Quick Question: What Era is this from: A discussion of layout design.

[SpaceMouse]

Picture no longer exists.

[mecovey]

Late 19th Century

[SpaceMouse]

You sure. I thought they were all 30 footers then.

[Leon Silverman]

I checked the internet under "Pullman Car History" and located a drawing of an 1884 Pullman car that was nearly 60 feet long between the couplers.

[dinwitty]

I would rate that car in use up to the early 1920s, no later.

[Anonymous]

I did a quick google search and found long passenger cars, similar to your model, in a photograph from the late 1860s. http://www.cprr.org/Museum/Unknowns/

Is there any information on who manufactured the model?

Update: It's a MDC Roundhouse model of a Pullman Palace Observation car. Walthers 04catalog says they "represent cars built from 1870s to the 1920s". I think they mean to say built 1870 and scraped sometime in the 1920s.

[twhite]

Spacemouse--it was freight cars that were mostly 30-footers in the 19th century. What you've got, since it is lettered for the Pullman company, would be in use from about 1870 on. It's perfect for your logging era (1880's). Go for it.
Tom [:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

1885-1890.

[MidlandPacific]

The windows argue 1870-1890; open-platform wooden cars remained in fairly widespread service into the teens, and in places, right up until the end of steam (The Boston and Maine used them on commuter trains into the 1950s).

The 30 foot coaches Roundhouse sells as "Overtons" were a comparative rarity: most wooden coaches were in the 50-70 foot range, although some were bigger. The prototypes for the Roundhouse coaches were a pair of short cars that were specially built for the Sierra Railroad to use on the Angels Camp branch. This one would go very nicely with the 1880s theme you've mentioned in previous posts.

Incidetally, you might want to take a look at John H. White's excellent "The American Railroad Passenger Car." Lots of good photos!

[Anonymous]

the roof structure indicates 1870's to 1890's before that, they were pretty much flat roofs, after that the design changed ro more streamlined.

[orsonroy]

The basic car shape can go as far back as about 1855, and can be used in revenue service to about 1965. The specific Pennsy paint scheme is from the late 1880s.

Look at the passenger cars at the B&O museum, or the Lincoln funeral car. Built between 1860-1863 (Lincoln's car was by Pullman), this sort of roofline was already the preferred favorite with many roads. I think by 1875 they'd be almost universal. While MOST of these cars would have been replaced by steel heavyweights by 1912 or so, many lasted to the end of WWII, either in revenue service on branches or in MOW service. Some lasted even longer, in Jim Crow service in the deep South. And while they'd be rarer than steam pulling freight today, there WERE a couple that were still hauling passengers on shortlines in the mid-1960s (these were generally the few shortlines that hadn't converted to diesels after 1960)

[howmus]

This is , as others have said, pre-USRA (world War 1 period). At least that would be my guess. From the USRA period on, you get the longer "Heavyweight" types similar to the new Walthers line only without the airconditioning and other retrofit stuff that the Walthers line has. Yours looks to be wooden? That alone dates the car as pre-USRA. It would be quite prototypical on a late 1800s layout like you have.

Have fun at least!! [:)]

[SpaceMouse]

Okay, if the Overtons were used in the Sierras and the Pullman's everywhere else. Would you think the Overtons are more prototypical to the CA coast range. I seems to me the pics I've seen were more Overton--but I haven't seen many.

I'm trying to picture my 2-6-0s or 4-4-0s pulling more than one or two of those Pulman's up a 2% helix.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Okay, if the Overtons were used in the Sierras and the Pullman's everywhere else. Would you think the Overtons are more prototypical to the CA coast range. I seems to me the pics I've seen were more Overton--but I haven't seen many.

When George (Pullman) just started out making Palace cars in Chicago, he must have bussy filling orders for the eastern railroads. Where were the Overtons built?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger

The 30 foot coaches Roundhouse sells as "Overtons" were a comparative rarity: most wooden coaches were in the 50-70 foot range, although some were bigger. The prototypes for the Roundhouse coaches were a pair of short cars that were specially built for the Sierra Railroad to use on the Angels Camp branch.

[MidlandPacific]

Missed all of this! "Overton" is the name Roundhouse uses for the shorty cars it used to advertise: the only prototypes that I know of in standard gauge are the combine and coach the Sierra used on its Angels Camp branch. "Overton" isn't a brand name in the sense that "Pullman" would be.

I would think they could be made to work in a pinch for a logging line, but they would probably be a bit small to be prototypical anywhere else.

[SpaceMouse]

I watched a "Have Gun Will Travel." the other day and they had one 30' coach being pulled by a 4-4-0 from San Fransisco to Sacramento. How can you beat that for historical accuracy?

[Anonymous]

Speaking of accuracy, you ever going to rerail that switcher in your tag? [:p]

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I watched a "Have Gun Will Travel." the other day and they had one 30' coach being pulled by a 4-4-0 from San Fransisco to Sacramento. How can you beat that for historical accuracy?

Never get your wife from mail-order, and NEVER get your history from the movies or TV...

There WERE a FEW 30-foot passenger cars, but they were VERY rare, and generally limited to the pre-1850 or post-1910 eras. The John Bull cars are basically stagecoaches, which are around 20 feet long. The ATSF, SP, CP and a few other roads had a FEW 30-40 foot long full baggage cars, but they looked nothing like the Overton cars, which are Sierra prototypes, as stated earlier.

Go with the Pullman cars. They don't really weigh much, and if you add metal wheelsets (the P2K 33" sets work great), your engines should be able to pull 2-3 cars up your grades without any problems.

[underworld]

Mine! [:p]

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

Never get your wife from mail-order, and NEVER get your history from the movies or TV...
.

[SpaceMouse]

Uh, it was a joke. The 1950's were horrible for historical accuracy. I watched a movie about the fight for the right to run rail in Kanas before the Civil War and the pistols were cartridge revolvers made after 1873 and rifles were repeaters made in 1892.

It was a joke.

[Anonymous]

MDC has turned out two styles of "old time" passenger cars: one is the 30-foot shorties, the other is a 50-footer. The model picutred is one of the 50-footers.

Although its been said that the so-called Overton cars (the 30-footers) are lossely based on cars operated by a small short line called the Sierra Railroad, I personally don't think either style represents any genuine, specific prototype unless by coincidence. As others have stated, the 30-footers are quite unrealistic. While a few very early (i.e. 1830s-40s) passenger cars were indeed that short, their appearance was very different. The 50-footers are all meant to be Pullman types and are more prototypically correct than the so-called Overtons; the early Pullman cars (1865) were indeed about 50 feet long, but the sparse records indicate they had monitor roofs. By the 1880s car lengths had increased, so 1865-1885 is probably the realistic limit for this car if you wi***o be historically accurate.

But hey - its your road, operate what you want.

[SpaceMouse]

I have an excrement load of Overtons, because a couple months ago I was advised here that they were what went with my olt-time 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s. I don't ahve any of the Pullman Type except a POS Bachman that I got when bought a bunch of EZ track.

So, What style passenger car should I look for. If it is like everyting else you going to show me a bunch of pictures that no-one has made for 20 years. (Do I sound frustrated?)

[Anonymous]

Yes, your photo looks like a 50' long "Overland" model, not the shorty "Overton."

Here's a link to a page with some model vs. prototype pass. car info that might be of some interest.

http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/protopass1.htm

Wayne

[SpaceMouse]

I have, I think, 12 of the "Overton", the 30 footer. What I am hearing is that I should have gotten the "Overland"--the 50 footer. The Pullman is not accurate either.

[Anonymous]

Not sure why you're worried about the Overtons. I think I've missed what prototype you're trying to be accurate about. Are you attempting to model a prototype line or a freelance? If your layout is set in 1890, the MDC Overtons, if anything are a bit later than that. The Sierra Railroad cars, which were the prototypes for the MDC models were built in 1902 though the style had been around since the mid-1800s.

I think you should reconsider why your railroad shouldn't be running shorties. They look great behind a 4-4-0 and cash strapped shortlines might reasonably be pulling them into the 1890's and, in the case of the Sierra RR, much later.

Wayne

[dehusman]

"Overtons" were actually only used on one branch of one railroad. Everybody else was using cars similar to the one you have posted the picture of.

If you take two Overton cars, cut one platform off and glue the two cars together you will get a car that has very typical lines.

Dave H.

[Jetrock]

The problem, SpaceMouse, is that there really weren't any passenger operations on the Northcoast in the 1880's to speak of. As I have mentioned a few times, the Northwestern Pacific didn't open up until around 1900, mostly there were a few small disconnected short lines. Most of the railroads were logging lines exclusively, which means the only "passenger operations" consisted of bringing logging crews to and from camp, and often they'd just sit on top of whatever load was being carried because those little lokeys only made about 5-10 MPH going flat-out.

Just use the Overtons--they are no more or less appropriate for what you're trying to model, and at least they're roughly appropriate to your era.

[SpaceMouse]

Jetrock,

The way I am envioning my layout, the logging operation is going visually significant, but in terms of the rest of the layout. I see the mainline disappearing under the logging operation and re-emerging in the city. The top layer will be modeled after the 101 corridor. You know, Hopland, Ukiah, Willits--so if passenger trains ran that way.... And the city I'm calling San Francisco, but I'm not set on that.

Once again, here is how I am seeing it. The top level is the blue lines.


If it won't enlarge click here: http://www.vitaconnect.com/Photos/Basement02.jpg