Poor Athearn! I like them, but they keep missing the knocks of opportunity!

[simon1966]

Thanks Paul for the research. This sort of puts a period at the end of some of the doom and gloom threads we had during the Hirizon take over era a few months ago. As I have mentioned before, I am not a huge fan of the BB from an accuracy point of view, but they fulfil a great need for my modelling with my boys. It is good to get a perspective on the production comparisons, I had always had the impression that while the BB kits were still in production, that it was far fewer kits.

[Paul3]

cnwfan11 wrote:

QUOTE: As for the Walther's catalog,you show me in the past years of their catalogs,where Athearn had certain products outlined in blue,that were made years ago,and are still in production.

This is a follow up to my own post to answer the above question...

I went to my club last night, and pulled some copies of the Walthers catalog...specifically 1992, 1996, and 2000, and wrote down what type of car kit Athearn was offering for each year (FYI, Walthers did not "outline in blue" anything in these three catalogs). I also visited the Athearn website today and wrote down all the car kits listed on the website that were not labled "Temporaily Out Of Production" or "Discontinued". These are the results:

In 1992, Athearn produced 36 different kinds of freight car kits. In 1996, it was 45. In 2000, it was 67. Today, it's 33.

Several kits went in and out of production since 1992. For example, the 200 Ton Crane was in production in 1992 and 2000, but not in 1996 or today.

Other kits were not in production in 1992, but have since been released again. Such as the 40' Ice Bunker Wood Reefer, the 86' Hi Cubes, or the 50' TOFC.

Still others were in production, then dropped again, such as the Auto Loader, the IMPACKs, or the 62' Tank.

In conclusion, I can now prove that Athearn has continually shifted items in and out of production for at least the last 13 years, and that the current un-availability of certain Athearn items is nothing new. Furthermore, that today, Athearn offers almost as many different kinds of kits today (33) than they did in 1992 (36).

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

But don't forget, H-D had import duties set to protect them while they regrouped. Athearn has not got that, and they now import from China just like Life-Like and Atlas.

Rick

[davekelly]

It took Harley Davidson a kick in the pants from the Japanese companies to finally revamp its program. Now look at them. I guess many companies get the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mind set and get taken by surprise.

[AntonioFP45]

Simon1966,

Man! You've so realistically analyzed and summed up what's been happening! Simple and straightforward.

After agonizingly, going back & forth with Paul3 and reading some very good comments from other modelers, I still could not put my finger on it. But your comment has indeed answered several questions I had spinning in my head.

Traditionally in the past, (up until the early 70s) business economic leaders that were in the market place lead, stayed there for a very long time as they were often striving to be innovative and make product improvements, though sometimes deliberately slow. Companies like GE, GM, Westinghouse, and IBM were good examples of this pattern.

You're so right in that nowadays, its rarely that comfortable market leader that makes the strides. It's almost always some underdog challenger that's not taken seriously, or some "small potatoes underling" (remember Bill Gates?) that comes up to the plate and starts clubbing homeruns like Hank Aaron, catching others in this tough market game off guard!

For years I had thought that Athearn was the market leader and it was at one time. But I see now that the scenario has changed greatly from the 1990s, and Athearn's current management group is very likely "a cautious, market follower".

Given that Athearn's competition has gained a very strong foothold on the market in the past decade, this perhaps, is the best approach Athearn can take today.

[simon1966]

The MRR industry has undergone a series of significant periods of market redefinition. Exisiting companies, or even new companies have re-defined the market as a result of a significant step forward in technology or production methods. It is rarely the market leader, sitting comfortably at the head of the market that creates these sudden shifts. P2K did it to Athearn. I have no doubt that Athearn execs and marketing folks probably scoffed at the idea that significant numbers of hobbiests would pay more than double to get a P2K. Now look what is going on, many of us are quite happy to drop $200 odd for a sound equipped BLI, again, more than doubling the cost of a loco. I think that it is fair to say that MRC were sitting comfortably at the head of the DC control market when Digitrax and NCE et al redefined the US control market.

I think that what is suprising about Athearn is that they have been very slow to respond in any way, and are very much in a market follower mode than leader mode right now. It will be very interesting to see if the move by Atlas to re-enter the entry level market will have a profound impact on what happens next.

[davekelly]

Antonio,

I remember in the late 80's I made the switch over from N to HO. My decision was pretty much based on the existance of Athearn! Inexpensive, good running equipment. I remember wishing that Athearn would make N Scale blue boxes and thinking that Athearn would make a killing if they did!

Looking foward to your next thread!

Dave

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Antonio,

You've started a few topics the last few months that have taken off like banshees!! Love reading everyone's opinions, though!

HI Dave!

To me this has been amazing! I honestly expected the average 15 to 17 replies as there have been several topics in just the past 2 years. Having been an Athearn customer since 1976, I wanted to take a different approach in discussing Athearn. Especially since this industry has changed greatly in just the past 10 years!.

Just my opinion, but I sincerely felt that Athearn should have been out in the front leading and not taking a back seat to Life Like P2K/P1K, Bachmann Spectrum, as well as the other "comparable" competition. Back in the late 80s, the guys in my LHS were talking rumors that LL was going to introduce a series of quality models. No joking, I remember that I laughed! As you all can see, I ate humble pie years later!

IMHO, I would have wanted to see Athearn produce the models that P2K has had since the 90s. Yes, Genesis was introduced, but it was LL that came out with the quiet running E7, E6, and E8. It was LL that came out with correctly scaled GP7, GP9, GP18, SD7, SD9, etc. The P1K RDC is a popular unit. Again I still say: Athearn missed these opportunities! Yes, the Protos were initially much more expensive than Blue Boxes, but even early on a lot of Blue Box customers were won over! Every LHS I visited had a difficult time keeping P2Ks on store shelves, though this changed later due to overproduction from LL...............which benefited us, pricewise!

Genesis seemed to have been MOSTLY concentrating on the newer, modern diesels, though they (and everyone else!) brought out a nice looking F unit.

But inspite of some of the views that Athearn didn't need to retool their old line, I still strongly disagree. LL proved that there was very strong interest in correctly scaled older diesels. How many of you reading this own P2K and P1K 1st generation equipment?.........quite a number of you I'm sure! BTW:P2K freight cars and wheel sets are also selling well. How many of you installed P2K wheels on your rolling stock? I'm sure Life Like is still counting their $$ on wheel sets!

As I stressed, my views on Athearn were not to be taken negatively. My Athearn freight cars are not going anywhere and I'm keeping my cowls and U-Boats. This thread was intended to be more of the old "Hindsight is 20/20".

Though, my opinion still is unchanged that Athearn had the opportunity and did not go for it. I do understand that Athearn is healthy and moving ahead. Of this, I'm very glad!

[davekelly]

gbailey,

Yes, you are exactly correct on that one. A lawyer has a duty to tell his/her client what the law is and the possible options that can be pursued. Would you want to hire a lawyer that would not lay out all your options? It is up to the client to decide on the course of action.

If your neighbor accidently broke your fence and I was your attorney and you asked me what your options were I would say you could (1) fix the fence yourself, (2) hope that your neighbor would fix the fence (3) get together with your neighbor and work out a solution (you never know, the two of you might decide to get together and replace the whole thing with a better looking one! win-win!) or (4) you could sue him. I would point out that suing him would take time and money and most likely result in terrible neighborly relations (the only real winner in that case would be my son who would get a nicer birthday present). If you decided to sue him, would it be my fault?

[Anonymous]

I picked up an Athearn after a 10 year or plus no purchase Athearn policy.After a diet of Atlasand P2k it was hard to look at a coffee grinder Athearn.Well this week i picked up a CP GP35 these are my thoughts on it. Still no comparison to P2K or Atla but then again its cheaper in price too! Paint was fair ,thick on rivits and on close inspection not as crisp as Atlas or P2K.Drive was smooth but still noisey.No lighted number boards..........that was a downer for me though the lights were bright,Decoder fit in like a charm and DCC conversion was easy.Detail on trucks was not crisp but acceptable.Basically a blue box Athearn in a RTR repackaged format! Screw on couplers nice to see instead of the dreaded Athearn clips.Of course this is the lower end of Athearn and maybe they are catering to the toy train crowd with these models with unrefinement at a lower price!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Antonio,


Corporarate lawyers did not bring about the UP licensing fee. Such decisions are made by the corporate heads.

But based on legal input as to what is required to protect their copyrights.

[davekelly]

Antonio,

You've started a few topics the last few months that have taken off like banshees!! Love reading everyone's opinions, though!

Paul,

Corporarate lawyers did not bring about the UP licensing fee. Such decisions are made by the corporate heads.

[sebamat]

All the Athear story has, IMHO quite a lot of similitude to the european LIMA brand. I only hope it will not end up the same....

Lima in the 70s and early 80s had a very broad line of 'almost prototopical' trains models (several hundreds different molds, very impressive, from japanese bullet trains throu south africa and australia and all the europeans RR. Only US trains were not represented) that were very pricey and sold most trough toy shops. Probably half of the kids who started train modelling in europe did it with a Lima set. And they made money...

But in in 80s their quality became target of a lot of criticism from 'serious modelers' , complaining that they were not prototocal etc etc , comparing Lima's models with other brands that sold for 3-4 times those prices.
But yes, in the meantime technology has improved a lot and their motors were outdated, and the detail level increased a lot, so that modellers got used to higher quality and hiher prices (yes!).

An here started the crux: LIMA came up with a few really better models (but still not so good as the competitors, after all you do not create top-of-the-line quality overnight), but inevitably the prices sky rocketed. So they were no more offered in supermarket and toy shops, but in the hobby shops sellers and buyers still were 'snobbish' about Lima.

The number of new models dropped to very few, there were some 'revamping' of the better 'old' models but they never caught a place in the 'modeler market'. (would you buy for 20$ a model that, beside some small change in the coupling is the same few years before you paid3$?).

To cut it short.... a few years later they had some models with oustanding critics in the modelerpress and at the same time were bankrupt.
Rivarossi bought them, never really changed things, and a few years later went belly up too.

I hope Athearn will find a way to 'reposition' their products from the low cost market (Bluebox) to the high quality, but it is surely not easy, as compettitors are not there thappy o welcome them...... and customer will give them only few chances tho show that they made the switch.

sebastiano

[selector]

I'm really enjoying this, so please keep up the ripostes (and yes, the tone is okay, no red faces that I can tell, yet).

This sort of thing happens at symposia where PhD holders argue about conflicting theories. Somewhere in all of the myre lies the truth, but mutual respect is always at the fore of the discussion.

Well done, fellows.

[simon1966]

The Atlas site does not say much about the HO scale models, other than that the Trainman line is a recognition of the fac that the Atlas master line has gone upscale and out of the price range of the begining hobbiest. I think that this is an interesting move on the part of Atlas and I look forward to seeing what transpires in HO from them.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey

It will be interesting to see the effect Atlas' new "Trainman" line of cheaper locos and cars will have on Athearn products.

If they have Atlas quality at Athearn price .....

GBailey,

Interesting. I have not heard of the "Trainman" line. Thanks for the heads up. I'll go to the Atlas website as I'm assuming it will have the info.

I'm wondering if this is comparable to LIfe LIke's Proto 1000 line. If this new Atlas line still retains the Atlas power drive quality or a close resemblence to it, then competition will heat up even more! Better for us all.

Thanks![;)]

[Anonymous]

It will be interesting to see the effect Atlas' new "Trainman" line of cheaper locos and cars will have on Athearn products.

If they have Atlas quality at Athearn price .....

[GMTRacing]

Well at least you kids fight nicely. For what it's worth as a new returnee, I buy what i see is NHRR and have a few kits. As I learn more about rolling stock and the details needed for good operation I will replace or modify accordingly. The bottom line here for most of us is that if it fits the layout and looks right we'll get it. I will probably never tackle a loco kit, but if I do I would consider price and value and accuracy. If I were one of you historians I doubt I would expect museum quality "for free", but it is important to have cheaper alternatives open for entry level hobbyists[2c] J.R.

[rrinker]

About the die modifications - Athearn has precedence for that, at least according to the history that appeared in an MR article in the 80's. The GP30 was found to be deficient in detailing, and since EMD has superseded the GP30 with the GP35, the larger GP35 was cut into the old GP30 dies - thus no more Athearn GP30's.

--Randy

[Paul3]

cnwfan11 wrote:

QUOTE: First off,you state that you got serious into MR in the 1990's. I've been into model railroading since I was 3 years old.(birth year 1970)

While I got "serious" about model railroading in 1990, I've been into model railroading since the day I came home from the hospital and my grandfather gave me a handmade wooden train after I was born in 1975. [:)] My father's always had a layout (he switched from Lionel to HO in the 1950's), so it's something I grew up with. Heck, even my mom still has her old Marx trains she had as a kid. The stuff I played with was "el cheapo" junk like Tyco, old Life Like, old Bachmann, etc. This was the "safe" stuff for me to play with, so I know well all the frustrations of these models.

QUOTE: Secondly,have you worked in a hobby shop?

No, but I've worked in a bookstore for 16 years. And I know that if I asked someone what they thought of the store and they told me that it was (censored), I would have a hard time listening to the rest of their statement with any kind of an open mind.

QUOTE: Now......I am an owner of a trucking and a road construction firm. This may not be a big deal to you,but could you manage a company,and listen to your customers,and what they want done,and have the product / structure work without any flaws,for many years? And then want you to come back to us more more business?

Seriously, that's a great achievement for someone who's only 35...but I still have no idea what that has to do with the subject at hand.

QUOTE: As for the metal handrails,they didn't break,as the plactic ones will.

Really? I've never seen modern plastic handrails break through non-abusive normal use. Sure, if you bend it back and forth often enough or try to tie a knot with it, they will break, but then so will wire. Put it this way, you can take most plastic handrails and bend them in a complete circle and they won't break. The new "engineering" plastics they are using these days is good stuff.

QUOTE: Do you see plastic handrails on the real locomotives? If so,lets see a picture of it.

No, but then you don't see a lot of plastic bodies on real locomotives, either.

QUOTE: Does the paint stay on the plastic handrails for a long time,or do you have to repaint them?

Most, but not all, handrails these days are molded in color, not painted. The Kato ones have seperate corner handrails that are molded in white, and the body rails are molded in RR appropriate colors. And even if you wanted to paint them, Model Flex paint by Badger sticks pretty good provided you wa***hem first, and Pactra (IIRC) makes paint for R/C cars that won't chip too easily either.

QUOTE: As for the detail part companies.....do you think its fair that Athearn should put something on a product,that takes away a small,if not a huge profit out of a company that made that product first?

Yes, I think it's fair. They are in business for themselves, not to support a host of smaller companies. I'm surprised you aren't complaining that they are actually painting their models because that's negatively impacting paint and decal companies like Testors, Badger, and Microscale.

QUOTE: Its nice that you model the NH,but how long did YOU have to wait for Athearn to make the locomotives you wanted,when you could have built them yourself ?

Well, they've done PA's, GP9's and SW1200's since before I was born. For the rest of the NH's roster, I bought Atlas S-2's and RS-11's, Boswer H16-44's, and lately a lot of P2K items like DL109's, FA-1's, FB-1's, S-1's, etc. But this year, Athearn is going to be releasing a re-tooled MDC RS-3 in New Haven, so I'm happy with them.

QUOTE: Those straight flat cars were designed for hauling sheet steel in bulk quantity,not a transformer.

To be honest, I don't know what that thing is that Athearn put on their heavy duty flat. I just know it's difficult to prove something never happened, and in railroading, there's almost a prototype for everything. [:)] BTW, the shorter heavy duty flats that Athearn just released were designed for gun carrigages by the MILW, yet after WWII they were released into general car service. So who can say that these larger heavy duty flats with the giant thing-a-ma-gig on it [i]never[i/] happened? I know I can't.

QUOTE: As for the semi trucks,they were first produced in the late 1970's,at $5.00 a piece,a great deal for them,but now it isn't worth it.

What changed?

QUOTE: Years ago there was a company called Yatming. This company produced true and accurate1/87th scale trucks,ranging from the Kenworth aerodyne conventional,and aerodyne cab-over engine,the Ford 9000 cab-over, the Peterbilt 359 conventional,and the Mack Superliner conventional,all produced in the late 1970's to the early 1980's. I own 450 models of these trucks in my collection.All were painted and decorated by Yatming,and sold at different stores.

I have no idea what this has to do with our debate. Perhaps I'm just being more dense than usual, but I don't get the point behind the above.

QUOTE: You say Horizon has a on-line catalog...... whoopdee do!!! Who's going to look on the internet, if they are near a hobby shop,let alone some people who cant afford to have a computer?

If one can't afford a computer these days with internet access, they can't afford to buy the stuff Athearn makes. Especially considering that most town libraries have free internet access. And a lot of people are looking to the internet for all kinds of information, so why not a hobby catalog? I look up stuff at Walthers.com all the time. My problem with Horizon and Athearn is that their online catalog is plain awful to navigate.

QUOTE: Why should model train companies care about the detail part companies?..........gee Paul,the company makes the spare part for a freight car/locomotive,which in turn will make the consumer go back to the hobby shop,and want to buy more of their product,further more,there are certain parts that some manufacturers will not make anymore,so in return a different company will make the product for the person who needs it.

Ok, let me see if I've got you: you think that Athearn or anyone else should not put detail parts on locos/cars because it will kill off all the hobby shops, and therefore doom the hobby. If that were the case, wouldn't all the hobby shops be dead by now? I mean, it's been 16 years since P2K started adding seperate detail parts to models...how long should we wait to see the results before we make a judgement call?

QUOTE: I'm wondering if you have had to buy a part 'cause Athearn doesn't make it no more.

Like what? What detail parts does Athearn make that's better than Details West or Details Associates or some other firm? Their handrails stanchions, for example, are poor at best, just cheap stamped sheet metal. If I'm going to take the time to install them, I'll buy Smokey Valley handrails long before Athearn's.

QUOTE: As for scratchbuilding,Yes i do it,and I'm proud of my results.When is the last time you went out into a field,a forest, a place where you can find little pieces of rock to make a quarry,or fine sand to put in dump trucks and use some to color and use as a asphalt material,or tree branches that you can cut to make logs for pulpwood,to put in gondolas,and flat cars?

Well, since I'm still building my new 25' x 50' layout and adding track to it, so I haven't got into any scenery as of yet. But 10 years ago I used to do as you describe for my old layout. And for my club layout, we have other people doing scenery. I'm one of the few who can solder wires without burning myself [:)], so that's what I do for the layout.

QUOTE: For the "veterans" of this hobby,who is going to buy a RTR product,when for many, many years,they have been building kits.

Apparently, lots of them. Look at all the new products that are RTR. Somebody's buying them.

QUOTE: Why should they change their way of modeling to fullfill,something that is not going to fair well on their layout.

Why wouldn't they "fair well" on their layout? I don't get that one.

QUOTE: As for hobby shops..........alot of them are far and few,..............why?.........for one thing,products are too expensive,who wants to pay for stuff,when the cost has gone up to cover a percentage of it,that has to go to a railroad( Union Pacific ) for their licensing of that product.

You won't find me arguing in favor of licensing costs...that I'm totally against as we are getting screwed by corporate lawyers. Even so, at worst, it's another $5 on a $100 engine. As much as I detest this extra fee, it's not stopping too many people.

But as for prices being too high...just take a look. The prices can't be that high if the stuff is still selling. And that's what's happening.

QUOTE: Why are there then hobby shops selling Athearn and MDC kits at very cheap prices? Why are some hobbyshops discontinuing carrying the Athearn and MDC line on their shelves,and only "special ordering" them?

Mostly because they are offloading them because they can't sell them for anything close to MSRP. Or, they can't get a Horizon account, so they are no longer going to carry Athearn and MDC and are blowing them out to be rid of them.

QUOTE: Why should a hobbyshop buy mass quantities of MDC and Athearn products,when some may not even sell? Answer......Horizon signed a deal with the devil (Union Pacific).

I think what you are saying is that the licensing fee collected by UP is making hobby shops no longer carry Athearn/MDC products due to the price increase. There's only one problem with that theory...hobby shops stopped carrying mass quantities of Athearn long before UP started collecting cash from Athearn.

QUOTE: And you are so right Paul,the company (Horizon ) doesn't care about the hobby,they just want money.They don't care what they make,as long as a sucker will buy it for a great amount of money.

It's the American way.

QUOTE: Its interesting that you ONLY put down model railroad clubs in your area of the country.What about others in the Midwest,South,and the West coast?

How would I know what other clubs are using all over the country? I listed the clubs I knew personally, that I've actually been to.

QUOTE: Do you think that they are going to change their layout wiring to fit those that have DCC trains?

Yes, I do. DCC is that good.

QUOTE: You stated that I am wrong in what we as modelers want............REALLY!!?........who then makes the CNW Pioneer steam locomotive,who makes the Milwaukee Road Little Joe's, the Milwaukee Road electric box cabs,the centipeedes of the the E,J,&E,a SP U50C,and since when did the ATSF,SP,PRR,and the B&O have a DD40,that Athearn produced many years ago.

I have no idea what you are talking about, but I'm guessing that most of the above (except for the DD40's in bogus paint schemes) are avialable in brass, right?

QUOTE: As for the Walther's catalog,you show me in the past years of their catalogs,where Athearn had certain products outlined in blue,that were made years ago,and are still in production.

(shrug) Okay. I'll have to dig out my old Walthers catalogs at home, and maybe a few others at my club and I'll get back to you on that. It will take a few days...

QUOTE: Has the NMRA ever had a review or endorsed a Athearn product recently?

No, but then they never have to my knowledge. Only Bachmann sends their cars/locos into the NMRA for a C&I sticker. Who cares if the NMRA endorses it or not? As long as it's compatible with the rest of my stock, it doesn't matter to me.

QUOTE: I agree with AntonioFP45 and what he has said recently,and as for my comments,gee Paul when did you ever put up a post or written an article on how you have built something using your imagination,and hands to create a project that others can follow?

The largest thing I've done here is post my review/how-to article on the Branchline passenger coach kits which I still get comments on. It ran seven pages long, and was posted here, on Atlas, and on the New Haven Forum in addition to my club's newsletter. Does that count? I've also posted reviews of the Atlas NE-6 caboose, the Athearn 50' TOFC, the P1K RS-11, and others (mostly on the New Haven Forum).

QUOTE: At least I know that they ARE modelers, and enjoy the hobby.

I'm a modeler, and I, too, enjoy the hobby...

QUOTE: Your statement about why I am on the MR forum,let me tell you sonny boy,...

"Sonny boy"? Um, I'm only 5 years younger than you.

QUOTE: ...for 33 years of my life I have seen quite alot of changes and products come into this hobby,and as a member of the NMRA,CNWHS,Milwaukee Road,Soo Line,and the Santa Fe railroad historical societies,as well as volunteering my time to help out at train shows for these groups,I have talked with,helped and have given my knowledge of what I may have to them, to make their enjoyment of this hobby a more pleasant one,and make copies of articles that I have from my vast collection of 1960-present RMC 's, 1950-present Trains,1940-present Model Railroader,and other rail related magazines, and books to those who need and want such info. What have you done lately to help other modelers?

If you want to compare resumes... Since I only have a strong interest in the New Haven, I can't say that I've been a member of half a dozen groups. However, I have been a member of the NHRHTA since 1990, a member of my club since 1993 (and a junior member before that). I staff about 8 train shows a year in the Eastern Mass. area as a volunteer for the NHRHTA since 1991, selling from our dealer tables. I give tours of my home layout to boy scouts and cub scouts and anyone else who shows an interest. My father and I this winter gave a talk at our local library about model railroading using the "World's Greatest Hobby" campaign materials. On the New Haven side, I've made copies of company material for folks that request what I have, and I've been a regular poster on the New Haven Forum since it was on the original RR.net. I've been posting on the 'net since 1998 on rec.models.railroad, and I'd lurked there since 1996. On the manufacturing side, I was helpful pushing the New Haven Caboose decal set out the door at Microscale (take a look at the instruction sheet, my name's on it), I also was the one that got them to do the MBTA purple as a Trim Film, and I was the one that helped Athearn produce the New Haven 50' TOFC with NETCo. trailers (they sent me the pre-production model with upside down logos on the trailers...quite amusing, that). Anything else you'd like to know?

QUOTE: Paul3,I dont know you,as you dont know me, and thats fine,but the one thing that I have more of,is experience in this hobby than you seem to have.

Oh? I'll grant you 5 years, but I'm not some newbie.

QUOTE: Next time you are in a hobby shop,ask that person there what they have to do to make their customers come back,and what certain (if any) sacrifices they have had to do to stay in business,then maybe you can see what us "veterans" of this hobby have done lately.

I know all about small business folks and the sacrifices they make to stay in business...trust me. My folks have been running one since 1989.

QUOTE: If you want to run your trains on schedules,timetables,waybills,etc, thats great,so be it,but dont think that you know more than any of us...'cause you dont, and neither do we,nor I.

So nobody knows more than anybody else? Somehow, I think I may know a teensy-tiny bit more about the New Haven than you or most people on this forum (except for Rick Abramson, he's on here somewhere). [:)]

jesionowski wrote:

QUOTE: Paul, I was going to ask you if you got one of those NH SDP-40's Athearn made for your New Haven motive power

No, but I almost did. I did manage to get the ABBA set of F's and a Walthers E-60F before I figured out that not everything they make in HO scale is real. Boy, was I ticked.

4884bigboy wrote:

QUOTE: Paul, to answer your earliar question...

Wow. Man, the DL109 had more original owners than the most of these? Yikes.

AntonioFP45 wrote:

QUOTE: I'm being cool with you but Geez, did you understand my last response to you at all???????!!!!!!!!!!! This is becoming redundant. Good Goobly! This reminds me of our exchanges on that Penn Central thread!! You're sharp, but you seem to like to reply to threads as though you're playing chess. Move, Counter Move. Sorry......not interested. I come here to relax. Not argue............

Well, as they said on r.m.r...shift happens (as in, thread shift). [:)]

QUOTE: I never said that you can slap paint on an FP45 and pass it as an Amtrak SDP40f! Absolutely not! Don't you remember, Athearn did that back in 1975 or76! Yes, I was a teenager when it splashed onto the scene.

That's cool. But remember, we were talking F45/FP45's, and then suddenly you were throwing Amtrak and Metra units at me. (shrug) I'm just responding to what you posted.

QUOTE: Can you see the correlation I'm making?

I guess not. Like I said, we were talking F45/FP45, and from what I understood you to be saying, these would be more popular than I thought they'd be because Amtrak and Metra had cowl units. Was that not your point?

QUOTE: Now to the models: The basic point to my earlier mention of cowls is that just as Life Like (o.k, their Chinese manufacturer) took their GP9 mold and was able to create the GP18, so Athearn could have taken the FP45 mold years back and (yes, it would have still cost money) and modify it to produce an SDP40f or F40C, if they so wished back in the 1970s and 80s.

Well, for starters, they started with the GP18 and then made GP9's.

Secondly, if they were to simply modify the existing molds from the F45 to the F40C, that would forever prohibit them from ever re-releasing the older model. Why would they do that?

QUOTE: Modifying Molds and Dies is much cheaper $$ than creating one from the ground up!

I agree. However, it would prevent them from making the older model again.

QUOTE: I'm only guessing, but since Athearn was already profitable, it might have likely been no big deal to Mr. Athearn.

Totally agree.

Paul A. Cutler III
******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
******************

[davekelly]

Still would like to see a slightly modified blue box kit. Same kit, except with the Rail Power Product bodies. Yup, I know that is kinda like the new RTR GP35. But this would be a kit. Perhaps they could start with the SD45 and SD40. Same chassis, different bodies. I would assume that it would be a little bit more expensive than the old blue boxes, but would have a prototypical thin hood and a little better detailing. Would anyone be game to buy a few?

[AntonioFP45]

Paul3,

Man, this is not why I posted this thread......but oh well.......

I'm being cool with you but Geez, did you understand my last response to you at all???????!!!!!!!!!!! This is becoming redundant. Good Goobly! This reminds me of our exchanges on that Penn Central thread!! You're sharp, but you seem to like to reply to threads as though you're playing chess. Move--Counter Move---Move.............

Sorry......not interested. I come here to relax. Not argue............

Thanks for the links but........already seen 3 of them before! I have loads of EMD Cowl photos and info that I can fill up a book or this forum with! In fact, I need to save them to discs and free up some hard drive space!

I never said that you can slap paint on an FP45 and pass it as an Amtrak SDP40f! Absolutely not! Don't you remember, Athearn did that back in 1975 or 76! Yes, I was a teenager when it splashed onto the scene. Modelers were excited.

All I've done was correctly explain to you the differences BETWEEN THE PROTOTYPES! By the time EMD finished the mods, you had different locomotive bodies. Of course the END RESULTS were different! Just as by the time Pontiac finished modifying the Camaro, a new animal was born, the Firebird! But the 1968 Pontiac Firebird's foundation WAS STILL that 1966 Camaro! Any diehard hot rod fan will tell you that! Can you see the correlation I'm making? I assumed you already understood that.

I mentioned that EMD changed the stock FP45 body in creating the SDP40f and F40C. That's what the word "modified" means. Of course there were physical differences!

Now to the Athearn HO models:

The basic point to my earlier mention of cowls is that just as Life Like (o.k, their Chinese manufacturer) took their P2K GP7/GP9 mold and was able to create the GP18, so Athearn could have taken the FP45 mold years back and (yes, it would have still cost money) and modify it to produce an SDP40f or F40C, if they so wished back in the 1970s and 80s. I used to work with metal and plastics. Modifying Molds and Dies is much cheaper $$ than creating one from the ground up! Resin Kit makers are also able to do this as well. So "If" there had been an interest in the F40C or SDP40f, (and yes, I remember there was!) then Athearn would have had the advantage since they already had the molds/dies for the EMD 45 series Cowls.

But as was mentioned, Irv didn't want to spend money. Otherwise he could have easily created the DDA40X since he already had the GP35 body and F45 cab to do so if had chosen to! Instead Bachmann came out with the DDA40X. Though it was a poor runner, many UP modelers bought it, and of course modified it rather than go for the Athearn DD40, of which the prototype never existed! Yet, another example of where Athearn missed the boat. I'm only guessing, but since Athearn was already profitable, it might have likely been no big deal to Mr. Athearn.

Anyway Paul, I'm through kicking this horse around with you. Go ahead and reply with more chess style counter moves if you wish! I'll gladly reply to your posts on other threads, but I'm moving on and looking forward to reading the other responses here. Input has been great. Athearn e-mailed me back stating that they will be checking this thread! Now that's a compliment to all of us on this forum!

This thread is not about cowls, but about views and thoughts as to what Athearn's done, could have done, and should do IN OUR OPINIONS, to effectively compete with companies such as Life Like. Whether you agree or not, fact is that Life Like and other manufacturers have gained many customers that were once die hard Athearn customers such as myself and the friend I mentioned a couple of posts back.

I have no doubt that Athearn will stay in business. But currently not being in the Walther's catalog and continuing to produce "certain models" with noisy drives IS NOT going to help Athearn at all! Like I stated earlier, my friend who makes good money $, declared he's no longer buying Athearn locos! That's not good for Athearn.

However, based on the SD45T-2 there are good signs. Let's hope Athearn keeps moving forward!

Peace!.

[Anonymous]

Paul, to answer your earliar question:

FP45:
Santa Fe
Milwuakee Road

F45:
Santa Fe
Burlington Northern
Great Northern

SDP40F:
Amtrak
Santa Fe (rebuilt as SD40F-2)

F40C:
Milwuakee Road
METRA

The F40C was really a modified (and shortened) SDP40F body. The SDP40F had by far the largest steam generator of any EMD (nearly 5 feet longer than that of an FP45). The FP45 and F45s shared the same body, but the FP45 was 6 feet longer due to the steam generator.

So really, I suppose a manufacturer could get away with selling FP45/F45 bodys (F45 shorter of course) and SDP40F/F40C bodys (once again, F40C shorter) and using the same tooling for all 4.

Just a thought.

[Anonymous]

Paul, I was going to ask you if you got one of those NH SDP-40's Athearn made for your New Haven motive power[:D] It goes along with the B&O SDP-40 and DD-40 (never existed in that form) that Athearn made.

By the way we oldsters remember the 3 year wait for either the Trainmaster or SD-9 that was announced but never made for unknown reasons in the late 70's.

I still have a lot of the BB freight car kits, but I am constantly upgrading them with metal wheels and on the unbuilt kits I am replacing the cast on grabs with metal grabs. From a distance you would not notice they are Athearn.

Rick

[Paul3]

siberianmo wrote:

QUOTE: Barf! Simply that - barf! Suffocating for those who cannot afford the prices in order to get into the hobby. Suffocating for those who don't want high-end products - just some mainstream stuff, thank you very much. No wonder these folks turn to other manufacturers.

"Barf"? What does that have to do with "suffocating"? Or was that just an expression of disgust, or something? Whichever it is, that's a first for me, and I've been on the 'net for almost a decade...

For starters, this hobby isn't for everyone. At some point, you do have to spend actual money for something, even if it's just for couplers or paint.

Secondly, there have been high priced products in model railroading for over 100 years. That's never stopped anyone before from being a model railroader on a budget, so why should anyone feel "suffocated" now because someone makes stuff one can't afford? There's tons of stuff I really want, like the new brass New Haven R-3 4-8-2, but since it's $1500, I'm not getting one. Should I feel "suffocated" because I can't afford $1500 for an engine? I also want a whole trains' worth of $40 Walthers passenger cars, but I can't afford them either (I have Athearn's instead). Am I "suffocated"? I don't think I am. I don't have everything I want, but that's life...

QUOTE: It IS true insofar as the newcomers are concerned - all are not into "state of the art" - some simply want a train set ......

Which Athearn still makes, BTW.

QUOTE: the selection of roadnames for loco's and rolling stock is so reduced for moderately priced stuff - in comparison with the catalogs that fill my model RR bookshelves.

Reduced, certainly. But not eliminated.

QUOTE: Also - just try and find "one stop shopping" for Athearn blue boxes ... nearly impossible - either "backordered" or "out of stock" seems to be the common answer when net shopping.

Since when has everything that Athearn makes been available all at the same time? As I said earlier, it was impossible to find RDC's or 200ton cranes in 1990-1. Why should it be any different now?

QUOTE: So, it IS true - for ME - repeated for clarify: Not for me, thanx! I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself, and that of course includes you.

You said that Athearn decided to "chuck" the market for entry level model railroaders. If that was true, then they would no longer make any kits whatsoever or train sets. The fact that they still, in fact, make kits and train sets makes your statement untrue. I don't deny your opinion that Athearn is not for you. But don't say they decided to "chuck" the market when they haven't. When Athearn eliminates kits and train sets, then I'll side with you.

But just remember, Athearn's in this business to make money. Killing off a profitable product line does not make sense, any more than continuing to produce a money-losing product line does not make sense.

AntonioFP45 wrote:

QUOTE: Mechanically, the Amtrak SDP40f used an upgraded SD40-2 underframe and 16 cylinder powerplant. However, the body was FP45, hands down!

Um, no it wasn't. As you yourself stated, there were several modifications made between the FP45 and the SDP40F. I surfed the net and found these pics:

F40C:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_milw40.jpg

SDP40F (flat nose):
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_amtk632.jpg

F45:
http://archive.trainpix.com/BN/EMDORIG/F45/6605.HTM

FP45:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_sf97.jpg

Are they of a common heritage? Certainly. But no model manufacturer could get away with slapping Amtrak Phase I paint on a FP45 and actually sell it as a SDP40F. Well, ok, Athearn's done stuff like that, but they have done a lot of "foobie" paint schemes over the years (like the New Haven SDP40...[xx(] ) that today a hobbyist would turn his nose up at.

I'm sorry, but these locos, while they have simular traits, are not the same and would require all new tooling for each type if they were all to be made. Remember, I stated originally that I thought there wouldn't be widespread appeal for F45/FP45's because they are western locos. You're the one that brought up SDP40F's and F40C's to refute that...but they aren't the same locos by any means. They are simular, to be sure, but they aren't the same.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

Paul III,
First off,you state that you got serious into MR in the 1990's. I've been into model railroading since I was 3 years old.(birth year 1970) Secondly,have you worked in a hobby shop? I worked in several;4 in the state of California,2 in Wisconsin,and 1 in Minnesota.Now......I am an owner of a trucking and a road construction firm. This may not be a big deal to you,but could you manage a company,and listen to your customers,and what they want done,and have the product / structure work without any flaws,for many years? And then want you to come back to us more more business?As for the metal handrails,they didn't break,as the plactic ones will.Do you see plastic handrails on the real locomotives? If so,lets see a picture of it. Does the paint stay on the plastic handrails for a long time,or do you have to repaint them? As for the detail part companies.....do you think its fair that Athearn should put something on a product,that takes away a small,if not a huge profit out of a company that made that product first? Its nice that you model the NH,but how long did YOU have to wait for Athearn to make the locomotives you wanted,when you could have built them yourself ?As for the Schnabel cars with the "transformer" on them,you show me an ACTUAL photo of one of those on a train,and I'll show you several transformers on a CN freight,loaded on " depressed center " flat cars.These were the right way to transport them,as they had weight/height restrictions on them.Those straight flat cars were designed for hauling sheet steel in bulk quantity,not a transformer. As for the semi trucks,they were first produced in the late 1970's,at $5.00 a piece,a great deal for them,but now it isn't worth it.Years ago there was a company called Yatming. This company produced true and accurate1/87th scale trucks,ranging from the Kenworth aerodyne conventional,and aerodyne cab-over engine,the Ford 9000 cab-over, the Peterbilt 359 conventional,and the Mack Superliner conventional,all produced in the late 1970's to the early 1980's. I own 450 models of these trucks in my collection.All were painted and decorated by Yatming,and sold at different stores. You say Horizon has a on-line catalog...... whoopdee do!!! Who's going to look on the internet, if they are near a hobby shop,let alone some people who cant afford to have a computer? Why should model train companies care about the detail part companies?..........gee Paul,the company makes the spare part for a freight car/locomotive,which in turn will make the consumer go back to the hobby shop,and want to buy more of their product,further more,there are certain parts that some manufacturers will not make anymore,so in return a different company will make the product for the person who needs it. I'm wondering if you have had to buy a part 'cause Athearn doesn't make it no more.As for scratchbuilding,Yes i do it,and I'm proud of my results.When is the last time you went out into a field,a forest, a place where you can find little pieces of rock to make a quarry,or fine sand to put in dump trucks and use some to color and use as a asphalt material,or tree branches that you can cut to make logs for pulpwood,to put in gondolas,and flat cars? For the "veterans" of this hobby,who is going to buy a RTR product,when for many, many years,they have been building kits.Why should they change their way of modeling to fullfill,something that is not going to fair well on their layout. As for hobby shops..........alot of them are far and few,..............why?.........for one thing,products are too expensive,who wants to pay for stuff,when the cost has gone up to cover a percentage of it,that has to go to a railroad( Union Pacific ) for their licensing of that product. Why are there then hobby shops selling Athearn and MDC kits at very cheap prices? Why are some hobbyshops discontinuing carrying the Athearn and MDC line on their shelves,and only "special ordering" them? Why should a hobbyshop buy mass quantities of MDC and Athearn products,when some may not even sell? Answer......Horizon signed a deal with the devil (Union Pacific). And you are so right Paul,the company (Horizon ) doesn't care about the hobby,they just want money.They don't care what they make,as long as a sucker will buy it for a great amount of money. Its interesting that you ONLY put down model railroad clubs in your area of the country.What about others in the Midwest,South,and the West coast? Do you think that they are going to change their layout wiring to fit those that have DCC trains? You stated that I am wrong in what we as modelers want............REALLY!!?........who then makes the CNW Pioneer steam locomotive,who makes the Milwaukee Road Little Joe's, the Milwaukee Road electric box cabs,the centipeedes of the the E,J,&E,a SP U50C,and since when did the ATSF,SP,PRR,and the B&O have a DD40,that Athearn produced many years ago.As for the Walther's catalog,you show me in the past years of their catalogs,where Athearn had certain products outlined in blue,that were made years ago,and are still in production.Has the NMRA ever had a review or endorsed a Athearn product recently?I agree with AntonioFP45 and what he has said recently,and as for my comments,gee Paul when did you ever put up a post or written an article on how you have built something using your imagination,and hands to create a project that others can follow? I have many people who agree with what I have said,and i'm pretty happy about it.At least I know that they ARE modelers, and enjoy the hobby. Your statement about why I am on the MR forum,let me tell you sonny boy,for 33 years of my life I have seen quite alot of changes and products come into this hobby,and as a member of the NMRA,CNWHS,Milwaukee Road,Soo Line,and the Santa Fe railroad historical societies,as well as volunteering my time to help out at train shows for these groups,I have talked with,helped and have given my knowledge of what I may have to them, to make their enjoyment of this hobby a more pleasant one,and make copies of articles that I have from my vast collection of 1960-present RMC 's, 1950-present Trains,1940-present Model Railroader,and other rail related magazines, and books to those who need and want such info. What have you done lately to help other modelers? Paul3,I dont know you,as you dont know me, and thats fine,but the one thing that I have more of,is experience in this hobby than you seem to have. Next time you are in a hobby shop,ask that person there what they have to do to make their customers come back,and what certain (if any) sacrifices they have had to do to stay in business,then maybe you can see what us "veterans" of this hobby have done lately.If you want to run your trains on schedules,timetables,waybills,etc, thats great,so be it,but dont think that you know more than any of us...'cause you dont, and neither do we,nor I. We just know what we know,from our trials,errors,knowledge,and experience and are happy to pass useful info along to you.

[AntonioFP45]

Paul3

I read and understood your responses. Intelligent thoughts, though I still don't agree with some of them. But, that's the good thing about a high quality forum like this one.

BTW: Respectfully there is one point where you definetly are "off track". Regarding your last comment on the EMD Cowls.........

QUOTE: ....not even close

again, may not be your intent, but sounds smug and condescending. I did my research in the early 1990s.

Mechanically, the Amtrak SDP40f used an upgraded SD40-2 underframe and 16 cylinder powerplant. However, the "basic body design" though modified was FP45.

Just as Pontiac took the Chevy Camaro and easily turned it into a Firebird way back in the 60s, EMD took their Catalog FP45 body (which was actually an extended F45 with steam generator capacity) and modified it.

Four "easy to spot" modifications that stand out visually on the SDP's were:

(1) The updated grill work, (identical to the later released F40PH).
(2) The relocation of the side engine comparment doors-which were moved forward.
(3) The cab doors came with squared windows instead of rounded.
(4) The front porch, had no handrails and used skimpy ladders instead of steps.

Even the headlight housing retained the FP45 styling at first, until the 2nd batch of SDP40fs were delivered with flattened nose housings--(cheaper sheet metal costs.)

The Chicago Metra F40C. Again, an SD40-2 with an FP45 body, Similar situation, though with FAR MORE extensive body and mechanical modifications. 

Since they're now helping to haul frieight, more photos will likely appear on the prototype F40Cs.

Peace!

[siberianmo]

My first real HO layout featured the Pennsylvania RR, New York Central, New Haven and Boston & Maine, all located in a fictional place in the Massachusetts Berkshires ........ most of the rolling stock and loco's were from Athearn's blue boxes. Very affordable and to me, realistic in appearance. That collection began in the mid-60's when I was in my early 30's - just to give some perspective to all of this.

This discussion, started by AntonioFP45 (Dan) has taken on some interesting comments - some downright rude - others thought provoking - and yet others, just heartfelt responses to the originator's point of view.

I have some comments for one "Paul3":

QUOTE: From Siberianmo: This "high end" stuff is absolutely suffocating many of us in the hobby. Why do we let it happen? I guess the answer is quite simple - as long as there are more willing to pay the prices than not .........
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Suffocating"? What in the world are you talking about? How can the production of high quality models "suffocate" anyone? This hobby can be as expensive or as cheap as you want it to be.

Barf! Simply that - barf! Suffocating for those who cannot afford the prices in order to get into the hobby. Suffocating for those who don't want high-end products - just some mainstream stuff, thank you very much. No wonder these folks turn to other manufacturers.

QUOTE: From Siberianmo: I think the mark of opportunity missed by Athearn is that they just decided to "chuck" the market represented by entry level and maybe "moderate" income folks. High end? Not for me - thanx!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not true. If it was, why do they still, even today, make BB kits? Hmm?

Your attempt at a "slam dunk" fell way short of the rim ....... It IS true insofar as the newcomers are concerned - all are not into "state of the art" - some simply want a train set ...... the selection of roadnames for loco's and rolling stock is so reduced for moderately priced stuff - in comparison with the catalogs that fill my model RR bookshelves. Also - just try and find "one stop shopping" for Athearn blue boxes ... nearly impossible - either "backordered" or "out of stock" seems to be the common answer when net shopping. So, it IS true - for ME - repeated for clarify: Not for me, thanx! I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself, and that of course includes you.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3

Don Gibson wrote:

QUOTE: ... AND YOU HAVE HAD 0 DEFECT'S WITH (NEW) ATHEARN's?

No need to shout. I haven't bought any new Athearn power since they haven't made any New Haven engines in quite some time. I have no need for anything they've made of late... However, I am the chairman of the Mechanical Dept. of my RR club, and as such I help a lot of guys who have loco problems. In my experience, I have not seen a lot of problems with newer Athearns. Sure, there have been some problems (new 2-8-2's and 4-6-6-4's), but compared to BLI or P2K, it's hardly anything at all.

I have though.....I got two of the SD50s..after I had told myself I wasn't going to touch any RTR...both run smooth as silk and surprisingly quiet....much better than my P2K and on par with the Katos and Atlas. Maybe I got two QC A+'s but I'm happy.

Dan