Poor Athearn! I like them, but they keep missing the knocks of opportunity!

[AntonioFP45]

Hi Crew, Please don't turn this into a flame fest, but share your opinions. THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR ATHEARN BASHING!!

Hope you don't mind but these are my thoughts. Yet, I've heard others state similar views and wonder how you, my fellow modelers feel.

For years many of us, myself included purchased Athearn cars and locos. Tough and rugged, Blue Boxes still run on many layouts. However, since I was very loyal it saddened me that Athearn, as a company, has always seemed to be slow to act on opportunities as technology advanced and standards in model railroading were rising steadily.

For example: For years, Athearn produced the F7, SW9, GP9, SD9, SD45, Alco PA, and the GE U-Boats.

Then, Life Like, a company whose HO trains were "toys", explodes onto the scene with the Proto line.

Talk about smacking Athearn in the face!
Life Like-Proto produced nearly all of the same or similar units as Athearn, except with correctly scaled bodies, remarkable detailing, heavier weight, doors that opened, and realistic lighting! To add insult to injury, the drive was an Athearn clone!! This basically guaranteed, easy maintenance for most experienced Athearn owners. So simultaneously Proto units compete with the Athearn Genesis and Blue Box lines.

Even further, Life Like took advantage of their molds and tooling. Just like the prototypes, the P2K GP18 was easily transformed into the GP9, while the SD7 into the SD9. P2K will soon have a GE U-Boat on store shelves.

As a result, quite a few of the Athearn models have been discontinued. Look at Athearn's website. With few excepetions, Athearn BB locos are incredibly cheap on ebay. Those that pay too much for them haven't done their homework!

Top it off, rumors are floating that either Life Like or Kato are thinking of the F45 and FP45 within two years! Athearn, are you guys awake? Older units are still popular!

Am I the only one that wonders why didn't Athearn managers do this when they had the opprotunity, during the 90s?? They knew fully well of Kalmbach's marketing studies showing that modelers were becoming more demanding. IMHO, Athearn became complacent, just as GM did in the earty 1980s when they didn't view Japanese automakers as a real threat! Well, we saw what happened!

Was Athearn's managment leary of making the big financial investment that Life Like eventually made? Or was it that perhaps, Athearn could not afford it? Life Like did produce a wide variety of products and likely made decent profits. But then, Athearn cars and locos were selling like hot cakes, even during the 80s.

Athearn did introduce the Genesis line, but except for an F-unit, none of the above mentioned units were included.

Yes, there have been quality issues with some of the earlier P2k drives, but improvements were made and overall sales are still strong. Prices, in many cases, are lower than Athearn Genesis and RTR units. I've purchased new P2K units for the same price Blue Box locos are going for! And those P2K E units? Again, IMHO, an opportunity that should have been Athearn's.

Atlas and Kato are still better in quality, but I just find it so amazing that Life Like is a company that me and my friends, used to laugh at. LIfe Like, in a business sense, has taken Athearn's place on the category of "cheaper, affordable" HO locomotives.

I do hope Athearn will be around for the long run. They made the right step with the Amtrak California trains, and the SD45T-2 RTR unit. Though more expensive than many Protos, prices will likely come down. Hopefully the trend will continue.

[Anonymous]

Everything seemed to change when Irv Athearn passed away and new management took over. I assume Irv was resistant to changes, upgrades, new products, etc.

Hard to teach an old dog new tricks!

Bob Boudreau

[cwclark]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

Everything seemed to change when Irv Athearn passed away and new management took over. I assume Irv was resistant to changes, upgrades, new products, etc.

Hard to teach an old dog new tricks!

Bob Boudreau

I totally agree with this statement..once management sets the way they do business..it's hard for them to change the way they've always done it..if the company fights fresh ideas things will never change...Athearn still doesn't play by the rules when it comes to NMRA standards..and i'm still grinding away at the Athearn locomotive bodies to get Kadee couplers to mount properly with the coupler gauge....Chuck

[AntonioFP45]

Chuck,

Great point!

The Blue Boxes that I've elected to keep all need coupler mounting modifications in addition to re-motoring. Most of my Athearn freight cars also need to come up to meet the standards. This is why I stated before that I'm no longer buying Athearn BB freight cars. I will look at the newer RTR Athearn boxcars since they're supposedly closer to standard.

10-4!

[Anonymous]

I recently got their RTR AC4400-8CW and it is a sweet machine IMHO.

I think they will find a way to somehow survive in the MRR market - but they should NEVER have taken themselves out of the Walthers catalog . (BTW was that their decision or WKW's?)

[AntonioFP45]

Ken

I think that was part of the deal with the buyout from Horizon.

To this day I've never seen a Horzon catalog! I've have the Walthers 2005 Catalog! Wow! I'm really enjoying it!

Athearn not being in the Walther's catalog is actually their loss as many modelers are not familiar with Horizon. I'm sure this is not Athearn's fault as Horizon is now the boss and Walther's is their competitor.

But I do agree that Athearn (and MDC) will survive.

[brothaslide]

It would be interesting to know how many of the Athearn employees (especially in management) are model railroaders. I met the CEO for Athearn several years ago and I don't think he was a model railroader. I think if there were more model railroaders in Athearn Management, they would understand the market better and would be better able to respond to change. On the other hand, I think they are positioning themselves better in the market by offering the RTR line with DCC ready engines.

[Anonymous]

I agree. I really want to regard Athearn as the best budget buy, but in my view they're not - Proto units can be picked up for not much more than a BB kit, Walthers and Bachmann have some specific units that are as good a runner as the best Athearn BB locos (and are equally good bases for a project) but are a lot cheaper. They were heading in the right direction with the most recent batch of BB SD40-2s and SD40T-2s - they fitted single-piece driveshafts to these which really calm down the growling - I have one of each and both are as quiet and smooth as Proto units. The SD40-2 also had decent coupler mountings - a box that takes Kadee #28s as a straight drop-in fit. Having to hunt down weird and wonderful couplers becomes a real pain with BB units after a while, as does having to drill and tap coupler pockets to use anything other than E Z Mates (still not managed to get hold of a Kadee drill/tap set). The motors are also very variable in build quality - it's obviously possible to get hold of good can motors cheaply (witness Bachmann's GP40s - the motors on these are very smooth reliable units straight from the box), so why Athearn haven't followed this route is beyond me. If they were to fix the coupler mountings (even better, upgrade everything in the same way as the SD40-2 - full pilots and coupler boxes that slide in after the chassis is installed), put better motors in, and the one-piece driveshafts from the latest locos (I know the RTR GP60M has them, suspect the other RTRs do as well) they would have a winning product. They have a superb business/marketing asset in their history and the long-lasting running of their locos, and could easily offer locos with these improvements for much the same as they currently charge. Sad to say, unless a specific loco comes up that I'm after (short list - EMD Demo SD45 and maybe an FP45 or two) I'm unlikely to buy any more Athearn BBs. Compared to the prices you can find superior competitors for they just don't have the budget appeal now. My first Athearn loco was an SD9 that I paid £30 for - I can now get Proto units for just a little more in the same store.

[Anonymous]

As Lee Iacocca once said, "lead, follow or get out of the way". We don't know what management was thinking at Athearn before P2K and Bachman Spectrum hit the scene. The P2K (& P1K) got a good foot hold in the market by the time the Genesis line was introduced.

Antonio mentioned GM's failure to compete against Japanese automakers in the 80's. Look at automobile manufacturers today. Offering mostly high proformance, low fuel milage vehicles when gasoline is costing more per gallon as it ever was. But, unlike in the 80's, people still keep buying them. So what has changed? What did they learn from their marketing analysis? People will buy what they want regardless of cost or what they can actually afford.

Now that Athearn is a division of Horizon Hobbies all we can do is see what happens. So far it seems, by Horizon's actions, that the blue box and MDC Roundhouse kits are on the back burner and they're concentrating on new high end products and R-T-R models. Athearn not long ago added a N scale line and make some O scale stuff. That had to be a big investment. We don't know about their marketing plans for the future or how they interpet market research. We do know that they will only sell to brick & mortar stores, which will eliminate the demand for their products by people who sell at a discount. Could that lead to higher prices or discontinuation of a line that has fallen sales levels?

Yea, Athearn was the best bargin and a leader in HO scale trains, but now they have to work hard just to keep up with P2K and Broadway Limited. As long as $250 and up DCC and sound equiped locos are selling off the shelf faster than L.L. & B.L.I. can make them, Athearn will have to spend more of their resources on just keeping up.

[simon1966]

With Athearn being out of the Walthers catalog, and missing from the shelves of stores that either can't or won't deal with Horizon. With e-tailers, and train show retailers stopping selling Athearn items due to the Horizon demand for a "bricks and mortar" store, the volume of Athearn sales must be going down?

I have several BB loco's and a lot of BB rolling stock. Having said that, I have not purhased a new BB loco in 2 years. I much prefer to spend my money on P2K, BLI and Atlas. The BB rolling stock fits a need for my layout. I want easy to make inexpensive kits for my young sons to work with. Antonio is spot on. Athearn is not competing very well for my hard earned hobby dollar.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Antonio Athern need to step it up.Athern are still good to work on ,but for my money I would buy Life -Like P2K Loco's over Athern.I have a few LLP2K that run flawless.His comments are very good in regard to Athern bb Loco's.

[Don Gibson]

Opinion:

Athearn dominated the market with inexpensive , easy to assemble kit's that pretty much set prices for the rest of the industry. Quality was fair. Dimension's went by the board and all diesel's got same motor, drive, and wheels. He made large production run's that kept prices low and current production in stock.

Fast forward - past Atlas/Kato - to LL's P2000's entry.

With a better motor, dimension's, CV lighting, added detail, - and using Athearn's (Chinese made) drive - they ended up with a better looking an running product, at nearly the same price. What's not to like? - The Challenge of a 'shake-the- box kit?

Athearn's RTR and Genesis line is their answer to PROTO2000, however is plagued by continuing QUALITY control problems - their SD70'S still have the same problems - after 3 years.

To quote a Tom Hank's: character: Opening a current Athearn engine is like opening a box of choclate's. "One never know's what what you're going to get."

[twhite]

Not being into diesels, I can't contribute much to the Athearn/Kato/P2k discussion, but since I do own a lot of Athearn freight cars, I CAN say that I've always had to put washers between the trucks and the bolsters to get their cars up to proper coupler height--but I've always considered this a minor problem, since I like the quality of their kits for the money. However, not too long ago I bought a 6-pack of their RTR Rio Grande hopper cars, and I ended up having to file DOWN the bolsters, because the couplers were too high for my other NMRA standard freight equipment. I like Athearn, I've been building Athearn kits since they were metal with six-zillion parts back in the '50's (still have a bunch of the metal cars and I run them frequently), but I do wi***hey'd come to some sort of standard. I do have the Athearn Genesis Rio Grande Challenger, and I'm extremely satisfied with its performance. But evidently there seems to be a big series of gaps in their diesel quality. I really hope they can smooth out their problems, because I'd like to see the company around for a while to come.
Tom

[siberianmo]

Lots of good stuff in this thread ...... Have no intentions of "bashing" any contributors or Athearn (of old). Now, Athearn of today - that's another story.

This "high end" stuff is absolutely suffocating many of us in the hobby. Why do we let it happen? I guess the answer is quite simple - as long as there are more willing to pay the prices than not .........

I'm happy for lots of things in life and the fact that I've purchased just about everything I've ever really wanted for my HO hobby makes me a lucky guy. In perspective, my hobby is just that - a diversion from the everyday life ...... with whatever 'disposable' cash I had going in that direction.

The overwhelming majority of my Athearn "blue boxes" are on display within my wall mounted cases for "retired" rolling stock. When I look at them, it takes no time at all to recollect the happy memories they represent - the RDC's with those absolutely ridiculous rubber band drives - but they still brought enjoyment to me - mostly while they were in the static mode!

My new Can-Am HO railroad (mainly passenger) is represented by Con-Cor, Walthers Trainline, Rivarossi, IHC and LifeLike Proto 1000's (RDC's). They provided that degree of accuracy I wanted for the prices I could afford, plus they had the roadnames I model. Athearn just didn't keep up ....... or care.

I think the mark of opportunity missed by Athearn is that they just decided to "chuck" the market represented by entry level and maybe "moderate" income folks. High end? Not for me - thanx!

See ya![tup]

[davekelly]

Imagine if instead of doing RTR they would reissue the Blue Box using the RRP shells they acquired. Athearn seems to be doing this with its RTR GP35. How about a Blue Box SD45 with the RPP shell? This would allow a somewhat real world test of what sells better or makes more business sense.

[dharmon]

I think Athearn is moving in the right direction with it's latest releases, having come around, with change of ownership to addressing the desires of modellers and demands of competetion, that for years wasn't so much of a factor, as they conered the market.

Antonio...I think as far as Genesis goes, it was a way to start a new line to test the waters so to speak of how traditional Athearn modellers would react to upscale Athearn...which was a shock price wise to the Athearn crowd. They needed to bring out new products that didn't have competetion for the same units, while similtaneously not competing against their own products....F unit not withstanding..but there are so many Fs out there anyway.

The RPP shells are finding thier way into market, as the basis for the new tooling that has been going on. When they acquired RPP, they kept the molds and sold off the bulk of the inventory to PPW/A-Line. The fat boy BB locos are going to be a thing of the past, as better and as inexpensive models of the same units are being produced by competitors. So unless they have a RPP mold to base the same unit, such as the GP35 off of, it probably will go away. BB kits will be a case by case, secondary to the RTR and Genesis because that is what the market seems to want, but unfortunately prices are not going to be the old BB prices anymore. That doesn't neccessarily mean that they won't retool a FP45 in the future..that'd be great.....but only after they do an SDP40F and a GP40X (from the RPP tooling).

Don't get me wrong I love Athearn BB for durability and their "putty value"...that is being able to make just about anything you want from them. But I think that Athearn is changing for the better. I lament the eventual demise of the BB, and still comb the swap meets looking for BB bargains to build up, but their long term health is going to be better, more expensive RTR models.

Dan

[aloco]

The Life-Like SW9 is NOTHING like Athearn's SW7. The drive in the LIfe-Like GM switchers is closer to Kato than anything else, and the shell is by far more prototypical.

Athearn is now in the process of upgrading their line to compete with Life-Like and others. The SD40 series, F7 A&B units, and GP35 have all been retooled and look and run better than the old blue box units. The down side to all the upgrading is that the locomotives are not going to sell for blue box prices.

[Anonymous]

I just got one of the new Cotton Belt SD45T2's and its a work of art, smooth, quiet. Lots of great detail. Much better than the old tunnel motors on the BB era. I still love the BB locos and car and buy them at shows. The older units didnt have a bad motor, but miss balenced flywheels, sloppy driveline connections and poor electrical contact. I can get an older athearn to run nice a smooth with a set of timewell flywheels, NWSL drive shafts and taking the trucks apart and cleaning all the flash off of the gears with a hobby knife. The whole GP38,40,50,60-2 line was scale in hood width and just ready to detail, ran well and were very affordable, espicaly to a teenager short on money at that time. Now many years later I still prefer the old BB locomotives, you just cannot kill them. I hope horizon doesnt shoot themselves in the foot cutting off walthers and dealers that just go to shows. Shows and e-hobby shops are the current thing, the days of just the good old fashoned local hobby shop are unfortunatly over I think. Cheers Mike

[METRO]

You know a funny thing happened on my line this year...

I just finished replacing my Athearn RDCs with Life Likes that were compatible with my DCC, and knocking my re-worked Model Power RS-2s with Life Likes, and replacing my BB SD-9s with Life Likes and it hit me:

I now have more Life Likes than any other brand! When did this happen??

I'd always had a solid majority of Athearn products, almost all superdetailed BB kits. But I've been slowly replacing them over the years with better models. The first to go were my F7s replaced with the silky smooth Kato-driven Stewarts. Then my PA-1 was replaced with a Proto, and my U36C got relegated to back-up power by an Atlas model.

As I look at my workbench now, they are mostly the same prototypes, but there's a world of difference between an Athearn BB F7 and a Stewart/Kato model.

I agree Athearn dropped the ball, for one thing they had my brand loyalty and now, well I can honestly say the only Athearn anything I've bought reciently were the Bombardier Bi-Levels, not any locomotives.

I believe this trend can still be reversed, but the game is getting a bit more cut-throat then it has been before. Atlas, LL, BLI and Stewart all seem to be gunning for Athearn these days. Take a look at the current release schedule and you'll see what I'm talking about.

While I agree big blue isn't going anywhere for a while, it's anyones' game now, and they have to step up and play with the new big boys if they want to stay in it in a major role.

~METRO

[jsoderq]

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but some don't have a clue as to what is really happening in the market. While LL proto is pretty good stuff, the early sales were so bad that they flooded the market and had to cut WAY back on production runs which now results in stuff sometimes being hard to get. Why do you suppose Kato does so few American models - no it is not because they are a japanese company, it is because they understand the market and know exactly how much product the market can stand.Look at the fire sale from BLI because they made more than the market will bear and have cut back on their runs.
Athearn makes money which supports a staff of American employees as well as getting products made in the orient. Lifelike's staff is a handful of people (hence the "you can't get parts when the guy is in the orient").
Athearn has been around as a manufacturer for a very long time so they must be doing something right. I would bet that they sell more product than all other manufacturers combined. So- did they miss the mark (not making your favorite loco -unlike the DL-109) or have they just not made as many errors?

[AntonioFP45]

Guys,

Great input! I went ahead and actually e-mailed this thread to Athearn. I do hope that they read it and use the views expressed here to help in future decisions.

Metro,

You and I are in a similar situation. After reading your response, I started to realize that my fleet of Proto diesel units is growing quickly in size while I've actually shrunken my Athearn Blue Box locomotive fleet. The only BBs I've purchased in the past year were three FP45s. This was only because no one else makes decent versions of them in plastic......yet.

I also purchased another SCL U33B, but now a friend introduced me to a technique in which it's possible to take an Atlas SCL U36C, razor saw the body at the right point and turn it into a U33/U36B using a BLI or P2K chassis.

So now, as far as locomotives I'll be concentrating primarily on P2K as the Geeps and E units I want are made by them. For F7s, I'll go Stewart. I sold my BB F7s a few years back.

I had seriously considered buying a Genesis F unit. However that changed when my wife's cousin ran his brand new $100+ Genesis SD75M on his layout for me and it actually growled just as loudly as my Blue Box SD9. I said to myself, "Forget it! No more Athearn locos for me!"

But sincerely, I hope Athearn continues to improve their RTR and Genesis line as well as introduce new models. Hopefully Athearn will still listen to customer input.

[AntonioFP45]

Jsoderq,

No bubbles are being burst. It was acknowledged above that LL P2K "early units" had mechanical flaws. No doubt. No dispute that Athearn has produced some decent products over the past several decades.

The issue with so many of us, including me was that Athearn reached a "plateau" and stayed on it while LIfe Like shot past it and continued to climb. Again, didn't you notice that Life Like was making models similar in type to Athearn's BB line?

Did Athearn miss what mark? They made favorite locos for many of us, including me. Of course, some of those favorite locos were hood units, which by today's standards, are out of proportion housing a reliable but noisy mechanism.

One more point you make. Parts: It took me a couple of years before being able to get boxcar and reefer underframes from Athearn. As soon as LHS's got Athearn parts, they were cleaned out as Athearn was no longer producing large quantiies of parts as they had in the past. This, though was understandable. So far, I've had no problem obtaining parts from LIfe Like.

My point of this thread is that what Life LIke did with the P2K line Athearn should have done years back. Plain and simple.

Your statement: I bet that Athearn sells more product than other manufacturers combined". Did you get those from statistics? Last I checked two years back, Athearn sales had actually dropped.

But fortunately Athearn is by no means down and out. The SD45T-2 is proof of that. But Athearn is no longer on top of the food chain as far as sales of affordable locomotives. Life Like rapidly closed the gap.

But so far, no one here is Anti-Athearn. If anything most of us hope that Athearn continues to move forward as competition is great for the hobby...........and beneficial for us.

Peace!

[jrbernier]

All things said - the Athearn BB engines are still the best value as a starter engine. The thing that really turned off a lot of new modelers was the task of attaching those metal handrails! How many BB engines have you seen without handrails?
Athearn needs to catch up, and the Genesis line is a start. The RTR line of engines makes sense and is not as spendy. What I do not really understand is the RTR treatment of the BB freight car kits. The paint jobs are great, but they still are basic 50/60's BB cars with fat roof walks and cast on grabs. That said, I have bought 5-6 RTR cars over the past 2 years as I got them at a very good price(1/3rd to 1/2 off). Most of my cars are now medium to high end(Accurail, Kadee, P2K) with a lot of upgraded MDC/Walthers cars. But most of my engines are P2K(GP9/SD7), with some Kato/Genesis/Atlas/Walthers thrown in. I used to have a lot of BB engines, but I have upgraded starting about 1992 and sold off most of my fat body Athearn over the years.
As far as cost - I bought a Genesis F9A for about $75. Considering that it has a super drive, and great detail/paint, It really is a good value. I have an Undec Atlas FP7 and will have to replace the pilot, handrails, add detail and paint it. I already have $50 in it and will still have to paint it.

Jim

[Anonymous]

I think Athearn has actually inproved thier line.The SD50 was the best Athearn to date to me.All the current production blue box units have the newer shafts and motor.Very smooth running compared to a few years ago.I bought 3 sd40-2,a GP40-2 and a 38-2.Proto is equally nice.Genesis is nice but I think the MU hoses,cables,cut levers etc. should be included.All of the SD70 units I have run nice.Thier freight cars are ok but I prefer the Intermountain,LBF,Bowser and Atlas freight cars.Dan

[ericsp]

I have to disagree with Proto 1000, Proto 2000, Kato, or Atlas being comparable in price to the Athearn Blue Box locomotives. The cheapest of these (excluding Athearn) I saw on Walthers's website was $70 (RDCs), with some diesels (excluding sound equiped) up to about $150. Athearn's most expensive Blue Box so far has been about $60. I know, you will say they can be found on sale, so can new Athearns.

I did like the direction Athearn was going with its new SD40-2s and Pullman Standard 5344 cubic foot boxcar kits. Unfortunately, it appears that Athearn will not be producing any more new kits (just kits that have existed prior to the RTR and Genesis lines). When I have sent them e-mails asking about the kits they said they will offer them as long as there is demand. Unfortunately, they also said they have no plans to offer any of the new RTR stuff as kits.

It would have been interesting to see how Athearn would have done if they would have kept in the direction they were going in the SD40-2 and PS boxcar, espicially if they would have included grab irons with the locomotives and holes for the grab irons drilled part way through walls from the inside so that the modeller could choose to put the on or not.

Someone mentioned the higher end stuff suffocating the market. My biggest complaint with this is the underframe details. If the tracks are slightly below eye level, this is stuff that will not be seen, therefore I do not want to pay for that. Why not include interior detail on boxcars with doors that do not open? I wonder how long it will take until a company introduces a $75, HO scale boxcar with working plugs doors and how many people would buy it.

[Anonymous]

Having purchased Athearn locomotives and cars for almost 25 years, I think I can honestly say that if it were not for their quality, affordability, and selection, the hobby would not have advanced in the way it has. I'm almost certain that modeling for me would have ended with the Tyco Christmas trainset! Not many warbonnet C636's running around the ATSF, and that first Athearn SD40-2 was like the REAL THING! The sheer desire to have handrails on it, took the hobby to another level. Not only was running the trains fun, turning a BB kit into a reasonable model taught a 13yr old valuable skills. It was something that could be taken apart and put back together and still run the same as it did when purchased(if not better!). Today, almost every model loco on the market has some variation of the same Athearn mechanism around back then! For me the only "opportunity missed" is thinking what it would have been like without Athearn!

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Originally posted by ericsp

I have to disagree with Proto 1000, Proto 2000, Kato, or Atlas being comparable in price to the Athearn Blue Box locomotives. The cheapest of these (excluding Athearn) I saw on Walthers's website was $70 (RDCs), with some diesels (excluding sound equiped) up to about $150. Athearn's most expensive Blue Box so far has been about $60. I know, you will say they can be found on sale, so can new Athearns.


Hello EricSP,

Great comments, as always.

Just one thing........Don't go to the Walthers website for prices, unless you're just using them as a reference!

Plenty of LHS's, discount web dealers and even Ebay have Athearns, P1Ks and P2Ks at very good prices! P1K RDCs have been going for $20+ dollars! I just received in the mail a BRAND NEW P2K E7 for $30.57 (plus $10 for shipping) that I got on Ebay from Model Trains Stuff!! I got another new P2K E7 at a train show for $39 total. My LHS recently had a blow out sale on Athearn and Life Life locos 30% to 50% off. I also got a P2K Special Edition SD45 for $53!! This unit normally sells for $110.

Antonio, to be fair, I think that both you and EricSP are correct on this. I have also purchased P2K E7's for under $40 at train shows and off e-bay. However, I do not beleive that this was the intent of LifeLike. I get the impression that LifeLike over produced the E7's as well as the GP20/30's. These 3 models in particular seem to be readily available in many roadnames a couple of years after they were produced. More recent P2K offerings seem to be in much shorter supply and not subject to such heavy discounting. The intended retail price for P2K is quite a bit higher than Athearn. The fact is, that these deals do exist, and frankly there is no comparison between a P2K E7 and an Athearn F unit!!

Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum

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