question about UP licensing

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

You people are coodinating your attacks on me and then comparoing notes on strategy. Want to know what I really think? NO- didn't think so but your lack of knowledge of political science is breathtaking. Railfans/model railroaders are the ONLY people outside the railroad industry who support the railroads in public debate. It is interesting to note how many issues the railroads are getting pounded on these days If UP wins this, thjey'll bring down another 1/100 cent per share to the bottom line. If they lose, they can regain the respect of the ONLY group of voters who don't mind the sound of a locomotive horn and if you don't think that is important, then maybe you should go to your local community college and take a Poli-Sci 101 course. and I'm sure that this hobby and its participants have made a BIG difference in seeing that railroad friendly public policy has been put into force. UP's arrogance, is endangering that. Of course, it is no coincidence that Cornelius Vanderbilt said "The public be ***ed" Maybe UP doesn't think it needs friends but if their greed wins out in court, they will see what it is like to go to public hearings where no one EVER speaks up for them. They might as well scrap their steam fleet at that point and save some money. Joe Sixpack thinks everything can go by truck. WE know better but will we care if UP stabs us in the back?

I am not attacking you, just disagreeing with out. If you perceived anything I said as an attack on you let me know.

If I read you correctly, you think that railfans are assets to railroads because they can change public opinion of railroads. Can we? I have been trying to think of a railroad friendly law that has been enacted because of railfans. So far I have not been about to think of any. Railfans come from just about the entire political spectrum. Therefore, no matter that the law is, it will not get 100% support from the railfan community. Only a railfan who puts trains before any other interest will support all possible pro-rail laws. Combine that with the fact there are not large numbers of railfans out there and I do not see railfans being a political force. They only hope is to get the public to appreciate trains more, outside of liking them the way we do. So far, it appears that if railfans have been doing that, we have failed.

[Anonymous]

That is why UP should consider a compromise position that I discussed in the other UP thread which will provide UP a way to educate buyers of train sets as well as model railroaders about today's UP as well as to deliver safety messages to model/toy train buyers.. Killing the model/toy train industry will do nothing to benefit UPs bottom line (AND MAKE NO MISTAKE, THIS WILL KILL IT). I am through with this discussion.

[Anonymous]

Well, if the Model Train industry dies, I have a good collection of products to last me. I hope the railroads have more support than just modellers. The only other model rr'ers I know are on this site, and I don't think many are in Michigan. I also believe that the UP has the right to take whatever legal actions they want to get what they want. Don't ba***he UP, ba***he people (us people???) that allow those laws to be passed and enforced. Why is it everyone is so happy to pay $50 for a $7 shirt that says NIKE (foreign employer of children), but they won't pay an extra nickel for a box car?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

You people are coordinating your attacks on me and then comparing notes on strategy. Want to know what I really think? NO- didn't think so but your lack of knowledge of political science is breathtaking.

Too funny. Model railroaders as political activists. Recently the assault weapons ban expired despite the support of nearly every law enforcement organization in the US, demonstrations and lobbying by officers, letters, phone calls & emails from many hundreds of thousands of citizens and a promise by President Bu***o sign an extension. Congress didn't even consider it.

I bring this up to point out the naive assertion that a few model railroaders will somehow pressure Congress to restrict a single company or industry from enjoying the rights to their legally held property since it may not appear to be in current commercial use. The sky is not falling. Data has not been offered to support anyone is killing the model train industry .

As to the assertion that people are coordinating to attack anyone, that also is too funny.

Wayne

[BRAKIE]

Hello wake up people! The railroads never did like railfans as they see us as trespassers and a liability.The general public sees us as immature adults playing with toy trains.
I just don't think a group of railfans or modelers have much say in railroad matters in the public or railroads eyes..

[bcammack]

Maybe we should model airliners instead. The airlines are economically viable, intelligent, well-managed organizations... [:)]

[dehusman]

Johnblair:
I doubt people are coordinating their responses to you (I know I haven't talked with anybody else). The cliche that comes to mind is, "If everything's coming your way, maybe you're in the wrong lane."

Since you are such a big supporter of railroads, please tell us what public hearing or town council meeting you have attended and publicly testified or spoke out on behalf of a railroad.
When was the last time you wrote your elected officials in support of some legislation that affected railroads?
How many Operation Lifesaver preseentations have you given?
How many presentations have you given to schools, scouts or civic groups on the history and role of railroads in America?
How many scouts hade you assisted in getting the Railroading merit badge?
How many tresspassers or vandals have you reported to the railroad or local police?
How many people have you encouraged or assisted in persuing a career in railroading?
What advocacy groups do you belong to?

Just telling your buddies you like trains and getting a warm fuzzy when you hear a whistle off in the distance isn't being a "supporter".

The reason railroaders won't convince UP to eliminate the logo licensing is because its not about railroads. Its about UP protecting its logos in the general public. If there were no railroads at all the UP would still be trademarking its logos.

Dave H.

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE
[brThe general public sees us as immature adults playing with toy trains.

Hey . . . I resemble that remark!!!!! [:D][:D][:D]

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by enduringexp

I also believe that the UP has the right to take whatever legal actions they want to get what they want. Don't ba***he UP, ba***he people (us people???) that allow those laws to be passed and enforced.

I thought lawyers wrote the laws, instigated suits, made sure that court awards are totally insanely high (I guess the lawyer on the other side agrees to this in advance) and kept all the money from them. You mean that everyday citizens actually are involved in the law making mechanism?

Seriously . . . .very interesting post.

[shawn-118]

So how is UP destroying this hobby? According to the Atlas web site a licensed UP or CSX C-630 loco is the same price as an unlicensed CN, CP or undecorated one. So if Atlas is making licensed UP's at the same price as unlicensed CN's where is that killing the hobby by making it unafforable for people?

Now Kato is charging $5.00 more for their UP licensed products according to their ads in MR. But when you look at the price it will cost you to take an undecorated loco and turn it into an UP it will cost you more than the $5.00 in decals, paint and time.

So I put it to you who is destroying this hobby, UP or the Manufactures that see this as a chance to raise prices and put the blame on some one else. If Atlas can make a licensed product at the same price as an unlicensed product why can't Kato? Who stands to make more from this UP or some of the manufactures?

[Anonymous]

You're the funny one. 5 million dues paying hobbyists called the National Rifle Association took on the law enforcement trade associations (not the street cops) and a relatively small number of hard core gun control advocates. The NRA also cost Al Gore the election in 2000. You made a VERY BAD choice of example. The gun lobby is actually an example of the raw political power of hobbyists. Now I need qxygen, I am so breathless .Take a Poli- Sci class. PL:EASE

QUOTE: Originally posted by Muddy Creek

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

You people are coordinating your attacks on me and then comparing notes on strategy. Want to know what I really think? NO- didn't think so but your lack of knowledge of political science is breathtaking.

Too funny. Model railroaders as political activists. Recently the assault weapons ban expired despite the support of nearly every law enforcement organization in the US, demonstrations and lobbying by officers, letters, phone calls & emails from many hundreds of thousands of citizens and a promise by President Bu***o sign an extension. Congress didn't even consider it.

I bring this up to point out the naive assertion that a few model railroaders will somehow pressure Congress to restrict a single company or industry from enjoying the rights to their legally held property since it may not appear to be in current commercial use. The sky is not falling. Data has not been offered to support anyone is killing the model train industry .

As to the assertion that people are coordinating to attack anyone, that also is too funny.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

On the contrary, I think I posed a very good example. I pointed out a real political issue with general public support and how that wasn't enough to go anywhere. I find it charming to think that you really believe you can capture enough public support somehow convince Congress to save model railroading from your perceived doom.

What law is it exactly that model railroaders are going to mobilize against? You mobilize the masses for the March on Washington. I'll buy coffee & donuts for both of you.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

http://www.gorail.org/

[Anonymous]

I can't help but notice that nowhere on that site is mention of lobbying for restricting trademark rights Neither does it take a stand against UP's licensing position. Model railroaders get not even a mention on the entire site. (Except in the Google ads.)

If a "grassroots organization" in support of a huge transportation industry can be considered a fringe special interest group, your anti-licensing group might not even show up as lint on the fringe.

It doesn't take a Political Science degree to see that you are overestimating your influence.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

What do you care. Oh, and by the way even you logging buffs who handlay your track need a healthy model railroad industry. if only to buy your Code 40 rail. Or do you use wooden "spool" track like the line which ran from Boonville to Old Forge eons ago? We shall see how this issue evolves because some manufacturers are already complying with **'s demands and they seem to be selling product. I hope that you are right. because ** really is best served by a healthy model railroad /railfan industry whether you care to admit it or not. However, I see a condescension in your whole tone since you do not see yourself as a mere model railroader because those guys play with trains that for the most part are pruchased by their end user either RTR or requiring only paint and details before being placed on the layout while the REAL artists eschew all of this to concentrate on obscure prototypes In other words you have the same contempt for 98% of the model railroad hobby that you perceive the general public does. OK, then why is it that when an NRHS chapter holds a public event, thousands of people from the non hobby general public attend? Fact is, other than a few self absorbed "foamers", the public DOES have a favorable impression of model railroaders/ railfans Even the powerful gun owner community doesn't have the good public reputation that we have. but they are ORGANIZED. Model railroaders aren't taking on "big brother" (whoever he is) like the NRA does, all we want is a little respect from the industry which PROFITS from our activities even without royalties. Come to the New York State Fair in late August/early September to see what the rail hobbies do for the rail industry as hundreds of thousands of fairgoers view the largest single group of exhitits by a single exhibitor at the whole Fair.

[Anonymous]

I'm sure there is a point somewhere in those ramblings but I don't think there is any need to search for it.

Signing off.

Wayne

[ericsp]

I have yet to see an example of a railroad company benefiting, politcally or financially, from model railroaders or railfans.

[bcammack]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

I have yet to see an example of a railroad company benefiting, politcally or financially, from model railroaders or railfans.

That's why "goodwill" is considered an intangible asset when valuating a business. It is considered an asset nonetheless.

[dehusman]

ericsp said:
"I have yet to see an example of a railroad company benefiting, politcally or financially, from railroaders or railfans."

You have to go back pre-Amtrak. When the railroads actually operated their own passenger trains, then the railroad industry was a form of advertising. People could buy services directly from the railroads (passenger tickets). The Santa Fe paying Lionel to paint its engines in a warbonnet was a shrewd move.

Once railroads divorced themselves from the passenger service, there was no service offered by the railroads that the average person would buy, so there was no need to advertise.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

Johnblair are you a hyprocrite ! You've done some good posts but the ones on this
topic sound like you could put UP out of buisiness. They have every right to protect
their trademark.

[bcammack]

I suppose you bleed Armour Yellow, now, don't you?

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bcammack

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

I have yet to see an example of a railroad company benefiting, politcally or financially, from model railroaders or railfans.

That's why "goodwill" is considered an intangible asset when valuating a business. It is considered an asset nonetheless.

I have no doubt most model railroaders and railfans have good will toward most railroads. But does the general public? It seems that if they do not come across railroads during their commute and do not live by tracks, they are probably oblivious to railroads. If either of the above it true, I doubt they have any goodwill toward railroads. Have we been able to change the perception of railroads or persuade a company to use rail? Is there something I am missing here?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mac 4884
They have every right to protect
their trademark.

Protect it from WHAT exactly?

In all the discussions of this topic over the past year, I've yet to see anyone demonstate in any real tangible way that UP is being harmed by Athearn making a model of a locomotives or freight car with UP markings on it.

The only thing UP is protecting is their ability to go through our pockets at the rate of 5 bucks an engine.

It's about one thing, and that's GREED gentlemen.

[Anonymous]

I have an ignorant question - does hot wheels pay the automakers a licensing fee for every hot wheels car, how about 'fallen flags' in the automotive world, does hot wheels pay GM is they model an Oldsmobile. I don't know, I'm asking out of ignorance.

Same question for the plastic modeling industry, are all those models licensed? Even the defunct brands (i.e. Delorean, etc)?

What about structures? Can the owner of a structure demand licensing fees for modeling their house or station?

Just wondering, I'm learning more than I ever wanted to about licensing, copywrites and trademarks.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: How about www.csxsucks.com ?

I couldn't get anywhere with this link, points to www.suck500.com which will be back 'next year' Do lawyers strike again ?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GrayLoess
The only thing UP is protecting is their ability to go through our pockets at the rate of 5 bucks an engine.

It's about one thing, and that's GREED gentlemen.

Probably stretching it bit to claim $5.00 per engine. UP's licensing agreement is for 3% of the wholesale price. That $5.00 would require a wholesale price of $166.00. Your retail or even discount price would be more than that. A Bachmann F7 at $60 retail would probably only include a royalty payment of perhaps a dollar.

QUOTE: Originally posted by plane_crazy

What about structures? Can the owner of a structure demand licensing fees for modeling their house or station?

Depends on who owns the rights to the design, not the structure. For some (non-railroad) kits I hope to market, I'm awaiting the terms from a copyright owner for licensing of their designs. I'll be tickled to death if it's only 3% of wholesale and I'll be glad to pay whatever it is if it means the ability to make the product. I'll be passing along the costs, of course and people can choose to buy or not. I suspect there would be little objection since few people have an axe to grind with the owner of the copyrights to start with.

Wayne

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Muddy Creek

QUOTE: Originally posted by plane_crazy

What about structures? Can the owner of a structure demand licensing fees for modeling their house or station?

Depends on who owns the rights to the design, not the structure. For some (non-railroad) kits I hope to market, I'm awaiting the terms from a copyright owner for licensing of their designs. I'll be tickled to death if it's only 3% of wholesale and I'll be glad to pay whatever it is if it means the ability to make the product. I'll be passing along the costs, of course and people can choose to buy or not. I suspect there would be little objection since few people have an axe to grind with the owner of the copyrights to start with.

Wayne

With respect to the UP situation, we probably should keep straight here that we are talking about trademarks not copyrights. While there are similarities, there are important differences. One of which is that copyrights expire, trademarks don't. Also, the underlying purposes are very different.

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER



With respect to the UP situation, we probably should keep straight here that we are talking about trademarks not copyrights. While there are similarities, there are important differences. One of which is that copyrights expire, trademarks don't. Also, the underlying purposes are very different.

Enjoy
Paul

True, Paul., there is a clear distinction. Licensing can include either or both. I am currently involved in obtaining licensing for both for my project.

Both involve clear and distinct ownership of property as well as the rights to protect it and profit from it, though. No amount of wishing otherwise makes a lick of difference.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Muddy Creek

Probably stretching it bit to claim $5.00 per engine. UP's licensing agreement is for 3% of the wholesale price. That $5.00 would require a wholesale price of $166.00.

Originally posted by plane_crazy

Well check Athearn's and Kato's prices, they are $5.00 higher for any roadname claimed under UP's trademark aggreement including CGW, DRGW, MP, WP, SP, MSTL, ART,
CNW etc. Probably the increase in price also covers the record keeping for UP's benefit.


Rick

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