think I've shown that your statement that they have "always seemed to be slow to act" is incorrect. Have they always been the pioneer of model railroading? No, but then, no one has. Even Atlas was slow to adopt sound and release models with seperate grabs...

QUOTE: Then, Life Like, a company whose HO trains were "toys", explodes onto the scene with the Proto line.

Talk about smacking Athearn in the face!

It was a wake up call to all the manufacturers...Athearn, Atlas, Kato, Bachmann, Stewart, Bowser, etc.

QUOTE: Life Like-Proto produced nearly all of the same or similar units as Athearn, except with correctly scaled bodies, remarkable detailing, heavier weight, doors that opened, and realistic lighting! To add insult to injury, the drive was an Athearn clone!! This basically guaranteed, easy maintenance for most experienced Athearn owners. So simultaneously Proto units compete with the Athearn Genesis and Blue Box lines.

Your timing is way off. P2K released the BL-2 in 1989. Then they did the FA-2's in 1990-91, and the GP18's in 1992-1993. At this time, Irv Athearn was still running his company. And I don't know if you noticed, but Athearn wasn't making too many new models in the 1980's. Irv was a crafty guy who wanted to corner the market by making his products cheaper than anyone else's, and this involved not shelling out new money for new models.

Proto didn't release the same model that Athearn made until 1995 (SW1200 & SD7), 6 years after the P2K line was introduced. It was hardly a "slap in the face" for Athearn in that regard, and IIRC, Irv had passed on by that point (tho' I could be wrong). In any event, Athearn Genesis did not come along until after Irv died and after his family sold the company.

QUOTE: Top it off, rumors are floating that either Life Like or Kato are thinking of the F45 and FP45 within two years! Athearn, are you guys awake? Older units are still popular!

And how many people actually care about F45/FP45's compared to other models they could be making? Only western modelers would want them. Now compare that to their Genesis F-units, the RTR CF-7. and the newly tooled RS-3 coming this year...every region of the country wants these models. Do you really think that F45 sales would equal F's, RS-3's, or CF-7 sales?

QUOTE: Am I the only one that wonders why didn't Athearn managers do this when they had the opprotunity, during the 90s??

Because of Irv Athearn, that's why. He didn't want to spend the money. And then after he died, it took a while to find new owners. And even after the new owners took over, they then had to find the capital to invest in not only buying Athearn, but also buying new tooling. This doesn't happen overnight, but as soon as they did, they created the Genesis line.

gsetter wrote:

QUOTE: We don't know what management was thinking at Athearn before P2K and Bachman Spectrum hit the scene. The P2K (& P1K) got a good foot hold in the market by the time the Genesis line was introduced.

Genesis came out before P1K, IIRC.

Don Gibson wrote:

QUOTE: Athearn's RTR and Genesis line is their answer to PROTO2000, however is plagued by continuing QUALITY control problems - their SD70'S still have the same problems - after 3 years.

To quote a Tom Hank's: character: Opening a current Athearn engine is like opening a box of choclate's. "One never know's what what you're going to get."

The same could be said of any manufacturer. I have an Atlas H16-44 that buzzes at low speeds like a hornet, a P2K FB-1 that thunks like it's got a flat wheel, and a Bachmann Spectrum 4-8-2 that sounds like a baseball card got caught in the spokes. My LHS sent back half his BLI GG-1's because they didn't work, and even Kato has pick up problems on certain engines. Every single manufactuer has QC problems.

siberianmo wrote:

QUOTE: This "high end" stuff is absolutely suffocating many of us in the hobby. Why do we let it happen? I guess the answer is quite simple - as long as there are more willing to pay the prices than not .........

"Suffocating"? What in the world are you talking about? How can the production of high quality models "suffocate" anyone? This hobby can be as expensive or as cheap as you want it to be.

QUOTE: I think the mark of opportunity missed by Athearn is that they just decided to "chuck" the market represented by entry level and maybe "moderate" income folks. High end? Not for me - thanx!

That's not true. If it was, why do they still, even today, make BB kits? Hmm?

davekelly wrote:

QUOTE: Imagine if instead of doing RTR they would reissue the Blue Box using the RRP shells they acquired. Athearn seems to be doing this with its RTR GP35. How about a Blue Box SD45 with the RPP shell? This would allow a somewhat real world test of what sells better or makes more business sense.

Remember, Athearn has their own sales numbers to base their decisions on. We don't.

AntonioFP45 wrote:

QUOTE: I had seriously considered buying a Genesis F unit. However that changed when my wife's cousin ran his brand new $100+ Genesis SD75M on his layout for me and it actually growled just as loudly as my Blue Box SD9. I said to myself, "Forget it! No more Athearn locos for me!"

Which is foolish, IMHO. Just because one SD70 growled, you won't buy any F-units? It's a completely different drive. Try actually test running a loco before you buy it, it's the only way to make sure you don't get a lemon (and all manufacturers make lemons from time to time).

QUOTE: The issue with so many of us, including me was that Athearn reached a "plateau" and stayed on it while LIfe Like shot past it and continued to climb. Again, didn't you notice that Life Like was making models similar in type to Athearn's BB line?

Athearn plateau-ed for most of the 1980's. I think they only released 3 or 4 diesels in all that time (GP38, GP40, GP50, & SD40). And LL wasn't the only one to "shoot past" Athearn. Atlas did it in the late 1970's/early 1980's with can motors.

And again, LL didn't make anything that Athearn made for 6 years...

QUOTE: My point of this thread is that what Life LIke did with the P2K line Athearn should have done years back. Plain and simple.

Yeah, right. Athearn should have scrapped their entire product line and jacked prices up to compete against... who? It made sense for LL to enter the market with something different because they had nothing to lose. If Athearn did it by themselves, they'd be competing against their own product.

QUOTE: But Athearn is no longer on top of the food chain as far as sales of affordable locomotives. Life Like rapidly closed the gap.

Do you have statistics to back that up? AFAIK, Athearn still makes the cheapest locos around that are better than train set locos.

jrbernier wrote:

QUOTE: What I do not really understand is the RTR treatment of the BB freight car kits. The paint jobs are great, but they still are basic 50/60's BB cars with fat roof walks and cast on grabs.

Not all of them. Have you seen the new RTR 85' TOFC cars? They have many improvements, including new trailer hitches, seperate grabs, new metal weights and bolsters (dropping the car height) and new switch coupler pockets.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Paul3]

Geez, in the time it took me to write my first post, there are more things to respond to...

AntonioFP45 wrote:

QUOTE: I also had problems with coupler box ears that were too small and wouldn't hold coupler boxes in place. I will no longer purchase Athearn BB freight cars.

If you can't get the covers to stay on, try drilling out the center shaft center for a 2-56 screw, then use the screw to hold the cover on. It is a kit, after all (I usually find that bending the ears inward a bit works 99% of the time).

QUOTE: However, from what some of you have stated Athearn is still not conforming to NMRA height standards on even their RTR cars. Guys, is this still the case? Please chime in as I would appreciate knowing.

Yes, Athearn has tried to fix the coupler height problem by producing trucks on RTR models that have a thicker truck bolster.

QUOTE: But as for hoppers and other types of cars I've turned to Bowser. Bowsers covered and open hoppers, IMHO, are comparable in price and do look better. But again, healthy competition in the "affordable" lines!

I have a few Boswer open hoppers...They won't stay on the track worth a darn without adding weight to them. The 2-bay covered hoppers are excellent models (I have at least 6) and track well (but then, Athearn doesn't make 2-bay covered hoppers...only MDC does in the "el cheapo" category).

cnwfan11 wrote:

QUOTE: In my years of growing up (now 35) with the Athearn line,I was very fascinated with everything Irv Athearn had to offer. Everything was in a kit form,which I had liked. I was always on the look-out for something new,that Athearn would put out.

I bet you had to wait a long time between "new" Athearn items, didn't you?

QUOTE: I particularly liked assembling the diesel locomotives and putting on the metal handrails,then going back to the hobby shop and buying extensive quantities of diesel parts from Details West and Details Associates.

For starters, that's great if Athearn made something you wanted. If they didn't, tough oats. For example, I model the NH, guess what Athearn made that fit NH locos? PA-1's, SW1200's and GP9's, all of which had some serious issues like too-wide hoods or giant coupler openings in the pilot. Only now with the release of FA's, DL109's, RS-3's, S-1's, etc., can one model the NH with anything close to realism.

Secondly, what's stopping you now from buying BB kits? They still make them, DW and DA are still in business, and so is Smokey Valley.

QUOTE: It "WAS" a great hobby to be in,.....................until now at present day and time.

Oh, puh-leeze.

QUOTE: When Irv Athearn passed on,I was afraid that Athearn would go out of business.

Hardly. Athearn was (and is) too big a player in this hobby to disappear. Someone would have come along and bought the company, just like it happened. It's not like Athearn was Front Range...

QUOTE: Many past years of having the Walthers catalog,showed that about 40% of what was supposed to be made was not even being produced...mostly parts and some locomotives and freight cars,that were seen in the catalog as being blue colored -"unknown if production will resume".

And? So? Athearn's been doing "batch" production for years, even when Irv himself was still around. When I first got into the hobby seriously in 1990, you could not find a 200ton Derrick or a Budd RDC to save your life. Then in the mid 1990's, they were everywhere again. Big deal.

QUOTE: Now...Athearn is a waste of my time.

Even the kits they still make?

QUOTE: Now we as a society have gotten quite lazy,among not having the time and patience to build kits. Now everything (except structures),is already built.

Lazy? Hey, maybe we want to actually run our trains rather then build them.

And not everything is pre-built. As I said, Athearn still makes kits. Heck, Accurail, Bowser, Branchline, etc., all make kits. So much for "everything".

QUOTE: it makes me sick to see model railroad equipment that is suppose to be "prototypical ",yet I find that some,if not all of the new stuff is'"way out of scale".

You are wrong in some, if not all, of your statement. Please provide examples of "way out of scale" equipment that is RTR.

QUOTE: Look at the heavy-duty flat cars with the loads on them,they're as big as the boxcars!!!,and this is suppose to "fit in" on the layouts?!!! Not mine it won't.

This is your only example? How do you know that nothing like that was ever shipped on US rails? There have been even bigger items, which is why the Schnabel Cars exist. And if these were transformers, they'd fit on a NH layout, with had a GE plant or two on the line. Heck, the New Haven alond had three different classes of depressed center flats for these kinds of loads.

QUOTE: And now Athearn is making semi trucks and freight cars with loads.Yes the stuff is nice to look at,but where the hell is the "modeling" part of these products for the hobby,and a "rare breed veteran" as myself to build?

Athearn's been making semi-trucks for decades (where have you been?). And the modeling these days is in the modeling of the operations of the railroad, not just the equipment of the railroad.

QUOTE: Athearn may think that they are on to something great,though in my book,its ruining the hobby in general.

Athearn's job is to make money. Saving the hobby isn't.

QUOTE: What is it,$10-15.00 dollars for a semi truck,when I can build on myself with "everything" on it,that Athearn doesn't put on it,and if i wanted to sell one of my trucks,it would be in a price brackett of $100.00. Yes that is a hefty price tag,but what you get is a semi that has MORE detail on it than what Athearn can't put on it,like a company,chains,antennas,a person in the driver seat,small operating bulbs for the lights,doors that open,a detailed engine that is also painted,and the air lines on the back of the truck. This IS a model.

Can someone please tell me what the problem is here? Athearn makes a $15 RTR truck that doesn't have all the detail on it that you would charge $100 for if you did put all the detail on it. Is there something stopping you from adding more detail to a RTR truck? I don't see a problem...

And how many people are going to add all that detail to an HO model truck? I mean, c'mon. That's out on the fringe... And because Athearn doesn't have opening cab doors on a semi truck, it's not a model?

QUOTE: Yes it is a shame that Horizon does not have a catalog,

They have a website. It's not very good (in fact, their online catalog is horrible), but they do have it.

QUOTE: The detail parts people who make the extras to put on the locomotives,the people who make the spare parts to sell,to replace parts that get broke,

And Athearn, Atlas, P2K, Kato, et al, should care about detail companies in what way?

QUOTE: not to mention the hobby shops that take the brunt of loosing great and frequent customers that come to buy kits

Instead, they are coming in to buy RTR.

QUOTE: I am one of many people who like to build kits,but what is the use when you have so much garbage on the market that is useless and unattractive to some modelers.

I guess you'll just have to scratchbuild... Can't get much more of a "kit" than that.

QUOTE: The locomotives now with detail parts on them and the plastic handrails.I'm sorry,but this stuff is garbage.

I admit that some of the plastic hand rails are not good (like on the P2K SW-units). However, there are far more great renditions in plastic hand rails than not. And detail parts on a model is "garbage"? Are you joking? See-through grills and fine detail is a bad thing?

QUOTE: You can have your DCC and what not in the locomotive,...........but is it worth it? Is a model railroad club going to change their layout to fit people who have DCC trains?

Yes, it's worth it. Yes, clubs all over the place are changing to DCC. In the Boston area alone, the following HO clubs have all changed to DCC from analog DC:

South Shore Model Railway Club (Hingham, MA)
North Shore Model Railroad Club (Wakefield, MA)
Worcester Model Railroaders
Providence Northern Railroad Club
Old Colony Railroad Club (Taunton, MA)

QUOTE: At the "Trainfest" here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin,Athearn is always there. I stopped and looked at their products,and the guy there asked me what I thought of the "new" line. I flat out told him that is was (censored).

Wow. There's a way to get a manufacturer to listen. If you say such a thing to just about anyone, you will be dismissed as a "crank" and your opinion will be summarily dismissed.

QUOTE: He was surprised by that statement,

I bet.

QUOTE: and I told him to bring back the kits,and put "nothing"extra on the locomotives,except the basics-horn,lenses,and the metal handrails. I also told him to go back to the company and make model train equipment the way Irv Athearn wanted and produced them.

If they did that, they'd probably be out of business by now. People aren't buying too many kits anymore, I don't know if you noticed. Going RTR has saved Athearn and kept them abreast of the competition.

Also, if they went back to the way Irv ran it, they'd only make 3 or 4 new models a decade. Is that what you want?

BTW, you were complaining earlier about "garbage" detail on new units...what do you think of Athearn metal handrails? You know, the ones without any detail, that are grossly out of scale, etc.?

QUOTE: I'm sure that Horizon is loosing alot of money,but who would want to buy something from them,when you cant even see what it looks like first,and to see if you actually want it,and to make sure that the number on that freight car is not the same as what you may have already.

How do you know that Horizon is losing money? And if I want to see what it looks like first and to double check car numbers, I look on the internet.

QUOTE: i'm sure that there are a few people who I may have peeved a bit,but if you ARE a modeler of trains,then what are YOU doing buying something that is already put together.

Yeah, you've "peeved" me. I'm buying something RTR because (shock, horror!) I want to run my trains. Silly me, I thought that's what we did in this hobby.

QUOTE: These are the reasons why I have stopped with model railroading.

You've stopped model railroading because of what other people are doing? Give me a break. If you've stopped, why are you on the "MODEL RAILROADER FORUM"???

QUOTE: There is not a *** thing that is "catching my eyes" to purchase.

Then why don't you scratchbuild something?

QUOTE: The keyword is "MODELER", and this is what we all should be. If you "don't have the time" to build a kit,then how can you be called a model railroader?

Gee, I don't know...maybe by actually running my railroad as model of the real thing, with schedules, timetables, waybills, etc.

QUOTE: The heading may say that Athearn is missing the opportunity,but what they are really missing is what us modelers really want,and they are not even listening to us.If they are I certainly have not seen it. ........think about it.

What modelers really want? No, I think they are dead on. You are out of the mainstream.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

Paul, YOU ARE THE MAN! Couldn't have said it better myself.[^][^][^][bow][tup][wow]

[AntonioFP45]

Hello Paul,

Let's see. You post very intelligent points, though sometimes you do come across as smug or confrontational. So be it. We're not Anti-Athearn here as most of the responders are or have been Athearn owners.

You're correct, I should have been more precise about the time period I was referring to which is from the 1980s to now. Yes, Athearn was very innovative back in the 60s and 70s. I remember the thrill I felt. when my mother bought me my first Athearn passenger car in 1976. My first powered Athearn was a U-Boat with no flywheels. Still far better than the Tyco F7 I was struggling with!

My timing way off? Good goobly! What are you talking about? I do remember well when the Proto 2000 models were released as I was at my LHS back then whenever a new model arrived. I never said that Proto released these models simultaneously. This was over a period of years. My comment here was generalized. so GENERALLY SPEAKING, Proto Geeps to Athearn Geep, P2K SDs to Ath.SD, Proto PA to Ath. PA, Proto Switchers to Ath.Switcher, Proto RDCs to Athearn RDC TODAY do compete strongly with Athearn Blue Boxes and/or RTR due to discounted prices from internet dealers and Ebay auctions have been .

Let me see, You say I'm foolish for judging Genesis units based on what I saw from an SD75M. Paul, it's called FIRST IMPRESSIONS! I know that "Lemons" pop up from everyone but my view is based on my having seen and heard locomotives perform. Perhaps I'm unfair, but IN MY OPINION for $110 that Genesis should have been much quieter and smoother. AND BY THE WAY.......he bought two more Genesis units. Guess what Paul.......THEY GROWL! I was very suprised after he ran them. My friend, who has been a die-hard Athearn man told me "Forget it, no more Athearns for me!" I had not even said a word to him, but I am going to suggest to him that he take off the shell and try lubricating the mechanism as it might quiet it a bit. He now has his sights set on two Proto SD60s. So right there on the spot Athearn lost two sales from a customer who doesn't mind paying full price, in cash$$$$ !! So I'm foolish?

Regarding the stats you're asking about. I stated that the market stats I referred to were older and not current. Check with Kalmbach. You say

QUOTE: Athearn makes the cheapest locos all the way around that are better than trainset locos

Hmmmmmmm..Well..........O.K, no one has disagreed with that point, myself included. BUT..........That point, while true, holds "little significance" since through discount dealers, and ebay it's easy to get P2Ks and P1Ks at the equivilent of Athearn Blue Box prices. While not the intent of the manufacturer, it's the current situation...........and we are benefiting from it. Or at least I am. By the way, I don't know what AFAIK stands for.

As for you question on the Cowls. Western roads? You're forgetting that Amtrak, WC,
Chicago Metra also used cowls that are based on the F45/FP45 body. Currently a group of ex-Metra F40Cs are supposedly working on the KCS from HELM Leasing. Your comment

QUOTE: How many people actually care....

Well, if few care then why are two companies suddenly talking about producing them? Especially with so many Athearn cowls floating on Ebay? So you don't think that if Kato or Life Like produce a limited run of cowls, they won't sell??? Please! If this is the case then why did Athearn produce the SD45T-2????? Only a few roads owned this giant! Yet, they are selling! So if Kato or Life Like do produce cowls in 2 years.....and they sell well, I'll be back here to post:: Well, Athearn missed the boat again!

As I stated you give very intelligent points, but no need to be so defensive.

QUOTE: Yeah right an Athearn should have scrapped their entire product line..........

If you think that we're incorrect, point it out but there's no need to be so sarcastically nasty.

Take care, Amigo!

[simon1966]

Antonio, there is a UN Ambasador post going begging......you would be great for it![:D]

[Don Gibson]

Paul III

I would agree with your satement - except for a weighting factor

Out of assortment of approx. 54 Atlas, Stewart , Kato, Atlas / Kato, Atlas / Roco, Stewart / Kato's I've had ONE FT - (with a defective circut boad - replaced) and 4 Atlas / Roco's with non -NMRA coupler height's

COMPARED TO

An assortment of Genesis (15), RTR (5) - Total 20 - (all in the last 3 years)
2 motors went bad - (replaced)
1 Ditchlight burned out
1 Noisy motor
3 warped trucks

That's 7 Times!
plus ALL with non NMRA or KD coupler height's

In fairness, I din't buy any 'Snoot's'.

QUOTE: I have an Atlas H16-44 that buzzes at low speeds like a hornet, a P2K FB-1 that thunks like it's got a flat wheel, and a Bachmann Spectrum 4-8-2 that sounds like a baseball card got caught in the spokes. My LHS sent back half his BLI GG-1's because they didn't work, and even Kato has pick up problems on certain engines. Every single manufactuer has QC problems

... AND YOU HAVE HAD 0 DEFECT'S WITH (NEW) ATHEARN's?

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

Antonio, there is a UN Ambasador post going begging......you would be great for it!

Hmmmmmm.... Interesting job Simon!

However, I wouldn't survive long as the U.N is too much of a toothless tiger these days! I admire their intentions, but I certainly won't look up to them.

Peace!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Guys,

Great input! I went ahead and actually e-mailed this thread to Athearn. I do hope that they read it and use the views expressed here to help in future decisions.

Antonio

I emailed Athearn last year when the Genesis Challenger came out, and they replied back to me on the Challenger sound issue.. I do not know of any action that resulted from my comments on the sound unless we see an improvement in the new run. I hope they at least give a look at the comments that you have offered since the market seems to be changing daily.

I never dreamed I would purchase a sound equipped locomotive, since I had owned a PFM sound unit for almost thirty years. But starting last year, I ended up with almost every steam model BLI offered.

Athearn should consider sound for the diesel market also if they want to be competitive.

[DavidBriel]

Athearn is not interested in producing entirely new HO freight cars such as the ACL Woodchip Hopper and the SP&S 50' straight side flatcar

[Paul3]

4884bigboy wrote:

QUOTE: Paul, YOU ARE THE MAN! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Thanks. [:I]

AntonioFP45 wrote:

QUOTE: Let's see. You post very intelligent points, though sometimes you do come across as smug or confrontational. So be it. We're not Anti-Athearn here as most of the responders are or have been Athearn owners.

Smug? Confrontational? Ok, that's fair, because sometimes I'm both. I don't deny it. [;)] I do like to point out where other's have gone astray where I'm sure I'm in the right. I can't help it, it's one of my failings. So, I may be a jerk from time to time, but I like to think I'm a useful jerk when I'm doing it.

Oh, and I, too, am an Athearn owner. I have three PA's, 2 SW1200's, and a scattering of RDC's (none of which are running because I haven't install DCC in them). Plus a bunch of passenger cars and over 100 freight cars. When I was a kid, I had a ABBA set of F's. I also still have my father's Athearn items from the 1960's.

QUOTE: You're correct, I should have been more precise about the time period I was referring to which is from the 1980s to now.

That's why I try to be careful when I throw around the words like "never" and "always". It's too easy to refute with only one little example.

QUOTE: My timing way off? Good goobly! What are you talking about? I do remember well when the Proto 2000 models were released as I was at my LHS back then whenever a new model arrived. I never said that Proto released these models simultaneously. This was over a period of years. My comment here was generalized. so GENERALLY SPEAKING, Proto Geeps to Athearn Geep, P2K SDs to Ath.SD, Proto PA to Ath. PA, Proto Switchers to Ath.Switcher, Proto RDCs to Athearn RDC TODAY do compete strongly with Athearn Blue Boxes and/or RTR due to discounted prices from internet dealers and Ebay auctions have been .

The impression I got from your post was that Athearn had their "faces slapped" when P2K "exploded" onto the scene and caused Athearn to discontinue all their products that P2K also made...and that's simply not the case. P2K started in 1989 and didn't make anything that competed with Athearn until 1995. They hardly "explodes onto the scene"...they only made 3 models in 4 years. The first P2K to cause any excitement in my club was the E8's. If you wanted to compare these two company's offerings over a period of years, then using hyperbole like "Life Like...explodes onto the scene" isn't the way to go.

And please don't compare discount prices of P2K equipment with full MSRP for Athearn. That's not a fair comparison. If a formerly $70 P2K RDC is going for $20, how much is a formerly $25 Athearn RDC going for?

QUOTE: Let me see, You say I'm foolish for judging Genesis units based on what I saw from an SD75M. Paul, it's called FIRST IMPRESSIONS!

Yes. Judging all Genesis units based on ONE example just because it's the first one you've seen is foolish. If that was logical, then you'd never buy anything made by Life-Like because your first impression was probably a "pancake drive" loco before the BL-2 (which was certainly my first impression of LL). The Genesis F-units I've seen at my club are some of the best runners we have. They aren't as quiet as Kato, but then, nothing is.

QUOTE: Perhaps I'm unfair, but IN MY OPINION for $110 that Genesis should have been much quieter and smoother.

No, I agree. For that much cash, it ought to be fine out of the box. That it wasn't is a concern, certainly. But to condemn and forsake all Athearn for that one engine? That's unfair.

QUOTE: AND BY THE WAY.......he bought two more Genesis units. Guess what Paul.......THEY GROWL!

Why didn't you mention that above? It certainly would have strengthened your argument. It still doesn't change my opinion that basing all future purchases of one company's products on ONE loco is foolish. Three? A problem for sure, and if I were to try buy any SD70M's, I'd test run them first. But I still don't see how that effects your non-purchase of Genesis F-units since they use different drive pieces.

QUOTE: Hmmmmmmm..Well..........O.K, no one has disagreed with that point, myself included. BUT..........That point, while true, holds "little significance" since through discount dealers, and ebay it's easy to get P2Ks and P1Ks at the equivilent of Athearn Blue Box prices. While not the intent of the manufacturer, it's the current situation...........and we are benefiting from it. Or at least I am. By the way, I don't know what AFAIK stands for.

And what are the discount prices going for Athearn items? Let's compare apples to apples. (Oh, and "AFAIK" means: "As Far As I Know").

QUOTE: As for you question on the Cowls. Western roads? You're forgetting that Amtrak, WC, Chicago Metra also used cowls that are based on the F45/FP45 body. Currently a group of ex-Metra F40Cs are supposedly working on the KCS from HELM Leasing.

Sorry, but the Amtrak units and the Metra F40C's are not even close to an F45/FP45. The only thing they have in common is that they are EMD 6-axle cowl units, which isn't saying much. Personally, I think Kato's new F40PH's will sell extremely well as every commuter agency (just about) had at least some, not to mention the nationwide appeal of Amtrak. But F45/FP45's? Who had them?

QUOTE: Well, if few care then why are two companies suddenly talking about producing them? Especially with so many Athearn cowls floating on Ebay? So you don't think that if Kato or Life Like produce a limited run of cowls, they won't sell??? Please! If this is the case then why did Athearn produce the SD45T-2????? Only a few roads owned this giant! Yet, they are selling! So if Kato or Life Like do produce cowls in 2 years.....and they sell well, I'll be back here to post:: Well, Athearn missed the boat again!

My point was that there were other units out there that are more likely to sell better than an F45/FP45 model. I never said that they wouldn't sell, just that other engines would sell better, IMHO.

QUOTE: As I stated you give very intelligent points, but no need to be so defensive.

Don't you mean, "offensive"? How can I be "defensive" if it was my first post on the subject? [;)]

QUOTE: If you think that we're incorrect, point it out but there's no need to be so sarcastically nasty.

Some people read more into my posts than is there, just like I apparently did with you. It can't be helped. If you go into reading my post thinking I'm a sarcastic jerk, I'm going to sound that way to you even if I'm simply typing the telephone book. [:)]Let me put it this way...if you have to think about it, I'm not trying to be a jerk. Believe me, when I'm going to be a sarcastic jerk, there will be no mistake. [8D]

Don Gibson wrote:

QUOTE: ... AND YOU HAVE HAD 0 DEFECT'S WITH (NEW) ATHEARN's?

No need to shout. I haven't bought any new Athearn power since they haven't made any New Haven engines in quite some time. I have no need for anything they've made of late... However, I am the chairman of the Mechanical Dept. of my RR club, and as such I help a lot of guys who have loco problems. In my experience, I have not seen a lot of problems with newer Athearns. Sure, there have been some problems (new 2-8-2's and 4-6-6-4's), but compared to BLI or P2K, it's hardly anything at all.

bangert1 wrote:

QUOTE: I emailed Athearn last year when the Genesis Challenger came out, and they replied back to me on the Challenger sound issue.. I do not know of any action that they resulted from my comments on the sound unless we see an improvement in the new run. I hope they at least give a look at the comments that have been offered since the market seems to be changing daily.

Whatever they do, I sure hope they don't use MRC as their electrical supplier next time. That was a big mistake, IMHO.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[countershot]

Hmm...... I think that athearn will be around for some time. they may fail at one piont but i do not think that is going to happen any time soon. I have orderd the new genesis challengers and i have operated it at the hobby shop.[:D] WOW very good detail sound is great and it is super quiet.....when the sound is off.

You never know athearn my have something up there sleve that will blow us all away!

and have you seen there new sd45 and gp38 assome stuff.

no i think they will be here fo a long time.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3

Don Gibson wrote:

QUOTE: ... AND YOU HAVE HAD 0 DEFECT'S WITH (NEW) ATHEARN's?

No need to shout. I haven't bought any new Athearn power since they haven't made any New Haven engines in quite some time. I have no need for anything they've made of late... However, I am the chairman of the Mechanical Dept. of my RR club, and as such I help a lot of guys who have loco problems. In my experience, I have not seen a lot of problems with newer Athearns. Sure, there have been some problems (new 2-8-2's and 4-6-6-4's), but compared to BLI or P2K, it's hardly anything at all.

I have though.....I got two of the SD50s..after I had told myself I wasn't going to touch any RTR...both run smooth as silk and surprisingly quiet....much better than my P2K and on par with the Katos and Atlas. Maybe I got two QC A+'s but I'm happy.

Dan

[siberianmo]

My first real HO layout featured the Pennsylvania RR, New York Central, New Haven and Boston & Maine, all located in a fictional place in the Massachusetts Berkshires ........ most of the rolling stock and loco's were from Athearn's blue boxes. Very affordable and to me, realistic in appearance. That collection began in the mid-60's when I was in my early 30's - just to give some perspective to all of this.

This discussion, started by AntonioFP45 (Dan) has taken on some interesting comments - some downright rude - others thought provoking - and yet others, just heartfelt responses to the originator's point of view.

I have some comments for one "Paul3":

QUOTE: From Siberianmo: This "high end" stuff is absolutely suffocating many of us in the hobby. Why do we let it happen? I guess the answer is quite simple - as long as there are more willing to pay the prices than not .........
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Suffocating"? What in the world are you talking about? How can the production of high quality models "suffocate" anyone? This hobby can be as expensive or as cheap as you want it to be.

Barf! Simply that - barf! Suffocating for those who cannot afford the prices in order to get into the hobby. Suffocating for those who don't want high-end products - just some mainstream stuff, thank you very much. No wonder these folks turn to other manufacturers.

QUOTE: From Siberianmo: I think the mark of opportunity missed by Athearn is that they just decided to "chuck" the market represented by entry level and maybe "moderate" income folks. High end? Not for me - thanx!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not true. If it was, why do they still, even today, make BB kits? Hmm?

Your attempt at a "slam dunk" fell way short of the rim ....... It IS true insofar as the newcomers are concerned - all are not into "state of the art" - some simply want a train set ...... the selection of roadnames for loco's and rolling stock is so reduced for moderately priced stuff - in comparison with the catalogs that fill my model RR bookshelves. Also - just try and find "one stop shopping" for Athearn blue boxes ... nearly impossible - either "backordered" or "out of stock" seems to be the common answer when net shopping. So, it IS true - for ME - repeated for clarify: Not for me, thanx! I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself, and that of course includes you.

[AntonioFP45]

Paul3

I read and understood your responses. Intelligent thoughts, though I still don't agree with some of them. But, that's the good thing about a high quality forum like this one.

BTW: Respectfully there is one point where you definetly are "off track". Regarding your last comment on the EMD Cowls.........

QUOTE: ....not even close

again, may not be your intent, but sounds smug and condescending. I did my research in the early 1990s.

Mechanically, the Amtrak SDP40f used an upgraded SD40-2 underframe and 16 cylinder powerplant. However, the "basic body design" though modified was FP45.

Just as Pontiac took the Chevy Camaro and easily turned it into a Firebird way back in the 60s, EMD took their Catalog FP45 body (which was actually an extended F45 with steam generator capacity) and modified it.

Four "easy to spot" modifications that stand out visually on the SDP's were:

(1) The updated grill work, (identical to the later released F40PH).
(2) The relocation of the side engine comparment doors-which were moved forward.
(3) The cab doors came with squared windows instead of rounded.
(4) The front porch, had no handrails and used skimpy ladders instead of steps.

Even the headlight housing retained the FP45 styling at first, until the 2nd batch of SDP40fs were delivered with flattened nose housings--(cheaper sheet metal costs.)

The Chicago Metra F40C. Again, an SD40-2 with an FP45 body, Similar situation, though with FAR MORE extensive body and mechanical modifications. 

Since they're now helping to haul frieight, more photos will likely appear on the prototype F40Cs.

Peace!

[Anonymous]

Paul III,
First off,you state that you got serious into MR in the 1990's. I've been into model railroading since I was 3 years old.(birth year 1970) Secondly,have you worked in a hobby shop? I worked in several;4 in the state of California,2 in Wisconsin,and 1 in Minnesota.Now......I am an owner of a trucking and a road construction firm. This may not be a big deal to you,but could you manage a company,and listen to your customers,and what they want done,and have the product / structure work without any flaws,for many years? And then want you to come back to us more more business?As for the metal handrails,they didn't break,as the plactic ones will.Do you see plastic handrails on the real locomotives? If so,lets see a picture of it. Does the paint stay on the plastic handrails for a long time,or do you have to repaint them? As for the detail part companies.....do you think its fair that Athearn should put something on a product,that takes away a small,if not a huge profit out of a company that made that product first? Its nice that you model the NH,but how long did YOU have to wait for Athearn to make the locomotives you wanted,when you could have built them yourself ?As for the Schnabel cars with the "transformer" on them,you show me an ACTUAL photo of one of those on a train,and I'll show you several transformers on a CN freight,loaded on " depressed center " flat cars.These were the right way to transport them,as they had weight/height restrictions on them.Those straight flat cars were designed for hauling sheet steel in bulk quantity,not a transformer. As for the semi trucks,they were first produced in the late 1970's,at $5.00 a piece,a great deal for them,but now it isn't worth it.Years ago there was a company called Yatming. This company produced true and accurate1/87th scale trucks,ranging from the Kenworth aerodyne conventional,and aerodyne cab-over engine,the Ford 9000 cab-over, the Peterbilt 359 conventional,and the Mack Superliner conventional,all produced in the late 1970's to the early 1980's. I own 450 models of these trucks in my collection.All were painted and decorated by Yatming,and sold at different stores. You say Horizon has a on-line catalog...... whoopdee do!!! Who's going to look on the internet, if they are near a hobby shop,let alone some people who cant afford to have a computer? Why should model train companies care about the detail part companies?..........gee Paul,the company makes the spare part for a freight car/locomotive,which in turn will make the consumer go back to the hobby shop,and want to buy more of their product,further more,there are certain parts that some manufacturers will not make anymore,so in return a different company will make the product for the person who needs it. I'm wondering if you have had to buy a part 'cause Athearn doesn't make it no more.As for scratchbuilding,Yes i do it,and I'm proud of my results.When is the last time you went out into a field,a forest, a place where you can find little pieces of rock to make a quarry,or fine sand to put in dump trucks and use some to color and use as a asphalt material,or tree branches that you can cut to make logs for pulpwood,to put in gondolas,and flat cars? For the "veterans" of this hobby,who is going to buy a RTR product,when for many, many years,they have been building kits.Why should they change their way of modeling to fullfill,something that is not going to fair well on their layout. As for hobby shops..........alot of them are far and few,..............why?.........for one thing,products are too expensive,who wants to pay for stuff,when the cost has gone up to cover a percentage of it,that has to go to a railroad( Union Pacific ) for their licensing of that product. Why are there then hobby shops selling Athearn and MDC kits at very cheap prices? Why are some hobbyshops discontinuing carrying the Athearn and MDC line on their shelves,and only "special ordering" them? Why should a hobbyshop buy mass quantities of MDC and Athearn products,when some may not even sell? Answer......Horizon signed a deal with the devil (Union Pacific). And you are so right Paul,the company (Horizon ) doesn't care about the hobby,they just want money.They don't care what they make,as long as a sucker will buy it for a great amount of money. Its interesting that you ONLY put down model railroad clubs in your area of the country.What about others in the Midwest,South,and the West coast? Do you think that they are going to change their layout wiring to fit those that have DCC trains? You stated that I am wrong in what we as modelers want............REALLY!!?........who then makes the CNW Pioneer steam locomotive,who makes the Milwaukee Road Little Joe's, the Milwaukee Road electric box cabs,the centipeedes of the the E,J,&E,a SP U50C,and since when did the ATSF,SP,PRR,and the B&O have a DD40,that Athearn produced many years ago.As for the Walther's catalog,you show me in the past years of their catalogs,where Athearn had certain products outlined in blue,that were made years ago,and are still in production.Has the NMRA ever had a review or endorsed a Athearn product recently?I agree with AntonioFP45 and what he has said recently,and as for my comments,gee Paul when did you ever put up a post or written an article on how you have built something using your imagination,and hands to create a project that others can follow? I have many people who agree with what I have said,and i'm pretty happy about it.At least I know that they ARE modelers, and enjoy the hobby. Your statement about why I am on the MR forum,let me tell you sonny boy,for 33 years of my life I have seen quite alot of changes and products come into this hobby,and as a member of the NMRA,CNWHS,Milwaukee Road,Soo Line,and the Santa Fe railroad historical societies,as well as volunteering my time to help out at train shows for these groups,I have talked with,helped and have given my knowledge of what I may have to them, to make their enjoyment of this hobby a more pleasant one,and make copies of articles that I have from my vast collection of 1960-present RMC 's, 1950-present Trains,1940-present Model Railroader,and other rail related magazines, and books to those who need and want such info. What have you done lately to help other modelers? Paul3,I dont know you,as you dont know me, and thats fine,but the one thing that I have more of,is experience in this hobby than you seem to have. Next time you are in a hobby shop,ask that person there what they have to do to make their customers come back,and what certain (if any) sacrifices they have had to do to stay in business,then maybe you can see what us "veterans" of this hobby have done lately.If you want to run your trains on schedules,timetables,waybills,etc, thats great,so be it,but dont think that you know more than any of us...'cause you dont, and neither do we,nor I. We just know what we know,from our trials,errors,knowledge,and experience and are happy to pass useful info along to you.

[Paul3]

siberianmo wrote:

QUOTE: Barf! Simply that - barf! Suffocating for those who cannot afford the prices in order to get into the hobby. Suffocating for those who don't want high-end products - just some mainstream stuff, thank you very much. No wonder these folks turn to other manufacturers.

"Barf"? What does that have to do with "suffocating"? Or was that just an expression of disgust, or something? Whichever it is, that's a first for me, and I've been on the 'net for almost a decade...

For starters, this hobby isn't for everyone. At some point, you do have to spend actual money for something, even if it's just for couplers or paint.

Secondly, there have been high priced products in model railroading for over 100 years. That's never stopped anyone before from being a model railroader on a budget, so why should anyone feel "suffocated" now because someone makes stuff one can't afford? There's tons of stuff I really want, like the new brass New Haven R-3 4-8-2, but since it's $1500, I'm not getting one. Should I feel "suffocated" because I can't afford $1500 for an engine? I also want a whole trains' worth of $40 Walthers passenger cars, but I can't afford them either (I have Athearn's instead). Am I "suffocated"? I don't think I am. I don't have everything I want, but that's life...

QUOTE: It IS true insofar as the newcomers are concerned - all are not into "state of the art" - some simply want a train set ......

Which Athearn still makes, BTW.

QUOTE: the selection of roadnames for loco's and rolling stock is so reduced for moderately priced stuff - in comparison with the catalogs that fill my model RR bookshelves.

Reduced, certainly. But not eliminated.

QUOTE: Also - just try and find "one stop shopping" for Athearn blue boxes ... nearly impossible - either "backordered" or "out of stock" seems to be the common answer when net shopping.

Since when has everything that Athearn makes been available all at the same time? As I said earlier, it was impossible to find RDC's or 200ton cranes in 1990-1. Why should it be any different now?

QUOTE: So, it IS true - for ME - repeated for clarify: Not for me, thanx! I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself, and that of course includes you.

You said that Athearn decided to "chuck" the market for entry level model railroaders. If that was true, then they would no longer make any kits whatsoever or train sets. The fact that they still, in fact, make kits and train sets makes your statement untrue. I don't deny your opinion that Athearn is not for you. But don't say they decided to "chuck" the market when they haven't. When Athearn eliminates kits and train sets, then I'll side with you.

But just remember, Athearn's in this business to make money. Killing off a profitable product line does not make sense, any more than continuing to produce a money-losing product line does not make sense.

AntonioFP45 wrote:

QUOTE: Mechanically, the Amtrak SDP40f used an upgraded SD40-2 underframe and 16 cylinder powerplant. However, the body was FP45, hands down!

Um, no it wasn't. As you yourself stated, there were several modifications made between the FP45 and the SDP40F. I surfed the net and found these pics:

F40C:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_milw40.jpg

SDP40F (flat nose):
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_amtk632.jpg

F45:
http://archive.trainpix.com/BN/EMDORIG/F45/6605.HTM

FP45:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_sf97.jpg

Are they of a common heritage? Certainly. But no model manufacturer could get away with slapping Amtrak Phase I paint on a FP45 and actually sell it as a SDP40F. Well, ok, Athearn's done stuff like that, but they have done a lot of "foobie" paint schemes over the years (like the New Haven SDP40...[xx(] ) that today a hobbyist would turn his nose up at.

I'm sorry, but these locos, while they have simular traits, are not the same and would require all new tooling for each type if they were all to be made. Remember, I stated originally that I thought there wouldn't be widespread appeal for F45/FP45's because they are western locos. You're the one that brought up SDP40F's and F40C's to refute that...but they aren't the same locos by any means. They are simular, to be sure, but they aren't the same.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

Paul, I was going to ask you if you got one of those NH SDP-40's Athearn made for your New Haven motive power[:D] It goes along with the B&O SDP-40 and DD-40 (never existed in that form) that Athearn made.

By the way we oldsters remember the 3 year wait for either the Trainmaster or SD-9 that was announced but never made for unknown reasons in the late 70's.

I still have a lot of the BB freight car kits, but I am constantly upgrading them with metal wheels and on the unbuilt kits I am replacing the cast on grabs with metal grabs. From a distance you would not notice they are Athearn.

Rick

[Anonymous]

Paul, to answer your earliar question:

FP45:
Santa Fe
Milwuakee Road

F45:
Santa Fe
Burlington Northern
Great Northern

SDP40F:
Amtrak
Santa Fe (rebuilt as SD40F-2)

F40C:
Milwuakee Road
METRA

The F40C was really a modified (and shortened) SDP40F body. The SDP40F had by far the largest steam generator of any EMD (nearly 5 feet longer than that of an FP45). The FP45 and F45s shared the same body, but the FP45 was 6 feet longer due to the steam generator.

So really, I suppose a manufacturer could get away with selling FP45/F45 bodys (F45 shorter of course) and SDP40F/F40C bodys (once again, F40C shorter) and using the same tooling for all 4.

Just a thought.

[AntonioFP45]

Paul3,

Man, this is not why I posted this thread......but oh well.......

I'm being cool with you but Geez, did you understand my last response to you at all???????!!!!!!!!!!! This is becoming redundant. Good Goobly! This reminds me of our exchanges on that Penn Central thread!! You're sharp, but you seem to like to reply to threads as though you're playing chess. Move--Counter Move---Move.............

Sorry......not interested. I come here to relax. Not argue............

Thanks for the links but........already seen 3 of them before! I have loads of EMD Cowl photos and info that I can fill up a book or this forum with! In fact, I need to save them to discs and free up some hard drive space!

I never said that you can slap paint on an FP45 and pass it as an Amtrak SDP40f! Absolutely not! Don't you remember, Athearn did that back in 1975 or 76! Yes, I was a teenager when it splashed onto the scene. Modelers were excited.

All I've done was correctly explain to you the differences BETWEEN THE PROTOTYPES! By the time EMD finished the mods, you had different locomotive bodies. Of course the END RESULTS were different! Just as by the time Pontiac finished modifying the Camaro, a new animal was born, the Firebird! But the 1968 Pontiac Firebird's foundation WAS STILL that 1966 Camaro! Any diehard hot rod fan will tell you that! Can you see the correlation I'm making? I assumed you already understood that.

I mentioned that EMD changed the stock FP45 body in creating the SDP40f and F40C. That's what the word "modified" means. Of course there were physical differences!

Now to the Athearn HO models:

The basic point to my earlier mention of cowls is that just as Life Like (o.k, their Chinese manufacturer) took their P2K GP7/GP9 mold and was able to create the GP18, so Athearn could have taken the FP45 mold years back and (yes, it would have still cost money) and modify it to produce an SDP40f or F40C, if they so wished back in the 1970s and 80s. I used to work with metal and plastics. Modifying Molds and Dies is much cheaper $$ than creating one from the ground up! Resin Kit makers are also able to do this as well. So "If" there had been an interest in the F40C or SDP40f, (and yes, I remember there was!) then Athearn would have had the advantage since they already had the molds/dies for the EMD 45 series Cowls.

But as was mentioned, Irv didn't want to spend money. Otherwise he could have easily created the DDA40X since he already had the GP35 body and F45 cab to do so if had chosen to! Instead Bachmann came out with the DDA40X. Though it was a poor runner, many UP modelers bought it, and of course modified it rather than go for the Athearn DD40, of which the prototype never existed! Yet, another example of where Athearn missed the boat. I'm only guessing, but since Athearn was already profitable, it might have likely been no big deal to Mr. Athearn.

Anyway Paul, I'm through kicking this horse around with you. Go ahead and reply with more chess style counter moves if you wish! I'll gladly reply to your posts on other threads, but I'm moving on and looking forward to reading the other responses here. Input has been great. Athearn e-mailed me back stating that they will be checking this thread! Now that's a compliment to all of us on this forum!

This thread is not about cowls, but about views and thoughts as to what Athearn's done, could have done, and should do IN OUR OPINIONS, to effectively compete with companies such as Life Like. Whether you agree or not, fact is that Life Like and other manufacturers have gained many customers that were once die hard Athearn customers such as myself and the friend I mentioned a couple of posts back.

I have no doubt that Athearn will stay in business. But currently not being in the Walther's catalog and continuing to produce "certain models" with noisy drives IS NOT going to help Athearn at all! Like I stated earlier, my friend who makes good money $, declared he's no longer buying Athearn locos! That's not good for Athearn.

However, based on the SD45T-2 there are good signs. Let's hope Athearn keeps moving forward!

Peace!.

[davekelly]

Still would like to see a slightly modified blue box kit. Same kit, except with the Rail Power Product bodies. Yup, I know that is kinda like the new RTR GP35. But this would be a kit. Perhaps they could start with the SD45 and SD40. Same chassis, different bodies. I would assume that it would be a little bit more expensive than the old blue boxes, but would have a prototypical thin hood and a little better detailing. Would anyone be game to buy a few?

[Paul3]

cnwfan11 wrote:

QUOTE: First off,you state that you got serious into MR in the 1990's. I've been into model railroading since I was 3 years old.(birth year 1970)

While I got "serious" about model railroading in 1990, I've been into model railroading since the day I came home from the hospital and my grandfather gave me a handmade wooden train after I was born in 1975. [:)] My father's always had a layout (he switched from Lionel to HO in the 1950's), so it's something I grew up with. Heck, even my mom still has her old Marx trains she had as a kid. The stuff I played with was "el cheapo" junk like Tyco, old Life Like, old Bachmann, etc. This was the "safe" stuff for me to play with, so I know well all the frustrations of these models.

QUOTE: Secondly,have you worked in a hobby shop?

No, but I've worked in a bookstore for 16 years. And I know that if I asked someone what they thought of the store and they told me that it was (censored), I would have a hard time listening to the rest of their statement with any kind of an open mind.

QUOTE: Now......I am an owner of a trucking and a road construction firm. This may not be a big deal to you,but could you manage a company,and listen to your customers,and what they want done,and have the product / structure work without any flaws,for many years? And then want you to come back to us more more business?

Seriously, that's a great achievement for someone who's only 35...but I still have no idea what that has to do with the subject at hand.

QUOTE: As for the metal handrails,they didn't break,as the plactic ones will.

Really? I've never seen modern plastic handrails break through non-abusive normal use. Sure, if you bend it back and forth often enough or try to tie a knot with it, they will break, but then so will wire. Put it this way, you can take most plastic handrails and bend them in a complete circle and they won't break. The new "engineering" plastics they are using these days is good stuff.

QUOTE: Do you see plastic handrails on the real locomotives? If so,lets see a picture of it.

No, but then you don't see a lot of plastic bodies on real locomotives, either.

QUOTE: Does the paint stay on the plastic handrails for a long time,or do you have to repaint them?

Most, but not all, handrails these days are molded in color, not painted. The Kato ones have seperate corner handrails that are molded in white, and the body rails are molded in RR appropriate colors. And even if you wanted to paint them, Model Flex paint by Badger sticks pretty good provided you wa***hem first, and Pactra (IIRC) makes paint for R/C cars that won't chip too easily either.

QUOTE: As for the detail part companies.....do you think its fair that Athearn should put something on a product,that takes away a small,if not a huge profit out of a company that made that product first?

Yes, I think it's fair. They are in business for themselves, not to support a host of smaller companies. I'm surprised you aren't complaining that they are actually painting their models because that's negatively impacting paint and decal companies like Testors, Badger, and Microscale.

QUOTE: Its nice that you model the NH,but how long did YOU have to wait for Athearn to make the locomotives you wanted,when you could have built them yourself ?

Well, they've done PA's, GP9's and SW1200's since before I was born. For the rest of the NH's roster, I bought Atlas S-2's and RS-11's, Boswer H16-44's, and lately a lot of P2K items like DL109's, FA-1's, FB-1's, S-1's, etc. But this year, Athearn is going to be releasing a re-tooled MDC RS-3 in New Haven, so I'm happy with them.

QUOTE: Those straight flat cars were designed for hauling sheet steel in bulk quantity,not a transformer.

To be honest, I don't know what that thing is that Athearn put on their heavy duty flat. I just know it's difficult to prove something never happened, and in railroading, there's almost a prototype for everything. [:)] BTW, the shorter heavy duty flats that Athearn just released were designed for gun carrigages by the MILW, yet after WWII they were released into general car service. So who can say that these larger heavy duty flats with the giant thing-a-ma-gig on it [i]never[i/] happened? I know I can't.

QUOTE: As for the semi trucks,they were first produced in the late 1970's,at $5.00 a piece,a great deal for them,but now it isn't worth it.

What changed?

QUOTE: Years ago there was a company called Yatming. This company produced true and accurate1/87th scale trucks,ranging from the Kenworth aerodyne conventional,and aerodyne cab-over engine,the Ford 9000 cab-over, the Peterbilt 359 conventional,and the Mack Superliner conventional,all produced in the late 1970's to the early 1980's. I own 450 models of these trucks in my collection.All were painted and decorated by Yatming,and sold at different stores.

I have no idea what this has to do with our debate. Perhaps I'm just being more dense than usual, but I don't get the point behind the above.

QUOTE: You say Horizon has a on-line catalog...... whoopdee do!!! Who's going to look on the internet, if they are near a hobby shop,let alone some people who cant afford to have a computer?

If one can't afford a computer these days with internet access, they can't afford to buy the stuff Athearn makes. Especially considering that most town libraries have free internet access. And a lot of people are looking to the internet for all kinds of information, so why not a hobby catalog? I look up stuff at Walthers.com all the time. My problem with Horizon and Athearn is that their online catalog is plain awful to navigate.

QUOTE: Why should model train companies care about the detail part companies?..........gee Paul,the company makes the spare part for a freight car/locomotive,which in turn will make the consumer go back to the hobby shop,and want to buy more of their product,further more,there are certain parts that some manufacturers will not make anymore,so in return a different company will make the product for the person who needs it.

Ok, let me see if I've got you: you think that Athearn or anyone else should not put detail parts on locos/cars because it will kill off all the hobby shops, and therefore doom the hobby. If that were the case, wouldn't all the hobby shops be dead by now? I mean, it's been 16 years since P2K started adding seperate detail parts to models...how long should we wait to see the results before we make a judgement call?

QUOTE: I'm wondering if you have had to buy a part 'cause Athearn doesn't make it no more.

Like what? What detail parts does Athearn make that's better than Details West or Details Associates or some other firm? Their handrails stanchions, for example, are poor at best, just cheap stamped sheet metal. If I'm going to take the time to install them, I'll buy Smokey Valley handrails long before Athearn's.

QUOTE: As for scratchbuilding,Yes i do it,and I'm proud of my results.When is the last time you went out into a field,a forest, a place where you can find little pieces of rock to make a quarry,or fine sand to put in dump trucks and use some to color and use as a asphalt material,or tree branches that you can cut to make logs for pulpwood,to put in gondolas,and flat cars?

Well, since I'm still building my new 25' x 50' layout and adding track to it, so I haven't got into any scenery as of yet. But 10 years ago I used to do as you describe for my old layout. And for my club layout, we have other people doing scenery. I'm one of the few who can solder wires without burning myself [:)], so that's what I do for the layout.

QUOTE: For the "veterans" of this hobby,who is going to buy a RTR product,when for many, many years,they have been building kits.

Apparently, lots of them. Look at all the new products that are RTR. Somebody's buying them.

QUOTE: Why should they change their way of modeling to fullfill,something that is not going to fair well on their layout.

Why wouldn't they "fair well" on their layout? I don't get that one.

QUOTE: As for hobby shops..........alot of them are far and few,..............why?.........for one thing,products are too expensive,who wants to pay for stuff,when the cost has gone up to cover a percentage of it,that has to go to a railroad( Union Pacific ) for their licensing of that product.

You won't find me arguing in favor of licensing costs...that I'm totally against as we are getting screwed by corporate lawyers. Even so, at worst, it's another $5 on a $100 engine. As much as I detest this extra fee, it's not stopping too many people.

But as for prices being too high...just take a look. The prices can't be that high if the stuff is still selling. And that's what's happening.

QUOTE: Why are there then hobby shops selling Athearn and MDC kits at very cheap prices? Why are some hobbyshops discontinuing carrying the Athearn and MDC line on their shelves,and only "special ordering" them?

Mostly because they are offloading them because they can't sell them for anything close to MSRP. Or, they can't get a Horizon account, so they are no longer going to carry Athearn and MDC and are blowing them out to be rid of them.

QUOTE: Why should a hobbyshop buy mass quantities of MDC and Athearn products,when some may not even sell? Answer......Horizon signed a deal with the devil (Union Pacific).

I think what you are saying is that the licensing fee collected by UP is making hobby shops no longer carry Athearn/MDC products due to the price increase. There's only one problem with that theory...hobby shops stopped carrying mass quantities of Athearn long before UP started collecting cash from Athearn.

QUOTE: And you are so right Paul,the company (Horizon ) doesn't care about the hobby,they just want money.They don't care what they make,as long as a sucker will buy it for a great amount of money.

It's the American way.

QUOTE: Its interesting that you ONLY put down model railroad clubs in your area of the country.What about others in the Midwest,South,and the West coast?

How would I know what other clubs are using all over the country? I listed the clubs I knew personally, that I've actually been to.

QUOTE: Do you think that they are going to change their layout wiring to fit those that have DCC trains?

Yes, I do. DCC is that good.

QUOTE: You stated that I am wrong in what we as modelers want............REALLY!!?........who then makes the CNW Pioneer steam locomotive,who makes the Milwaukee Road Little Joe's, the Milwaukee Road electric box cabs,the centipeedes of the the E,J,&E,a SP U50C,and since when did the ATSF,SP,PRR,and the B&O have a DD40,that Athearn produced many years ago.

I have no idea what you are talking about, but I'm guessing that most of the above (except for the DD40's in bogus paint schemes) are avialable in brass, right?

QUOTE: As for the Walther's catalog,you show me in the past years of their catalogs,where Athearn had certain products outlined in blue,that were made years ago,and are still in production.

(shrug) Okay. I'll have to dig out my old Walthers catalogs at home, and maybe a few others at my club and I'll get back to you on that. It will take a few days...

QUOTE: Has the NMRA ever had a review or endorsed a Athearn product recently?

No, but then they never have to my knowledge. Only Bachmann sends their cars/locos into the NMRA for a C&I sticker. Who cares if the NMRA endorses it or not? As long as it's compatible with the rest of my stock, it doesn't matter to me.

QUOTE: I agree with AntonioFP45 and what he has said recently,and as for my comments,gee Paul when did you ever put up a post or written an article on how you have built something using your imagination,and hands to create a project that others can follow?

The largest thing I've done here is post my review/how-to article on the Branchline passenger coach kits which I still get comments on. It ran seven pages long, and was posted here, on Atlas, and on the New Haven Forum in addition to my club's newsletter. Does that count? I've also posted reviews of the Atlas NE-6 caboose, the Athearn 50' TOFC, the P1K RS-11, and others (mostly on the New Haven Forum).

QUOTE: At least I know that they ARE modelers, and enjoy the hobby.

I'm a modeler, and I, too, enjoy the hobby...

QUOTE: Your statement about why I am on the MR forum,let me tell you sonny boy,...

"Sonny boy"? Um, I'm only 5 years younger than you.

QUOTE: ...for 33 years of my life I have seen quite alot of changes and products come into this hobby,and as a member of the NMRA,CNWHS,Milwaukee Road,Soo Line,and the Santa Fe railroad historical societies,as well as volunteering my time to help out at train shows for these groups,I have talked with,helped and have given my knowledge of what I may have to them, to make their enjoyment of this hobby a more pleasant one,and make copies of articles that I have from my vast collection of 1960-present RMC 's, 1950-present Trains,1940-present Model Railroader,and other rail related magazines, and books to those who need and want such info. What have you done lately to help other modelers?

If you want to compare resumes... Since I only have a strong interest in the New Haven, I can't say that I've been a member of half a dozen groups. However, I have been a member of the NHRHTA since 1990, a member of my club since 1993 (and a junior member before that). I staff about 8 train shows a year in the Eastern Mass. area as a volunteer for the NHRHTA since 1991, selling from our dealer tables. I give tours of my home layout to boy scouts and cub scouts and anyone else who shows an interest. My father and I this winter gave a talk at our local library about model railroading using the "World's Greatest Hobby" campaign materials. On the New Haven side, I've made copies of company material for folks that request what I have, and I've been a regular poster on the New Haven Forum since it was on the original RR.net. I've been posting on the 'net since 1998 on rec.models.railroad, and I'd lurked there since 1996. On the manufacturing side, I was helpful pushing the New Haven Caboose decal set out the door at Microscale (take a look at the instruction sheet, my name's on it), I also was the one that got them to do the MBTA purple as a Trim Film, and I was the one that helped Athearn produce the New Haven 50' TOFC with NETCo. trailers (they sent me the pre-production model with upside down logos on the trailers...quite amusing, that). Anything else you'd like to know?

QUOTE: Paul3,I dont know you,as you dont know me, and thats fine,but the one thing that I have more of,is experience in this hobby than you seem to have.

Oh? I'll grant you 5 years, but I'm not some newbie.

QUOTE: Next time you are in a hobby shop,ask that person there what they have to do to make their customers come back,and what certain (if any) sacrifices they have had to do to stay in business,then maybe you can see what us "veterans" of this hobby have done lately.

I know all about small business folks and the sacrifices they make to stay in business...trust me. My folks have been running one since 1989.

QUOTE: If you want to run your trains on schedules,timetables,waybills,etc, thats great,so be it,but dont think that you know more than any of us...'cause you dont, and neither do we,nor I.

So nobody knows more than anybody else? Somehow, I think I may know a teensy-tiny bit more about the New Haven than you or most people on this forum (except for Rick Abramson, he's on here somewhere). [:)]

jesionowski wrote:

QUOTE: Paul, I was going to ask you if you got one of those NH SDP-40's Athearn made for your New Haven motive power

No, but I almost did. I did manage to get the ABBA set of F's and a Walthers E-60F before I figured out that not everything they make in HO scale is real. Boy, was I ticked.

4884bigboy wrote:

QUOTE: Paul, to answer your earliar question...

Wow. Man, the DL109 had more original owners than the most of these? Yikes.

AntonioFP45 wrote:

QUOTE: I'm being cool with you but Geez, did you understand my last response to you at all???????!!!!!!!!!!! This is becoming redundant. Good Goobly! This reminds me of our exchanges on that Penn Central thread!! You're sharp, but you seem to like to reply to threads as though you're playing chess. Move, Counter Move. Sorry......not interested. I come here to relax. Not argue............

Well, as they said on r.m.r...shift happens (as in, thread shift). [:)]

QUOTE: I never said that you can slap paint on an FP45 and pass it as an Amtrak SDP40f! Absolutely not! Don't you remember, Athearn did that back in 1975 or76! Yes, I was a teenager when it splashed onto the scene.

That's cool. But remember, we were talking F45/FP45's, and then suddenly you were throwing Amtrak and Metra units at me. (shrug) I'm just responding to what you posted.

QUOTE: Can you see the correlation I'm making?

I guess not. Like I said, we were talking F45/FP45, and from what I understood you to be saying, these would be more popular than I thought they'd be because Amtrak and Metra had cowl units. Was that not your point?

QUOTE: Now to the models: The basic point to my earlier mention of cowls is that just as Life Like (o.k, their Chinese manufacturer) took their GP9 mold and was able to create the GP18, so Athearn could have taken the FP45 mold years back and (yes, it would have still cost money) and modify it to produce an SDP40f or F40C, if they so wished back in the 1970s and 80s.

Well, for starters, they started with the GP18 and then made GP9's.

Secondly, if they were to simply modify the existing molds from the F45 to the F40C, that would forever prohibit them from ever re-releasing the older model. Why would they do that?

QUOTE: Modifying Molds and Dies is much cheaper $$ than creating one from the ground up!

I agree. However, it would prevent them from making the older model again.

QUOTE: I'm only guessing, but since Athearn was already profitable, it might have likely been no big deal to Mr. Athearn.

Totally agree.

Paul A. Cutler III
******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
******************

[rrinker]

About the die modifications - Athearn has precedence for that, at least according to the history that appeared in an MR article in the 80's. The GP30 was found to be deficient in detailing, and since EMD has superseded the GP30 with the GP35, the larger GP35 was cut into the old GP30 dies - thus no more Athearn GP30's.

--Randy

[GMTRacing]

Well at least you kids fight nicely. For what it's worth as a new returnee, I buy what i see is NHRR and have a few kits. As I learn more about rolling stock and the details needed for good operation I will replace or modify accordingly. The bottom line here for most of us is that if it fits the layout and looks right we'll get it. I will probably never tackle a loco kit, but if I do I would consider price and value and accuracy. If I were one of you historians I doubt I would expect museum quality "for free", but it is important to have cheaper alternatives open for entry level hobbyists[2c] J.R.

[Anonymous]

It will be interesting to see the effect Atlas' new "Trainman" line of cheaper locos and cars will have on Athearn products.

If they have Atlas quality at Athearn price .....

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey

It will be interesting to see the effect Atlas' new "Trainman" line of cheaper locos and cars will have on Athearn products.

If they have Atlas quality at Athearn price .....

GBailey,

Interesting. I have not heard of the "Trainman" line. Thanks for the heads up. I'll go to the Atlas website as I'm assuming it will have the info.

I'm wondering if this is comparable to LIfe LIke's Proto 1000 line. If this new Atlas line still retains the Atlas power drive quality or a close resemblence to it, then competition will heat up even more! Better for us all.

Thanks![;)]

[simon1966]

The Atlas site does not say much about the HO scale models, other than that the Trainman line is a recognition of the fac that the Atlas master line has gone upscale and out of the price range of the begining hobbiest. I think that this is an interesting move on the part of Atlas and I look forward to seeing what transpires in HO from them.

[selector]

I'm really enjoying this, so please keep up the ripostes (and yes, the tone is okay, no red faces that I can tell, yet).

This sort of thing happens at symposia where PhD holders argue about conflicting theories. Somewhere in all of the myre lies the truth, but mutual respect is always at the fore of the discussion.

Well done, fellows.